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Almost all new car sales in Norway last month were EVs
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- LUmBULtERA 2y ago> Norwegians pay higher taxes on cars they purchase that pollute, and lower ones on low and zero-emission cars. The country also taxes bigger cars more than smaller ones. EV drivers often pay lower parking fees and can use bus lanes, too. The first two sentences make sense! Not the last one though. After driving an EV for a few thousand miles, ive realized they are so superior to ICE for my use case. I hate driving ICE vehicles in the occasions I still do now.
- ubercore 2y agoThey're usually combo bus/taxi lanes. Do you think it doesn't make sense because busses should still be prioritized over private vehicles?
- LUmBULtERA 2y agoThat’s my thinking, yes.
- ubercore 2y agoAnecdotally, it's not really an issue. I've never seen a bus hindered by EVs, and honestly most people don't even tend to use them anyway.
- pcl 2y agoYeah, I can’t get my head around that. Why do so many EVs sit in traffic when they don’t have to?
- ubercore 2y agoI mean, I don't live in the biggest city in Norway (Stavanger), but the places there are bus lanes tend not to be the places with the worst traffic problems. And there are roundabouts everywhere, with very few traffic lights, so traffic flows pretty well overall.
- Sakos 2y agoI wonder. Are people who aren't well off able to afford cars if nearly all cars sold are EV?
- LUmBULtERA 2y agoI think this is just about new car sales? Less well off can still by used ICE, which is what they would be anyway. Or even used Model 3 are in the low $20k USD here. Used Chevy Bolt are $10-20k, some leafs are cheaper.
- pcl 2y agoA new Tesla and a Camry are about the same price, given the ICE taxes. So no, many people can’t afford cars, but actually the EVs are the affordable options.
- mttch 2y agoI just bought a second hand EV for 4k, cheaper than and ICE of the same age.
- derwiki 2y agoOld Leaf? What range does the battery have?
- theshrike79 2y agoDepends on your definition of not well off. I think the age of $1000 beaters is going to disappear. Just the raw metals in a completely dead EV battery are worth more if you recycle it. Even more if it's only "dead" for EV use, there's still dozens of kilowatts of usable capacity for other uses as-is.
- johnea 2y agoI just bought a 1 year old Nissan Leaf for $15,000 in San Diego California. The aversion to EVs in the US is mostly just american idiocy. In the US 2/3 of people live in single family homes. That means NEVER using a public charging station. Most of those households also own more than one car. So it's easy to retain a ICE vehicle for when it's really needed. Let's just face the facts, the Scandinavian governments, and the Scandinavian people are just smarter than americans... p.s. I expect this car to pay for itself in ~5 years, due to savings on gas. How long before your ICE vehicle pays for itself? Like most long term investments, it requires a smarter population.
- pcl 2y agoIn Oslo, the bus lanes on the highways are only accidentally available to EVs currently. They were open for years as a means to foster EV adoption. But once sales took off, the local government tightened the screws — you needed an EV and also at least two people in the car to get access to the bus lane. But! When they printed the new signs, somehow a double negative slipped through, and the text on the (many) signs said that you could only use the bus lane if you were driving alone in an EV. Obviously not the intent. But currently, all the signs have the double negative condition crossed out, and all EVs continue to be able to use the bus lanes.
- LUmBULtERA 2y agoHa, that’s funny! That’s similar where I am in the US too, early on there were EV exemptions to some carpool lanes, but that’s phasing out as EVs are normalized.
- euroderf 2y agoSo, replacing erroneous signs is beyond the current state of technology ? As is proofreading before committing to metal ?
- CRConrad 2y ago> So, replacing erroneous signs is beyond the current state of technology ? From the GGP: >>> But currently, all the signs have the double negative condition crossed out
- aaomidi 2y agoAgreedish. In the US I don’t think I’d support higher taxes for non EVs because cars are unfortunately a necessity here and EVs are (mostly artificially through govt policy) expensive. But yes to your point of ICE cars suck. They’re so much more impressive engineering than EVs but that complexity is also their downfall imo.
- barbazoo 2y agoCould still tax based on weight to encourage people buying smaller cars. That’s how it works in many places.
- aaomidi 2y agoI would be 100% in favor of this.
- thedrbrian 2y ago>Tax based on weight Ooooohhhhh and that just makes all the EVs more expensive than they already are.
- LUmBULtERA 2y agoThis is part of the reason why vehicles need to also be taxes based on pollution. But road-wear needs to be compensated too. It's worth mentioning that in the US, plenty of ICE vehicles weigh more than a typical EV. Honda Pilot, Toyota Sienna, etc.. etc...
- tehlike 2y agoGas is already taxed.
- aaomidi 2y agoWell. Yes but gas tax also goes for road maintenance which EVs don’t pay. Some states have increased the registration fees for EVs to counter this.
- MostlyStable 2y ago>After driving an EV for a few thousand miles, ive realized they are so superior to ICE for my use case I vastly prefer my low-ish end EV (Hyundai Kona) to every ICE vehicle I've ever driven. Even if I wasn't saving ~$100/month in fuel costs, and even if I the environmental effects were a complete wash, I don't think I'd ever buy an ICE again. I think the only reason I'd ever go to an ICE vehicle is if I needed something larger. Right now, if you need a "family transport" vehicle with space for adults, kids, luggage, etc, the EV world is pretty limited. I had high hopes for the VW Buzz, but it's total range is a bit borderline for me, although I still need to calculate out how it would compare for my typical long distance drive. The Kona has greater range, but a much slower max charge rate, and it might turn out that those balance each other out, and the Kona has been fine for the 10 hour road trips I've done so far.
- magicalhippo 2y ago> a much slower max charge rate Max charge rate is such a poor metric, as actual charge rate as a function of SOC varies so much between cars. I'd like to see some standardized figure which is max average charge rate over 15 min, or perhaps minimum charge time for 30 kWh (~150 km range) or something along those lines. My car has 120 kW peak IIRC, but I've never reached it. Once it's past 20% it has dropped to like 70 kW or something like that. And since I try my best to keep it above 20%, that 120 kW number doesn't mean much to me. My sister has an ID.4 and it's the same story there. However I do know there are cars that are much better at this, able to sustain quite high charging rate up to or above 50% SOC.
- floxy 2y agoYou might like this site: https://evkx.net/models/hyundai/ioniq_5/ioniq_5_long_range_awd/chargingcurve/ https://evkx.net/models/hyundai/ioniq_5/ioniq_5_long_range_a... https://evkx.net/models/volkswagen/id.4/id.4_gtx_4motion/chargingcurve/ https://evkx.net/models/volkswagen/id.4/id.4_gtx_4motion/cha...
- MostlyStable 2y agoOn the on hand you are right, but when you go from a max charge rate of ~70 kW (which I have actually gotten on occasion), to a max charge rate of ~170 kW (the advertised rate of the Buzz), you are going to get a very noticeable and real change in charge time. When peak rates are similar, I agree that they don't tell you that much. When one peak rate is triple another, then the specifics of the charge curve don't matter that much, it's going to charge a lot faster.
- erik_seaberg 2y agoHow many cars sold are new? How many owners have garages for charging?
- nine_k 2y agoNorway has put like 30 years of efforts into building up impressive electric transmission and EV-charging infrastructure. Check out e.g. these articles: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/08/how-norway-became-the-worlds-electric-car-capital/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/08/how-norway-became-the-w... https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/what-norways-experience-reveals-about-the-ev-charging-market https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/... Also note that the amount of habitable land in Norway is rather limited, so you don't get to drive hundreds of miles over flat highway-friendly terrain, like e.g. in the US Midwest.
- erik_seaberg 2y ago> Since more than 82% of EV users in Norway charge their vehicles at home, housing associations can apply for grants that subsidize up to 50 percent of the cost of buying and installing communal chargers. I'm familiar with parking in your own garage and charging, or parking on the street with no infrastructure, but I don't understand how far away these chargers would be and whether they're usable overnight.
- theshrike79 2y agoBasically there's communal parking in the housing association's property, you can use the chargers there to charge. It's just a normal parking space, but with a charger.
- ubercore 2y agoLevel 2 chargers are super common on a lot of houses, and there are plenty of other options around most towns and roads. I tend to see mostly new cars, no clue what the breakdown is, though.
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- waynecochran 2y agoThe government essentially makes it unreasonable to buy any other type of car. Also gotta love that sweet sweet North Sea oil. So what happens to all that oil? I am sure it only emits lollipops and unicorns when it is burned.
- paulryanrogers 2y agoAt least they're using the oil exports to break their own dependence on it. They'd be even more foolish to double down on it.
- waynecochran 2y agoIt is estimated that the North Sea may have 24 billion barrels remaining. So they can hand off the pesky problem to other countries and be smug that they are going electric. As if electricity just falls from sky.
- CRConrad 2y ago> As if electricity just falls from sky. For Norway, it literally does. In the form of rain and snow, which fills up their hydroelectric dams.
- waynecochran 2y agoGood point. I see that 90+% of their electrical power is hydroelectric.
- standardUser 2y agoAmericans can get a used Nissan Leaf for $10-$20k and it would accommodate virtually any daily commute plus side trips without ever spending a dollar on gas. I continue to be baffled year after year as to why more Americans don't go that route. At least those with detached homes or otherwise easy access to charging. If nothing else, the fact that most Americans don't by a cheap EV as a second car (assuming they have need of one) is particularly baffling.
- eastbound 2y agoSocial signaling is important. Whether you like the game or not. To not: In Europe, social signaling works in favor of biking… but only among a certain type of people (let’s say vegetarians). But it’s a circle of friends really hard to maintain because they also veto you if you take any non-ecologic decision. So, long story short, social status signaling cannot be cancelled by ecologist status signaling. Seems like we’d have to appease tensions on both sides…
- pcl 2y agoIn Norway, there are plenty of cycling enthusiasts (for around-town transit, commuting, and exercise / fun) with all sorts of dietary approaches. I don’t think there’s any meaningful vegetarian / cycling correlation there.
- pcl 2y agoRelatedly… a friend is looking for a power inverter for an otherwise-fine 2015 Leaf. Anyone here know where to source one?
- Axsuul 2y agoThe Nissan Leaf is not that practical. There's a reason why SUVs are the most popular type of car in the US.
- dijit 2y agoI thought we already understood that US large car sales was the result of the individualist culture and perceived improvements in safety from being in a heavier vehicle during a collision
- vinni2 2y ago> Norway has a slew of incentives in place that encourage residents to buy electric vehicles instead of gas cars. They have been slowly taken out.
- rullopat 2y agoSo the only way to push all people to buy EV right now is… distort the market with taxes on combustion engine vehicles.
- paulryanrogers 2y agoAlternatively you could look at it as pricing in previously overlooked externalities of ICE vehicles.
- acdha 2y agoLook at some of the research on the health costs of ICE emissions. Even before you try to assess the cost to the local and global environment you end up with annual death rates in the hundreds of thousands and many billions of dollars annually in medical expenses and quality of life reduction. A tax on pollution would be the best way to handle this since you could pour the money raised into healthcare and environmental remediation. https://theicct.org/new-study-quantifies-the-global-health-impacts-of-vehicle-exhaust/ https://theicct.org/new-study-quantifies-the-global-health-i... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4243514/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4243514/
- 4fterd4rk 2y agoThe market distortion is the price of the combustion vehicle not including the costs of what comes out of the tailpipe.
- PlunderBunny 2y agoEven without taxes, I'm pretty sure that for most use cases, a good electric vehicle will cost a lot less in the long term when you factor in maintenance in addition to 'fuel' costs.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- m463 2y agoA few cool things I like about norway - they fed money from their oil into their sovereign fund, which invests in clean energy, so they invest in what they want more of - they tax what they want less of
- rospaya 2y agoAre their cities quieter as a result?
- magicalhippo 2y agoRoad noise isn't much better (perhaps even slightly worse, they're heavy). B But in the local roads with 40 km/h (30 mph) or less, then yeah it's quite noticeable when an ICE comes along. The EVs you hardly hear. However, the 80 km/h (50 mph) roads make a lot of noise, so you'll hear them far away. So overall I'd say not really.
- Ferret7446 2y agoIIRC a lot of noise comes from tire vibration/friction/resonance and wind. (Similarly, tire and brake dust account for a lot of pollution too.)
- magicalhippo 2y agoYeah was tired so wrote "road noise" in my first sentence, but I really meant tire noise.
- PlunderBunny 2y agoNot a Norwegian, but my perception is that electric vehicles might not alter the 'average' noise, but they do change the peak/annoying noise levels. An (approximately) continuous background sound of traffic is far more tolerable than revving ICE engines, backfiring etc.
- srinathkrishna 2y agoDoes Norway allow Chinese car makers into the market? Skoda is popular but I wish the article also mentioned the median value of an EV in Norway. At least in the US, the cost of acquiring an EV is the major deterrent from what I can see. If you live in a city and you want to just get a cheap EV for under $25k for your typical commute, there's just no option in the US!
- fragmede 2y agoused leaf bolt or model 3
- asdefghyk 2y agoMust be a country where most trips are relatively short. ( a few 100 KMs or less ). A longer trip of a few 1000 KMs would need to stop for recharging several times.
- bigfatkitten 2y agoI'd love an EV, but no suitable vehicle yet exists in the market that can match the capability I have (and routinely use) now. High clearance 4x4, 1200km range, ability to seat 4 reasonably comfortably, 700kg payload, 800mm fording depth, priced under $80k USD. Table stakes specs for a diesel 4WD but the electric market isn't there yet.