35 ms·

I don't see this as a smart move (let alone strategy) in any time frame. As a third-party observer greatly removed from the conflict I used to view Israel as an

I don't see this as a smart move (let alone strategy) in any time frame. As a third-party observer greatly removed from the conflict I used to view Israel as an island under attack from terrorists. Now I'm struggling to see the differences between their activities and blowing up airplanes or launching rockets from schools and hospitals. You can say I'm naive, and why would Israel care about how I feel, but as a country and a people they only exist as long as we're their benefactor, and I don't think I'm alone in how I feel.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dmead 2y ago
They were never different. They just speak English better than the arabs.
AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
There are old stories of the Russians planting mines inside children's toys during some of the later cold war conflicts. This is starting to feel a bit like that. Nobody had any way of knowing who was holding those pagers when they sent that packet but they still distributed thousands of munitions throughout the populace and pressed the red button. Now there are probably at least a hundred or so still out there that haven't exploded and are just live UXO sitting in people's desk drawers. I'd say it's pretty fucked.
- EGreg 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    It's a bit silly to think the Ukrainians would do something like this, because any such thing would instantly lose them the war as all western support is withdrawn. Russia meanwhile... they just seem like they want to see the world burn. Given the fact they're fighting using convicted criminals, it doesn't seem all that far fetched.
    - EGreg 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        which has now escalated into 1 million dead in Ukraine So mere hours after appearing in the WSJ, "1M are now dead or injured (but actually about 80k Ukrainian, 200k Russian dead)"[0] is being misquoted as simply "1M dead", and not so coincidentally in tandem with another misconception (that gets repeated on HN almost daily it seems): when it could have been resolved w Minsk Accords or anything negotiated in Normandy or Turkey since then. "Could have been resolved", that is, by granting to Putin permanent sovereignty over whatever territories he happened to be sitting on at the time, if not then some, and other non-viable concessions (with no guarantees that they would even work to stop him from simply grabbing more land and/or just keep bombing Ukrainian cities whenever it might suit his fancy): [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41568861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41568861
        Aeolun 2y ago
        > by granting to Putin permanent sovereignty over whatever territories he happened to be sitting on at the time I think the one thing I can agree with is that it’s debatable whether it’s ultimately worth it. Is Putin’s Russia so much worse that it’s worth 80k deaths to prevent it becoming reality in those regions currently occupied?
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        I guess it depends on whether you think it's OK to be forced at gunpoint to abandon your culture and language and adopt your invader's, and to live in a totalitarian autocracy rather than a very imperfect democracy.
        EGreg 2y ago
        I mean, that’s literally what has happeneed throughout history everywhere? Lots of groups currently live as part of a larger country - Basques, Catalonians, Kurds, Tibetans etc. does this mean they have to lose millions of people fighting for total independence and sovereignty? In Ukraine, for instance, Crimea was an unwilling particpant, ever since 1991 we know 94% voted to break away from Ukraine. Ukraine invaded them in the 90s, arrested their leaders and changed their constitution. Going further back, Galicia was part of Poland, but then Ukrainian communists took it. And Poland used to rule Ukraine, which Ukrainians chafed under (Bogdan Khmelnitsky revolt). Ukraine has been a tinderbox of many cultures, incouding Kossacks, Orthodox Christians, Greeks, Russians, Catholic Poles, religious and secular Jews, Red athiest Communists, and more. In 1919 it was briefly a Cossack Hetmanate, if you can believe that! Actually, communist Bolsheviks (except for Stalin) are the ones responsible for reviving Ukrainian language and culture, as part of their program of “korenizatziya” throughout the USSR. The opposite of what you’d expect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization The culture of “hating Russians” was there among some nationalists, such as Petliura, Bandera and Schuhevych, who took the opportunities around world wars to try to fight for independence. But they were also deeply wrapped up with hatred of Jews, Poles etc. The two guys I mentioned are responsible for killing many Jews, Poles, etc. After WW2, the Soviet Union had lost 30 million people but emerged a victor over nazis. The USA in a few scant years had made NATO with formerly-nazi Germany as a founding member, against USSR. In 1954 USSR formally asked to join, before starting the Warsaw Pact. Incidentally that same year Khrustchev’s Presidium unilaterally gifted Crimea from Russian SSR to Ukrainian SSR “in a spirit of deep friendship”. USA and CIA preferreed to work with literal nazis against the eastern bloc. (Operation paperclip, Pinochet in Chile, etc etc.) Radio Liberty was a CIA-funded program to keep the opposition to USSR alive in Ukraine, usually among the far-right elements who sympathized more with the nazis who had lost, and whose grandfathers fought on that side. It didn’t matter to USA, because USSR was their geopolitical rival now. Same as it didn’t matter about sponsoring jihadists (which is what “mujahideen” means in Arabic) in Afghanistan and getting 2 million civilians killed in a needless civil war, spending billions radicalizing and arming people together with Saudis and leading to the explosion of Wahhabist Islam around the world, ending up later ravaging Iraq, Syria, Nigeria etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwpR6ngoSjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwpR6ngoSjQ It’s not about “preserving culture”. That’s the cynical explanation. It’s about proxy wars and weakening the rivals throuh endless quagmires. USA and its architects of proxy wars do not actually care about the people on the ground: https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/ https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and...
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  It is morally fucked to compare trapping children's toys with trapping the communications devices of soldiers in a war.
  - hypeatei 2y ago
    So you can guarantee every single pager went to a solider of war? By that logic, soldiers in the Ukraine war also use cellphones and drones so it's A-OKAY to implant bombs in those products too?
    - jojobas 2y ago
      There are acceptable levels of collateral damage. You can bomb an ordnance storage facility even if there's a hospital right next to it (or, in fact, right not on top of it). They've made sure the pagers were used by Hezbollah first and foremost, tough shit if few were given to kids to play. And yes if Ukrainians were able to blow up all drones within say 50km of the front lines on the Russian side they'd be justified to do that, even if some were in civilians' hands.
      - loceng 2y ago
        You've been victim of what's called manufactured consent. Why hasn't Israel allowed any investigations in Gaza, not showing evidence they're using to obliterate practically all of Palestine now, not allowing foreign journalists in either to document things?
        jojobas 2y ago
        This is just a bunch of non-sequiturs.
        loceng 2y ago
        It logically fits, you're just avoiding and trying to control the goal posts/scope of what's talked about. You'd prefer we mostly only talk about Oct. 7th and afterward, right?
- primroot 2y ago
  "Israeli fighter planes have also attempted to kill children by dropping thousands of booby-trapped toys on Lebanese villages and towns. The Israeli occupying forces have used this method through the years and continue to do so, the most recent example being when booby-trapped toys were dropped on the town of Nabatiyah, killing and injuring children and permanently disfiguring others." https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-180386/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-180386/
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
senectus1 2y ago
jesus, this is going to make taking electronics on aircraft damned near impossible now.
- graeme 2y ago
  Surely airport security scanners scan for explosive material
  - caf 2y ago
    The explosive scanning is the thing where they pull some people out of line and run a wand over you and your gear, then put it into a machine and wait a few seconds for the analysis.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    To a point, but it's spot checks at best; a state actor has full access to the wide range of explosive compounds, surely there's some that wouldn't be detected (or that can be handled and packaged in such a way that it doesn't get detected)?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Just like everything else 90s the transparent iMac G3 look is going to be coming back only in the non-ironic prison use for having everything in a clear case (to check for contraband).
- gonzo41 2y ago
  This is probably the biggest impact tbh. I wonder if the US public would support these actions if it knew it was going to come back on them with longer TSA lines.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
There are 100,000+ northern Israeli's who are refugees inside Israel because Hezbollah is firing hundred of rockets indiscriminately daily at civilian targets, but Israel doing something specifically targeted at higher level Hezbollah operatives makes you feel like Israel is doing exactly the same thing? All while you don't even yet know the reason for the Israeli op (was it to stop an imminent Hezbollah action? Seems odd that this also impacted so many operative in Syria, doesn't it? Why aren't people mentioning that this was larger than Lebanon?)
- cornercasechase 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - yadaeno 2y ago
    How is it ethnically cleansed if 20% of the Israeli population is native?
    - judahmeek 2y ago
      The percentage of native population used to be 100%, so I don't think pointing out the change in percentage really works in favor of your argument.
      - yadaeno 2y ago
        Doesn’t it depend on the time scale? If we are talking about pre-globalization many countries are no longer have a majority “native” population. (US, Japan, Taiwan, parts of Europe) and that is just the reality of human history. I think we have to decide on a time when the back and fourth geocoding between groups is no longer acceptable. Most of the world thinks it’s around the end of ww2 and the start of globalization, but are you contending that it should be later, and the Arabs should take back Israel?
      - olalonde 2y ago
        Not necessarily, this can happen with immigration alone. For example, French and English descendants used to form a much greater percentage of the Canadian population, yet they were not "ethnically cleansed".
BjoernKW 2y ago
> Now I'm struggling to see the differences between their activities and blowing up airplanes or launching rockets from schools and hospitals. Well, the obvious difference is that blowing up airplanes or launching rockets at residential areas intentionally targets civilians in order to spread a maximum amount of terror among the civilian population while blowing up pagers that were used for coordinating attacks against Israel very specifically targets operatives involved in such activities. Some of the initial footage shows such a device going off while innocent bystanders remain unharmed. You can't get any more targeted than that. Yes, such a pager might have ended up in the hands of a non-involved person, but given the facts known so far that's very unlikely, because there's a reason those people were carrying these devices on them: They were afraid of being tracked down by Mossad in the first place.
- ardfard 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - 1over137 2y ago
    >This is an indiscriminate attack. It’s the opposite. They discriminated carefully. Perhaps you mean to say innocent bystanders also were collateral damage, which certainly seems true also.
    - stahtops 2y ago
      They may have discriminated carefully on which devices were modified, but any care or intelligence ends there. When they triggered the bombs, they can’t have known who or what was in the blast radius. Video shows one going off in a produce market. The fact that those variables are uncontrolled make it indiscriminate, by definition.
  - BjoernKW 2y ago
    > This is false. Many innocents are killed including children That article - just like all other sources - mentions one 8-year-old girl, not "many innocents" and not several children either. Hence, this is deliberate misinformation. > You can't determine where the device is when the bomb is activated. You absolutely can. It's highly likely to be in the targeted person's pocket. Where else would it be? After all, people usually don't hand their phones to random strangers or leave them lying around - and those pagers aren't even mere personal devices used for private purposes. Why would any of those devices end up anywhere else but the pocket of the person using it? > This is an indiscriminate attack. Launching rockets at civilians is. Blowing up pagers explicitly used for terrorist activities isn't.
poisonarena 2y ago
>as a country and a people they only exist as long as we're their benefactor Why do so many people think this? If the US stopped "giving" them "military aid" which is actually just disney dollars to spend in the US military industrial complex they would be out a small percentage of their defense budget.
archsurface 2y ago
No one's alone in how they feel.
fracus 2y ago
When you don't treat people who are brutally uncivilized with civility, it isn't long before people forget who the bad guy is and where it all started. If you are a civilized society, you have to treat the uncivil with civility. You have to set an example.
- komali2 2y ago
  Your perspective is that the Palestinians are brutally uncivilized?
  - fracus 2y ago
    I think it is more telling you made that assumption.
    - komali2 2y ago
      I was trying to bridge a communication gap by offering an interpretion. In truth I don't understand your comment at all, but I never go to stack overflow empty handed for example.
mjfl 2y ago
you should really take a rigorous look into the history of early Israel and the ideologies of its founding members like Hertzl and Jabotinsky. They have always been terrorists.
anon291 2y ago
> as we're their benefactor, and I don't think I'm alone in how I feel. It's undoubtedly true the US supports Israel generally, but Israel is more capable of its own.
walrushunter 2y ago
"Israel orchestrating an attack against the terrorists they're at war with makes me think less of them" is certainly an opinion. A batshit fucking stupid opinion, but you're entitled to it nonetheless. Please don't vote.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dmead 2y ago

They were never different. They just speak English better than the arabs.

AnarchismIsCool 2y ago

There are old stories of the Russians planting mines inside children's toys during some of the later cold war conflicts. This is starting to feel a bit like that. Nobody had any way of knowing who was holding those pagers when they sent that packet but they still distributed thousands of munitions throughout the populace and pressed the red button. Now there are probably at least a hundred or so still out there that haven't exploded and are just live UXO sitting in people's desk drawers. I'd say it's pretty fucked.

EGreg 2y ago
[flagged]
- Aeolun 2y ago
  It's a bit silly to think the Ukrainians would do something like this, because any such thing would instantly lose them the war as all western support is withdrawn. Russia meanwhile... they just seem like they want to see the world burn. Given the fact they're fighting using convicted criminals, it doesn't seem all that far fetched.
  - EGreg 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      which has now escalated into 1 million dead in Ukraine So mere hours after appearing in the WSJ, "1M are now dead or injured (but actually about 80k Ukrainian, 200k Russian dead)"[0] is being misquoted as simply "1M dead", and not so coincidentally in tandem with another misconception (that gets repeated on HN almost daily it seems): when it could have been resolved w Minsk Accords or anything negotiated in Normandy or Turkey since then. "Could have been resolved", that is, by granting to Putin permanent sovereignty over whatever territories he happened to be sitting on at the time, if not then some, and other non-viable concessions (with no guarantees that they would even work to stop him from simply grabbing more land and/or just keep bombing Ukrainian cities whenever it might suit his fancy): [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41568861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41568861
      - Aeolun 2y ago
        > by granting to Putin permanent sovereignty over whatever territories he happened to be sitting on at the time I think the one thing I can agree with is that it’s debatable whether it’s ultimately worth it. Is Putin’s Russia so much worse that it’s worth 80k deaths to prevent it becoming reality in those regions currently occupied?
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        I guess it depends on whether you think it's OK to be forced at gunpoint to abandon your culture and language and adopt your invader's, and to live in a totalitarian autocracy rather than a very imperfect democracy.
        EGreg 2y ago
        I mean, that’s literally what has happeneed throughout history everywhere? Lots of groups currently live as part of a larger country - Basques, Catalonians, Kurds, Tibetans etc. does this mean they have to lose millions of people fighting for total independence and sovereignty? In Ukraine, for instance, Crimea was an unwilling particpant, ever since 1991 we know 94% voted to break away from Ukraine. Ukraine invaded them in the 90s, arrested their leaders and changed their constitution. Going further back, Galicia was part of Poland, but then Ukrainian communists took it. And Poland used to rule Ukraine, which Ukrainians chafed under (Bogdan Khmelnitsky revolt). Ukraine has been a tinderbox of many cultures, incouding Kossacks, Orthodox Christians, Greeks, Russians, Catholic Poles, religious and secular Jews, Red athiest Communists, and more. In 1919 it was briefly a Cossack Hetmanate, if you can believe that! Actually, communist Bolsheviks (except for Stalin) are the ones responsible for reviving Ukrainian language and culture, as part of their program of “korenizatziya” throughout the USSR. The opposite of what you’d expect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization The culture of “hating Russians” was there among some nationalists, such as Petliura, Bandera and Schuhevych, who took the opportunities around world wars to try to fight for independence. But they were also deeply wrapped up with hatred of Jews, Poles etc. The two guys I mentioned are responsible for killing many Jews, Poles, etc. After WW2, the Soviet Union had lost 30 million people but emerged a victor over nazis. The USA in a few scant years had made NATO with formerly-nazi Germany as a founding member, against USSR. In 1954 USSR formally asked to join, before starting the Warsaw Pact. Incidentally that same year Khrustchev’s Presidium unilaterally gifted Crimea from Russian SSR to Ukrainian SSR “in a spirit of deep friendship”. USA and CIA preferreed to work with literal nazis against the eastern bloc. (Operation paperclip, Pinochet in Chile, etc etc.) Radio Liberty was a CIA-funded program to keep the opposition to USSR alive in Ukraine, usually among the far-right elements who sympathized more with the nazis who had lost, and whose grandfathers fought on that side. It didn’t matter to USA, because USSR was their geopolitical rival now. Same as it didn’t matter about sponsoring jihadists (which is what “mujahideen” means in Arabic) in Afghanistan and getting 2 million civilians killed in a needless civil war, spending billions radicalizing and arming people together with Saudis and leading to the explosion of Wahhabist Islam around the world, ending up later ravaging Iraq, Syria, Nigeria etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwpR6ngoSjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwpR6ngoSjQ It’s not about “preserving culture”. That’s the cynical explanation. It’s about proxy wars and weakening the rivals throuh endless quagmires. USA and its architects of proxy wars do not actually care about the people on the ground: https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/ https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and...
WillPostForFood 2y ago
It is morally fucked to compare trapping children's toys with trapping the communications devices of soldiers in a war.
- hypeatei 2y ago
  So you can guarantee every single pager went to a solider of war? By that logic, soldiers in the Ukraine war also use cellphones and drones so it's A-OKAY to implant bombs in those products too?
  - jojobas 2y ago
    There are acceptable levels of collateral damage. You can bomb an ordnance storage facility even if there's a hospital right next to it (or, in fact, right not on top of it). They've made sure the pagers were used by Hezbollah first and foremost, tough shit if few were given to kids to play. And yes if Ukrainians were able to blow up all drones within say 50km of the front lines on the Russian side they'd be justified to do that, even if some were in civilians' hands.
    - loceng 2y ago
      You've been victim of what's called manufactured consent. Why hasn't Israel allowed any investigations in Gaza, not showing evidence they're using to obliterate practically all of Palestine now, not allowing foreign journalists in either to document things?
      - jojobas 2y ago
        This is just a bunch of non-sequiturs.
        loceng 2y ago
        It logically fits, you're just avoiding and trying to control the goal posts/scope of what's talked about. You'd prefer we mostly only talk about Oct. 7th and afterward, right?
primroot 2y ago
"Israeli fighter planes have also attempted to kill children by dropping thousands of booby-trapped toys on Lebanese villages and towns. The Israeli occupying forces have used this method through the years and continue to do so, the most recent example being when booby-trapped toys were dropped on the town of Nabatiyah, killing and injuring children and permanently disfiguring others." https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-180386/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-180386/

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

senectus1 2y ago

jesus, this is going to make taking electronics on aircraft damned near impossible now.

graeme 2y ago
Surely airport security scanners scan for explosive material
- caf 2y ago
  The explosive scanning is the thing where they pull some people out of line and run a wand over you and your gear, then put it into a machine and wait a few seconds for the analysis.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  To a point, but it's spot checks at best; a state actor has full access to the wide range of explosive compounds, surely there's some that wouldn't be detected (or that can be handled and packaged in such a way that it doesn't get detected)?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Just like everything else 90s the transparent iMac G3 look is going to be coming back only in the non-ironic prison use for having everything in a clear case (to check for contraband).
gonzo41 2y ago
This is probably the biggest impact tbh. I wonder if the US public would support these actions if it knew it was going to come back on them with longer TSA lines.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

There are 100,000+ northern Israeli's who are refugees inside Israel because Hezbollah is firing hundred of rockets indiscriminately daily at civilian targets, but Israel doing something specifically targeted at higher level Hezbollah operatives makes you feel like Israel is doing exactly the same thing? All while you don't even yet know the reason for the Israeli op (was it to stop an imminent Hezbollah action? Seems odd that this also impacted so many operative in Syria, doesn't it? Why aren't people mentioning that this was larger than Lebanon?)

cornercasechase 2y ago
[flagged]
- yadaeno 2y ago
  How is it ethnically cleansed if 20% of the Israeli population is native?
  - judahmeek 2y ago
    The percentage of native population used to be 100%, so I don't think pointing out the change in percentage really works in favor of your argument.
    - yadaeno 2y ago
      Doesn’t it depend on the time scale? If we are talking about pre-globalization many countries are no longer have a majority “native” population. (US, Japan, Taiwan, parts of Europe) and that is just the reality of human history. I think we have to decide on a time when the back and fourth geocoding between groups is no longer acceptable. Most of the world thinks it’s around the end of ww2 and the start of globalization, but are you contending that it should be later, and the Arabs should take back Israel?
    - olalonde 2y ago
      Not necessarily, this can happen with immigration alone. For example, French and English descendants used to form a much greater percentage of the Canadian population, yet they were not "ethnically cleansed".

BjoernKW 2y ago

> Now I'm struggling to see the differences between their activities and blowing up airplanes or launching rockets from schools and hospitals. Well, the obvious difference is that blowing up airplanes or launching rockets at residential areas intentionally targets civilians in order to spread a maximum amount of terror among the civilian population while blowing up pagers that were used for coordinating attacks against Israel very specifically targets operatives involved in such activities. Some of the initial footage shows such a device going off while innocent bystanders remain unharmed. You can't get any more targeted than that. Yes, such a pager might have ended up in the hands of a non-involved person, but given the facts known so far that's very unlikely, because there's a reason those people were carrying these devices on them: They were afraid of being tracked down by Mossad in the first place.

ardfard 2y ago
[flagged]
- 1over137 2y ago
  >This is an indiscriminate attack. It’s the opposite. They discriminated carefully. Perhaps you mean to say innocent bystanders also were collateral damage, which certainly seems true also.
  - stahtops 2y ago
    They may have discriminated carefully on which devices were modified, but any care or intelligence ends there. When they triggered the bombs, they can’t have known who or what was in the blast radius. Video shows one going off in a produce market. The fact that those variables are uncontrolled make it indiscriminate, by definition.
- BjoernKW 2y ago
  > This is false. Many innocents are killed including children That article - just like all other sources - mentions one 8-year-old girl, not "many innocents" and not several children either. Hence, this is deliberate misinformation. > You can't determine where the device is when the bomb is activated. You absolutely can. It's highly likely to be in the targeted person's pocket. Where else would it be? After all, people usually don't hand their phones to random strangers or leave them lying around - and those pagers aren't even mere personal devices used for private purposes. Why would any of those devices end up anywhere else but the pocket of the person using it? > This is an indiscriminate attack. Launching rockets at civilians is. Blowing up pagers explicitly used for terrorist activities isn't.

poisonarena 2y ago

>as a country and a people they only exist as long as we're their benefactor Why do so many people think this? If the US stopped "giving" them "military aid" which is actually just disney dollars to spend in the US military industrial complex they would be out a small percentage of their defense budget.

archsurface 2y ago

No one's alone in how they feel.

fracus 2y ago

When you don't treat people who are brutally uncivilized with civility, it isn't long before people forget who the bad guy is and where it all started. If you are a civilized society, you have to treat the uncivil with civility. You have to set an example.

komali2 2y ago
Your perspective is that the Palestinians are brutally uncivilized?
- fracus 2y ago
  I think it is more telling you made that assumption.
  - komali2 2y ago
    I was trying to bridge a communication gap by offering an interpretion. In truth I don't understand your comment at all, but I never go to stack overflow empty handed for example.

mjfl 2y ago

you should really take a rigorous look into the history of early Israel and the ideologies of its founding members like Hertzl and Jabotinsky. They have always been terrorists.

anon291 2y ago

> as we're their benefactor, and I don't think I'm alone in how I feel. It's undoubtedly true the US supports Israel generally, but Israel is more capable of its own.

walrushunter 2y ago

"Israel orchestrating an attack against the terrorists they're at war with makes me think less of them" is certainly an opinion. A batshit fucking stupid opinion, but you're entitled to it nonetheless. Please don't vote.