7 ms·

I have extracted this (and other) nerves from cadavers, and this circuitous cranial nerve (XII?) is as beautiful and complex as the multibranch plexus-es (e.g.

I have extracted this (and other) nerves from cadavers, and this circuitous cranial nerve (XII?) is as beautiful and complex as the multibranch plexus-es (e.g. brachial). So delicate. Human anatomy, at first glance, often seems wrongly-engineered. After you've worked inside dozens of people, you begin to realize that everybody is unique — and nobody is "textbook" anatomy. Who knows what all this goop even does?! If you ever get the chance, I highly recommend this humbling human experience. My hope is that my own cadaver is ripped apart by somebody as crazy/appreciative as me =D

nojs 2y ago
How does one get this chance?
- stephenitis 2y ago
  I watched a fullautopsy in a theater high school at the Walter Reed National Military, followed by an open heart surgery. I'm sure there are videos of this. Beware it's a lot they pick apart the human body.
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    >it's a lot they pick apart the human body. The chest opener is one of the scarier physical tools within surgery... "ca-RACK-k-k-k-KK"
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  Multiple options, including: attend medical school; become employed by an anatomy farm. As for "chance of being hacked apart," anybody can donate their cadaver to science — most facilities require prior enrollment and will recover the corpse, nationwide. You might end up sold into scientific experimentation... if you're morbidly obese (e.g.) you won't be used for student anatomy (if you care).
  - salad-tycoon 2y ago
    And one example of scientific experiment is being left out on an open field to study how cadavers decompose when exposed to “the elements” wind/rain/sun/bugs/birds/wolves etc to help solve crime scenes. You can look up forensic anthropologists and body farms for more info. Not my cup of tea, personally, but my ultimate point is you might get used in something you disagree with. Look into the history of cell lines used in medicine for some of the controversy and perpetual pain for surviving family members, as an example.
  - latentsea 2y ago
    What, pray tell, is an "anatomy farm"!???
    - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
      Where donated cadavers go to rot, exposed to the elements; typically observed for scientific/forensic learning purposes.
- gojomo 2y ago
  You may be able to find a local community college course that offers free/cheap observation or participation in human cadaver dissection. This 2022 LessWrong post mentions a $60 5-hour option at the Sf Bay Area's Merritt College (in Oakland): https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5PBWgHiCiiJHjPRSn/what-it-s-like-to-dissect-a-cadaver https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5PBWgHiCiiJHjPRSn/what-it-s-...
RoboTeddy 2y ago
> My hope is that my own cadaver is ripped apart by somebody as crazy/appreciative as me =D https://meded.ucsf.edu/willed-body-program https://meded.ucsf.edu/willed-body-program :)
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  For Texans, UNT has both a medical school and an anatomy farm. https://www.unthsc.edu/center-for-anatomical-sciences/willed-body-program/donation-process/ https://www.unthsc.edu/center-for-anatomical-sciences/willed... I had a blast.
ViktorRay 2y ago
It’s interesting you mention “Nobody is textbook anatomy” I know you’re exaggerating for poetic effect but this might actually be true in some parts of the human anatomy. For example the description of the anatomy of vessels and anastomoses around the knee…I have had a professor tell me that the standard anatomical descriptions for this might all essentially be fiction. Basically the variation in some of these vessels over there is so high that the standard anatomical textbook description might be wrong. That being said maybe the professor was wrong. I don’t know. But it was an interesting thing to think about.
- devilbunny 2y ago
  No, really: nobody has completely textbook anatomy. Think of it like those blended-face photos. Anatomy books describe that.
  - cosignal 2y ago
    Some people wonder why the use of ‘AI’ in pathology is not more effective, and this is part of the reason.
    - eagerpace 2y ago
      It seems like exactly the kind of thing AI will be better at than humans. If just needs to be trained on the variations instead of the textbook.
      - bitnasty 2y ago
        My thought is the exact opposite. AI can handle predictable situations fine, but the 20% of situations which are unpredictable require a general intelligence that can understand context that current AI technology (or possibly any AI technology) just doesn’t possess. There will always be situations that training doesn’t cover.
        loa_in_ 2y ago
breck 2y ago
> If you ever get the chance, I highly recommend this humbling human experience. Not as good as doing your own dissection, but a million times better than an anatomy book is visiting a plastination exhibit: https://breckyunits.com/ketoneMap.html https://breckyunits.com/ketoneMap.html
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  I attended the Bodies Exhibit c. 2007/8, which was a bunch of deceased Chinese prisoners preserved without consent... but it was still really cool. Models of circulatory systems with plastesizers and then all other flesh removed — incredible and complex and unique-to-each-human. 2008/9 I did anatomy prosections and had an absolute blast, but ultimately did not become licensed.
  - salad-tycoon 2y ago
    Yes, a bit uncomfortable to consider the ones they have plasticized into sexual acts into eternity and the pregnant woman and fetus (and there’s a lot of intrigue into that poor lady and baby). But ultimately, the non-consensual advancement of understanding of our bodies is a deep, dark, tragic rabbit hole that goes from antiquity up to… this very moment. Don’t know what to do with the information I have discovered in the end but a good reminder to pause and reflect occasionally with the hope that we may not enable whatever the next “great idea, damn the costs” is.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      It's even more uncomfortable to realize that there will still be non-consensuality to our advancement from our current point.
  - abcd_f 2y ago
    Hold on. That's the "Body Worlds" you are referring to?
catoc 2y ago
Nervus vagus is X - the tenth cranial nerve
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  Thank you, I needed a consult on that one (but now cannot edit/correct it): You are correct, Vagus is TENTH Cranial Nerve.
- adrian_b 2y ago
  And it was originally the last cranial nerve in vertebrates, before the first spinal nerves have been incorporated in the cranium as the nerves XI and XII. It and several of the nerves preceding it, which originally innervated the branchial arches, remain different in nature from the following nerves (spinal nerves + cranial nerves XI and XII), whose original main purpose was to innervate the somatic muscles. This difference is more important than whether the nerves happen to exit the central nervous systems between adjacent vertebrae or by holes through the cranium (which are the result of the first vertebrae becoming fused to the occipital bone). The nervus vagus and its associated ganglia of the vertebrates has a correspondent in the nervous system of most animals, including the arthropods, as a vegetative nervous system of the gastro-intestinal tract, which is connected to the central nervous system from the head, e.g. with the tritocerebrum of the arthropods.
  - catoc 2y ago
    This is why I like HN
Sysreq2 2y ago
This reminds me of a conversation I was having recently about genetically engineering humans. I think people are greatly underestimating the complexity of the human body and it’s nature mechanisms of adaptation. Everyone is a little different - but that’s okay because all the little feedback loops and receptor sites account for changes. Like a drug addict needing more and more to get their fix. There isn’t just one variable we can adjust to really solve most problems. You have to look at the entire web of interconnected systems and modulate how each of them work together. We sort of take it all for granted since life is so abundant, but it’s truly nothing short of miraculous.
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  >truly nothing short of miraculous. Here by the grace of god(s)... The brain is but just one part of an incredibly complex machination.
- FeepingCreature 2y ago
  Though arguably this should also make it easier to make changes, because the body already has to cope with so much natural variation.
  - taneq 2y ago
    But then you fix the problem at the wrong control-loop level and after a while it goes right back to how it was.
- lanstin 2y ago
  Also one substance can be used in multiple feedback loops in different tissues. Tweaking one loop without touching others will take some finesse.
m463 2y ago
> nobody is "textbook" anatomy And I think with "most of the cells in your body are not you" and gut biomes and more... I think everyone is their own ecosystem too.
hobo_mark 2y ago
I know med students get to attend cadaver vivisections, is this accessible to others as well? (of course this may depend on jurisdiction and university practice, just asking in general in case anyone has experience).
- pnut 2y ago
  Dissections, man! Yikes
  - hyperbolablabla 2y ago
    Got grizzly there pretty quick
- piombisallow 2y ago
  Probably only for some kind of research study.
Steve44 2y ago
> I have extracted this (and other) nerves from cadavers One of the most incredible exhibits I've seen are the anatomical tables on display in the Royal College of Physicians museum in London. When I walked into the room there were these 3-4 "doors" with what looked like shadows of people on them. The more I looked, and the more I understood what I was looking at, the more amazed I became. The museum, and building I think, was closed for a few years but understand it's back open again. https://history.rcplondon.ac.uk/collections/art-and-objects/anatomical-tables https://history.rcplondon.ac.uk/collections/art-and-objects/... The tables are visually spectacular. They show the recognisable form of the human body laid out flat, as if illustrating a book. The nerves, veins and arteries on display were dissected at the University of Padua’s famous anatomy theatre in the 17th century, and skilfully arranged on varnished wooden panels.
bookofjoe 2y ago
cranial nerve X: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve
raincom 2y ago
So, textbook anatomical pictures are ideal just as ideal gases and point masses are. In the real world, concrete anatomy, concrete gases are different.

nojs 2y ago

How does one get this chance?

stephenitis 2y ago
I watched a fullautopsy in a theater high school at the Walter Reed National Military, followed by an open heart surgery. I'm sure there are videos of this. Beware it's a lot they pick apart the human body.
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  >it's a lot they pick apart the human body. The chest opener is one of the scarier physical tools within surgery... "ca-RACK-k-k-k-KK"
ProllyInfamous 2y ago
Multiple options, including: attend medical school; become employed by an anatomy farm. As for "chance of being hacked apart," anybody can donate their cadaver to science — most facilities require prior enrollment and will recover the corpse, nationwide. You might end up sold into scientific experimentation... if you're morbidly obese (e.g.) you won't be used for student anatomy (if you care).
- salad-tycoon 2y ago
  And one example of scientific experiment is being left out on an open field to study how cadavers decompose when exposed to “the elements” wind/rain/sun/bugs/birds/wolves etc to help solve crime scenes. You can look up forensic anthropologists and body farms for more info. Not my cup of tea, personally, but my ultimate point is you might get used in something you disagree with. Look into the history of cell lines used in medicine for some of the controversy and perpetual pain for surviving family members, as an example.
- latentsea 2y ago
  What, pray tell, is an "anatomy farm"!???
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    Where donated cadavers go to rot, exposed to the elements; typically observed for scientific/forensic learning purposes.
gojomo 2y ago
You may be able to find a local community college course that offers free/cheap observation or participation in human cadaver dissection. This 2022 LessWrong post mentions a $60 5-hour option at the Sf Bay Area's Merritt College (in Oakland): https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5PBWgHiCiiJHjPRSn/what-it-s-like-to-dissect-a-cadaver https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5PBWgHiCiiJHjPRSn/what-it-s-...

RoboTeddy 2y ago

> My hope is that my own cadaver is ripped apart by somebody as crazy/appreciative as me =D https://meded.ucsf.edu/willed-body-program https://meded.ucsf.edu/willed-body-program :)

ProllyInfamous 2y ago
For Texans, UNT has both a medical school and an anatomy farm. https://www.unthsc.edu/center-for-anatomical-sciences/willed-body-program/donation-process/ https://www.unthsc.edu/center-for-anatomical-sciences/willed... I had a blast.

ViktorRay 2y ago

It’s interesting you mention “Nobody is textbook anatomy” I know you’re exaggerating for poetic effect but this might actually be true in some parts of the human anatomy. For example the description of the anatomy of vessels and anastomoses around the knee…I have had a professor tell me that the standard anatomical descriptions for this might all essentially be fiction. Basically the variation in some of these vessels over there is so high that the standard anatomical textbook description might be wrong. That being said maybe the professor was wrong. I don’t know. But it was an interesting thing to think about.

devilbunny 2y ago
No, really: nobody has completely textbook anatomy. Think of it like those blended-face photos. Anatomy books describe that.
- cosignal 2y ago
  Some people wonder why the use of ‘AI’ in pathology is not more effective, and this is part of the reason.
  - eagerpace 2y ago
    It seems like exactly the kind of thing AI will be better at than humans. If just needs to be trained on the variations instead of the textbook.
    - bitnasty 2y ago
      My thought is the exact opposite. AI can handle predictable situations fine, but the 20% of situations which are unpredictable require a general intelligence that can understand context that current AI technology (or possibly any AI technology) just doesn’t possess. There will always be situations that training doesn’t cover.
      - loa_in_ 2y ago

breck 2y ago

> If you ever get the chance, I highly recommend this humbling human experience. Not as good as doing your own dissection, but a million times better than an anatomy book is visiting a plastination exhibit: https://breckyunits.com/ketoneMap.html https://breckyunits.com/ketoneMap.html

ProllyInfamous 2y ago
I attended the Bodies Exhibit c. 2007/8, which was a bunch of deceased Chinese prisoners preserved without consent... but it was still really cool. Models of circulatory systems with plastesizers and then all other flesh removed — incredible and complex and unique-to-each-human. 2008/9 I did anatomy prosections and had an absolute blast, but ultimately did not become licensed.
- salad-tycoon 2y ago
  Yes, a bit uncomfortable to consider the ones they have plasticized into sexual acts into eternity and the pregnant woman and fetus (and there’s a lot of intrigue into that poor lady and baby). But ultimately, the non-consensual advancement of understanding of our bodies is a deep, dark, tragic rabbit hole that goes from antiquity up to… this very moment. Don’t know what to do with the information I have discovered in the end but a good reminder to pause and reflect occasionally with the hope that we may not enable whatever the next “great idea, damn the costs” is.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    It's even more uncomfortable to realize that there will still be non-consensuality to our advancement from our current point.
- abcd_f 2y ago
  Hold on. That's the "Body Worlds" you are referring to?

catoc 2y ago

Nervus vagus is X - the tenth cranial nerve

ProllyInfamous 2y ago
Thank you, I needed a consult on that one (but now cannot edit/correct it): You are correct, Vagus is TENTH Cranial Nerve.
adrian_b 2y ago
And it was originally the last cranial nerve in vertebrates, before the first spinal nerves have been incorporated in the cranium as the nerves XI and XII. It and several of the nerves preceding it, which originally innervated the branchial arches, remain different in nature from the following nerves (spinal nerves + cranial nerves XI and XII), whose original main purpose was to innervate the somatic muscles. This difference is more important than whether the nerves happen to exit the central nervous systems between adjacent vertebrae or by holes through the cranium (which are the result of the first vertebrae becoming fused to the occipital bone). The nervus vagus and its associated ganglia of the vertebrates has a correspondent in the nervous system of most animals, including the arthropods, as a vegetative nervous system of the gastro-intestinal tract, which is connected to the central nervous system from the head, e.g. with the tritocerebrum of the arthropods.
- catoc 2y ago
  This is why I like HN

Sysreq2 2y ago

This reminds me of a conversation I was having recently about genetically engineering humans. I think people are greatly underestimating the complexity of the human body and it’s nature mechanisms of adaptation. Everyone is a little different - but that’s okay because all the little feedback loops and receptor sites account for changes. Like a drug addict needing more and more to get their fix. There isn’t just one variable we can adjust to really solve most problems. You have to look at the entire web of interconnected systems and modulate how each of them work together. We sort of take it all for granted since life is so abundant, but it’s truly nothing short of miraculous.

ProllyInfamous 2y ago
>truly nothing short of miraculous. Here by the grace of god(s)... The brain is but just one part of an incredibly complex machination.
FeepingCreature 2y ago
Though arguably this should also make it easier to make changes, because the body already has to cope with so much natural variation.
- taneq 2y ago
  But then you fix the problem at the wrong control-loop level and after a while it goes right back to how it was.
lanstin 2y ago
Also one substance can be used in multiple feedback loops in different tissues. Tweaking one loop without touching others will take some finesse.

m463 2y ago

> nobody is "textbook" anatomy And I think with "most of the cells in your body are not you" and gut biomes and more... I think everyone is their own ecosystem too.

hobo_mark 2y ago

I know med students get to attend cadaver vivisections, is this accessible to others as well? (of course this may depend on jurisdiction and university practice, just asking in general in case anyone has experience).

pnut 2y ago
Dissections, man! Yikes
- hyperbolablabla 2y ago
  Got grizzly there pretty quick
piombisallow 2y ago
Probably only for some kind of research study.

Steve44 2y ago

> I have extracted this (and other) nerves from cadavers One of the most incredible exhibits I've seen are the anatomical tables on display in the Royal College of Physicians museum in London. When I walked into the room there were these 3-4 "doors" with what looked like shadows of people on them. The more I looked, and the more I understood what I was looking at, the more amazed I became. The museum, and building I think, was closed for a few years but understand it's back open again. https://history.rcplondon.ac.uk/collections/art-and-objects/anatomical-tables https://history.rcplondon.ac.uk/collections/art-and-objects/... The tables are visually spectacular. They show the recognisable form of the human body laid out flat, as if illustrating a book. The nerves, veins and arteries on display were dissected at the University of Padua’s famous anatomy theatre in the 17th century, and skilfully arranged on varnished wooden panels.

bookofjoe 2y ago

cranial nerve X: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve

raincom 2y ago

So, textbook anatomical pictures are ideal just as ideal gases and point masses are. In the real world, concrete anatomy, concrete gases are different.