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I don't think the decline of minivans is because of "uncoolness"; I blame the US auto industry that doesn't want to sell anything but SUVs. Our family was shop
by jasperry 2y ago
I don't think the decline of minivans is because of "uncoolness"; I blame the US auto industry that doesn't want to sell anything but SUVs.
Our family was shopping last year for a new minivan to replace our aging Odyssey--our kids are bigger now, but we still go on trips together. We looked for Siennas and Odysseys, but nobody had a good selection in stock, and the newer models felt more cramped with worse visibility than the old ones. I felt that we were not being given the choices we wanted and were being herded toward SUVs.
- jacobolus 2y agoThere are also basically no wagons anymore. Apparently everything has to be a high-off-the-ground poor-visibility pedestrian murder machine to be profitable for the auto industry anymore. Fuel economy standards should be fixed so that vehicles with truck chassis are treated the same as cars, tax loopholes advantaging truck chassis should be closed, there should be much stricter legal requirements for driver view of nearby low objects, possibly urban areas should have special 10 mph lower speed limits for SUV-sized vehicles, and there should be much higher financial liability for pedestrian/cyclist injuries, possibly piercing through directly to manufacturers. Otherwise, car design has been a race to the bottom.
- iamthepieman 2y agoSubaru still makes them. I would buy something else since I hate the anti privacy of the company and cars but it's all I can easily get
- xattt 2y agoVolvo, MB, Audi and BMW continue to make them too.
- Kon-Peki 2y agoNot very well, though (and I don't think BMW sells wagons in the US anymore). They are positioned as "cool & snobby", rather than "useful". Peak wagon was the P3 Volvo V70/XC70, built on the Ford EUCD platform [1], which had amazing utility via tie-down rails, 40/20/40 fold-flat middle seats, and a front passenger seat that folded flat to create a uniform load floor for carrying 10 foot long boards. They were better at being useful than the Subaru Outback and yet had higher quality leather and carpets. And don't forget the vertical rear hatch, giving more interior space with a larger window (and larger rear wiper!) that gave them excellent rearward visibility. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EUCD_platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EUCD_platform
- sickofparadox 2y agoBMW does not sell a wagon in the US since 2019. My dad got the last generation they sold and its a joy to drive honestly.
- nytesky 2y agoThey don’t make any 3 row wagons right? Only lux like BMW and Mercedes do I think.
- jacobolus 2y agoVW has a new wagon, but it's only available in Europe, not the US.
- gruez 2y ago>Fuel economy standards should be fixed so that vehicles with truck chassis are treated the same as cars Subjecting big trucks to the same standards as small cars either makes the fuel standards pointless (as they cater to trucks), or outlaws trucks entirely, which is political suicide. People already pay extra for big trucks, which suggests it's something they intrinsically like, and will oppose efforts to ban them.
- spondylosaurus 2y agoYou're not wrong about how (either directly or indirectly) outlawing trucks would be political suicide, but man, that's a grim thing to think about. The fate of the world hangs in the balance of people whose top concerns include being able to drive monstrously huge cars.
- twiceaday 2y agoIf you want grim realize its the same with guns.
- grues-dinner 2y agoGuns is just the fate of the US, no other developed country has that problem. This obsession with SUVs and blobby crossovers affects everywhere.
- fakedang 2y agoTo add to that, in Europe I've seen a lot more folks now preferring SUVs because in an accident, many buyers approach it with an "it's better to be alive in your SUV, even if it was responsible for killing the small car passengers" mentality.
- grues-dinner 2y agoI think the problem is that everyone assumes an accident would be the other vehicle's fault, so they're buying protection against someone else hitting them. In that mindset's hypothetical, the small car is acceptable damage because the small car caused the accident. Again in that mindset, why would you volunteer to die in an accident you didn't cause? I'm not really sure what you can do to fix it, and anything you could do would be political suicide. I'd like to think if i were in charge, I'd have them banned for urban use by the end of the week, but I'd also be out of office by next Monday.
- xattt 2y agoAn EV station wagon would be amazing for range, utility and safety.
- schrectacular 2y agoPrius V! Hybrid, not fully EV, and they don't make them anymore.
- bzzzt 2y agoIn Europe, there's the MG5 EV station. Seems to be the only EV station wagon on the market here.
- uuddlrlrbaba 2y ago> There are also basically no wagons anymore. Apparently everything has to be a high-off-the-ground poor-visibility pedestrian murder machine to be profitable for the auto industry anymore. Honestly this just indicates that you haven't seriously driven a modern CUV. What you describe sounds like a 1990 suburban. CUVs wouldn't be so popular without being safe and easy to drive. Sure, I'm opposed to daily driving trucks and truck frame SUVs. But thats an important distinction. The popular cars in the US today are CUVs which are built on a car chassis and generally speaking have good visibility and safety features. They are essentially scaled up wagons with awd.
- dmd 2y agoThe Forester is basically perfect, IMO. (Though it would be more perfect as a hybrid.)
- otteromkram 2y agoFound the Coloradan!
- dmd 2y ago???
- DCH3416 2y agoSubaru at one point was the most popular automotive brand in Colorado.
- dmd 2y agoOK, but it's also one of the most common cars in the whole country, so it's just a weird statement.
- DiggyJohnson 2y agoThey were making a joke about how everyone in Colorado seems to drive a Forester. That's all.
- ToDougie 2y agoEvery time I see posts like this, I just know the poster has no concept of daily life in the interior of America. Trucks suck in urban environments, but then CAFE standards destroyed the small truck.
- squidgedcricket 2y ago> urban areas should have special 10 mph lower speed limits for SUV-sized vehicles This is such a good idea that I've never heard before. Are there any good blog posts ot whatever that explore it?
- yencabulator 2y agoHere's a precedent, UK limits heavier vehicle upper speeds: https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/advice/speed-limits/ https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/advice/speed-limits/
- hermitcrab 2y agoEven in the UK market everything is starting to look like an SUV or an SUV 'crossover'. 95%+ of UK drivers do not need a truck or SUV. But, if everyone else is buying pedestrian/bike killer tanks, there is a temptation to get one yourself. Just to stand a chance of surviving a head on with another tank. Definitely a race to the bottom. :0(
- zubiaur 2y agoTotally. Odyssey availability is a bit better now, but good luck getting a Sienna. We were in the market and ended up getting a 24 Ody exl. There are some discounted models here and there because of the 25 (very mild) refresh.
- jakedata 2y agoThe Grand Caravan (not the Pacifica) is an extremely sorted-out vehicle. I bought a 2019 which was supposed to be the last model year, but they had enough demand to continue manufacturing them in 2020. Ultimately it was uneconomical to bring them into compliance with current regs so that was the end of the line for them. It has exciting features such as physical buttons on the dash, remote start on the fob, a touchscreen only for the Garmin navigation system (no subscription needed) and seats that fold flat into the floor. The 3.6L Pentastar engine is a workhorse and it tows like crazy. Traction control and ABS perform as expected. City MPG is lackluster but on the highway it does very well.
- hoosieree 2y agoApparently they can haul 50+ sheets of 4x8 plywood with the door closed (and without removing the seats).
- seizethecheese 2y agoWhy would the industry want to do anything but sell as many units as possible? Having low inventory of minivans is consistent with people not wanting them, right?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rurp 2y agoThere are only so many manufacturers of a given vehicle segment. If they all soft collude to stick with higher margin vehicles there's not much consumers can do about it. Car manufacturing isn't a liquid market where new entrants can quickly jump in and undercut the incumbents.
- shiroiushi 2y agoIf minivans were popular, manufacturers would make and sell them. They're not colluding: if the minivans were really that popular, just one manufacturer would have to ignore them and build lots of minivans and take over the market. The simple fact is that they just aren't very popular, and consumers (at least the ones who buy brand-new) really want SUVs and pretty much nothing else. Stop whining about the manufacturers, and look at your idiot neighbors who are all choosing these monstrosities. (Also look at your crappy government, that your neighbors elected, that gives highly preferential treatment to SUVs with their "regulation".) The manufacturers are just giving people what they want; anything else would be leaving money on the table and losing to their competition.
- shiroiushi 2y agoAlso, to add to this: here in Japan, there's still lots of minivans. They're quite popular in more rural or suburban areas. SUVs aren't as popular as they are in America, probably because of their lack of real utility and terrible fuel economy and large size. (Yes, minivans are just as large, but they actually hold a lot of people or cargo.) So the manufacturers are happy to build them here because lots of people will buy them here, just not in the US. Also, we still have some models of station wagons here; those haven't been sold in America for many years now.
- arprocter 2y agoI'm not sure it's just the US We're renting a car in France soon for 4 adults and luggage - I assumed the venerable Espace would be the move, but the hire websites didn't offer them Looking at the wiki page, it now seems to have turned into an SUV...
- bigjimmyk3 2y agoI don't know -- we rented a car for 5 adults + luggage in FR a few years ago, and we wound up with a Citroen C3 Aircross[1]. "This is the biggest one we have" was the only answer we got, so we made it work. [edit: corrected a typo] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_C3_Aircross https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_C3_Aircross
- arprocter 2y agoI believe we ended up booking a 3008; although somehow the hire companies get away with cheekily putting '*or similar vehicle', so who knows
- QuarterReptile 2y agoI generally don't disagree about SUVs, but minivans adhere to the same regulatory scheme: they get their truck status by GVWR>6k lbs., as opposed to by high clearance and steep angles. I think your issue comes from fuel consumption standards (smaller greenhouse takes less AC) and the unstoppable proliferation of curtain airbags, which won't stop until A, B and C pillars of all vehicles are supplanted by The Pillar, with no windows or ability to see beside one's vehicle, save by cameras.
- hedvig23 2y agoExample that most markets are designed
- drcongo 2y agoFull-size MPVs (what we call a minivan) died out in the UK a long time ago, so long that when I needed one I had to import one from Japan (a Toyota Vellfire). Apart from the fuel consumption, I absolutely love it. I get jealous when I visit the states and see the size of the MPVs you have over there though. They seem to be making a small comeback in the UK recently though, with the Lexus LM (which is basically the same as my Vellfire) and Maxus Mifa 9, a Chinese EV, both being released here.
- potato3732842 2y ago> I blame the US auto industry that doesn't want to sell anything but SUVs. We all voted for the people who voted for... <repeat for several dozen layers> ...wrote the rules that incentivized the current dumb status quo into existence. The US auto industry is basically a case study in layers of unintended consequences.
- jordanb 2y agoYeah I saw a thing a little bit ago where "Odyssey" was one of the most popular vehicles for people when they originally start a search for a new car, but then by the time they get to a purchase they end up with an SUV. Modern SUVs and Minivans are converging on something that's not really as good as either. A minivan was a box on four wheels maximizing internal space. An SUV sacrificed that for better towing, maybe offroading. Nowadays they're making minivans with no internal space and SUVs that can't tow or offroad.
- etempleton 2y agoLast year auto companies were still recovering from the pandemic and supplies were limited. If everyone wanted to buy a minivan the auto makers would make more minivans. They like money. I actually think it really is because it is uncool. A whole generation of kids growing up spent too much time in the back of a minivan and now refuse to ever subject someone else to that. Minivans of the 90s were pretty bad (most vehicles in the 90s were). Your mom drove a minivan. Your mom's minivan smelled bad, the air didn't work well, it rode poorly making you sick. The minivans of the 90s were incredibly practical and incredibly bad at the same time.
- maxsilver 2y agoPart of the issue is that Minivans are really expensive, and parents with lots of kids tend to not have as much money as childless adults. for Cars and SUVs: - A Chevy Equinox starts at $28k MSRP. - A Toyota RAV4 starts at $29k MSRP. - A Toyota Prius (PHEV) starts at $33k MSRP. but for minivans: - A Honda Odyssey (gas only) starts at $42k MSRP. - A Chrysler Pacifica (PHEV) starts at $51k MSRP. Minivans are actually really popular for families in the midwest, for folks who can afford it. If you can't, the option becomes "Get a Minivan, or get an SUV and save $15,000 USD", which obviously skews a lot of families towards the SUV. So shoving two or three kids in the back of a cheap SUV is pretty normal, event though it's less convenient in a lot of other ways.
- darrylb42 2y agoIf you have more than 2 kids the minivan is the clear winner. A two row SUV can't hold 3 car seats, and even a 3 row SUV will have trouble, plus strapping kids in is way harder.
- nytesky 2y agoYou absolutely can put 3 car seats in two rows. Check out Diono car seats for example.
- uticus 2y agoActually SUVs often have more width interior side-to-side in bench setups, making it possible to put in 3 child car seats side-by-side (child seats are often very wide, full width of seat and wider than topical adult hip width). Minivans have less, especially in back row where wheel wells are more more likely to be involved since the minivan doesn’t sit as high as an SUV.
- reginald78 2y agoYes, when I looked at minivans it seemed like the concept had lost its way. When they were popular in the 1980-90s it seemed they were bare bones and fairly affordable, and certainly the best way to cheaply move a lot of people. They'd turned into heavily featured family vehicles by the time I was shopping in the 2010s and their prices were so high I never even test drove one. The same sort of thing happened to trucks which turned into giant impractical luxury vehicles. I think with trucks it is worse though because minivans are actually sleeper cargo haulers where as a lot of trucks its pretend or for show.