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I'd imagine it's pretty easy, too. You've already got the assets in a poorly-accountable and liquid state - now all you need is a chump to unload the bag on. Al

I'd imagine it's pretty easy, too. You've already got the assets in a poorly-accountable and liquid state - now all you need is a chump to unload the bag on. Almost makes you wonder how many cryptocurrency influencers are in the pocket of sanctioned nations...

echelon 2y ago
> makes you wonder how many cryptocurrency influencers are in the pocket of sanctioned nations That's a wild thought that hadn't occurred to me. With increased KYC and tamp down, where does this money go next?
- zmgsabst 2y ago
  In much the same way the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it, financial networks consider lost opportunity due to regulation as damage and route around it. People will assume I mean buying drugs, but actually, I mean: - when I had $10k in my US bank account but couldn’t access it while traveling because I ran afoul of whatever KYC at Western Union after losing my bank card; or, - today, when I couldn’t prepay for OpenAI platform credits because I have the “wrong kind” of bank account for them. Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control stifling innovation and growth as damage — and will perennially route around them to get the system flourishing again.
  - beeflet 2y ago
    >In much the same way the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it I think this is an outdated meme that has not proven very true. I won't go into a full rant unless you want, but long story short the architecture of the internet has turned out to be more fragile than expected. >Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control stifling innovation and growth as damage Maybe not society as a whole, but certainly sub-societies do, so yes. In this case, Lazarus group is a sub-society that is parasitic to society at large.
    - zmgsabst 2y ago
      What do you mean? The internet has successfully resisted multiple government-sponsored PSYOPs and allowed the formation of a revolution to fix society from its current trend towards fascism, unifying the liberation movement across continents — which I would argue is working far beyond expectations. (Ed: I’d genuinely like to hear the rant, even as a tangent.) > Maybe not society as a whole, but certainly sub-societies do, so yes. All of society does. Which is why regulation (and oppression) needs to be focused to be effective: if you want to suppress Lazarus group you can’t catch too many strays or you build up enough societal counter-pressure your regulation is subverted.
  - tw04 2y ago
    > when I had $10k in my US bank account but couldn’t access it while traveling because I ran afoul of whatever KYC at Western Union after losing my bank card; or, Why would you first stop be western Union if you lost your bank card? Ignoring my confusion as to why you didn’t have a credit card handy, or a phone with a banking app handy if you’re well off enough to have $10k in the bank. Why would your first thought be going to western union, a well known haven for scammers everywhere. OF COURSE it set off all sorts of red flags with your bank. I’d be more concerned if they didn’t put up roadblocks to someone claiming to be you, in another country, trying to pull out large sums of money at a western union.
    - zmgsabst 2y ago
      How do those things help? I had both a credit card and a phone; you can’t get cash with NFC. I was stuck using credit card services and cut off from most of the economy of the primarily cash-based society I was visiting. To the extent merchants accepted digital payments, it was primarily in their local banking app. > OF COURSE it set off all sorts of red flags with your bank. Do you not understand why I regard me standing at a WU branch with my passport in hand and access to my authenticator app on my phone, but unable to actually use the service regardless, as a frustrating experience? Roadblocks would have been fine: there was no road at all, no matter how many checkpoints I was willing to satisfy. From the same bank who happily allows online transactions to drain my account in obvious patterns of fraud from well-known fraudsters (eg, chat.versailles) without a single roadblock — so they can harvest fees.
      - n_ary 2y ago
        No ATMs nearby? Usually unless you are in some severely impoverished nation, ATMs should allow to withdraw(with some hefty fees sometimes) some local currency.
        zmgsabst 2y ago
        ATMs and banks (cash advances) supported cards and cards with chips, but not NFC. My physical cards were lost together — which admittedly was dumb, but losing your wallet while still having your passport and phone/Apple Wallet shouldn’t result in “frozen out of banking”.
  - immibis 2y ago
    OpenAI isn't the government - yet.
  - lottin 2y ago
    > Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control stifling innovation and growth as damage You think society sees financial regulations as fascistic impulses that stifle innovation? Where do you get that from?
    - zmgsabst 2y ago
      I didn’t say that in what you quoted. > Society views the 1:[fascistic impulses] of those in control 2:[stifling innovation and growth] as damage I say that people who run our societies are fascists — and their impulses for control [1] then cause a stifling of innovation and growth [2]. Which a five minute conversation with someone that does business will convince you of better than I will. However, you got cause and effect reversed in your reading: I said that fascists are stifling innovation with regulation, not that regulations are fascistic. I also carefully said lost opportunity — because regulations become routed around precisely when they introduce more cost than benefit. Eg, some regulations boost opportunity by creating stable business environments.
- sanp 2y ago
  And how many VCs heavily invested in Crypto startups?
Waterluvian 2y ago
And if any of them even realize it.
CaptainOfCoit 2y ago
> I'd imagine it's pretty easy, too. You've already got the assets in a poorly-accountable and liquid state Alright, so walk me through it because I don't see how it's easier to wash than other ill-gained funds like cash. You robbed someone and now you sit on $200M worth of Bitcoin. How you unload them so you have cash you can use, when every transaction is traceable and any exchange willing to trade for those amounts do KYC and follows AML?
- conception 2y ago
  You run the bitcoin through mixers/online exchanges into monero/zerocoin and then to wherever to get out with fiat.
  - artdigital 2y ago
    you still have to do the actual laundering at some point. just because you have $200 million now in monero (which you also need to get to first) doesn't mean you can just transfer them to your bank account. exchanges will KYC you for that, and you will definitely get flagged for a source of wealth / source of funds check to prove where you got it from
    - vernon99 2y ago
      For $200m yes, but you’d be really stupid trying to do it all at once. Small amounts, multiple accounts, gradually over time.
    - bitcoinmoney 2y ago
      It's really easy. Use casinos in 3rd world countries to certify your money as gambling winnings. There must be underground network for this. So it looks like you're gambling and you got lucky. Very dangerous though. I heard that they charge 13% total fee. You come in at 5M$. You play for 1 week.. Leave with 160M or something. Bring that cash into the bank and deposit it.
      - Loughla 2y ago
kotaKat 2y ago
That's what the influx of shitty NFTs and "tokens" and "chains" are that keep coming up in Twitter ads these days. Criminals just building shitty bags to rip off dumb people while they launder away the profit underneath it.

echelon 2y ago

> makes you wonder how many cryptocurrency influencers are in the pocket of sanctioned nations That's a wild thought that hadn't occurred to me. With increased KYC and tamp down, where does this money go next?

zmgsabst 2y ago
In much the same way the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it, financial networks consider lost opportunity due to regulation as damage and route around it. People will assume I mean buying drugs, but actually, I mean: - when I had $10k in my US bank account but couldn’t access it while traveling because I ran afoul of whatever KYC at Western Union after losing my bank card; or, - today, when I couldn’t prepay for OpenAI platform credits because I have the “wrong kind” of bank account for them. Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control stifling innovation and growth as damage — and will perennially route around them to get the system flourishing again.
- beeflet 2y ago
  >In much the same way the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it I think this is an outdated meme that has not proven very true. I won't go into a full rant unless you want, but long story short the architecture of the internet has turned out to be more fragile than expected. >Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control stifling innovation and growth as damage Maybe not society as a whole, but certainly sub-societies do, so yes. In this case, Lazarus group is a sub-society that is parasitic to society at large.
  - zmgsabst 2y ago
    What do you mean? The internet has successfully resisted multiple government-sponsored PSYOPs and allowed the formation of a revolution to fix society from its current trend towards fascism, unifying the liberation movement across continents — which I would argue is working far beyond expectations. (Ed: I’d genuinely like to hear the rant, even as a tangent.) > Maybe not society as a whole, but certainly sub-societies do, so yes. All of society does. Which is why regulation (and oppression) needs to be focused to be effective: if you want to suppress Lazarus group you can’t catch too many strays or you build up enough societal counter-pressure your regulation is subverted.
- tw04 2y ago
  > when I had $10k in my US bank account but couldn’t access it while traveling because I ran afoul of whatever KYC at Western Union after losing my bank card; or, Why would you first stop be western Union if you lost your bank card? Ignoring my confusion as to why you didn’t have a credit card handy, or a phone with a banking app handy if you’re well off enough to have $10k in the bank. Why would your first thought be going to western union, a well known haven for scammers everywhere. OF COURSE it set off all sorts of red flags with your bank. I’d be more concerned if they didn’t put up roadblocks to someone claiming to be you, in another country, trying to pull out large sums of money at a western union.
  - zmgsabst 2y ago
    How do those things help? I had both a credit card and a phone; you can’t get cash with NFC. I was stuck using credit card services and cut off from most of the economy of the primarily cash-based society I was visiting. To the extent merchants accepted digital payments, it was primarily in their local banking app. > OF COURSE it set off all sorts of red flags with your bank. Do you not understand why I regard me standing at a WU branch with my passport in hand and access to my authenticator app on my phone, but unable to actually use the service regardless, as a frustrating experience? Roadblocks would have been fine: there was no road at all, no matter how many checkpoints I was willing to satisfy. From the same bank who happily allows online transactions to drain my account in obvious patterns of fraud from well-known fraudsters (eg, chat.versailles) without a single roadblock — so they can harvest fees.
    - n_ary 2y ago
      No ATMs nearby? Usually unless you are in some severely impoverished nation, ATMs should allow to withdraw(with some hefty fees sometimes) some local currency.
      - zmgsabst 2y ago
        ATMs and banks (cash advances) supported cards and cards with chips, but not NFC. My physical cards were lost together — which admittedly was dumb, but losing your wallet while still having your passport and phone/Apple Wallet shouldn’t result in “frozen out of banking”.
- immibis 2y ago
  OpenAI isn't the government - yet.
- lottin 2y ago
  > Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control stifling innovation and growth as damage You think society sees financial regulations as fascistic impulses that stifle innovation? Where do you get that from?
  - zmgsabst 2y ago
    I didn’t say that in what you quoted. > Society views the 1:[fascistic impulses] of those in control 2:[stifling innovation and growth] as damage I say that people who run our societies are fascists — and their impulses for control [1] then cause a stifling of innovation and growth [2]. Which a five minute conversation with someone that does business will convince you of better than I will. However, you got cause and effect reversed in your reading: I said that fascists are stifling innovation with regulation, not that regulations are fascistic. I also carefully said lost opportunity — because regulations become routed around precisely when they introduce more cost than benefit. Eg, some regulations boost opportunity by creating stable business environments.
sanp 2y ago
And how many VCs heavily invested in Crypto startups?

Waterluvian 2y ago

And if any of them even realize it.

CaptainOfCoit 2y ago

> I'd imagine it's pretty easy, too. You've already got the assets in a poorly-accountable and liquid state Alright, so walk me through it because I don't see how it's easier to wash than other ill-gained funds like cash. You robbed someone and now you sit on $200M worth of Bitcoin. How you unload them so you have cash you can use, when every transaction is traceable and any exchange willing to trade for those amounts do KYC and follows AML?

conception 2y ago
You run the bitcoin through mixers/online exchanges into monero/zerocoin and then to wherever to get out with fiat.
- artdigital 2y ago
  you still have to do the actual laundering at some point. just because you have $200 million now in monero (which you also need to get to first) doesn't mean you can just transfer them to your bank account. exchanges will KYC you for that, and you will definitely get flagged for a source of wealth / source of funds check to prove where you got it from
  - vernon99 2y ago
    For $200m yes, but you’d be really stupid trying to do it all at once. Small amounts, multiple accounts, gradually over time.
  - bitcoinmoney 2y ago
    It's really easy. Use casinos in 3rd world countries to certify your money as gambling winnings. There must be underground network for this. So it looks like you're gambling and you got lucky. Very dangerous though. I heard that they charge 13% total fee. You come in at 5M$. You play for 1 week.. Leave with 160M or something. Bring that cash into the bank and deposit it.
    - Loughla 2y ago

kotaKat 2y ago

That's what the influx of shitty NFTs and "tokens" and "chains" are that keep coming up in Twitter ads these days. Criminals just building shitty bags to rip off dumb people while they launder away the profit underneath it.