4 ms·

Fiddling with our "reward centre" does not seem like it can have a localised effect to a couple of unwanted behaviours. I'm not sure we are braced for how wides

Fiddling with our "reward centre" does not seem like it can have a localised effect to a couple of unwanted behaviours. I'm not sure we are braced for how widespread or impactful the other consequences might be especially if a vast percentage of the population take them life. For example, could they significantly change voting preference? Why wouldn't they? Do we not respond to political messages with our "reward centre"? Will we find political charisma more or less entrancing? Will we find calls for vengeance and punishment more or less attractive? Does tinkering with desire and reward dull our emotional response? Will we find compassionate appeals to help less fortunate more or less attractive? Does "enhanced control" manifest as a political preference for rational altruism or as machiavellian selfishness?

amelius 2y ago
If taking a substance removes our desire to shop, then I'm sure there are powers in this world that will stop it from happening.
- hsbauauvhabzb 2y ago
  Illicit drug trade has demonstrated that even long term prohibition does not work.
  - gryfft 2y ago
    Depends on the molecule. Cannabis can be produced by any teenager in a closet with a grow light. Quaaludes on the other hand are now impossible to come by.
    - cassianoleal 2y ago
      I imagine the reason for the popularity of Quaaludes was easy access. Remove that, and the myriad other substances available become more attractive, be it MDMA, LSD, magic mushrooms, 2-CB, Ketamine, cocaine, heroin, or a number of others.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      The interesting thing is the rise of fentanyl in the wake of marijuana legalization. The cartels were making tons of money off illegal marijuana. When marijuana went legal, a lot of that money went away. But the cartels already had this distribution channel and weren't about to go legit. So they found this other way of making money with the existing channels they had.
      - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
        And China is happily funding fentanyl as low intensity warfare on the united states, supplying the raw materials and likely providing "other" support. It really does highlight how failed the drug war is. The only effective weapon against rampant cartel violence is decriminalization and legalization. I just watched Sicaro over the weekend, yeah about 4 years late. The thing is a right wing wet dream take on the drug war, and the interesting thing is it's exactly like the vibe that came out of Vietnam war, another failed war. "The politicians won't let us use unrestrained violence to win". Of course, both the Vietnam were and even more so the drug war are founded on completely illegitimate policy foundations, and only continue because of budgetary territory defense and a lack of desire of unelected officials to maintain power.
  - soulofmischief 2y ago
    The point is preventing regular mass consumption.
- davedx 2y ago
  Sell AMZN and buy LLY
carlosjobim 2y ago
It strikes me as an ideology of hatred towards humans to argue against something so incredibly beneficial for the individual in this way. Yes, being free from addiction will certainly change the way people vote and their political outlook on life, just as exercise and eating healthy will do. It is not selfish to improve yourself and it does not make you sick that somebody else is healthy. You know very well that people who dedicate themselves to being healthy are very eager to help others as well.
- from-nibly 2y ago
  It strikes me as incredibly naïve to think that we've just stumbled into an absolute cure for addiction, no caveats. That's second coming level of world change from "just take this drug once a day". Being cautious about <insert new thing> is not hatred towards humans.
  - davedx 2y ago
    Yeah, isn’t that how the (most recent) opioid epidemic got started - a pharma company telling everyone their new opioid was way less addictive - almost a sort of miracle cure?
    - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
      Sure, but it’s also how antibiotics started, and that time it turned out that the miracle was real. It’s not something we can presumptively rule out.
      - from-nibly 2y ago
        Being cautious isn't presumptively ruling it out.
    - phil21 2y ago
      The difference here is everyone involved in the opioid epidemic knew opioids were addictive. They just enjoyed the CYA aspect of it. It’s like sexual harassment training. Literally no one needs to be “educated” that sexually harassing your coworkers is bad. It’s done to cover the companies ass and for no other reason. The drug companies offered that cover and the rest of the establishment knowingly used it to cover their bad actions. No doctor prescribing hydrocodone thought it was a non-addictive substance. Perhaps there will be some severe second order long term side effects with GLP-1 drugs. Time will tell, but considering we are nearly 20 years in on these and on 4th and 5th generation therapies I suspect we would have had a small hint of those by now. I’m extremely cautiously optimistic about these drugs. They seem to be an antidote to the poison that is the modern western lifestyle.
eli_gottlieb 2y ago
Don't worry: we mostly don't have a "reward center". If you're thinking of ventral striatum, it does something more like motor vigor. https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262044059/vigor/ https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262044059/vigor/

amelius 2y ago

If taking a substance removes our desire to shop, then I'm sure there are powers in this world that will stop it from happening.

hsbauauvhabzb 2y ago
Illicit drug trade has demonstrated that even long term prohibition does not work.
- gryfft 2y ago
  Depends on the molecule. Cannabis can be produced by any teenager in a closet with a grow light. Quaaludes on the other hand are now impossible to come by.
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    I imagine the reason for the popularity of Quaaludes was easy access. Remove that, and the myriad other substances available become more attractive, be it MDMA, LSD, magic mushrooms, 2-CB, Ketamine, cocaine, heroin, or a number of others.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    The interesting thing is the rise of fentanyl in the wake of marijuana legalization. The cartels were making tons of money off illegal marijuana. When marijuana went legal, a lot of that money went away. But the cartels already had this distribution channel and weren't about to go legit. So they found this other way of making money with the existing channels they had.
    - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
      And China is happily funding fentanyl as low intensity warfare on the united states, supplying the raw materials and likely providing "other" support. It really does highlight how failed the drug war is. The only effective weapon against rampant cartel violence is decriminalization and legalization. I just watched Sicaro over the weekend, yeah about 4 years late. The thing is a right wing wet dream take on the drug war, and the interesting thing is it's exactly like the vibe that came out of Vietnam war, another failed war. "The politicians won't let us use unrestrained violence to win". Of course, both the Vietnam were and even more so the drug war are founded on completely illegitimate policy foundations, and only continue because of budgetary territory defense and a lack of desire of unelected officials to maintain power.
- soulofmischief 2y ago
  The point is preventing regular mass consumption.
davedx 2y ago
Sell AMZN and buy LLY

carlosjobim 2y ago

It strikes me as an ideology of hatred towards humans to argue against something so incredibly beneficial for the individual in this way. Yes, being free from addiction will certainly change the way people vote and their political outlook on life, just as exercise and eating healthy will do. It is not selfish to improve yourself and it does not make you sick that somebody else is healthy. You know very well that people who dedicate themselves to being healthy are very eager to help others as well.

from-nibly 2y ago
It strikes me as incredibly naïve to think that we've just stumbled into an absolute cure for addiction, no caveats. That's second coming level of world change from "just take this drug once a day". Being cautious about <insert new thing> is not hatred towards humans.
- davedx 2y ago
  Yeah, isn’t that how the (most recent) opioid epidemic got started - a pharma company telling everyone their new opioid was way less addictive - almost a sort of miracle cure?
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    Sure, but it’s also how antibiotics started, and that time it turned out that the miracle was real. It’s not something we can presumptively rule out.
    - from-nibly 2y ago
      Being cautious isn't presumptively ruling it out.
  - phil21 2y ago
    The difference here is everyone involved in the opioid epidemic knew opioids were addictive. They just enjoyed the CYA aspect of it. It’s like sexual harassment training. Literally no one needs to be “educated” that sexually harassing your coworkers is bad. It’s done to cover the companies ass and for no other reason. The drug companies offered that cover and the rest of the establishment knowingly used it to cover their bad actions. No doctor prescribing hydrocodone thought it was a non-addictive substance. Perhaps there will be some severe second order long term side effects with GLP-1 drugs. Time will tell, but considering we are nearly 20 years in on these and on 4th and 5th generation therapies I suspect we would have had a small hint of those by now. I’m extremely cautiously optimistic about these drugs. They seem to be an antidote to the poison that is the modern western lifestyle.

eli_gottlieb 2y ago

Don't worry: we mostly don't have a "reward center". If you're thinking of ventral striatum, it does something more like motor vigor. https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262044059/vigor/ https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262044059/vigor/