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Wordpress.org Login: "I am not affiliated with WP Engine in any way"

212 points by notamy 2y ago

markx2 2y ago
People in the Make.WordPress Slack are being banned for asking about this.
- ValentineC 2y ago
  Threadreader link for anyone interested: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1843963052183433331.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1843963052183433331.html
explain 2y ago
Petulant.
Jcampuzano2 2y ago
This is just getting petty at this point. What kind of normal person or business operates this way - especially during an ongoing lawsuit. I can't see how anybody who knows a bit about the situation would ever want to continue to be affiliated with Wordpress knowing this guy could go over the top at any moment.
- 0xy 2y ago
  I have no dog in this race, but the behavior does seem ill-advised even if you look at it through a pure legal lens. WP Engine's lawyers must be having a field day with this stuff. Is he just totally ignoring his own lawyers? He has to be, because no lawyer who charges more than $20 an hour would tell him any of this is advisable.
  - TechRemarker 2y ago
    Yes, very odd, since the class name for that new checkbox is even, "login-lawsuit".
  - threatofrain 2y ago
    If I'm not mistaken both sides have hired some extremely prominent lawyers (Rachel Kassabian, Neal Katyal).
  - joshtynjala 2y ago
    He's appeared in several of related threads here on HN. He is always asked about his lawyers, and he repeatedly claims that they're cool with his behavior.
    - FireBeyond 2y ago
      > He is always asked about his lawyers, and he repeatedly claims that they're cool with his behavior. Even there he's inconsistent. He spent a day or so talking about how his lawyer said "If you're in the right, talk all you like!", then a few days after that made an announcement about how he'd retained a lawyer just that day.
    - legitster 2y ago
      Someone claiming to be his lawyer popped into one of the threads and then played dumb about a blog post he supposedly wrote. Hilariously bad look all around.
    - nchmy 2y ago
      That's obviously a lie. And one of his lawyers - the fool that he is - literally confirmed it earlier today in another thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41784343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41784343 "Despite our sometimes fervent wishes, lawyers don't control clients. We are not puppeteers"
      - everforward 2y ago
        I’m somewhat doubting that actually is his lawyer, though no one appears to be denying that it is. It just feels so very odd. Why would Matt’s lawyer care what people say here? He doesn’t have to convince of us anything. The PR folks would like to convince us of stuff and I wouldn’t be surprised if they showed up, but why legal? And what kind of lawyer says that about a client in an ongoing case on a public forum using an account in their own name?! It’s a level of unprofessionalism that I struggle to believe a reputable lawyer would engage in. If Matt is unreasonable to the point of needing to make a public comment, Neil should have just forced him to find new council and quit. I’ll likely never have need for this specific type of council, but if I do there’s a brand new list of people I won’t hire with only a single name on it.
uxx 2y ago
cold.
whalesalad 2y ago
This is top tier cringe from the automattic team.
bossyTeacher 2y ago
Hacker news is overloading the website. It now returns 429
- pacifika 2y ago
  Classic
alwa 2y ago
Is there really nobody in the Wordpress.org organization who can provide a check on this kind of behavior? Or do they really collectively share this Matt character’s attitude toward professionalism?
- cat_multiverse 2y ago
  Well, clearly there's someone who can provide a check box at least!
- pacifika 2y ago
  It’s his personal website
  - jeanlucas 2y ago
    Yeah, the WordPress foundation is just a façade to pay less taxes. If it were a true Foundation worried about its users Matt wouldn't do so much shit
- ValentineC 2y ago
  "Matt Mullenweg: 'WordPress.org just belongs to me'": https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/4/24262232/matt-mullenweg-wordpress-org-wp-engine https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/4/24262232/matt-mullenweg-w...
- throw16180339 2y ago
  Wordpress is free as in owned by Matt Mullenweg. He has control of the Wordpress foundation, owns wordpress.org, etc. There aren't any adults who can put a leash on him, although I wonder WTF Automattic's board of directors is doing.
gsanderson 2y ago
Wow that's petty.
proxysna 2y ago
Entertaining. Tripling down on a bad decision. Mans mad.
noirscape 2y ago
Ridiculously petty. I genuinely wonder how the fuck Matt and Automattics lawyers are gonna argue him out of this shit, because this is pretty much just giving free arguments to your opposition when it comes to arguing that Automattic is self-dealing.
- pluc 2y ago
  They've already made their argument: WordPress.org has nothing to do with WordPress, Automattic or the WordPress Foundation. It's owned and operated by Matt privately solely out of the kindness of his heart and his love for open-source.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    Who is paying the WP.org hosting bills? Is that coming from Matt? The Foundation? Automatic?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - lsaferite 2y ago
      Ignoring direct monetary costs, if WordPress.org is wholly owned by Matt (not Automattic) and he's directing Automattic resources to maintain the site, is that not some kind of violation of fiduciary duty to Automattic? He's using company resources to maintain a personal project.
SweetestRug 2y ago
This is incredibly troubling; I cannot see myself ever using Wordpress going forward. It is just too risky.
- err4nt 2y ago
  What's the risk? You own the code, and you aren't pre-committed to updating to any new versions in the future. You can just take it and use it on your own forever. Many people do. What's their risk?
  - ValentineC 2y ago
    > What's the risk? You own the code, and you aren't pre-committed to updating to any new versions in the future. This isn't a static website we're talking about — WordPress is probably one of the most attacked web software in the world given its footprint. WordPress doesn't do LTS releases or backports either.
    - Vuska 2y ago
      WordPress 3.7, which introduced automatic updates, received security backports all the way to 3.7.41. From 2013 to 2022. 4.1 and above are all still receiving them.
      - johnchristopher 2y ago
        Doesn't WordPress officially only support the two latest minor version release though ? I can't find an official source at the moment but a quick googling seems to confirm that.
        ValentineC 2y ago
        https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/supported-versions/ https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/supported-versio... > The only current officially supported version is the last major release of WordPress. Previous major releases before this may or may not get security updates as serious exploits are discovered. > … > Security updates will be backported to older releases when possible, but there are no guarantee and no timeframe for older releases. There are no fixed period of support nor Long Term Support (LTS) version such as Ubuntu’s. None of these are safe to use, except the latest series, which is actively maintained.
moomin 2y ago
What is going on here? I understand that open source companies have a free rider problem, and will naturally take steps to deal with that, but some of the recent activities seem… strange. I’m thinking part of the problem is that the software itself is GPL and so is it’s ecosystem, which means that the standard next step of changing the license (followed by an inevitable fork) is infeasible.
- unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  It's not that at all. Matt wants money to flow to his commercial entity, or if they donate developers to the project, he still gets to see everything about their books. It's an invasive agreement designed to give his commercial entity a competitive advantage.
  - danillonunes 2y ago
    I don't even think this is about money anymore. Matt may have started this cruzade for money, but at this point is just pettiness and refusal to backpedal.
  - oskarkk 2y ago
    And work of the WP Engine developers would be directed by Wordpress.org, which is just Matt, not the foundation. From https://automattic.com/2024/wp-engine-term-sheet.pdf https://automattic.com/2024/wp-engine-term-sheet.pdf: Fee. In exchange for the License Grant, WP Engine shall do one of the following: (a) Pay Automattic a royalty fee equal to 8% of its Gross Revenue on a monthly basis, within fifteen days of the end of each month. "Gross Revenue" means all revenue generated by WP Engine from the sale of its services, calculated without deductions for taxes, refunds, or other costs. WP Engine will also provide Automattic a detailed monthly report of its Gross Revenue within fifteen days of the close of each calendar month, including a product line breakdown of all revenues generated. Automattic will have full audit rights. (b) Commit 8% of its revenue in the form of salaries of WP Engine employees working on WordPress core features and functionality to be directed by WordPress.org. WP Engine will provide Automattic a detailed monthly report demonstrating its fulfillment of this commitment. WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking. (c) Some combination of the above two options.
benmmurphy 2y ago
Is it mandatory to check it to login? The default is unchecked. I doubt normal users would check it unless they are forced to.
- Zealotux 2y ago
  It is mandatory, and one of the CSS classes used is "login-lawsuit." Incredibly unprofessional, I would be mortified to push something like that into production.
JimDabell 2y ago
There’s a thread on X here with screenshots of the WordPress Slack, where Mullenweg seems deliberately vague when people ask him what counts as “affiliated in any way”. It seems like he wants to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about what can get you banned. People who have been asking him awkward questions in the Slack have started to get banned from there as well. https://x.com/javiercasares/status/1843963052183433331 https://x.com/javiercasares/status/1843963052183433331 This is shunning, which is literally one of the hallmarks of a cult. If you are associated in any way with a suppressive person (WP Engine), you now cannot be a member of the WordPress.org community. Members of the community have to decide whether to shun WP Engine or be excommunicated themselves. He’s trying to use the community as a weapon. It also seems a fertile ground to claim tortious interference. He’s trying to sever relationships between WP Engine and everybody they interact with.
- pluc 2y ago
  I mean he already made sure his entire company were entirely yes-men who agreed with his behaviour. It's not a stretch to say he'd like to do the same with the community, especially given his actions of basically begging WPEngine to create an alternate ecosystem he is removed from. Nuts.
- Throwawayhahzoh 2y ago
  Telling someone to "Please consult an attorney" when they ask if you can check the box if you pay for ACF Pro sure qualifies as inserting FUD into the ecosystem to my non-lawyer mind. https://x.com/JavierCasares/status/1843963074904227945 https://x.com/JavierCasares/status/1843963074904227945
- LordAtlas 2y ago
  He's not the only Wordpress contributor banned from Slack for asking questions about the checkbox: * https://x.com/xwolf/status/1842548019289338346 https://x.com/xwolf/status/1842548019289338346 * https://x.com/rmccue/status/1843967630585311595 https://x.com/rmccue/status/1843967630585311595 * https://x.com/jonoalderson/status/1843985559745921046 https://x.com/jonoalderson/status/1843985559745921046 * https://x.com/LinuxJedi/status/1843966957495939093 https://x.com/LinuxJedi/status/1843966957495939093 And from Javier's thread, Matt is gaslighting people by telling them to consult attorneys to decide the meaning of "affiliated" in a checkbox HE introduced. Is paying for WPEngine hosting "affiliated"? https://x.com/LucP/status/1843926970763227255 https://x.com/LucP/status/1843926970763227255 Can we now agree that Matt has lost his marbles and his ego is leading him to burn the entire Wordpress ecosystem down? These are megalomaniacal and dictatorial actions.
Kye 2y ago
Hitherto unexplored realms of petty.
unstyledcontent 2y ago
Wow, might be time to fork the project.
- joewils 2y ago
  https://www.classicpress.net https://www.classicpress.net
- jart 2y ago
  WPE is the most profitable business in the WordPress space, and they haven't changed a single line of code in WordPress or so much as contributed a dime. So if you're eager to volunteer to be their free labor, be my guest.
  - danielfoster 2y ago
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't Wordpress open source? WPE is under no obligation to contribute source code or money. If WP is unhappy with the outcome, they should have released their product under a different license.
    - jart 2y ago
      How would you feel about Google if they used things like Linux and never contributed anything to open source? As the most profitable entity in the WordPress space, WPE has a duty to give something back. What Matt is asking for isn't unreasonable.
      - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
        I would hope Google would help out, but I would also realize that it's ultimately their own choice if the license allows them to use it without donating time/money.
      - egil 2y ago
        When Google contribute to open source, they often do it to scratch their own itch. That's how most open source organizations works. What Automattic wants from WPE as laid outs in their term sheet is to dictate what WPE contributes and audit their accounting. Not exactly on the same playing field as other corporate contributions to open source projects. Not to mention the non-forking clause. Maybe setting up a proper independent governance of the WordPress project would encourage more independent contributions.
solarkraft 2y ago
Matt really wants to dig himself into a deeper and deeper hole, huh? There’s still something entertaining to this for sure, but it also hurts so much. Wordpress used to be a respectable project, Automattic a respectable company and Matt a respectable person. Maybe it was too good to last. The only way any of this (already serve) damage can somewhat be undone is Matt stepping back (as a sudden change of mind seems unlikely). Please don’t keep making it worse.
- throw16180339 2y ago
  > There’s still something entertaining to this for sure, but it also hurts so much. Wordpress used to be a respectable project, Automattic a respectable company and Matt a respectable person. Maybe it was too good to last. This was a mask off moment, but he's always been like this. He had a similar blow up in February when he harassed trans users on Tumblr (https://mashable.com/article/tumblr-transphobia-matt-mullenweg https://mashable.com/article/tumblr-transphobia-matt-mullenw...) (https://deadsimpletech.com/blog/told_you_so https://deadsimpletech.com/blog/told_you_so).
  - frowm 2y ago
    [dead]
Crosseye_Jack 2y ago
To see the requirement for the non-affilation goto https://login.wordpress.org/ https://login.wordpress.org/ EDIT (to save having a 2nd post). Looking at the HTML tags for the requirement it has the class "login-lawsuit", so guessing this is tried to the suit WPE are bringing against WordPress/Matt. On one hand, I personally feel like Matt is trying to speed run burning all the goodwill of the wordpress project, on the other hand if you are being sued by an entity its pretty much recommended to cut ties with said entity and only deal with them via your lawyers so I can see why they would put in such a requirement.
- interestica 2y ago
  A previous version of the login prompt included a link to the lawsuit and this might be a remnant from that initial work.
- unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  Generally the recommendation is to freeze current ties with said entity until the court case gets worked out. By aggressively targeting the employees of said other organization, you're risking it being used against you in the ongoing court cases. Regardless, .org and .com are claimed to be separate legal entities, so there is no lawsuit against .org. This is just an escalation out of a sense of moral righteousness.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - lolinder 2y ago
    .org is not the WordPress Foundation, it's just a domain that Matt personally owns and that is managed under the umbrella of Automattic. Yes, it's confusing.
DamnInteresting 2y ago
I've been using WordPress non-stop since 2005. I even hoped to someday work for Automattic. I applied and got through the initial process, but with a young child and a full-time job, I couldn't make time for the laborious "trial" part of the interview, so my application was put on indefinite pause. It pains me to watch this unfolding series of unforced errors. I hope WordPress survives.
csmattryder 2y ago
McCarthyism for the blogging generation.
Circlecrypto2 2y ago
This is pretty childish. But also, unfortunately, probably required by some legal team.
interestica 2y ago
I fully expect a WPE-backed fork before anything is in court.
- err4nt 2y ago
  They won't need to fork WP itself (though they're totally free to do that, WP started as a fork after all), but it sounds like they may need to quickly focus on creating their own plugin and theme marketplaces, and other services that WordPress.org provided to WordPress CMS users but is not denying to WPEngine. Let this be a lesson to all of us - if you rely on a service provided by another organization external to your organization, get an SLA! Get a contract that guarantees you the provision of services you depend on.
  - ValentineC 2y ago
    > if you rely on a service provided by another organization external to your organization, get an SLA! Get a contract that guarantees you the provision of services you depend on. Getting "takers" to pay for SLAs/licences is pretty much what Automattic or whoever's behind WordPress dot org wants.
    - lsaferite 2y ago
      The whole divergence of this kerfuffle into the resource usage of WPE hosted WP sites against the WP.org site is a distraction and an ex post facto justification. Matt got twisted when WPE wouldn't pay Automatic and is lashing out. If he wanted them to cover costs for WP.org, that would have been a totally different conversation. Even crying foul over WP.org costs is disingenuous though. It's not WPE consuming the resources, it's the sites they host for customers. It'd be like Matt demanding 8% of AWS revenue because so many sites are hosted by them and accessing WP.org resources. Simply collecting the hosting of multiple WP sites under one provider should in no way obligated the provider directly. Either it's a freely accessable resource for WP sites or it's not. It should not be subject to the whims of a single person and used as a tool in their personal crusade. Given that it's clear that WP.org is not actually a freely available resource, it's imperative that the WP codebase be adjusted to not use that resource anymore. As I've said in most of my posts on this, I'm not involved in the WP world and have no ties to any party to this debacle.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
gorkish 2y ago
what a bunch of freaking babies. very glad i never invested heavily in that ecosystem. how to get me never to recommend or use your software or services ever again, 101 get fucked, wordpress
- throwaway888abc 2y ago
  i would choose different words, but hell yes! all the years "open" source
stevenicr 2y ago
[flagged]
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  > I can see many reasons to deploy such a thing Care to share?
  - stevenicr 2y ago
    Could be advice from a legal counsel to limit access since they have filed a suit against you? I imagine if I had a company that asked someone to chip to help cover bandwidth and server resources, and they refused to pony up, I would say you are going to be limited in your access - and this would be another way to limit it. If someone setup a system to steal all youtube videos and republish them, would it be reasonable for Google to add a captcha and demand that they not use thier bandwidth or content in way they don't like? Would it be cool to have a login system similar if detected? This is more about access to a site and those servers than it is about being able to clone and use WP code imho.
oliwarner 2y ago
I'm generally behind open source companies wanting to stop commercial freeloaders, but putting this fight in front of your users seems unhinged. They need to take a step back. Again, I think they probably do have a trademark case, and they can set whatever rules they like for accessing their plugin repo, but this drama isn't something users appreciate.
CameronBanga 2y ago
For fun, I just tried to create an account and used WPEngine.com as my email domain. I got the following error: "You cannot use that email address to signup. There are problems with them blocking some emails from WordPress. Please use another email provider."
- tr3ntg 2y ago
  If this is the actual error message, it's written very poorly. Sounds like it was written by someone frustrated with the fact that they had to write it at all, and made it up on the spot.
iamronaldo 2y ago
I spoke to matt and he seemed nice enough to me so for me its weird to see such a radical stance from him on something like this
- lovethevoid 2y ago
  He sounds like a multi faceted person to me
  - bloppe 2y ago
    Everybody sounds insane when they let themselves get involved in internet flame wars.
  - throw16180339 2y ago
    He's the Elon Musk of PHP.
    - Ayesh 2y ago
      Similar to that post on WordPress.org, WordPress is not PHP.
- onehair 2y ago
  I'm sorry. His facial expressions and ways he answers questions paint a very shady picture when he talks on this topic.
  - nchmy 2y ago
    Nailed it - his body language is a) never normal and b) never agrees with what he's saying. He's trying to look innocent, folksy etc..., but he cant handle the dissonance.
akira2501 2y ago
> “WP Engine is free to offer their hacked up, bastardized simulacra of WordPress’s GPL code to their customers, and they can experience WordPress as WP Engine envisions it, That just reads like petty tyrantry to me. Stop me if I'm wrong here but isn't wordpress itself just some PHP on top of a database? The value that he's gatekeeping here is actually the contributions of _other open source developers_? Stop me if I'm wrong but isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?
- maebert 2y ago
  Technically, Facebook is just some PHP on top of a database :)
  - akira2501 2y ago
    Yep. And the value they have is _your data_. It'd be a similar situation if Zuckerberg was playing "fealty games" with who could and couldn't get an API key.
- jemmyw 2y ago
  By his logic, WordPress itself, being a fork, is bastardized version of the original.
sionisrecur 2y ago
I hope people take this chance to look elsewhere and stop using WP. Its code base is madness and people are only willing to work with it because some plugins keep it alive.
unsnap_biceps 2y ago
> Last week, Mullenweg announced that he’d given Automattic employees a buyout package, and 159 employees, or roughly 8.4 percent of staff, took the offer. “I feel much lighter,” he wrote. Wow, that's telling. 8.4% of his company decided he was acting in enough bad faith to quit without another job lined up in this economy? And he takes it as a good sign? Wow...
- viraptor 2y ago
  > 8.4% of his company decided he was acting in enough bad faith No, they just took the offer. Some probably for that reason, some for other. You'd need to interview them to know their actual views.
  - jemmyw 2y ago
    And I very much doubt the other 91.6% are onboard with his actions. People just need their income.
    - threeseed 2y ago
      Also if you are on a work visa you will be deported if you leave your job and don’t find anything in the couple of months after. Devastating if you’re a young family.
- reustle 2y ago
  I'm sure WP Engine will be happy to take them in.
- awoimbee 2y ago
  The offer was quite good honestly: people who left got a $30k buyout.
  - anon7000 2y ago
    At least — or six months salary, which is higher (and even substantially higher) than $30k for I’d guess most people leaving
itsdrewmiller 2y ago
Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41787409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41787409
- altairprime 2y ago
  Email the mods a link to your comment and they'll make it right; otherwise they may never see it.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41787409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41787409
AdamJacobMuller 2y ago
“WP Engine is free to offer their hacked up, bastardized simulacra of WordPress’s GPL code to their customers, and they can experience WordPress as WP Engine envisions it" Does anyone know what the context about this is? What did WP-Engine change which Matt disliked? As I understand they were disabling page revision history (but would enable it if you asked) and only because they had some other proprietary to wp-engine method of versioning and rollbacks but this seems like a massive overreaction to that.
- i_am_jl 2y ago
  WordPress doesn't like products/orgs that offer services related to WordPress using "WP" in their name to imply affiliation with WordPress. WordPress has recently updated their terms of use to reflect this. Matt is also on record criticizing WP Engine for never having donated to the WordPress Foundation. This is all coming to light after the breakdown of licensing negotiations between Automattic and WPEngine EDIT: https://www.therepository.email/mullenweg-threatens-corporate-takeover-of-wp-engine https://www.therepository.email/mullenweg-threatens-corporat...
  - unsnap_biceps 2y ago
    This is a bit of after the fact complaining. Matt invested in WPEngine for many years and it was a-okay then for them to use WP, and in fact WP's own terms said WP was a free to use term for everyone. That was only changed when the legal squabbles started. The main legal issues are around using "WordPress" and "WooCommerce"
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    > Matt is also on record criticizing WP Engine for never having donated to the WordPress Foundation. Donate, perhaps. Sponsor? The Foundation event where Matt "went nuclear" last month was sponsored by WP Engine to the tune of $75,000. And was one of many donations this year. (Adding insult to injury, the "independent" Foundation banned WP Engine from attending the event they were sponsoring... because they were in dispute with Automattic.)
vram22 2y ago
Looks like the word "denounce" is not used in the right sense here, at least based on what I know, and on a quick google, although it may have another meaning that matches what was intended by the writer of the article. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/denounce https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/denounce
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  Should be "renounce" presumably.
- weikju 2y ago
  Maybe the word should be : renounce? https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/renounce https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/renounce
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    Closer, but--since were already in nerdy nitpick mode here--"renounce" is like "quit" and suggests a distinct change of states. Many users will be technically incapable of "renouncing" WP Engine because they were never linked to it in the first place.
  - water-data-dude 2y ago
    I’m a fan of “repudiate”. It’s got heft to it, like an antique pocket watch.
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      It does have a nice gravitas to it, however I think "repudiating something" suggests a kind of vocal and intentional opposition, as opposed to allowing for a kind of disinterested neutrality. While Wordpress.org would probably like its visitors to oppose or criticize WP Engine, you don't have to do that to get past the logon page, being uninvolved is sufficient.
- Terr_ 2y ago
dylan604 2y ago
This whole bit of drama really makes me glad I never invested time/energy in WordPress. It's like Real Housewives of Computer Nerds level of whining, and feels just as fake. Regardless of right/wrong, the whole thing has just turned into a 80s made for TV type of situation. There was a much better way at handling this, but somebody had access to social media and the wheels promptly fell off.
- QQ00 2y ago
  but what's better alternative aside from rolling your own CMS?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    There really aren't one-to-one replacements for WordPress and the whole ecosystem that comes with it. I've actually been pretty happy with Pocketbase, though it really straddles the line of rolling your own CMS. You aren't technically writing the db wrapper or visual editor itself, but any functionality you need beyond authentication is up to you to build.
  - pembrook 2y ago
    There’s a million standalone CMS’s (headless) and standalone site builders (ranging from pure technical to no-code to no-design) and even sitebuilders with robust CMS’s attached these days (eg. Webflow). There’s zero reason to use Wordpress in 2024 imo.
    - doublerabbit 2y ago
      > There’s zero reason to use Wordpress IMO in 2024. Many folk, companies don't have the resources nor skillset to set up a LAMP equivalent for such. If you want to be the next wonder-host for $CMS be my guest. I recommend Kirby. No database required and only uses text files for its backend. https://getkirby.com/ https://getkirby.com/
bentocorp 2y ago
This is a great test to see if there is an actual WordPress open source contributor community beyond Automattic. If no viable fork of WordPress arises out of this drama then it just goes to show that it is actually a product fully controlled by Automattic and WordPress.com and everyone else involved is just spineless with no real power or contribution. When a single identity can dictate terms of an open source product with no genuine conversation or compromise, then it may as well be a closed source commercial product.
green-salt 2y ago
Decades ago Automattic was shopping around for webhosting space and talked to the company I worked at. I feel like I dodged a bullet long ago with this.
johnklos 2y ago
The title literally made me laugh out loud. What drama! What intrigue! Can't wait to see what happens next. Honestly, I have no horse in the race, so to speak. I think the people responsible for Wordpress code still suck because they still, in 2024, want the software itself to be able to write to where the software itself lives and runs, which is just bananas. It violates the first two rules of anything and everything on the web that I learned in the '90s: * do not allow writing to anywhere that's executable * do not allow execution anywhere that's writable
- rmbyrro 2y ago
  Yea, Wordpress has always been a nightmare... But it makes things so convenient and that's what most people care about.
  - linotype 2y ago
    Isn’t that a good thing to want though? Something easy to use if you only care about content?
    - anon7000 2y ago
      I mean does it matter if whether it’s a good thing to want? WordPress powers 40% of the web because it was convenient, powerful, and easy for someone with basic web skills to hack around with. The same things that people complain about today made it so popular! Besides, read-only file systems can be used to handle massive sites that need better security (like nasa.gov). And those types sites are either writing their own plugins or heavily auditing which plugins they use.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- lioeters 2y ago
  Indeed it's completely insane that any plugin can create a file in the site folder, and a public URL will execute it. And a site can have a dozen (or dozens in some cases) of plugins from various authors. It's a security nightmare, and I don't know of any (modern) language that allows such a situation other than PHP.
rKarpinski 2y ago
But why is this all blowing up now ? Private equity (SilverLake) bought WP Engine in 2018 and presumably the company has not been paying a trademark licensing fee far longer. [1] https://ma.tt/2024/09/wordpress-engine/ https://ma.tt/2024/09/wordpress-engine/
inlined 2y ago
Do you want antitrust investigations? Because this is how you get antitrust investigations. Wordpress is nearly half of the Internet. There’s a pretty compelling argument that Matt is using his market power to prevent competition in violation of the Sherman act.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Nearly half isn't enough to trigger antitrust. Especially because that nearly half is only mom and pop shops and not the ones doing the real big business. So I wouldn't be too worried about that.
  - inlined 2y ago
    Mom and pop are the consumers/victims here. And if 46% of all websites are WordPress, it’s probably likely that it has a monopoly on sites in its domain (e.g. blogging, commerce)
    - dylan604 2y ago
      But nobody cares about blogging. At least not of the population block that not about to die off. Stories/Reels/meh are where attention is at now. Commerce? If it's not Amazon, it's nothing. After that for mom&pop shops would be Shopify/Etsy/otherNotSmallSites. Maybe FB Marketplace, Insta/TikTok type sales too. I honestly would be surprised if mom&pops are getting much from their own websites in today's world.
      - mthoms 2y ago
        It's not just blogging. For example, the Whitehouse uses WordPress for its site. Nasa uses it on some of their sites as does the National Archives. On the commercial side you have The New Yorker, BBC America, Sony, Disney, Facebook and Bloomberg all using it in some capacity. There are many more of course, but that should give you an idea. So, while you're right - online publishing doesn't have popular mindshare - it is a massive part of the online economy. I'm not saying that qualifies WP for anti-trust investigation, but your underlying premise that WordPress is irrelevant is not congruent with reality.
sharkjacobs 2y ago
I can't speak to the merits or rightful grievances of Wordpress.org or Wordpress.com in this, but it is clear that Matt is fucking unhinged.
dylan604 2y ago
So what happens if you are not affiliated when you log in while also clicking the "remember me" option, but later become affiliated? Seems like there's a loophole available for those inclined in being subversive
- johnisgood 2y ago
  I would go further than that - does this checkbox serve any real function, or is it just dead code / no-op? Are there any repercussions for lying?
CatWChainsaw 2y ago
Turning everything into an ideological battle is so exhausting, why is crap like this still happening.
drivingmenuts 2y ago
[flagged]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
chuckadams 2y ago
Matt: "WP Engine doesn't contribute!" Also Matt: shuts off all ways for WPEngine to contribute
- johnisgood 2y ago
  Yeah, makes no sense to me.
edanm 2y ago
What. The. Hell. Just to get this straight. If you are in the business of creating websites for clients, and most of them are hosted on Wordpress.com, but a few are hosted on WPEngine, you are now forced to no longer use Wordpress.org and can't participate in the community? Our company website is hosted on WPEngine, and has been there for years because we don't really touch it much. I literally log in once a year or so. The idea that because of this, I am barred from logging in to Wordpress.org is offensive and disgusting. I really don't have much of a dog in this fight, I'm a lightweight customer of WPEngine but barely interact with it so don't care much. All I know is - I'll never, ever agree to work with Wordpress again.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  Can't you choose either way (check or not) without any repercussions? I would think that you do considering Matt's answer "I can't decide it for you [whether or not you are affiliated]".
  - Kye 2y ago
    Try it. "Please check this box if you want to proceed."
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      If you check it despite being affiliated, are there any potential complications that could arise?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
miragecraft 2y ago
I have no horse in this race, my site is powered by Kirby CMS due to my preference for simplicity and security. Wordpress seems like the dying Emperor in 40k where the daily sacrifice of thousands of psykers (developers) is the only thing sustaining its life. If this drama craters the developer base then Wordpress might collapse under its own weight.
honestAbe22 2y ago
[dead]
binary_slinger 2y ago
Is anyone working on a Wordpress clone? I've always hated the wordpress codebase and especially the react editor. I think a successful clone would be API equivalent so existing plugins can be used.
dazld 2y ago
Is this login mechanism also used for publishing plugin updates? Does that mean the plugins can no longer distribute security updates on the .org repository unless they declare no affiliation with WP Engine?
octacat 2y ago
Too much for calling "a software foundation". That behaviour is damaging for the whole open source community.

212 points by notamy 2y ago

markx2 2y ago

People in the Make.WordPress Slack are being banned for asking about this.

ValentineC 2y ago
Threadreader link for anyone interested: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1843963052183433331.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1843963052183433331.html

explain 2y ago

Petulant.

Jcampuzano2 2y ago

This is just getting petty at this point. What kind of normal person or business operates this way - especially during an ongoing lawsuit. I can't see how anybody who knows a bit about the situation would ever want to continue to be affiliated with Wordpress knowing this guy could go over the top at any moment.

0xy 2y ago
I have no dog in this race, but the behavior does seem ill-advised even if you look at it through a pure legal lens. WP Engine's lawyers must be having a field day with this stuff. Is he just totally ignoring his own lawyers? He has to be, because no lawyer who charges more than $20 an hour would tell him any of this is advisable.
- TechRemarker 2y ago
  Yes, very odd, since the class name for that new checkbox is even, "login-lawsuit".
- threatofrain 2y ago
  If I'm not mistaken both sides have hired some extremely prominent lawyers (Rachel Kassabian, Neal Katyal).
- joshtynjala 2y ago
  He's appeared in several of related threads here on HN. He is always asked about his lawyers, and he repeatedly claims that they're cool with his behavior.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    > He is always asked about his lawyers, and he repeatedly claims that they're cool with his behavior. Even there he's inconsistent. He spent a day or so talking about how his lawyer said "If you're in the right, talk all you like!", then a few days after that made an announcement about how he'd retained a lawyer just that day.
  - legitster 2y ago
    Someone claiming to be his lawyer popped into one of the threads and then played dumb about a blog post he supposedly wrote. Hilariously bad look all around.
  - nchmy 2y ago
    That's obviously a lie. And one of his lawyers - the fool that he is - literally confirmed it earlier today in another thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41784343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41784343 "Despite our sometimes fervent wishes, lawyers don't control clients. We are not puppeteers"
    - everforward 2y ago
      I’m somewhat doubting that actually is his lawyer, though no one appears to be denying that it is. It just feels so very odd. Why would Matt’s lawyer care what people say here? He doesn’t have to convince of us anything. The PR folks would like to convince us of stuff and I wouldn’t be surprised if they showed up, but why legal? And what kind of lawyer says that about a client in an ongoing case on a public forum using an account in their own name?! It’s a level of unprofessionalism that I struggle to believe a reputable lawyer would engage in. If Matt is unreasonable to the point of needing to make a public comment, Neil should have just forced him to find new council and quit. I’ll likely never have need for this specific type of council, but if I do there’s a brand new list of people I won’t hire with only a single name on it.

uxx 2y ago

cold.

whalesalad 2y ago

This is top tier cringe from the automattic team.

bossyTeacher 2y ago

Hacker news is overloading the website. It now returns 429

pacifika 2y ago
Classic

alwa 2y ago

Is there really nobody in the Wordpress.org organization who can provide a check on this kind of behavior? Or do they really collectively share this Matt character’s attitude toward professionalism?

cat_multiverse 2y ago
Well, clearly there's someone who can provide a check box at least!
pacifika 2y ago
It’s his personal website
- jeanlucas 2y ago
  Yeah, the WordPress foundation is just a façade to pay less taxes. If it were a true Foundation worried about its users Matt wouldn't do so much shit
ValentineC 2y ago
"Matt Mullenweg: 'WordPress.org just belongs to me'": https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/4/24262232/matt-mullenweg-wordpress-org-wp-engine https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/4/24262232/matt-mullenweg-w...
throw16180339 2y ago
Wordpress is free as in owned by Matt Mullenweg. He has control of the Wordpress foundation, owns wordpress.org, etc. There aren't any adults who can put a leash on him, although I wonder WTF Automattic's board of directors is doing.

gsanderson 2y ago

Wow that's petty.

proxysna 2y ago

Entertaining. Tripling down on a bad decision. Mans mad.

noirscape 2y ago

Ridiculously petty. I genuinely wonder how the fuck Matt and Automattics lawyers are gonna argue him out of this shit, because this is pretty much just giving free arguments to your opposition when it comes to arguing that Automattic is self-dealing.

pluc 2y ago
They've already made their argument: WordPress.org has nothing to do with WordPress, Automattic or the WordPress Foundation. It's owned and operated by Matt privately solely out of the kindness of his heart and his love for open-source.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  Who is paying the WP.org hosting bills? Is that coming from Matt? The Foundation? Automatic?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - lsaferite 2y ago
    Ignoring direct monetary costs, if WordPress.org is wholly owned by Matt (not Automattic) and he's directing Automattic resources to maintain the site, is that not some kind of violation of fiduciary duty to Automattic? He's using company resources to maintain a personal project.

SweetestRug 2y ago

This is incredibly troubling; I cannot see myself ever using Wordpress going forward. It is just too risky.

err4nt 2y ago
What's the risk? You own the code, and you aren't pre-committed to updating to any new versions in the future. You can just take it and use it on your own forever. Many people do. What's their risk?
- ValentineC 2y ago
  > What's the risk? You own the code, and you aren't pre-committed to updating to any new versions in the future. This isn't a static website we're talking about — WordPress is probably one of the most attacked web software in the world given its footprint. WordPress doesn't do LTS releases or backports either.
  - Vuska 2y ago
    WordPress 3.7, which introduced automatic updates, received security backports all the way to 3.7.41. From 2013 to 2022. 4.1 and above are all still receiving them.
    - johnchristopher 2y ago
      Doesn't WordPress officially only support the two latest minor version release though ? I can't find an official source at the moment but a quick googling seems to confirm that.
      - ValentineC 2y ago
        https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/supported-versions/ https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/supported-versio... > The only current officially supported version is the last major release of WordPress. Previous major releases before this may or may not get security updates as serious exploits are discovered. > … > Security updates will be backported to older releases when possible, but there are no guarantee and no timeframe for older releases. There are no fixed period of support nor Long Term Support (LTS) version such as Ubuntu’s. None of these are safe to use, except the latest series, which is actively maintained.

moomin 2y ago

What is going on here? I understand that open source companies have a free rider problem, and will naturally take steps to deal with that, but some of the recent activities seem… strange. I’m thinking part of the problem is that the software itself is GPL and so is it’s ecosystem, which means that the standard next step of changing the license (followed by an inevitable fork) is infeasible.

unsnap_biceps 2y ago
It's not that at all. Matt wants money to flow to his commercial entity, or if they donate developers to the project, he still gets to see everything about their books. It's an invasive agreement designed to give his commercial entity a competitive advantage.
- danillonunes 2y ago
  I don't even think this is about money anymore. Matt may have started this cruzade for money, but at this point is just pettiness and refusal to backpedal.
- oskarkk 2y ago
  And work of the WP Engine developers would be directed by Wordpress.org, which is just Matt, not the foundation. From https://automattic.com/2024/wp-engine-term-sheet.pdf https://automattic.com/2024/wp-engine-term-sheet.pdf: Fee. In exchange for the License Grant, WP Engine shall do one of the following: (a) Pay Automattic a royalty fee equal to 8% of its Gross Revenue on a monthly basis, within fifteen days of the end of each month. "Gross Revenue" means all revenue generated by WP Engine from the sale of its services, calculated without deductions for taxes, refunds, or other costs. WP Engine will also provide Automattic a detailed monthly report of its Gross Revenue within fifteen days of the close of each calendar month, including a product line breakdown of all revenues generated. Automattic will have full audit rights. (b) Commit 8% of its revenue in the form of salaries of WP Engine employees working on WordPress core features and functionality to be directed by WordPress.org. WP Engine will provide Automattic a detailed monthly report demonstrating its fulfillment of this commitment. WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking. (c) Some combination of the above two options.

benmmurphy 2y ago

Is it mandatory to check it to login? The default is unchecked. I doubt normal users would check it unless they are forced to.

Zealotux 2y ago
It is mandatory, and one of the CSS classes used is "login-lawsuit." Incredibly unprofessional, I would be mortified to push something like that into production.

JimDabell 2y ago

There’s a thread on X here with screenshots of the WordPress Slack, where Mullenweg seems deliberately vague when people ask him what counts as “affiliated in any way”. It seems like he wants to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt about what can get you banned. People who have been asking him awkward questions in the Slack have started to get banned from there as well. https://x.com/javiercasares/status/1843963052183433331 https://x.com/javiercasares/status/1843963052183433331 This is shunning, which is literally one of the hallmarks of a cult. If you are associated in any way with a suppressive person (WP Engine), you now cannot be a member of the WordPress.org community. Members of the community have to decide whether to shun WP Engine or be excommunicated themselves. He’s trying to use the community as a weapon. It also seems a fertile ground to claim tortious interference. He’s trying to sever relationships between WP Engine and everybody they interact with.

pluc 2y ago
I mean he already made sure his entire company were entirely yes-men who agreed with his behaviour. It's not a stretch to say he'd like to do the same with the community, especially given his actions of basically begging WPEngine to create an alternate ecosystem he is removed from. Nuts.
Throwawayhahzoh 2y ago
Telling someone to "Please consult an attorney" when they ask if you can check the box if you pay for ACF Pro sure qualifies as inserting FUD into the ecosystem to my non-lawyer mind. https://x.com/JavierCasares/status/1843963074904227945 https://x.com/JavierCasares/status/1843963074904227945
LordAtlas 2y ago
He's not the only Wordpress contributor banned from Slack for asking questions about the checkbox: * https://x.com/xwolf/status/1842548019289338346 https://x.com/xwolf/status/1842548019289338346 * https://x.com/rmccue/status/1843967630585311595 https://x.com/rmccue/status/1843967630585311595 * https://x.com/jonoalderson/status/1843985559745921046 https://x.com/jonoalderson/status/1843985559745921046 * https://x.com/LinuxJedi/status/1843966957495939093 https://x.com/LinuxJedi/status/1843966957495939093 And from Javier's thread, Matt is gaslighting people by telling them to consult attorneys to decide the meaning of "affiliated" in a checkbox HE introduced. Is paying for WPEngine hosting "affiliated"? https://x.com/LucP/status/1843926970763227255 https://x.com/LucP/status/1843926970763227255 Can we now agree that Matt has lost his marbles and his ego is leading him to burn the entire Wordpress ecosystem down? These are megalomaniacal and dictatorial actions.

Kye 2y ago

Hitherto unexplored realms of petty.

unstyledcontent 2y ago

Wow, might be time to fork the project.

joewils 2y ago
https://www.classicpress.net https://www.classicpress.net
jart 2y ago
WPE is the most profitable business in the WordPress space, and they haven't changed a single line of code in WordPress or so much as contributed a dime. So if you're eager to volunteer to be their free labor, be my guest.
- danielfoster 2y ago
  Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't Wordpress open source? WPE is under no obligation to contribute source code or money. If WP is unhappy with the outcome, they should have released their product under a different license.
  - jart 2y ago
    How would you feel about Google if they used things like Linux and never contributed anything to open source? As the most profitable entity in the WordPress space, WPE has a duty to give something back. What Matt is asking for isn't unreasonable.
    - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
      I would hope Google would help out, but I would also realize that it's ultimately their own choice if the license allows them to use it without donating time/money.
    - egil 2y ago
      When Google contribute to open source, they often do it to scratch their own itch. That's how most open source organizations works. What Automattic wants from WPE as laid outs in their term sheet is to dictate what WPE contributes and audit their accounting. Not exactly on the same playing field as other corporate contributions to open source projects. Not to mention the non-forking clause. Maybe setting up a proper independent governance of the WordPress project would encourage more independent contributions.

solarkraft 2y ago

Matt really wants to dig himself into a deeper and deeper hole, huh? There’s still something entertaining to this for sure, but it also hurts so much. Wordpress used to be a respectable project, Automattic a respectable company and Matt a respectable person. Maybe it was too good to last. The only way any of this (already serve) damage can somewhat be undone is Matt stepping back (as a sudden change of mind seems unlikely). Please don’t keep making it worse.

throw16180339 2y ago
> There’s still something entertaining to this for sure, but it also hurts so much. Wordpress used to be a respectable project, Automattic a respectable company and Matt a respectable person. Maybe it was too good to last. This was a mask off moment, but he's always been like this. He had a similar blow up in February when he harassed trans users on Tumblr (https://mashable.com/article/tumblr-transphobia-matt-mullenweg https://mashable.com/article/tumblr-transphobia-matt-mullenw...) (https://deadsimpletech.com/blog/told_you_so https://deadsimpletech.com/blog/told_you_so).
- frowm 2y ago
  [dead]

Crosseye_Jack 2y ago

To see the requirement for the non-affilation goto https://login.wordpress.org/ https://login.wordpress.org/ EDIT (to save having a 2nd post). Looking at the HTML tags for the requirement it has the class "login-lawsuit", so guessing this is tried to the suit WPE are bringing against WordPress/Matt. On one hand, I personally feel like Matt is trying to speed run burning all the goodwill of the wordpress project, on the other hand if you are being sued by an entity its pretty much recommended to cut ties with said entity and only deal with them via your lawyers so I can see why they would put in such a requirement.

interestica 2y ago
A previous version of the login prompt included a link to the lawsuit and this might be a remnant from that initial work.
unsnap_biceps 2y ago
Generally the recommendation is to freeze current ties with said entity until the court case gets worked out. By aggressively targeting the employees of said other organization, you're risking it being used against you in the ongoing court cases. Regardless, .org and .com are claimed to be separate legal entities, so there is no lawsuit against .org. This is just an escalation out of a sense of moral righteousness.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lolinder 2y ago
  .org is not the WordPress Foundation, it's just a domain that Matt personally owns and that is managed under the umbrella of Automattic. Yes, it's confusing.

DamnInteresting 2y ago

I've been using WordPress non-stop since 2005. I even hoped to someday work for Automattic. I applied and got through the initial process, but with a young child and a full-time job, I couldn't make time for the laborious "trial" part of the interview, so my application was put on indefinite pause. It pains me to watch this unfolding series of unforced errors. I hope WordPress survives.

csmattryder 2y ago

McCarthyism for the blogging generation.

Circlecrypto2 2y ago

This is pretty childish. But also, unfortunately, probably required by some legal team.

interestica 2y ago

I fully expect a WPE-backed fork before anything is in court.

err4nt 2y ago
They won't need to fork WP itself (though they're totally free to do that, WP started as a fork after all), but it sounds like they may need to quickly focus on creating their own plugin and theme marketplaces, and other services that WordPress.org provided to WordPress CMS users but is not denying to WPEngine. Let this be a lesson to all of us - if you rely on a service provided by another organization external to your organization, get an SLA! Get a contract that guarantees you the provision of services you depend on.
- ValentineC 2y ago
  > if you rely on a service provided by another organization external to your organization, get an SLA! Get a contract that guarantees you the provision of services you depend on. Getting "takers" to pay for SLAs/licences is pretty much what Automattic or whoever's behind WordPress dot org wants.
  - lsaferite 2y ago
    The whole divergence of this kerfuffle into the resource usage of WPE hosted WP sites against the WP.org site is a distraction and an ex post facto justification. Matt got twisted when WPE wouldn't pay Automatic and is lashing out. If he wanted them to cover costs for WP.org, that would have been a totally different conversation. Even crying foul over WP.org costs is disingenuous though. It's not WPE consuming the resources, it's the sites they host for customers. It'd be like Matt demanding 8% of AWS revenue because so many sites are hosted by them and accessing WP.org resources. Simply collecting the hosting of multiple WP sites under one provider should in no way obligated the provider directly. Either it's a freely accessable resource for WP sites or it's not. It should not be subject to the whims of a single person and used as a tool in their personal crusade. Given that it's clear that WP.org is not actually a freely available resource, it's imperative that the WP codebase be adjusted to not use that resource anymore. As I've said in most of my posts on this, I'm not involved in the WP world and have no ties to any party to this debacle.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

gorkish 2y ago

what a bunch of freaking babies. very glad i never invested heavily in that ecosystem. how to get me never to recommend or use your software or services ever again, 101 get fucked, wordpress

throwaway888abc 2y ago
i would choose different words, but hell yes! all the years "open" source

stevenicr 2y ago

[flagged]

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
> I can see many reasons to deploy such a thing Care to share?
- stevenicr 2y ago
  Could be advice from a legal counsel to limit access since they have filed a suit against you? I imagine if I had a company that asked someone to chip to help cover bandwidth and server resources, and they refused to pony up, I would say you are going to be limited in your access - and this would be another way to limit it. If someone setup a system to steal all youtube videos and republish them, would it be reasonable for Google to add a captcha and demand that they not use thier bandwidth or content in way they don't like? Would it be cool to have a login system similar if detected? This is more about access to a site and those servers than it is about being able to clone and use WP code imho.

oliwarner 2y ago

I'm generally behind open source companies wanting to stop commercial freeloaders, but putting this fight in front of your users seems unhinged. They need to take a step back. Again, I think they probably do have a trademark case, and they can set whatever rules they like for accessing their plugin repo, but this drama isn't something users appreciate.

CameronBanga 2y ago

For fun, I just tried to create an account and used WPEngine.com as my email domain. I got the following error: "You cannot use that email address to signup. There are problems with them blocking some emails from WordPress. Please use another email provider."

tr3ntg 2y ago
If this is the actual error message, it's written very poorly. Sounds like it was written by someone frustrated with the fact that they had to write it at all, and made it up on the spot.

iamronaldo 2y ago

I spoke to matt and he seemed nice enough to me so for me its weird to see such a radical stance from him on something like this

lovethevoid 2y ago
He sounds like a multi faceted person to me
- bloppe 2y ago
  Everybody sounds insane when they let themselves get involved in internet flame wars.
- throw16180339 2y ago
  He's the Elon Musk of PHP.
  - Ayesh 2y ago
    Similar to that post on WordPress.org, WordPress is not PHP.
onehair 2y ago
I'm sorry. His facial expressions and ways he answers questions paint a very shady picture when he talks on this topic.
- nchmy 2y ago
  Nailed it - his body language is a) never normal and b) never agrees with what he's saying. He's trying to look innocent, folksy etc..., but he cant handle the dissonance.

akira2501 2y ago

> “WP Engine is free to offer their hacked up, bastardized simulacra of WordPress’s GPL code to their customers, and they can experience WordPress as WP Engine envisions it, That just reads like petty tyrantry to me. Stop me if I'm wrong here but isn't wordpress itself just some PHP on top of a database? The value that he's gatekeeping here is actually the contributions of _other open source developers_? Stop me if I'm wrong but isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?

maebert 2y ago
Technically, Facebook is just some PHP on top of a database :)
- akira2501 2y ago
  Yep. And the value they have is _your data_. It'd be a similar situation if Zuckerberg was playing "fealty games" with who could and couldn't get an API key.
jemmyw 2y ago
By his logic, WordPress itself, being a fork, is bastardized version of the original.

sionisrecur 2y ago

I hope people take this chance to look elsewhere and stop using WP. Its code base is madness and people are only willing to work with it because some plugins keep it alive.

unsnap_biceps 2y ago

> Last week, Mullenweg announced that he’d given Automattic employees a buyout package, and 159 employees, or roughly 8.4 percent of staff, took the offer. “I feel much lighter,” he wrote. Wow, that's telling. 8.4% of his company decided he was acting in enough bad faith to quit without another job lined up in this economy? And he takes it as a good sign? Wow...

viraptor 2y ago
> 8.4% of his company decided he was acting in enough bad faith No, they just took the offer. Some probably for that reason, some for other. You'd need to interview them to know their actual views.
- jemmyw 2y ago
  And I very much doubt the other 91.6% are onboard with his actions. People just need their income.
  - threeseed 2y ago
    Also if you are on a work visa you will be deported if you leave your job and don’t find anything in the couple of months after. Devastating if you’re a young family.
reustle 2y ago
I'm sure WP Engine will be happy to take them in.
awoimbee 2y ago
The offer was quite good honestly: people who left got a $30k buyout.
- anon7000 2y ago
  At least — or six months salary, which is higher (and even substantially higher) than $30k for I’d guess most people leaving

itsdrewmiller 2y ago

Dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41787409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41787409

altairprime 2y ago
Email the mods a link to your comment and they'll make it right; otherwise they may never see it.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41787409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41787409

AdamJacobMuller 2y ago

“WP Engine is free to offer their hacked up, bastardized simulacra of WordPress’s GPL code to their customers, and they can experience WordPress as WP Engine envisions it" Does anyone know what the context about this is? What did WP-Engine change which Matt disliked? As I understand they were disabling page revision history (but would enable it if you asked) and only because they had some other proprietary to wp-engine method of versioning and rollbacks but this seems like a massive overreaction to that.

i_am_jl 2y ago
WordPress doesn't like products/orgs that offer services related to WordPress using "WP" in their name to imply affiliation with WordPress. WordPress has recently updated their terms of use to reflect this. Matt is also on record criticizing WP Engine for never having donated to the WordPress Foundation. This is all coming to light after the breakdown of licensing negotiations between Automattic and WPEngine EDIT: https://www.therepository.email/mullenweg-threatens-corporate-takeover-of-wp-engine https://www.therepository.email/mullenweg-threatens-corporat...
- unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  This is a bit of after the fact complaining. Matt invested in WPEngine for many years and it was a-okay then for them to use WP, and in fact WP's own terms said WP was a free to use term for everyone. That was only changed when the legal squabbles started. The main legal issues are around using "WordPress" and "WooCommerce"
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  > Matt is also on record criticizing WP Engine for never having donated to the WordPress Foundation. Donate, perhaps. Sponsor? The Foundation event where Matt "went nuclear" last month was sponsored by WP Engine to the tune of $75,000. And was one of many donations this year. (Adding insult to injury, the "independent" Foundation banned WP Engine from attending the event they were sponsoring... because they were in dispute with Automattic.)

vram22 2y ago

Looks like the word "denounce" is not used in the right sense here, at least based on what I know, and on a quick google, although it may have another meaning that matches what was intended by the writer of the article. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/denounce https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/denounce

baggy_trough 2y ago
Should be "renounce" presumably.
weikju 2y ago
Maybe the word should be : renounce? https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/renounce https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/renounce
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Closer, but--since were already in nerdy nitpick mode here--"renounce" is like "quit" and suggests a distinct change of states. Many users will be technically incapable of "renouncing" WP Engine because they were never linked to it in the first place.
- water-data-dude 2y ago
  I’m a fan of “repudiate”. It’s got heft to it, like an antique pocket watch.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    It does have a nice gravitas to it, however I think "repudiating something" suggests a kind of vocal and intentional opposition, as opposed to allowing for a kind of disinterested neutrality. While Wordpress.org would probably like its visitors to oppose or criticize WP Engine, you don't have to do that to get past the logon page, being uninvolved is sufficient.
Terr_ 2y ago

dylan604 2y ago

This whole bit of drama really makes me glad I never invested time/energy in WordPress. It's like Real Housewives of Computer Nerds level of whining, and feels just as fake. Regardless of right/wrong, the whole thing has just turned into a 80s made for TV type of situation. There was a much better way at handling this, but somebody had access to social media and the wheels promptly fell off.

QQ00 2y ago
but what's better alternative aside from rolling your own CMS?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- _heimdall 2y ago
  There really aren't one-to-one replacements for WordPress and the whole ecosystem that comes with it. I've actually been pretty happy with Pocketbase, though it really straddles the line of rolling your own CMS. You aren't technically writing the db wrapper or visual editor itself, but any functionality you need beyond authentication is up to you to build.
- pembrook 2y ago
  There’s a million standalone CMS’s (headless) and standalone site builders (ranging from pure technical to no-code to no-design) and even sitebuilders with robust CMS’s attached these days (eg. Webflow). There’s zero reason to use Wordpress in 2024 imo.
  - doublerabbit 2y ago
    > There’s zero reason to use Wordpress IMO in 2024. Many folk, companies don't have the resources nor skillset to set up a LAMP equivalent for such. If you want to be the next wonder-host for $CMS be my guest. I recommend Kirby. No database required and only uses text files for its backend. https://getkirby.com/ https://getkirby.com/

bentocorp 2y ago

This is a great test to see if there is an actual WordPress open source contributor community beyond Automattic. If no viable fork of WordPress arises out of this drama then it just goes to show that it is actually a product fully controlled by Automattic and WordPress.com and everyone else involved is just spineless with no real power or contribution. When a single identity can dictate terms of an open source product with no genuine conversation or compromise, then it may as well be a closed source commercial product.

green-salt 2y ago

Decades ago Automattic was shopping around for webhosting space and talked to the company I worked at. I feel like I dodged a bullet long ago with this.

johnklos 2y ago

The title literally made me laugh out loud. What drama! What intrigue! Can't wait to see what happens next. Honestly, I have no horse in the race, so to speak. I think the people responsible for Wordpress code still suck because they still, in 2024, want the software itself to be able to write to where the software itself lives and runs, which is just bananas. It violates the first two rules of anything and everything on the web that I learned in the '90s: * do not allow writing to anywhere that's executable * do not allow execution anywhere that's writable

rmbyrro 2y ago
Yea, Wordpress has always been a nightmare... But it makes things so convenient and that's what most people care about.
- linotype 2y ago
  Isn’t that a good thing to want though? Something easy to use if you only care about content?
  - anon7000 2y ago
    I mean does it matter if whether it’s a good thing to want? WordPress powers 40% of the web because it was convenient, powerful, and easy for someone with basic web skills to hack around with. The same things that people complain about today made it so popular! Besides, read-only file systems can be used to handle massive sites that need better security (like nasa.gov). And those types sites are either writing their own plugins or heavily auditing which plugins they use.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
lioeters 2y ago
Indeed it's completely insane that any plugin can create a file in the site folder, and a public URL will execute it. And a site can have a dozen (or dozens in some cases) of plugins from various authors. It's a security nightmare, and I don't know of any (modern) language that allows such a situation other than PHP.

rKarpinski 2y ago

But why is this all blowing up now ? Private equity (SilverLake) bought WP Engine in 2018 and presumably the company has not been paying a trademark licensing fee far longer. [1] https://ma.tt/2024/09/wordpress-engine/ https://ma.tt/2024/09/wordpress-engine/

inlined 2y ago

Do you want antitrust investigations? Because this is how you get antitrust investigations. Wordpress is nearly half of the Internet. There’s a pretty compelling argument that Matt is using his market power to prevent competition in violation of the Sherman act.

wkat4242 2y ago
Nearly half isn't enough to trigger antitrust. Especially because that nearly half is only mom and pop shops and not the ones doing the real big business. So I wouldn't be too worried about that.
- inlined 2y ago
  Mom and pop are the consumers/victims here. And if 46% of all websites are WordPress, it’s probably likely that it has a monopoly on sites in its domain (e.g. blogging, commerce)
  - dylan604 2y ago
    But nobody cares about blogging. At least not of the population block that not about to die off. Stories/Reels/meh are where attention is at now. Commerce? If it's not Amazon, it's nothing. After that for mom&pop shops would be Shopify/Etsy/otherNotSmallSites. Maybe FB Marketplace, Insta/TikTok type sales too. I honestly would be surprised if mom&pops are getting much from their own websites in today's world.
    - mthoms 2y ago
      It's not just blogging. For example, the Whitehouse uses WordPress for its site. Nasa uses it on some of their sites as does the National Archives. On the commercial side you have The New Yorker, BBC America, Sony, Disney, Facebook and Bloomberg all using it in some capacity. There are many more of course, but that should give you an idea. So, while you're right - online publishing doesn't have popular mindshare - it is a massive part of the online economy. I'm not saying that qualifies WP for anti-trust investigation, but your underlying premise that WordPress is irrelevant is not congruent with reality.

sharkjacobs 2y ago

I can't speak to the merits or rightful grievances of Wordpress.org or Wordpress.com in this, but it is clear that Matt is fucking unhinged.

dylan604 2y ago

So what happens if you are not affiliated when you log in while also clicking the "remember me" option, but later become affiliated? Seems like there's a loophole available for those inclined in being subversive

johnisgood 2y ago
I would go further than that - does this checkbox serve any real function, or is it just dead code / no-op? Are there any repercussions for lying?

CatWChainsaw 2y ago

Turning everything into an ideological battle is so exhausting, why is crap like this still happening.

drivingmenuts 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

chuckadams 2y ago

Matt: "WP Engine doesn't contribute!" Also Matt: shuts off all ways for WPEngine to contribute

johnisgood 2y ago
Yeah, makes no sense to me.

edanm 2y ago

What. The. Hell. Just to get this straight. If you are in the business of creating websites for clients, and most of them are hosted on Wordpress.com, but a few are hosted on WPEngine, you are now forced to no longer use Wordpress.org and can't participate in the community? Our company website is hosted on WPEngine, and has been there for years because we don't really touch it much. I literally log in once a year or so. The idea that because of this, I am barred from logging in to Wordpress.org is offensive and disgusting. I really don't have much of a dog in this fight, I'm a lightweight customer of WPEngine but barely interact with it so don't care much. All I know is - I'll never, ever agree to work with Wordpress again.

johnisgood 2y ago
Can't you choose either way (check or not) without any repercussions? I would think that you do considering Matt's answer "I can't decide it for you [whether or not you are affiliated]".
- Kye 2y ago
  Try it. "Please check this box if you want to proceed."
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    If you check it despite being affiliated, are there any potential complications that could arise?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

miragecraft 2y ago

I have no horse in this race, my site is powered by Kirby CMS due to my preference for simplicity and security. Wordpress seems like the dying Emperor in 40k where the daily sacrifice of thousands of psykers (developers) is the only thing sustaining its life. If this drama craters the developer base then Wordpress might collapse under its own weight.

honestAbe22 2y ago

[dead]

binary_slinger 2y ago

Is anyone working on a Wordpress clone? I've always hated the wordpress codebase and especially the react editor. I think a successful clone would be API equivalent so existing plugins can be used.

dazld 2y ago

Is this login mechanism also used for publishing plugin updates? Does that mean the plugins can no longer distribute security updates on the .org repository unless they declare no affiliation with WP Engine?

octacat 2y ago

Too much for calling "a software foundation". That behaviour is damaging for the whole open source community.