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Starlink Defies Order to Block X in Brazil
- cjpearson 2y agoIs this a principled defense of free speech or a case of a man treating ostensibly independent companies as divisions of his personal conglomerate?
- r0ckarong 2y agoThe only speech this man wants to be free is his own.
- teekert 2y agoDo you have any examples where he blocks other people's speech?
- timeon 2y agoFor example: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-65609123 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-65609123
- defrost 2y agoOpposition parties and activists in India and Turkey - both at the request of the governments there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41387061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41387061 There are other examples, those two should suffice.
- teekert 2y agoHe's selective wrt which governments he is giving into, he's not blocking anything himself. Would you rather: He obeys all governments? Obeys no governments?
- defrost 2y agoYou asked for examples where he has blocked peoples speech. I provided examples of where he has blocked peoples speech.
- teekert 2y agoSorry, I was asking in context of OP "The only speech this man wants to be free is his own.", seems like there is no evidence of him bringing this statement into effect, I was looking for such evidence, as in: He blocked someone by himself for himself.
- defrost 2y agoIt appears that Musk is currently aligned with more extreme right wing conservative voices, he appears to tweet and retweet in their support, he blocks the oposition of such governments in Turkey and India, he more recently seems to support both Trump and Bolsonaro, both right wing election deniers who encouraged attempts to overthrow elections. I have no particular insight into Musk, I speak only to the observation that he appears to support some voices over others and as such that is "his voice" - those who say things he supports and whose opponents he blocks.
- EasyMark 2y agoI think the point is that he shouldn’t lie about selective “free speech” in Brazil he seems all for it to the point of getting kicked out of the country. With more friendly regimes he is happy to censor other voices than the official “state”voice. I think people are looking for consistency and honesty rather than the charade his currently projecting.
- dazilcher 2y agoSo he's a hypocrite. Like most people are. Doesn't change the fact that in this case he happens to be fighting a good fight.
- ofrzeta 2y agoHow about this? https://newrepublic.com/post/177936/twitter-suspends-accounts-journalists-critical-elon-musk https://newrepublic.com/post/177936/twitter-suspends-account... "This is at least the fifth time that X, under Musk, has purged accounts that are the slightest bit critical of him, his friends, or causes he supports"
- teekert 2y agoOk yeah, that's pretty bad indeed.
- mike_hearn 2y agoThat article says the suspensions lasted only a few hours. In no way were they "purged", and the first three named accounts all are highly active. MintPress News journalist: https://twitter.com/alanrmacleod https://twitter.com/alanrmacleod (active, posted in the last hour) Intercept journalist: https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein (active, posted 46 minutes ago) Texas Observer journalist: https://x.com/stevanzetti https://x.com/stevanzetti (active, posted 2 hours ago) If these are the best examples of Musk engaging in censorship then he must be doing a very fair job indeed! A more likely explanation is that the suspensions were related to anti-botting activity, as they came back from suspension with fewer followers than before. Journalists buying Twitter followers is not unheard of, unfortunately: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/journalists-struggle-explain-why-they-bought-fake-twitter-followers-n843871 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/journalists-struggle-ex...
- r0ckarong 2y agohttps://freespeechproject.georgetown.edu/tracker-entries/elon-musk-fires-twitter-employees-for-criticizing-him/ https://freespeechproject.georgetown.edu/tracker-entries/elo... https://electrek.co/2022/12/20/tesla-wont-tolerate-dissent-against-elon-musk-fired-two-employees/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/20/tesla-wont-tolerate-dissent-a... https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-staff-slam-elon-musk-did-you-bother-to-learn-2022-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-staff-slam-elon-musk... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/former-ceo-tesla-criticized-musk-he-easily-angry-likes-fire-employees https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/former-ceo-tesla-criticized-m... Oh wait, you mean suppress people ON TWITTER? This is an entirely different search query.
- danw1979 2y agoI think it’s probably both.
- seydor 2y agoIt's one thing leading to the other. It is what it is. Are the judge's (possibly illegal) moves motivated by interpretation of the law or by personal vendetta? Hard to tell , but i'm glad for less censorship.
- pavlov 2y agoAs the past two years of Twitter's evolution have shown, more power to Elon Musk actually leads to more censorship. He's running the social media service like a kingdom where lèse-majesté is the gravest offense, promoting himself and blocking any topics that he doesn't personally like (including the existence of his own daughter who posts on Threads now). Old Twitter had flawed content moderation processes, but at least there was a process.
- seydor 2y ago[flagged]
- hkt 2y agoViolent?
- seydor 2y agoA judges' orders are delivered via the threat or the use of violence.
- ivewonyoung 2y agoHere's some examples of the judge's overreach from a 2022 NYT article. https://archive.is/plQFT https://archive.is/plQFT Police showing up at 6am to search your house because you happened to be in whatsapp group where someone else joked about a coup is definitely violence.
- sebazzz 2y agoThere is freedom of opinion, not freedom of speech.
- piva00 2y agoThe court orders for Twitter in Brazil were way more tame and based on judicial procedures than orders that Elon followed from Turkey and other less democratic countries. There's no visible rhyme or reason why he's fighting the Brazilian courts much harder than orders from other less democratic countries, something else is happening unrelated to free speech or any lip service he pays to.
- boesboes 2y ago> other less democratic countries That's your rhyme and reason if you ask me, he just loooooves (wannabe) dictators
- seydor 2y agoHe may be doing it for personal ego reasons. But OTOH it is pointless to 'fight' the judicial system of e.g. Russia, or flawed democracies like Turkey which stage a coup. OTOH brazil is somewhat more democratic and it makes sense to appeal to their democratic institutions. <Mandatory "i don't like elon" to avoid flagging />
- piva00 2y ago> But OTOH it is pointless to 'fight' the judicial system of e.g. Russia, or flawed democracies like Turkey which stage a coup. OTOH brazil is somewhat more democratic and it makes sense to appeal to their democratic institutions. Even when giving Elon some leeway to have reasonable doubt I still believe the argument falls flat when he attempts to coat it with his "free speech defender" persona against Brazil but not against dictatorships. If he's willing to challenge Brazilian courts to the point where Twitter becomes unavailable to the public why wouldn't he do the same in places with much less freedom of speech? It simply doesn't make sense using his public rationale, if he was a free speech absolutist he wouldn't allow Twitter to exist in places where free speech is impossible and is gagged by dictators' court orders. He's fighting Brazilian courts way too hard given his stance on Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc. Is he a puppet? Has he ulterior motives in Brazil? We can't really know from public information but that there's something fishy and wrong going under wraps, it is.
- 2y ago
- teekert 2y agoLooks to me like Brazil is treating ostensibly independent companies as divisions of Musks personal conglomerate. They blocked the funds of Starlink because of X related business. So why are you saying this?
- Beatus 2y agoWasn’t it because Starlink refused to implement the court ordered ban of X?
- hereme888 2y agoThe former
- fmajid 2y agoYou will find Musk's pretend "free-speech absolutism" is highly selective, and only applies to far-right voices. He's repeatedly censored his critics and journalists on his platform.
- 6nf 2y agoExample?
- malermeister 2y agohttps://theintercept.com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-ngo-antifascist/ https://theintercept.com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-n...
- mike_hearn 2y agoX and US law both have rules against incitement of imminent violence. It's one of the only exceptions to the First Amendment. X extends that to making violent threats in general. Those accounts were doing the latter and sometimes the former. The @vps_reports account named in the first tweet in your story is a good example. The Intercept claims they were suspended for engaging in "journalism", "organizing" and "documenting extremism". X claims they were suspended for making violent threats. If we follow links a bit further we see what sort of tweets @vps_reports was making: https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1596074770193604609/photo/1 https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1596074770193604609/pho... > "One last thing. ChayaRaichik10 should live in fear for the rest of her days. It's only fair. Put the PHOBIA in her transphobia." (there are several more examples like that) It's not surprising that such people would fall afoul of an anti-threat rule if enforced fairly. Pre-Musk, people like that could make violent threats on Twitter, or even coordinate mob violence there, as long as they were threatening right wing people. Musk fixed that. The Intercept is being dishonest.
- throw0101d 2y ago> Is this a principled defense of free speech or a case of a man treating ostensibly independent companies as divisions of his personal conglomerate? Musk was happy to block Twitter content for Erdoğan before the 2023 Turkish election,[0][1] and block Ukraine from using it to hit the Russian navy.[2] [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/musk-defends-enabling-turkish-censorship-on-twitter-calling-it-his-choice/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/musk-defends-ena... [1] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/twitter-musk-censors-turkey-election-erdogan https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/twitter-musk-censors... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/musk-stopped-ukraine-attack-russian-fleet-starlink-rcna104019 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/musk-stopped-ukraine-atta...
- postepowanieadm 2y agoUkrainians used twitter to hit the russian navy?
- jowea 2y agoPrevious poster meant Starlink usage by Ukraine.
- monkfish328 2y agoA non-paywalled article on the topic - https://www.japantimes.co.jp/business/2024/09/02/tech/musk-starlink-block-x-brazil/?ref=biztoc.com https://www.japantimes.co.jp/business/2024/09/02/tech/musk-s...
- malermeister 2y ago[flagged]
- redog 2y agoEver hear about the Kessler effect?
- danw1979 2y agoDude, they are commenting on hacker news… someone brings up Kessler syndrome in basically every post about starlink or even space in general. It’s up there with microplastics and e-ink displays as a HN meme.
- hifikuno 2y agoWell, I'm one of the ten thousand today because it's new to me!
- malermeister 2y agoYup, it's the reason we shouldn't be shooting up Satellites for frivolous reasons like internet in the first place.
- rowanG077 2y agoI really don't know what to tell you if you think one of the most practical human inventions in history is frivolous...
- greesil 2y agoDo we need 10000 communication satellites compared to what a terrestrial network can provide? Cellular networks reutilize spectrum much more efficiently than space based systems. I get that there niche applications like rural broadband and military communications. I have no idea if Kessler syndrome is a real possibility but if it is then it doesn't seem worth it.
- simonhorlick 2y agoX is turning into a wasteland of angry people and bots. Bluesky is much more refreshing, similar to the old twitter.
- Razengan 2y ago{oldPlace} is bad. {newPlace} is better. An eternal cycle.
- verdverm 2y agoBluesky (ATProto) and Mastodon (ActivityPub) are designed differently, federated I'm partial to ATProto, especially when it comes to user choice for algos, moderation, data hosting, and UI. There have been a few good HN posts lately, and in particular the comments therein
- incrudible 2y agoTwitter is far from a wasteland. Nothing that matters is exclusively on Bluesky, but a lot of it is on Twitter. The "old media" heavily relies on Twitter, too. Anger is a major driver of engagement on any medium, it's only natural that this shows through on Twitter. Alternative platforms appear to be more civil because they're islands of echo-chambers. The anger is still there, it's just directed at the more abstract out-group, rather than any individuals that are part of the conversation.
- mschuster91 2y ago> Alternative platforms appear to be more civil because they're islands of echo-chambers. The anger is still there, it's just directed at the more abstract out-group, rather than any individuals that are part of the conversation. I'd say there are less bots and Putin-financed "fifth column" groups around on the Twitter alternatives, and that is the key thing. The porn spammers that make up half of the "likes" notifications on Twitter just don't see bsky or the fediverse as juicy targets and Instagram/Threads has far better tooling to yeet them, and the Putin propaganda army knows that the utter majority of people on bsky/fediverse are progressives where their points just don't appeal. Social media would be way less toxic if the Western world had yeeted Russia off of the Internet after 2014.
- flotzam 2y agoJust how important are the ground stations in Brazil? (I don't mean the end user terminals.) If Starlink will basically continue to work well enough if those are seized, it seems like the obvious next steps are going to be crypto/stablecoin payments and a focus on small form factor terminals like Starlink Mini that can bypass customs.
- Sayrus 2y agoAnd then Starlink users get fined or arrested and Starlink Minis get seized. Also how good does it look for an international company to sell as evading customs and imports taxes. Crypto and stablecoin don't make the physical reality of owning such a device disappear.
- flotzam 2y agoThey probably wouldn't sell terminals straight to Brazilian customers but rely on resale to keep their hands clean. I'm not sure how feasible first finding and then fining/arresting owners would be. The proposed VPN fines were seen as outrageously disproportionate.
- diegoholiveira 2y agoStarlink is offering free service to current customers until they can access their bank accounts again.
- diegoholiveira 2y ago> Just how important are the ground stations in Brazil? Is used by the military, hospitals and schools on remote places on the amazon rainforest.
- matheusmoreira 2y agoHilariously, the brazilian military published a report on the impact of Starlink's blocking to their operations. One would think this would get them to fund a proper space program.
- 2y ago
- orwin 2y agoThis storyline was a rare case of me supporting Elon, but once again, he goes too far, childishly, for his ego. He is just proving a lot of people i don't particularly like right, that billionaires are supranational powers. Which does support a very marxist view on capitalism (and productivism sadly), that it enable money to create power above political power.
- malermeister 2y agoMarx was right and people like Musk and Thiel are living proof.
- mrmlz 2y agoHaha - oh no, he is going to far with allowing free speech. The sender and the tone is more important to you I guess?
- boesboes 2y ago[flagged]
- mrmlz 2y agoI dont care about his motives - why should i ?
- malermeister 2y agoBecause he's a huge hypocrite and only uses the excuse of free speech to enable right wing radicals, while not granting it to anyone he disagrees with.
- malermeister 2y agoWas it free speech when he banned a bunch of leftists for disagreeing with his views?
- mrmlz 2y ago
- TibbityFlanders 2y agoIt's frightening how authoritarian the Left has become around the world. Ambiguous laws about'hate' seem poised to protect the world from thought crimes by curtailing basic human rights. In this context Musk is right and has the power to bring change. He will lose a lot of that power under a Harris presidency that has advertised it plans to continue the crusade against freedom of speech.
- WhereIsTheTruth 2y agoHow is preventing a color revolution "authoritarian"? https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/01/08/brazil-bolsanaro-twitter-facebook/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/01/08/brazil-... https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202112/1240540.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202112/1240540.shtml You'd want the white house to do the same if China would want to do something similar with, let's say, TikTok ;)
- TibbityFlanders 2y ago[dead]
- hereme888 2y ago*would lose a lot of that power. I'm hoping for a different outcome and the world turns in a better direction than forcing "Democrats" to vote for an un-nominated candidate.
- sebazzz 2y agoWow, just wow. The gloves are off. I wouldn’t expect anything this naive on HN. There is a difference between freedom of expression (freedom of opinion) and freedom of speech. The latter contains the former, but is much more than that because freedom of expression stops where hate and discrimination begins.
- TibbityFlanders 2y agoThe human right of free speech protects hate, disinformation, and a host of other horrible words one might say. That's because hate and disinformation are ambiguous terms used be tyrants to arrest dissidents. So long as someone isn't making true threats, or inciting imminent lawlessness, humans have a right to their own thoughts and the expression of their ideas. Your definition of hate is bit universal and will only lead to tyranny.
- INTPenis 2y agoBrazil should just sponsor their own fediverse nodes. But it's a lot easier to just block something in their national ISP. Complicated long term solutions are not interesting when they're trying to extort Elon for money.
- piva00 2y ago> Complicated long term solutions are not interesting when they're trying to extort Elon for money. There's no extortion, the fines are simply due to the company not following courts' decisions. The money itself is inconsequential, the fines are too low to be of any importance to the Brazilian government, they just want Elon to follow the law. Or do you believe a company should have the power to be above the law in a jurisdiction they operate in?
- olivierduval 2y agoSorry I don't get: how is possible to find anybody defending Musk when the Supreme Court of a democracy ruled to exclude X from the country ? Free speech is a good thing AS LONG AS it respect the country laws. In France, the People decided democratically (through their elected representatives) against some kinds of so-called "free speech" (for example: racism apology). That's OUR choice, on OUR territory (like it or not: rule your own country but not mine). Why should X be allowed to refuse to respect the France laws on the french territory (resp. Europe) ? And if a Court find that X doesn't respect the country law, why should X be seen as a "free speech" leader and not just as an illegal company ? For me, Musk attitude is just plain bullying as usual, and I just hope that Brazil will be able to negociate with US to punish him as he deserve for being such an (insert your prefered insult here)
- hereme888 2y agoThe judge is violating the constitution of his own country and engaging in censorship of political opponents.
- olivierduval 2y agoIs X a bralizian institution ? I don't think so... so X has no right to oppose this decision ! If the judge decision is illegal, that's the problem of the brazilian political and law system, and of the brazilian People. But X is not a brazilian citizen AFAIK... so it either follow the rules, leave the country or is illegal. Moreover, when Starlink refuse to respect a court order, Starlink is although a problem (be it another Musk property or not)
- diegoholiveira 2y ago> Is X a bralizian institution ? I don't think so... so X has no right to oppose this decision ! They have the right because you can appeal to the court. The problem is: it’s the Supreme Court, your appeal would be judged by the same judge. > If the judge decision is illegal, that's the problem of the brazilian political and law system, and of the brazilian People. True, but since the Supreme Court is also the only court where politicians can be judged, no one will do anything to stop them.
- batushka5 2y agoBarelly related, I was not Twitter user, but since X I come up with full length XXX movies in suggestions. Did it started with X or they were a thing before Elon?
- ripjaygn 2y agoTwitter always had a lot of NSFW content, but one of the new features that was rolled out under Musk was support for longer videos. Before that videos could only be max 140 seconds long. Now the limit is 2 hours.
- zo1 2y agoLooks like the end-goal may just be that we have an alternate, freer internet that you can only access via non-government-approved satellite feed. @Elon: Start putting your actual servers up in order next.
- josefritzishere 2y agoElon is antagonizing an international incident. It's clear that Brazil law prevails in Brazil. He has no foundation here except gross arrogance.
- davidguetta 2y agoThe "law" should not be that much full of secrecy and lack of due process. Its basically a proto-secret service at that point
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ldbooth 2y agoI just wish this guy would take the loss and sell twitter and go back to being an uncontroversial tech legend. Mixing with Social media has corrupted every positive thing he has done and maybe will do if he keeps it up at the current pace. People tire of the drama king. If you don't know what I mean.. he said his transgender child is dead to him in a publicly aired interview. That's where this guy is in his personal relationships.
- nec4b 2y ago>>I just wish this guy would take the loss and sell twitter and go back to being an uncontroversial tech legend. Why do you care, he is spending his own money. Isn't it more important that we now know Brazil has no rule of law. A single party overtook all the subsystems in the country and now Brazil is in the company of countries like Iran or North Korea regarding X censorship. Eye opening is also how many people would condemn an entire nation to censorship only to see one guy they don't like hurt.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ldbooth 2y agoYou are overstating enforcement of corporate laws vs. a government censoring an entire nation. Similarly banning X in the US would not be censorship if the company flouted and refused to obey US laws. He is spending many people's money, not just his own. He's human, he can be both a tech legend and a polarizing, drama-magnet of a human being, I just lament him leaning into the latter when the benefit is winning a pissing match.
- amy-petrik-214 2y agoNo no no no no no. It's not as black and white as "oh they failed to obey US laws" - that is a highly deceptive portrayal of the situation! We are talking about free speech laws. What if the law says "no hate speech, according to a floating definition of hate speech drafted by those with power who are the scions of rightthink" What if the law says "no disinformation, according to the custodians of rightthink and rightinformation. Very 1984! And it's 2024, how a propos, 40 years off. "No disinformation" itself is highly dubious! Wow, there's an information expert who instantly can detect correct versus incorrect "facts"? Can they review all science ever and suss out what's right, using their infallible power? Because that's the politically constructed facade we're dealing with here. No, Eli Musk had it figured out. Speech is free and free is speech. If someone has misinformation, let the people beat them down for it. If someone is wrong, let someone call them out. The power to make speech is to the people, the power to call out and regulate speech is also to the people. For the state to usurp such a power, is 1984-esque big brother manipulations, for the purpose no more nor less of political control and manipulation