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What I find fascinating/disturbing with OnlyFans and in some way with Twitch and streaming in general is more the client side than the creators. Here are basica

• jewelry 2y ago
  > I find these new pimps scarier than the old sort in that they pretend to have clean hands The old one does. And I disagree this is worse, as it’s probably just you never encounter the old model yourself or not knowing the history enough to do the comparison. From the book I read, across cultures and societies, old model of pimping is very brutal, on both the client and the server sides.
• makeitdouble 2y ago
  > Because clearly it’s not about the content per see which is a dim a dozen and available for free in trove. I think you should step back and look at it with a bit of distance. Is the content they're paying for really the same as you think is available for free, and do they even get it under the same conditions, in morality and circumstance. Not knowing your life, it feels like you could have said the same towards people buying pricy concert tickets when there's royalty free music abundantly available. > commoditised distress [...] often in dire situations The first step to alleviate these specific situations could be to stop marginalizing this kind of content and give them a regular professional status, instead of systematicly pigeon hole it.
  • ant_li0n 2y ago
    > The first step to alleviate these specific situations could be to stop marginalizing this kind of content and give them a regular professional status, instead of systematicly pigeon hole it I dislike arguments made in this vein, it's sortof a way to intellectually dismiss someone's point without addressing it. I share the grandparent poster's concern. Parasocial relationships feed us in a certain way, but do not nourish. Don't get me wrong; I'd rather have OnlyFans than pimps. But that's not the point.
    • makeitdouble 2y ago
      I'm not sure what's to address about parent's point, in that it's already a focus of law enforcement, there will be widely popular polical campaigns to gather people with these inclinations, and it's the standard rethoric of most western societies. I don't see the CrossFit like dogma of "if it's not working just do more of it" as beneficial in this topic. I also don't like looking at a service like OF and only focusing on the extremes.
  • SecretDreams 2y ago
    But the OP is right about the parasocial aspect. OF content and other such platforms is about the personalization aspect. Sure, there's some kinks/fetishes too.. but it is primarily about engagement. In some ways, it's just an explicit, subscription based, social media platform where it feels like you're being treated uniquely... But most times you are not.
    • itishappy 2y ago
      How is that particularly different from, say, concerts? The social aspects are what drives value.
      • SecretDreams 2y ago
        It's the feeling of being more personalized. I see what you're saying about concerts, but it is not the same. Nobody is going to the concert thinking the musician is "talking to them" or making content specifically "for them".
        • itishappy 2y ago
          I think there's significant overlap in both. Most OF content is not personalized. It might be consumed solo, but it's produced for a wider distribution. On the concert side, I feel there's a similar situation where you can pay a little to get the same experience as everyone else, or you can pay a lot to get VIP passes and a personalized experience. Also, both situations are strongly dependent on the size of the fanbase. You're not going to get a personalized show from Taylor Swift or Bella Thorne, but smaller musicians and OF performers target that vibe exclusively.
        • tomhallett 2y ago
          Tom Petty said we were such a great crowd that we should all get on sail boat and go to Tahiti. Felt pretty personal to me. /s
        • HappMacDonald 2y ago
          I'unno every concert I've been to has included the band/singer replacing a placename randomly from the lyrics of one of their songs with the name of whatever town the concert was being held in. shrug
  • marcandre 2y ago
    > it feels like you could have said the same towards people buying pricy concert tickets when there's royalty free music abundantly available. The analogy holds. Most people don't pay concert tickets for the music itself. It's the experience, the crowd, the physical presence of the artists, etc.
    • wubrr 2y ago
      Yeah... if the main goal is to listen to the music - most concerts are a terrible way of doing that.
  • zpeti 2y ago
    > Not knowing your life, it feels like you could have said the same towards people buying pricy concert tickets when there's royalty free music abundantly available. Wow, What a great analogy. That really is almost the same except not with music but sexual attraction.
  • nonethewiser 2y ago
    You can think of it as content, but its parasocial none the less.
  • godelski 2y ago
    > the content they're paying for really the same as you think is available for free, Btw, you misinterpreted the OP
  • not2b 2y ago
    If OnlyFans is really paying 80% of gross to creators, it seems that any kind of "regular professional status" would be worse for them, at least for the top 10%.
• paxys 2y ago
  It's way worse in the case of YouTube/Twitch than OnlyFans IMO. People have been paying for pornography/sex for millennia. It's just part of human nature. On the other hand an 11 year old throwing money at MrBeast...why?
  • magic123_ 2y ago
    While I agree with the general sentiment of your comment, the specific example you used is not really relevant: MrBeast is not on twitch, and his revenue comes from youtube ads and brand partnerships. He also has 'classic' merch and several companies (burgers, chocolate bars), but he doesn't bring in any money from subscriptions/donations the way twitch streamers or onlyfan creators do.
  • raxxorraxor 2y ago
    The vast majority of people will not have ever paid for porn or sex though. Sure sexual indulgement in some form is human nature, but it always is a special group that uses such direct or indirect services.
    • paxys 2y ago
      The vast majority of people are also not paying OnlyFans.
      • raxxorraxor 2y ago
        That is what I meant, I understood you comment as "paying for OnlyFans" is human nature. I would dispute that as a general statement because I believe it is a very special demographic that does that.
        • paxys 2y ago
          Sure, but that "special demographic" has stayed consistent throughout human history. Which is why this entire market has existed for a similar period.
• tjs8rj 2y ago
  We’re the cohort putting our hand on the stove to remember you get burned. Vices like gambling, obscenity, prostitution, drugs, etc are banned or heavily controlled societies over because they have significant negative cultural effects. “Why do YOU care what other people do in their private lives?” was always a stupid justification: if everyone in your community is addicted to vices, that DOES affect me.
  • hiddencost 2y ago
    Obscenity?
    • lazide 2y ago
      Do you think 2 girls 1 cup, blue waffle, or ‘the jar’ helped anyone in society to see? If so, how? Should they be required watching in elementary school? If not, why not?
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      • samtho 2y ago
        Supposing the premise that these things were entirely unhelpful to society, I would argue that the obscenity specifically is not what makes these things unhelpful.
        • lazide 2y ago
          Then what was?
          • samtho 2y ago
            Depends on how you define helpful or how much of a requirement for content to actually be “helpful”. A strict definition might require content to have academic or intellectual value (implied by the remark about it being shown in an academic context) but this would also exclude a vast majority of non “obscene” content. Further, if you could swap the obscene elements for non obscene elements, I would argue the “value” of the content, as measured by its helpfulness, stays the same. This all moot, however, as it’s likely not the right conversation to have. There is more useful discussion to be had on harm caused as a result rather than any sort of value judgement.
• raxxorraxor 2y ago
  I think it also is quite a special demographic, which is hard to nail down. There are a lot of people that don't have many social contacts but would never pay anyone for only fans. Perhaps you need to have a special character trait to be able to use such services. But while there are successful people on only fans with either more or less clothes on, the vast majority of creators probably sell their dignity for a few dollars. Agreed that there is something fishy about these new pimps. I guess there are still the conventional pimps too, but they now call themselves manager.
  • hungie 2y ago
    This framing, "sell their dignity", is your moral judgement (coming from your cultural, religious, or some other) background. I don't see it as any less dignified than any other work. You sell your labor to someone who pays you less than the value it produces. Now, if you want to argue that median creators get payed only a tiny fraction of their time, and like Twitch/YouTube it's a losing game for most, then we're on the same page.
    • xlix 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • dymk 2y ago
        That depends on if you think your dignity is predicated on not having a buttplug in your ass, or not doing acts for money, or some combination of both. At the end (ha) of the day, a job is a job. You get to decide if you think it's demeaning or not.
    • raxxorraxor 2y ago
      You are correct, my value judgements are very likely influenced by my cultural background and experience, as are yours. I do live in a country where sex work is legal. There is still a darker sides to the trade. I think customers do lose even more dignity. Or someone who does sex work because it is "empowering" compared to someone that is forced into it.
• mensetmanusman 2y ago
  This has been true since television. My parents have nearly zero community but watch TV all day.
• agumonkey 2y ago
  The shocking part is how new generation have a fully rational reinterpretation of all this, they call it "ethical sex". It's beautiful to them (probably in contrast to the boat loads of issues IRL social and intimate relationships can bring with them). And anything not aligned with their view causes a lot of angry arguments.
  • sulandor 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • GreenWatermelon 2y ago
      Completely irrelevant and without substance comment. You don't even know the parent but you an unsubstantiated claim for the sake 9f argument.
      • sulandor 2y ago
        no one has even gone as far as decided to even look more like
    • kingkawn 2y ago
      What a defensively unhinged injection of a broad generalization.
      • slackfan 2y ago
        Snarky defensiveness rationalized as wit or "owning" the conversational partner.
        • sulandor 2y ago
          passive agressive deraling of conversation
          • slackfan 2y ago
• sulandor 2y ago
  > parasocial relationships sounds like you meant "professional courtesy"
• _the_inflator 2y ago
  Human reward system is magically and weird at the same time. To what extremes some visuals and sounds can bring people is fascinating.
• vunderba 2y ago
  Although Onlyfans is certainly more exploitative, I would argue that this concept of one-way parasocial relationships has existed since basically the dawn of humanity and likely has roots to our earliest fundamental tribalistic nature. I mean look at the extremely popular K-pop bands, fans get insanely invested into these groups, following them, bringing glowsticks to show support, etc. Or the entire Japanese idol movement for that matter. Or think about how people stand in line for hours just to get the signature of somebody at a convention. I think this is just the way a lot of people are wired. I don't know if it's bad or a good thing, it's just something I've noticed.
  • zug_zug 2y ago
    I agree. I do remember a study that people often think label their more popular friends as their "best" friends, but if you go ask THOSE friends, they label THEIR even more popular friends as their "BEST" friends. It's often asymmetrical. Though tbh going too far down these rabbitholes usually isn't healthy/productive imo.
  • ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    Or how nerds are willing to argue about the superiority of Linux vs Mac vs Windows while having only faint notions of how to use each to their fullest extent or the workings of their internals. We on HN aren't immune from unthinking tribalism.
  • RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    I don’t think it’s new per see nor that OnlyFans is unique in this. The K-pop exemple you bring forward is good and I guess you could see the Hollywood star system as a kind of precursor. I still think there are multiple differences. One is how OnlyFans has successfully turned everyday people into this source of para-social fixation for a multitude of small communities and somehow massified the issue. The other and the main one for me is that in both the star system or the K-pop industry the system is a mean to an end - selling movie tickets or albums - while OnlyFans genuinely sells the illusion of closeness.
    • 2y ago
• qingcharles 2y ago
  This view isn't matched by the stats. I have a friend who is a successful OF model and only a fraction of one percent of her subscribers ever DM her. A lot of them subscribe, see what they want and then immediately delete their accounts. There's no apparent relationship between her fans and her, for the most part.
  • whoopdedo 2y ago
    >subscribe ... and then immediately delete their accounts Sounds like credit card fraud to me. Bots using stolen cards to scrape OF content. Also easily verifies that the number works before attempting a pricier purchase.
    • alsetmusic 2y ago
      > Sounds like credit card fraud to me. Bots using stolen cards to scrape OF content. Also easily verifies that the number works before attempting a pricier purchase. I’ve subscribed for one month to two different creators just to check the content. Neither was interesting enough to maintain a subscription. I don’t think the described behavior sounds nefarious.
      • taikobo 2y ago
        The part that they delete their account immediately afterwards?
        • paulryanrogers 2y ago
          Perhaps to avoid unintended rebill or make it less likely for a loved one to discover it.
        • aqme28 2y ago
          Buyers remorse after purchasing pornography? I don't know why you're surprised.
          • 2y ago
• jimmaswell 2y ago
  > clearly it’s not about the content per see which is a dim a dozen and available for free in trove. The free stuff isn't always as good, especially if you want something of a specific niche (fursuits, cosplay, etc). A lot of creators only upload cut-down vidros or "trailers" to free sites with a link to their OF. At least in my case, I simply see it like the Patreon model. I like supporting some of my favorite artists, especially with something like an ongoing comic series I'll get previews of and vote on polls to influence. Onlyfans is the same if I particularly like some creator. It's great that we can directly support content creators of all kinds now.
• marxisttemp 2y ago
  I feel this way about strip clubs. I’m pretty libertine and think that if you can make money dancing naked, more power to ya, but the few times I’ve been dragged to a strip club all I can focus on is the clientele who as you say largely seem to be chasing this dark, parasocial connection that can never be what they need it to be.
  • lambdasquirrel 2y ago
    At least at a strip club you know what you're getting. After what I've seen in group therapy, I'd prefer a strip club to a church.
  • morkalork 2y ago
    Burlesque shows are a 100% more fun than an actual strip club especially if they incorporate some good ol slapstick vaudeville routines in between the strip teases. The audience is also way less greasy.
• sesm 2y ago
  > clearly it’s not about the content per see which is a dim a dozen and available for free in trove. I think there is a darker side there: many of those subscribers are minors, who discover this kind of content for the first time. That's why OF models stream on Twitch to expand their audience, there are plenty of kids who came there for Minecraft, but will end up subscribing to OF with mom's credit card.
  • DiscourseFan 2y ago
    So we should have a service, instead, that pairs up horny teenagers or puts them in group settings where they can explore their sexuality in a more directly social way? Or what do you suggest, that they don’t have an outlet for these urges?
    • sesm 2y ago
      I don't think I have a solution. I'm sure that Twitch is fully aware of this and gets their cut from OF subscriptions that came from Twitch links.
      • DiscourseFan 2y ago
        I have always advocated for legally regulated sex work that is provided to the population for free or a very low price through a scheme like national or universal heath care, which would immediately solve all problems related to sexual frustration and social isolation, but I think the christian conservatives would rather have school shootings and OnlyFans
• naming_the_user 2y ago
  A more accurate description I think is that "we" have bifurcated. It's another element of political division. Almost everyone I know thinks that things like OnlyFans are embarrassing at best, and disgusting at worst. Sure, most of us look at porn, but admitting that you've paid for it and _especially_ admitting that you have a "favourite camgirl" or whatever would be properly cringe.
• derdi 2y ago
  > [...] for parasocial relationships. Because clearly it’s not about the content per see which is a dim a dozen and available for free in trove. I think you're making assumptions about people's motivations that aren't consistent with evidence. Pornhub and similar sites are full of content that is a dime a dozen and available for free and does not suggest any kind of "parasocial" relationship with the viewer. It's just two or more people fucking. And it's the same as it was ten years ago. And yet... More of that content keeps being made. Porn production companies exist. Pornstars making money for fucking on camera exist. Clearly there are people willing to pay for new porn that will just end up on free-to-view sites anyway. Your mental model of "it's all about the parasocial relationship" doesn't explain these facts. Thus your mental model can't be the whole truth. I suspect it's at most a fairly small part of the truth.
  • marcandre 2y ago
    I think OP's point is that people aren't (directly) paying for Pornhub, although I realize some people are paying some site that make porn, but the amounts remain smaller than what people pay directly on OF.
• kreims 2y ago
  The disturbing societal implications speak for themselves. Personally, I suspect a significant fraction of transactions on Only Fans or “influencer” platforms are money laundering or social engineering campaigns by deeply resourced actors. There may be a large number of clients that are bots making random subscriptions to keep the network alive and large enough to make moving targeted funds harder to observe. A plausible scenario might be an FBI agent paying a confidential informant without creating an unexplained income stream. The FBI and friends disclosed spending around $0.5B on informants. The truth could be more. We don’t know what other agencies around the world spend. I imagine they aren’t putting cash in brown bags under park benches.
  • thefounder 2y ago
    You would be surprised how many people pay for OF content. The novelty is that the clients are picked using mainstream social media. Most actually believe they talk with the influencer while in reality the “influencer” doesn’t even know where its content is distributed(not that she cares). Chatters and voice-overs are the norm.
  • duckmysick 2y ago
    To clarify, in this scenario, the confidential informant would be a streamer or an influencer - a person that has a sizeable following, operates in public, and creates a lot of attention? And that there's a large network of such informants and none of them were compromised (had their true nature exposed in public)?
• riedel 2y ago
  It is equally disturbing if museums see themselves forced to to move to forced to only fans in protest because of prudish US corps governing the web [0]. I think if there would be more middle ground it would be less of a business model. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28887142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28887142
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• swozey 2y ago
  I have an onlyfans and I constantly see people talking about this parasocial relationship thing and how people are managing accounts. Maybe for the big people but I know a lot of onlyfans models by way of working in the industry for 20 years. My first sysadmin job was for a porn company where I interacted with talent a lot. I don't know anyone amateur with social media management. Anyway, a lot of people who have never used the site before think it's mostly what you said. It's not. The parasocial stuff is tiny unless you're doing specific kinks for people. What I tell most people not familiar with the industry is that it's usually more like seeing someone in real life (NOT a porn star, celeb, etc, amateurs only) that you've got a crush on naked for only $10/mo. It has the amateur thing a lot of people love. Another reddit comment is always "Why pay when porn is free?" Have you never had a crush on someone? And amateur porn is probably the biggest "kink" I feel weird even calling it a kink, I'm practically on the "who doesnt like amateur porn??" end. That's 90% of the customers. Lots of people who think a youtuber or instagram or whatever not professionally showing themselves off is just hot and want to see them naked. I've never spoken to a single customer. I'm a straight man and most of mine are men and I have no interest or desperation for money to do para/kink stuff. I really don't get why so many people think onlyfans is about messaging talent back and forth. It's kind of annoying to constantly read because it always comes from non-OF users who have this weird morality/ethics problem with sex work. It makes no sense if you know anything about porn. Most people jack off in silence and close their laptop and there aren't thousands of onlyfans models with media managers. Most are 18-25yo women who work corporate jobs or bartenders and have their own life to live. They treat it like youtube, upload content a few times a week and never look at messages. Don't kink shame, stop with the "I don't know why anyone uses this instead of that, you're a loser if you pay for porn" thing. You like what you like, other people like what they like.
• mcphage 2y ago
  > Because clearly it’s not about the content per see which is a dim a dozen and available for free in trove. Naked people aren't fungible.
• sharpshadow 2y ago
  It’s crazy right!? Sex sells everywhere. I’ve read or listend to a idea that because sex is strongly regulated in the US there is more happening in the hidden. Edit: Maybe there is a correlation between Gamers and Porn.
• Rapzid 2y ago
  It's particularly bad with Twitch and YouTube streams IMHO. The economics and experience of being in a large stream chat is depressing. The entire system is geared around feeling unheard, unseen and paying to be heard or seen. 20k people shouting into a a void. Paying to get a badge signaling you subscribed. Paying to highlight messages hoping they are read. Hanging on for that hope this popular person gives you 10 seconds of attention. That's the reality of the depressing industry. And that's how the streamers and steaming providers like it. Ever wonder why the stream chat experience has never been improved? ;) Oh, and the toxic communities it breeds.
  • Muromec 2y ago
    So the internet enshittified even the idea of strip clubs. Now that's an achievement.
• Narhem 2y ago
  You could say that about anything related to the internet. But yes when shown extreme examples it’s obvious how unokay it is. As a person who tried to start a startup but had been hacked and assaulted by the organizations who seem to maintain their monopoly by whatever methods they can use it’s more like a mob of pimps than a single pimp.