18 ms·

A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

247 points by oblvious-earth 2y ago

nromiun 2y ago
Very sad to see this happening to the Python community. Maybe we need a fork with only technical discussion allowed. This CoC/vote stuff seems to poison every community it touches.
- gorgoiler 2y ago
  I think the politics of power is unavoidable no matter how well you silo your technical work from your people work. Ten years ago, Debian saw three well respected members of the Technical Committee resign — including two former project leaders, one of whom designed the .deb packaging system — during what I see as a similarly heated vote/counter-vote power struggle. This Python saga feels similar.
  - nromiun 2y ago
    BDFL model seems to have worked pretty well for so many decades. Guido should have just transferred power to someone he trusted. Now look at him, he can't even comment freely.
    - _0ffh 2y ago
      I think the lesson is, if you should ever find yourself in the role of a BD and plan to give up control in favour of a committee or suchlike, always retain the option to throw them out and re-assume control, in case of need.
      - cooperadymas 2y ago
        Ah the old Oliver Cromwell approach!
      - EasyMark 2y ago
        Yeah because after that you just have 5-10 dictators which inevitable build up cliques with their own personal grievances rather than any ideas to benefit the good of the community.
    - benterix 2y ago
      This is a tough one. Guido was excellent at his role, and his decision to hand it over was a mature one. It was everybody's hope it would help to guarantee long-term future for Python, independent from corporate greed. Now these new folks seems to be failing at the only job they had. Maybe they need more time to mature, or maybe the Python Community should take a more decisive stance towards this kind of abuse of power.
  - plg94 2y ago
    I believe if things get too heated, all the parties involved should be forced to meet in person for a weekend to talk things out. I'm sure it would solve like 90% of these stupid conflicts, because people rarely get _that_ riled up when in the same room. Written communication, especially asynchronus ones like email or forums, are just unsuitable to capture all nuances of human behaviour. Someone is tired or hungry and makes a bad joke; next thing you know there's a witchhunt… (I also don't think they should be allowed to cite things said 5 years ago as a reason to ban someone today. How could that still be relevant?)
    - squigz 2y ago
      > (I also don't think they should be allowed to cite things said 5 years ago as a reason to ban someone today. How could that still be relevant?) Out of curiosity, since similar arguments come up fairly regularly: What is the appropriate time limit, do you think?
oblvious-earth 2y ago
The original text stated: > I don’t know much about voting systems, but I know someone who does. Unfortunately he’s currently banned. Maybe we can wait until his 3-month ban expires and ask him for advice? Currently, the text reads: > This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden. Since it has been hidden for more than 24 hours, this suggests that a moderator action has marked it as permanently hidden. Due to a recent decision, this means no one outside of the moderators or admins can view it: https://discuss.python.org/t/moderated-posts-are-no-longer-publicly-visible/61648 https://discuss.python.org/t/moderated-posts-are-no-longer-p... Edit: I meant to post slightly more direct link in title: https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-consider-ranked-choice-voting-for-sc-elections/61880/6 https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-consider-ranked-choic... Edit 2: Some comments suggest that Guido was banned from posting, but this is not accurate. I have edited the title from "Guido van Rossum's Post Removed for Violating Python Community Guidelines" to "A Post by Guido van Rossum Removed for Violating Python Community Guidelines" to clarify what actually happened.
- _0ffh 2y ago
  > this means no one outside of the moderators or admins can view it Imo that kind of deliberate intransparency is a massive red flag. Here for example I can choose to see hidden comments and make up my own mind about the content, which is excellent. Even if I don't use the feature, the fact that I could if I wanted to is a massive plus for trust in the process.
- EvanAnderson 2y ago
  I'm an outsider who only knows Guido van Rossum by way of interviews his writing. Assuming your quote is what the original text said (I don't disbelieve you-- but nobody can see it to confirm) why would this have violated community standards? Is there some rule about not mentioning "un-persons" or something? It's very confusing. Edit: Answering my own question. There appears to be a kerfuffle afoot. Apparently the Steering Council has suspended a core developer for 3 months[0] but isn't naming the suspended developer or citing specific reasons why (per [1] and sparking a call for a vote of no confidence in the council which did not succeed). Apparently even mentioning the suspended person (without naming them) is enough for even Guido van Rossum to be censored. Wow. Edit 2: The suspended developer is Tim Peters[3]. Edit 3: Altered paragraph "Edit:" from "...or the reason why[1] (" to "...or citing specific reasons why (per [1]". Edit 4: Added "which did not succeed" after "...vote of no confidence in the council". [0] https://discuss.python.org/t/three-month-suspension-for-a-core-developer/60250 https://discuss.python.org/t/three-month-suspension-for-a-co... [1] https://discuss.python.org/t/calling-for-a-vote-of-no-confidence/61557 https://discuss.python.org/t/calling-for-a-vote-of-no-confid... [3] https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestr...
basementcat 2y ago
Isn’t it good to see that no one is "above the law", even if they’re a benevolent dictator?
- riknos314 2y ago
  "the law" is always subject to interpretation in a given context. The entire concept of case law is that "the law" has been interpreted in a certain way in a similar context before.
- rdtsc 2y ago
  The question is always who enforces the law and if and how they choose to enforce it.
  - II2II 2y ago
    If the comment was the reference to a banned member, was the action actually inappropriate? If the banning of the member alluded to was inappropriate, there is a time, place, and tact to address that. If the process does not allow for that, then you work towards changing the process. If the governing body doesn't allow for that, then why the heck would you make a comment that could derail a discussion regarding how that governing body is elected?
    - rdtsc 2y ago
      > If the comment was the reference to a banned member, was the action actually inappropriate? Yes > why the heck would you make a comment that could derail a discussion. Banning the poster derailed the discussion even more. So much so, it made it to front page of HN. I am not arguing they shouldn't have banned Guido because of who he is; I am arguing banning anyone should have a pretty high threshold, and when it happens it should be done with extreme transparency. Asking to wait for a member to join the discussion later about a relevant topic shouldn't come anywhere near that threshold.
- OhMeadhbh 2y ago
  I agree. But didn't he give up the Benevolent Dictator for Life moniker? Sounds like a King Lear situation... Since now we will divest us both of moderation authority, Interest of ban-hammering, cares of tweets,-- Which of you shall we say doth love us most? That we our highest privilege in the comments forum may extend Where nature doth with merit challenge. Tim, Our eldest-born, speak first.
gnabgib 2y ago
Article title: Should we consider Ranked Choice voting for SC elections?
- ece 2y ago
  Veritasium's latest video is on voting systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7ws2DF-zk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7ws2DF-zk
aldfgH 2y ago
These are not "Python community guidelines". These are the guidelines of a tyrannical clique who have grabbed power and control the access to the infrastructure. They abuse their power by banning any opposition and then using said infrastructure to libel and defame their opponents. Google already fired one or two of them. I do not know what is required to restore the health of Python.
- ramses0 2y ago
  [flagged]
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Fired who?
- bitcharmer 2y ago
  It's funny how drama, toxicity and speech suppresion ensues as soon as you establish a CoC and let a bunch of SJWs enforce it. Every. Single. Time.
  - DoctorOetker 2y ago
    Similarly (un)funny how the technology behind blockchains, formal verification, and decentralization is ridiculed on the basis of inefficiency etc., Every. Single. Time. given such a governance structure would be so much harder for the legalese power trippers to regulatory capture...
    - GaryNumanVevo 2y ago
      What are you talking about? Were you around for the DAO moment a few years ago? Anyone who had a lot of crypto could powertrip and effectively veto any vote.
      - DoctorOetker 2y ago
        again, cryptography is not crypto, yes I remember the DAO, but no I didnt say buying democracy. I said using the technology behind blockchains. Any rules of order or organizational structure could be formulated in say metamath as formal sentences and a UI built around it so that people can take steps and make decisions and prove they are entitled to do so. a malicious actor should fail to be able to prove undeserved powers in a properly formulated formal system. none of this censorship nonsense
bfrog 2y ago
This seems to be a repeating theme lately. NixOS went through something incredibly similar lately.
- scientist4397 2y ago
  I miss that information, have you a link to share ?
  - nick__m 2y ago
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/14/nix_forked_but_over_politics/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/14/nix_forked_but_over_p...
    - aidenn0 2y ago
      Note that that is from very early on in the process. The last I heard (about a month ago?) the final result was several (many of? more than 3, less than all?) people who signed the letter mentioned in the Reg article left for various reasons, several right at the point when a certain person had their commit-status re-enabled after a ban. I believe said person was eventually banned at a later point. There are at least 2 forks that happened seemingly as a result of these disputes (Aux, as mentioned in the Reg article and Lix)
  - srid 2y ago
    A 5 minute overview, https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-nixos-conflict-in-under-5-minutes https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-nixos-conflict-in-... Another overview (easy to understand, but some non-central information is inaccurate), https://lunduke.locals.com/post/5819317/nixos-commits-a-purge-of-nazi-contributors-forces-abdication-of-founder https://lunduke.locals.com/post/5819317/nixos-commits-a-purg... Concrete events & evidences, https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/master/rfc_evidences_experiences.md https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/master/rfc_eviden...
    - srid 2y ago
jgalt212 2y ago
Who's the un-person you're not allowed to name? I want to register and post his / her name and get banned myself. Perhaps, we should all do this.
- mananaysiempre 2y ago
  Tim Peters, author of Timsort and the Zen of Python. He might be less of a public face of Python than GvR, but he was just as instrumental to its design all the way from the early years to its coming into the mainstream. However, I don’t think reflexive actions like what you’re suggesting will sway anybody who’s not already convinced, or really help in any other way. Disruptive demonstrations can occasionally work IRL when they can serve to convey a concern to people who wouldn’t otherwise notice it, or to assure like-minded people that they’re not alone. Online forums, by contrast, are both lacking in passersby and plentiful in tools for suppressing disruptions. Furthermore, I don’t think you can really outpolitick a politician on this low a level. Well-motivated and well-publicized forks could work. General apathy and nonparticipation could work. Other ways of voting with your feet could also work, if you can think of one. But you can’t argue (collaborate on converging to the truth) with an opponent who’s completely convinced of their own rightness and righteousness, only debate them (attempt to expose each other’s faults to an audience). Debating a politician won’t work, because they’ll crush you. It’s a large part of what being a good politician is, after all.
- bluedino 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41212788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41212788
- ansible 2y ago
  Why do you want to stick your opinion into something that you hadn't previously known about? What are you going to positively contribute to the discussion that will move things forward? How does that help?
  - alexey-salmin 2y ago
    Not OP, but stating that "ban for merely mentioning an un-person" is nuts looks like a positive contribution to me. Policies like this often stand because no one openly disagrees and no one openly disagrees because no one else does so you just assume everyone is OK with it. Until a child blurts out that the king is naked. > Why do you want to stick your opinion into something that you hadn't previously known about? What are you going to positively contribute to the discussion that will move things forward? How does that help? A prudent response, the revised ending of "The Emperor's New Clothes".
colechristensen 2y ago
This raises legitimate concerns for the long term viability of Python.
at_a_remove 2y ago
Aaaah, once again community guidelines and codes of conduct reveal their nature as the thin edge of the wedge, the camel's nose in the tent.
- bitcharmer 2y ago
  Everything these people touch turns to shit. Look at the movies industry or gaming.
  - at_a_remove 2y ago
    I wonder if there is a good list of these kinds of incidents going on in open source. It might be helpful in trying to figure out exactly what kind of clauses and verbiage, precisely, invite these kinds of takeover attempts like some kind of demon-summoning invocation.
  - incognito124 2y ago
    Who are these people you're talking about?
    - bitcharmer 2y ago
      Political activists disguised as software developers
jsyang00 2y ago
Amazon Meta or Google should please create and maintain a corporate fork. The performance fixes could happen faster and would probably pay for themselves. No more problems with issues like this. Would provide some people with good jobs.
- jamesfinlayson 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure Amazon does at least - I thought that the Python version that runs in Lambda had a few features on top of CPython (mainly around relative imports but possibly other things too).
- bouncing 2y ago
  What performance fixes do you think were being slowed down by the community?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
AlbertCory 2y ago
So his original comment isn't on Internet Archive somewhere?
- scoofy 2y ago
  It only got snapshot once so far, and the comment is not showing up: http://web.archive.org/web/20240829000336/https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-consider-ranked-choice-voting-for-sc-elections/61880 http://web.archive.org/web/20240829000336/https://discuss.py... http://web.archive.org/web/20240829004501/https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-consider-ranked-choice-voting-for-sc-elections/61880/6 http://web.archive.org/web/20240829004501/https://discuss.py...
ggm 2y ago
One post. His posting rights haven't been withdrawn, it's one message in context which was elided out. [edit: I am somewhat surprised people want to down-vote a factual statement, which in part aligns to the OP who changed the title of the post since it was being wrongly inferred his posting rights had gone, not a single post was being hidden. As the saying goes "you do you"]
- basementcat 2y ago
  I also don’t fully understand why some folks are worked up. We all have posts that are downvoted and removed even here on HN. If you don’t like the steering committee or whatever, just elect a new one.
  - thinkingemote 2y ago
    Do you understand but just don't agree? Can we help in increasing understanding on why people have certain opinions in this topic? Or do you kinda know why and are expressing a kind of disagreement and disapproval of holding the opinions?
    - basementcat 2y ago
      Yes, please help me understand why this is a big deal! A committee that was chosen by a community decided to remove a post. It looks like the removal was well within their authority. If the community disagrees with the committee, they can move discussion to another venue, elect a new committee, and so on, no? None of this adversely affects the performance or reliability of software written in python.
      - thinkingemote 2y ago
        This doesn't directly affect the software as it currently stands. It's mainly about the organisation. The people in charge have some a sequence of things that have increasingly alarmed people who care about the organisation of the project. More people are getting interested in what has happened with each step. This is one of the latest actions where even the key person who started Python has been impacted. This shows that the actions they were doing are important and worthy of attention as anyone who interacts within the organisation is within the reach of potential impact. No-one is untouchable. Outside though to the rest of us it's not directly impactful currently. So then there is the impacts on wider things like software. As you say the community can just vote out the ones they dislike and vote in a new bunch. To me and many others, this sounds it should solve the situation. However I think some others see the problems as systemic, where the actions taken are a result of how the management organisation is structured and so the problems will occur again even if new people were in charge. If that's the case then more of a change might be demanded which could affect the software. (But in what ways is unclear) On a HN scale, there's a wider sociological and cultural issue of how large open source software projects should be organised. And this is an example showing the problems of certain approaches especially as certain things were directly for reducing abuse and yet seem to be used in an abusive way. For many here on HN who are in various communities with similar structures, seeing what happens here is very important to them. There is a varying amount of personal investment in this story about the users own lives more than Python itself.
OutOfHere 2y ago
[flagged]
- dllthomas 2y ago
  It's not just how much information you extract, but also what you do with that information. RCV, in the most common form of IRV, has a problem that I think is relevant. If we accept the truism that the appropriate compromise won't be anyone's first choice, then the very first thing IRV does is throw out any appropriate compromise, leaving it to make a decision between inappropriate options. I think we need to be more able to pick a compromise, not less.
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    That truism seems pretty unacceptable to me.
    - dllthomas 2y ago
      I don't think it's strictly true, and a system built around it as a rule would be easily manipulated and a bad system. I'm not proposing it as a rule within any system, though, and my analysis generally holds so long as it's true a meaningful chunk of the time - it doesn't even need to be a majority of cases.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    Yeah, it's painful seeing all the enthusiasm IRV gets. I've come to the conclusion it's how people think they want to be able to express support for third party candidates due to their frustration with the current system, but not actually seeing down the line to what happens when non-duopoly options gain some popularity. Basically it's still hopelessly wed to the two party model after the less-popular third parties are run off. It's only redeeming feature is that the same choices can serve as the input to a Condorcet decision process when the failures of IRV become apparent.
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
scoofy 2y ago
I prefer the Jimmy Wales version of authority. The project operates democratically, but Jimmy always retains the ultimate authority to act as a sovereign at the end of the day because he built it, has the reputation of the project to protect, and it's his legacy. The option to fork the project will always be there if the people want new leadership.
- debacle 2y ago
  Guido did that for a long time, but I think he reached a point where he wanted to transition.
  - scoofy 2y ago
    Again, I would prefer he retain an unused veto. Who knows, perhaps he's entirely fine with his comment being removed. The benefits of a sovereign are that they limit the amount of privileges that can be extracted from an political system. Obviously monarchs have their downsides, but if people can just up and fork the project, those downsides are limited.
    - lazyasciiart 2y ago
      The downsides can be pretty high for the chosen monarch.
      - scoofy 2y ago
        I obviously can't speak to the politics of the Python Foundation (my favorite language and would buy every single person in this governance discussion a beer), but my point is that these types of monarchs generally have more (Taleb-style) skin in the game than someone who shows up later. More to lose (everything they've built), and so I would generally trust their judgement to care more about the institution as a whole, than about exercising power (which is the entire reason they have effectively given up power in the first place).
    - toofy 2y ago
smitty1e 2y ago
I think that Ranked Choice Voting might be helpful in an insular, knowledgable case like the PSF. Its knowledge requirements of the voters are such that I would opposed it for general, political cases.
bigbones 2y ago
Seems like someone's been reading How To Have AWS Announce A Fork Of Your Project In 21 Days on the toilet
- hughesjj 2y ago
  Amazon wouldn't even officially fund python development internally (thankfully Chris Rose is a gem along with others so most never noticed), and they don't care about this kind of drama
potsandpans 2y ago
This kind of drama seems to exist very specifically to programming language design and implementation. Probably has something to do with the codified formal structures necessary for various committees/ decision making groups. But it's interesting. This kind of stuff happens in ECMA, Rust, Python and a few others. Go seems to have escaped. Maybe because it's a corporate owned Lang? Similarly no drama in the Typescript world.
- stackghost 2y ago
  >This kind of drama seems to exist very specifically to programming language design and implementation. There's that saying about the inverse correlation between impact of the project/the stakes, and people being drama lords.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    I saw this in the re-enactment scene in the UK in the 80's and 90's [0], where there were endless schisms and political dramas. The same is true of any "scene" where the consequences of drama are minor and the participants have the scene as a core part of their identity. I would expect there to be a class of admin in here that do not actually contribute code but have created positions of authority over the project based on "community contribution" only. There's a particular type of person that does this and derives great satisfaction from it. I'm not going to criticise this - often the "community contribution" is real and beneficial - but I don't think it helps when the focus of the team managing the project moves away from the purely technical. [0] I'm sure it still happens, but I no longer witness it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawa14223 2y ago
  My personal conspiracy theory is that it is the corporations demanding the codes of conduct as a form of sabotage for products that they can't control.
- 015a 2y ago
ein0p 2y ago
He should have stayed on as BDFL. Now in the power vacuum a bunch of “activists” and political enthusiasts will take over and ruin the whole thing for everyone, or at least significantly slow down the progress
- bb88 2y ago
  I'm glad he's stepped down. His opinion matters to be sure, but python needs to be a community developed language. He's a smart guy, and he matters still to the python community. There was a tremendous amount of frustration around the walrus operator, which led to him stepping down.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    The walrus operator doesn’t seem like such a big deal now given these developments, and no doubt future developments of the same sort. The permanently offended aren’t going to just go until everything is in ruins and all the main contributors are gone.
    - bb88 2y ago
      Well, on the other hand, the only way out for a "Dictator" in the "BDFL" is to resign or be overthrown. He decided to resign, which is probably for the best. Otherwise a fork would have forced the decision, and been worse for the community as a whole. Packaging and the 2.x to 3.x migration were both nightmares under his stewardship. Keep in mind that the leaders of the PSF can be voted out, if so chosen by the community. And the community may have a different opinion on the election cycle and want to take python a different direction.
      - Ferret7446 2y ago
        So BDFLs are immortal apparently. Maybe that can be a good motivation for people to contribute to open source.
  - jart 2y ago
    Guido is the community. He's the one with the most legitimacy to represent it. To imply that Guido is something separate and divorced from the community is textbook subversion. I can't imagine any reason that others leaders in the Python community would have irreconcilable differences with Guido than if their interests were to corrupt the project.
lilharddad 2y ago
[dead]
jrockway 2y ago
I'm going to be contrarian here and say, maybe it's the right choice. Bringing up already-litigated drama in an unrelated thread is not particularly constructive. If Guido thinks this person's opinions are relevant, he can send them and email and ask for them, right? To some extent, the moderators are obligated to treat everyone equally. If they wouldn't let you or me relitagate past drama here, why should they let anyone? The core team should be setting the example for how other people should behave. If the core team doesn't agree with the values that they claim to agree to, and show this disdain by not enforcing their own rules, then why would they bother creating that governance structure in the first place? They are just being consistent with the processes that they agreed to and subjected themselves to. That's governance. Personally, I think it would be more alarming to the community if certain people didn't have to follow the rules. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of not discussing the original decision in general. If there was, nobody seems to be following the rules as there are 8 billion Reddit threads on the topic. I knew nothing about this and had Names Named in about 3 seconds of searching. As a result, I don't think there is some sort of conspiracy taking place. Enough ink has been spilled on this issue; does it really need to be brought up again in a thread about voting systems?
djaouen 2y ago
[flagged]
mixmastamyk 2y ago
My spidey sense first got tingling a few years ago when the Python powers decided they were going to rename their git master branch to something else. Caused them unnecessary work and to this day it's not certain any developer or user actually asked for it. The word has multiple meanings of course; yet felt like a symbolic gesture to alleviate guilt totally unrelated to Python. I didn't complain without a dog in the hunt, but I noticed those that did were implied to be monsters, and told that their mild disagreement "would not look good to history." Unfortunately a few years later I can say the opposite. Well, Guido made his bed, now it's time to lie in it. ;-)
- cool_dude85 2y ago
  >Unfortunately a few years later I can say the opposite. It's your contention that people getting up in arms about not changing the name of the 'master' branch specifically look good now, with hindsight? Can't say I agree.
  - Izkata 2y ago
    That the people implying they were monsters were the actual monsters.
    - consteval 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - mixmastamyk 2y ago
        It broke scripts and docs. Funny enough I never liked that name early on, in preference to to hg’s default. But once done for years, no point in changing it.
      - eadmund 2y ago
        > For some people changing master -> main isn't a nothing burger, it's actively harmful. I constantly have pain — years after the Summer of Floyd — from repos I follow which change the name of their master branch from ‘master’ to ‘main,’ which breaks all sorts of tooling, sometimes silently (my local copies stay on ‘master,’ and never get updates), sometimes noisily. That switching is actively harmful. > Some people genuinely love the name master and want it to stay and yes, that is weird. I don’t particularly love it, but it is the correct name for the master version (as opposed to a local copy, or a remote copy, or a feature branch, or a custom branch, or whatever) of a repo.
ThinkBeat 2y ago
This type of behavior is abusing the members of the community. Code of conducts should contain language to dissuade bureaucrats from participating and especially from attempts at grabbing power. As well as a straightforward way to report bureaucrats and have them removed from the community. Based on the same process as other abuses that may already be included int the code of conduct.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mark-r 2y ago
Wow. If you needed proof that Guido isn't BDFL anymore, this is it.
lupire 2y ago
It's easier to run a Model UN game than develop a programming language.
infamia 2y ago
"We've found a witch may we burn her?!" -- Monty Python and the Holy Grail (also the PSF lately) https://youtu.be/X2xlQaimsGg?feature=shared&t=13 https://youtu.be/X2xlQaimsGg?feature=shared&t=13 FYI, Python is named after Monty Python , who got into all kinds of trouble making fun of and saying things that upset basically everyone (religion to LGBT), which is ironic considering the circumstances.
ckemere 2y ago
Why has no one pointed out that GvR posted a second time on the thread. That seems to suggest he is still actively engaged in the community?
randomcarbloke 2y ago
why do steering committees for languages always devolve into this absurdity, usually by people with comparatively little technical capability. Drama Driven Development is truly the paradigm of the last 5 years.
TimK65 2y ago
GvR's first comment, mentioning (but not naming) the banned person, is now visible to me, at least.
0xbadc0de5 2y ago
You can vote your way into a CoC but you need to fork your way out. When Codes of Conduct were first introduced, they sounded like a benign concept. But now it's becoming increasing clear that they're the Trojan horse that allows the inmates to take over the asylum.
kofejnik 2y ago
I'm sorry but I have to reuse an old comment: Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration. Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc. The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.
gvanrossum 2y ago
This is Guido. I can assure you there was nothing nefarious. The incident is best described as moderation automation misfiring. The post was restored and a moderator has apologized for the mishap.
- skylurk 2y ago
  Thanks for clarifying! I'm surprised this is your first post here. If they do ever ban you over there, we'd be honoured to have you around ;)
RevEng 2y ago
It's wonderful seeing this three days later after Guido himself has come in to say that this was nothing nefarious and more of an automation mishap. Yet here stands dozens of comments from people crying about how code of conduct is ruining the world and the PSF and SC should be dismantled. As is often the case, there is usually more to the story and we would be better off learning what really happened instead of immediately jumping to conclusions and then blaming people based on those conclusions. Otherwise we look rather silly when it ends up that it was all just a mistake and we risk ruining a good thing by our rash judgements.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  This is not one event in isolation, but rather a string of similar ones. And several folks did flag the post, did they not?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kavok1891 2y ago
This is just nuts. Political correctness is gonna ruin great projects that should be guided with technical merits.

Very sad to see this happening to the Python community. Maybe we need a fork with only technical discussion allowed. This CoC/vote stuff seems to poison every community it touches.

gorgoiler 2y ago
I think the politics of power is unavoidable no matter how well you silo your technical work from your people work. Ten years ago, Debian saw three well respected members of the Technical Committee resign — including two former project leaders, one of whom designed the .deb packaging system — during what I see as a similarly heated vote/counter-vote power struggle. This Python saga feels similar.
- nromiun 2y ago
  BDFL model seems to have worked pretty well for so many decades. Guido should have just transferred power to someone he trusted. Now look at him, he can't even comment freely.
  - _0ffh 2y ago
    I think the lesson is, if you should ever find yourself in the role of a BD and plan to give up control in favour of a committee or suchlike, always retain the option to throw them out and re-assume control, in case of need.
    - cooperadymas 2y ago
      Ah the old Oliver Cromwell approach!
    - EasyMark 2y ago
      Yeah because after that you just have 5-10 dictators which inevitable build up cliques with their own personal grievances rather than any ideas to benefit the good of the community.
  - benterix 2y ago
    This is a tough one. Guido was excellent at his role, and his decision to hand it over was a mature one. It was everybody's hope it would help to guarantee long-term future for Python, independent from corporate greed. Now these new folks seems to be failing at the only job they had. Maybe they need more time to mature, or maybe the Python Community should take a more decisive stance towards this kind of abuse of power.
- plg94 2y ago
  I believe if things get too heated, all the parties involved should be forced to meet in person for a weekend to talk things out. I'm sure it would solve like 90% of these stupid conflicts, because people rarely get _that_ riled up when in the same room. Written communication, especially asynchronus ones like email or forums, are just unsuitable to capture all nuances of human behaviour. Someone is tired or hungry and makes a bad joke; next thing you know there's a witchhunt… (I also don't think they should be allowed to cite things said 5 years ago as a reason to ban someone today. How could that still be relevant?)
  - squigz 2y ago
    > (I also don't think they should be allowed to cite things said 5 years ago as a reason to ban someone today. How could that still be relevant?) Out of curiosity, since similar arguments come up fairly regularly: What is the appropriate time limit, do you think?

oblvious-earth 2y ago

The original text stated: > I don’t know much about voting systems, but I know someone who does. Unfortunately he’s currently banned. Maybe we can wait until his 3-month ban expires and ask him for advice? Currently, the text reads: > This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden. Since it has been hidden for more than 24 hours, this suggests that a moderator action has marked it as permanently hidden. Due to a recent decision, this means no one outside of the moderators or admins can view it: https://discuss.python.org/t/moderated-posts-are-no-longer-publicly-visible/61648 https://discuss.python.org/t/moderated-posts-are-no-longer-p... Edit: I meant to post slightly more direct link in title: https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-consider-ranked-choice-voting-for-sc-elections/61880/6 https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-consider-ranked-choic... Edit 2: Some comments suggest that Guido was banned from posting, but this is not accurate. I have edited the title from "Guido van Rossum's Post Removed for Violating Python Community Guidelines" to "A Post by Guido van Rossum Removed for Violating Python Community Guidelines" to clarify what actually happened.

_0ffh 2y ago
> this means no one outside of the moderators or admins can view it Imo that kind of deliberate intransparency is a massive red flag. Here for example I can choose to see hidden comments and make up my own mind about the content, which is excellent. Even if I don't use the feature, the fact that I could if I wanted to is a massive plus for trust in the process.
EvanAnderson 2y ago
I'm an outsider who only knows Guido van Rossum by way of interviews his writing. Assuming your quote is what the original text said (I don't disbelieve you-- but nobody can see it to confirm) why would this have violated community standards? Is there some rule about not mentioning "un-persons" or something? It's very confusing. Edit: Answering my own question. There appears to be a kerfuffle afoot. Apparently the Steering Council has suspended a core developer for 3 months[0] but isn't naming the suspended developer or citing specific reasons why (per [1] and sparking a call for a vote of no confidence in the council which did not succeed). Apparently even mentioning the suspended person (without naming them) is enough for even Guido van Rossum to be censored. Wow. Edit 2: The suspended developer is Tim Peters[3]. Edit 3: Altered paragraph "Edit:" from "...or the reason why[1] (" to "...or citing specific reasons why (per [1]". Edit 4: Added "which did not succeed" after "...vote of no confidence in the council". [0] https://discuss.python.org/t/three-month-suspension-for-a-core-developer/60250 https://discuss.python.org/t/three-month-suspension-for-a-co... [1] https://discuss.python.org/t/calling-for-a-vote-of-no-confidence/61557 https://discuss.python.org/t/calling-for-a-vote-of-no-confid... [3] https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestr...

basementcat 2y ago

Isn’t it good to see that no one is "above the law", even if they’re a benevolent dictator?

riknos314 2y ago
"the law" is always subject to interpretation in a given context. The entire concept of case law is that "the law" has been interpreted in a certain way in a similar context before.
rdtsc 2y ago
The question is always who enforces the law and if and how they choose to enforce it.
- II2II 2y ago
  If the comment was the reference to a banned member, was the action actually inappropriate? If the banning of the member alluded to was inappropriate, there is a time, place, and tact to address that. If the process does not allow for that, then you work towards changing the process. If the governing body doesn't allow for that, then why the heck would you make a comment that could derail a discussion regarding how that governing body is elected?
  - rdtsc 2y ago
    > If the comment was the reference to a banned member, was the action actually inappropriate? Yes > why the heck would you make a comment that could derail a discussion. Banning the poster derailed the discussion even more. So much so, it made it to front page of HN. I am not arguing they shouldn't have banned Guido because of who he is; I am arguing banning anyone should have a pretty high threshold, and when it happens it should be done with extreme transparency. Asking to wait for a member to join the discussion later about a relevant topic shouldn't come anywhere near that threshold.
OhMeadhbh 2y ago
I agree. But didn't he give up the Benevolent Dictator for Life moniker? Sounds like a King Lear situation... Since now we will divest us both of moderation authority, Interest of ban-hammering, cares of tweets,-- Which of you shall we say doth love us most? That we our highest privilege in the comments forum may extend Where nature doth with merit challenge. Tim, Our eldest-born, speak first.

gnabgib 2y ago

Article title: Should we consider Ranked Choice voting for SC elections?

ece 2y ago
Veritasium's latest video is on voting systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7ws2DF-zk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7ws2DF-zk

aldfgH 2y ago

These are not "Python community guidelines". These are the guidelines of a tyrannical clique who have grabbed power and control the access to the infrastructure. They abuse their power by banning any opposition and then using said infrastructure to libel and defame their opponents. Google already fired one or two of them. I do not know what is required to restore the health of Python.

ramses0 2y ago
[flagged]
mixmastamyk 2y ago
Fired who?
bitcharmer 2y ago
It's funny how drama, toxicity and speech suppresion ensues as soon as you establish a CoC and let a bunch of SJWs enforce it. Every. Single. Time.
- DoctorOetker 2y ago
  Similarly (un)funny how the technology behind blockchains, formal verification, and decentralization is ridiculed on the basis of inefficiency etc., Every. Single. Time. given such a governance structure would be so much harder for the legalese power trippers to regulatory capture...
  - GaryNumanVevo 2y ago
    What are you talking about? Were you around for the DAO moment a few years ago? Anyone who had a lot of crypto could powertrip and effectively veto any vote.
    - DoctorOetker 2y ago
      again, cryptography is not crypto, yes I remember the DAO, but no I didnt say buying democracy. I said using the technology behind blockchains. Any rules of order or organizational structure could be formulated in say metamath as formal sentences and a UI built around it so that people can take steps and make decisions and prove they are entitled to do so. a malicious actor should fail to be able to prove undeserved powers in a properly formulated formal system. none of this censorship nonsense

bfrog 2y ago

This seems to be a repeating theme lately. NixOS went through something incredibly similar lately.

scientist4397 2y ago
I miss that information, have you a link to share ?
- nick__m 2y ago
  https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/14/nix_forked_but_over_politics/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/14/nix_forked_but_over_p...
  - aidenn0 2y ago
    Note that that is from very early on in the process. The last I heard (about a month ago?) the final result was several (many of? more than 3, less than all?) people who signed the letter mentioned in the Reg article left for various reasons, several right at the point when a certain person had their commit-status re-enabled after a ban. I believe said person was eventually banned at a later point. There are at least 2 forks that happened seemingly as a result of these disputes (Aux, as mentioned in the Reg article and Lix)
- srid 2y ago
  A 5 minute overview, https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-nixos-conflict-in-under-5-minutes https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-nixos-conflict-in-... Another overview (easy to understand, but some non-central information is inaccurate), https://lunduke.locals.com/post/5819317/nixos-commits-a-purge-of-nazi-contributors-forces-abdication-of-founder https://lunduke.locals.com/post/5819317/nixos-commits-a-purg... Concrete events & evidences, https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/master/rfc_evidences_experiences.md https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/master/rfc_eviden...
  - srid 2y ago

jgalt212 2y ago

Who's the un-person you're not allowed to name? I want to register and post his / her name and get banned myself. Perhaps, we should all do this.

mananaysiempre 2y ago
Tim Peters, author of Timsort and the Zen of Python. He might be less of a public face of Python than GvR, but he was just as instrumental to its design all the way from the early years to its coming into the mainstream. However, I don’t think reflexive actions like what you’re suggesting will sway anybody who’s not already convinced, or really help in any other way. Disruptive demonstrations can occasionally work IRL when they can serve to convey a concern to people who wouldn’t otherwise notice it, or to assure like-minded people that they’re not alone. Online forums, by contrast, are both lacking in passersby and plentiful in tools for suppressing disruptions. Furthermore, I don’t think you can really outpolitick a politician on this low a level. Well-motivated and well-publicized forks could work. General apathy and nonparticipation could work. Other ways of voting with your feet could also work, if you can think of one. But you can’t argue (collaborate on converging to the truth) with an opponent who’s completely convinced of their own rightness and righteousness, only debate them (attempt to expose each other’s faults to an audience). Debating a politician won’t work, because they’ll crush you. It’s a large part of what being a good politician is, after all.
bluedino 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41212788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41212788
ansible 2y ago
Why do you want to stick your opinion into something that you hadn't previously known about? What are you going to positively contribute to the discussion that will move things forward? How does that help?
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  Not OP, but stating that "ban for merely mentioning an un-person" is nuts looks like a positive contribution to me. Policies like this often stand because no one openly disagrees and no one openly disagrees because no one else does so you just assume everyone is OK with it. Until a child blurts out that the king is naked. > Why do you want to stick your opinion into something that you hadn't previously known about? What are you going to positively contribute to the discussion that will move things forward? How does that help? A prudent response, the revised ending of "The Emperor's New Clothes".

colechristensen 2y ago

This raises legitimate concerns for the long term viability of Python.

at_a_remove 2y ago

Aaaah, once again community guidelines and codes of conduct reveal their nature as the thin edge of the wedge, the camel's nose in the tent.

bitcharmer 2y ago
Everything these people touch turns to shit. Look at the movies industry or gaming.
- at_a_remove 2y ago
  I wonder if there is a good list of these kinds of incidents going on in open source. It might be helpful in trying to figure out exactly what kind of clauses and verbiage, precisely, invite these kinds of takeover attempts like some kind of demon-summoning invocation.
- incognito124 2y ago
  Who are these people you're talking about?
  - bitcharmer 2y ago
    Political activists disguised as software developers

jsyang00 2y ago

Amazon Meta or Google should please create and maintain a corporate fork. The performance fixes could happen faster and would probably pay for themselves. No more problems with issues like this. Would provide some people with good jobs.

jamesfinlayson 2y ago
I'm pretty sure Amazon does at least - I thought that the Python version that runs in Lambda had a few features on top of CPython (mainly around relative imports but possibly other things too).
bouncing 2y ago
What performance fixes do you think were being slowed down by the community?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

AlbertCory 2y ago

So his original comment isn't on Internet Archive somewhere?

scoofy 2y ago
It only got snapshot once so far, and the comment is not showing up: http://web.archive.org/web/20240829000336/https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-consider-ranked-choice-voting-for-sc-elections/61880 http://web.archive.org/web/20240829000336/https://discuss.py... http://web.archive.org/web/20240829004501/https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-consider-ranked-choice-voting-for-sc-elections/61880/6 http://web.archive.org/web/20240829004501/https://discuss.py...

ggm 2y ago

One post. His posting rights haven't been withdrawn, it's one message in context which was elided out. [edit: I am somewhat surprised people want to down-vote a factual statement, which in part aligns to the OP who changed the title of the post since it was being wrongly inferred his posting rights had gone, not a single post was being hidden. As the saying goes "you do you"]

basementcat 2y ago
I also don’t fully understand why some folks are worked up. We all have posts that are downvoted and removed even here on HN. If you don’t like the steering committee or whatever, just elect a new one.
- thinkingemote 2y ago
  Do you understand but just don't agree? Can we help in increasing understanding on why people have certain opinions in this topic? Or do you kinda know why and are expressing a kind of disagreement and disapproval of holding the opinions?
  - basementcat 2y ago
    Yes, please help me understand why this is a big deal! A committee that was chosen by a community decided to remove a post. It looks like the removal was well within their authority. If the community disagrees with the committee, they can move discussion to another venue, elect a new committee, and so on, no? None of this adversely affects the performance or reliability of software written in python.
    - thinkingemote 2y ago
      This doesn't directly affect the software as it currently stands. It's mainly about the organisation. The people in charge have some a sequence of things that have increasingly alarmed people who care about the organisation of the project. More people are getting interested in what has happened with each step. This is one of the latest actions where even the key person who started Python has been impacted. This shows that the actions they were doing are important and worthy of attention as anyone who interacts within the organisation is within the reach of potential impact. No-one is untouchable. Outside though to the rest of us it's not directly impactful currently. So then there is the impacts on wider things like software. As you say the community can just vote out the ones they dislike and vote in a new bunch. To me and many others, this sounds it should solve the situation. However I think some others see the problems as systemic, where the actions taken are a result of how the management organisation is structured and so the problems will occur again even if new people were in charge. If that's the case then more of a change might be demanded which could affect the software. (But in what ways is unclear) On a HN scale, there's a wider sociological and cultural issue of how large open source software projects should be organised. And this is an example showing the problems of certain approaches especially as certain things were directly for reducing abuse and yet seem to be used in an abusive way. For many here on HN who are in various communities with similar structures, seeing what happens here is very important to them. There is a varying amount of personal investment in this story about the users own lives more than Python itself.

OutOfHere 2y ago

[flagged]

dllthomas 2y ago
It's not just how much information you extract, but also what you do with that information. RCV, in the most common form of IRV, has a problem that I think is relevant. If we accept the truism that the appropriate compromise won't be anyone's first choice, then the very first thing IRV does is throw out any appropriate compromise, leaving it to make a decision between inappropriate options. I think we need to be more able to pick a compromise, not less.
- lazyasciiart 2y ago
  That truism seems pretty unacceptable to me.
  - dllthomas 2y ago
    I don't think it's strictly true, and a system built around it as a rule would be easily manipulated and a bad system. I'm not proposing it as a rule within any system, though, and my analysis generally holds so long as it's true a meaningful chunk of the time - it doesn't even need to be a majority of cases.
- mindslight 2y ago
  Yeah, it's painful seeing all the enthusiasm IRV gets. I've come to the conclusion it's how people think they want to be able to express support for third party candidates due to their frustration with the current system, but not actually seeing down the line to what happens when non-duopoly options gain some popularity. Basically it's still hopelessly wed to the two party model after the less-popular third parties are run off. It's only redeeming feature is that the same choices can serve as the input to a Condorcet decision process when the failures of IRV become apparent.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago

scoofy 2y ago

I prefer the Jimmy Wales version of authority. The project operates democratically, but Jimmy always retains the ultimate authority to act as a sovereign at the end of the day because he built it, has the reputation of the project to protect, and it's his legacy. The option to fork the project will always be there if the people want new leadership.

debacle 2y ago
Guido did that for a long time, but I think he reached a point where he wanted to transition.
- scoofy 2y ago
  Again, I would prefer he retain an unused veto. Who knows, perhaps he's entirely fine with his comment being removed. The benefits of a sovereign are that they limit the amount of privileges that can be extracted from an political system. Obviously monarchs have their downsides, but if people can just up and fork the project, those downsides are limited.
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    The downsides can be pretty high for the chosen monarch.
    - scoofy 2y ago
      I obviously can't speak to the politics of the Python Foundation (my favorite language and would buy every single person in this governance discussion a beer), but my point is that these types of monarchs generally have more (Taleb-style) skin in the game than someone who shows up later. More to lose (everything they've built), and so I would generally trust their judgement to care more about the institution as a whole, than about exercising power (which is the entire reason they have effectively given up power in the first place).
  - toofy 2y ago

smitty1e 2y ago

I think that Ranked Choice Voting might be helpful in an insular, knowledgable case like the PSF. Its knowledge requirements of the voters are such that I would opposed it for general, political cases.

bigbones 2y ago

Seems like someone's been reading How To Have AWS Announce A Fork Of Your Project In 21 Days on the toilet

hughesjj 2y ago
Amazon wouldn't even officially fund python development internally (thankfully Chris Rose is a gem along with others so most never noticed), and they don't care about this kind of drama

potsandpans 2y ago

This kind of drama seems to exist very specifically to programming language design and implementation. Probably has something to do with the codified formal structures necessary for various committees/ decision making groups. But it's interesting. This kind of stuff happens in ECMA, Rust, Python and a few others. Go seems to have escaped. Maybe because it's a corporate owned Lang? Similarly no drama in the Typescript world.

stackghost 2y ago
>This kind of drama seems to exist very specifically to programming language design and implementation. There's that saying about the inverse correlation between impact of the project/the stakes, and people being drama lords.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  I saw this in the re-enactment scene in the UK in the 80's and 90's [0], where there were endless schisms and political dramas. The same is true of any "scene" where the consequences of drama are minor and the participants have the scene as a core part of their identity. I would expect there to be a class of admin in here that do not actually contribute code but have created positions of authority over the project based on "community contribution" only. There's a particular type of person that does this and derives great satisfaction from it. I'm not going to criticise this - often the "community contribution" is real and beneficial - but I don't think it helps when the focus of the team managing the project moves away from the purely technical. [0] I'm sure it still happens, but I no longer witness it.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throwawa14223 2y ago
My personal conspiracy theory is that it is the corporations demanding the codes of conduct as a form of sabotage for products that they can't control.
015a 2y ago

ein0p 2y ago

He should have stayed on as BDFL. Now in the power vacuum a bunch of “activists” and political enthusiasts will take over and ruin the whole thing for everyone, or at least significantly slow down the progress

bb88 2y ago
I'm glad he's stepped down. His opinion matters to be sure, but python needs to be a community developed language. He's a smart guy, and he matters still to the python community. There was a tremendous amount of frustration around the walrus operator, which led to him stepping down.
- ein0p 2y ago
  The walrus operator doesn’t seem like such a big deal now given these developments, and no doubt future developments of the same sort. The permanently offended aren’t going to just go until everything is in ruins and all the main contributors are gone.
  - bb88 2y ago
    Well, on the other hand, the only way out for a "Dictator" in the "BDFL" is to resign or be overthrown. He decided to resign, which is probably for the best. Otherwise a fork would have forced the decision, and been worse for the community as a whole. Packaging and the 2.x to 3.x migration were both nightmares under his stewardship. Keep in mind that the leaders of the PSF can be voted out, if so chosen by the community. And the community may have a different opinion on the election cycle and want to take python a different direction.
    - Ferret7446 2y ago
      So BDFLs are immortal apparently. Maybe that can be a good motivation for people to contribute to open source.
- jart 2y ago
  Guido is the community. He's the one with the most legitimacy to represent it. To imply that Guido is something separate and divorced from the community is textbook subversion. I can't imagine any reason that others leaders in the Python community would have irreconcilable differences with Guido than if their interests were to corrupt the project.

lilharddad 2y ago

[dead]

jrockway 2y ago

I'm going to be contrarian here and say, maybe it's the right choice. Bringing up already-litigated drama in an unrelated thread is not particularly constructive. If Guido thinks this person's opinions are relevant, he can send them and email and ask for them, right? To some extent, the moderators are obligated to treat everyone equally. If they wouldn't let you or me relitagate past drama here, why should they let anyone? The core team should be setting the example for how other people should behave. If the core team doesn't agree with the values that they claim to agree to, and show this disdain by not enforcing their own rules, then why would they bother creating that governance structure in the first place? They are just being consistent with the processes that they agreed to and subjected themselves to. That's governance. Personally, I think it would be more alarming to the community if certain people didn't have to follow the rules. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of not discussing the original decision in general. If there was, nobody seems to be following the rules as there are 8 billion Reddit threads on the topic. I knew nothing about this and had Names Named in about 3 seconds of searching. As a result, I don't think there is some sort of conspiracy taking place. Enough ink has been spilled on this issue; does it really need to be brought up again in a thread about voting systems?

djaouen 2y ago

[flagged]

mixmastamyk 2y ago

My spidey sense first got tingling a few years ago when the Python powers decided they were going to rename their git master branch to something else. Caused them unnecessary work and to this day it's not certain any developer or user actually asked for it. The word has multiple meanings of course; yet felt like a symbolic gesture to alleviate guilt totally unrelated to Python. I didn't complain without a dog in the hunt, but I noticed those that did were implied to be monsters, and told that their mild disagreement "would not look good to history." Unfortunately a few years later I can say the opposite. Well, Guido made his bed, now it's time to lie in it. ;-)

cool_dude85 2y ago
>Unfortunately a few years later I can say the opposite. It's your contention that people getting up in arms about not changing the name of the 'master' branch specifically look good now, with hindsight? Can't say I agree.
- Izkata 2y ago
  That the people implying they were monsters were the actual monsters.
  - consteval 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - mixmastamyk 2y ago
      It broke scripts and docs. Funny enough I never liked that name early on, in preference to to hg’s default. But once done for years, no point in changing it.
    - eadmund 2y ago
      > For some people changing master -> main isn't a nothing burger, it's actively harmful. I constantly have pain — years after the Summer of Floyd — from repos I follow which change the name of their master branch from ‘master’ to ‘main,’ which breaks all sorts of tooling, sometimes silently (my local copies stay on ‘master,’ and never get updates), sometimes noisily. That switching is actively harmful. > Some people genuinely love the name master and want it to stay and yes, that is weird. I don’t particularly love it, but it is the correct name for the master version (as opposed to a local copy, or a remote copy, or a feature branch, or a custom branch, or whatever) of a repo.

ThinkBeat 2y ago

This type of behavior is abusing the members of the community. Code of conducts should contain language to dissuade bureaucrats from participating and especially from attempts at grabbing power. As well as a straightforward way to report bureaucrats and have them removed from the community. Based on the same process as other abuses that may already be included int the code of conduct.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mark-r 2y ago

Wow. If you needed proof that Guido isn't BDFL anymore, this is it.

lupire 2y ago

It's easier to run a Model UN game than develop a programming language.

infamia 2y ago

"We've found a witch may we burn her?!" -- Monty Python and the Holy Grail (also the PSF lately) https://youtu.be/X2xlQaimsGg?feature=shared&t=13 https://youtu.be/X2xlQaimsGg?feature=shared&t=13 FYI, Python is named after Monty Python , who got into all kinds of trouble making fun of and saying things that upset basically everyone (religion to LGBT), which is ironic considering the circumstances.

ckemere 2y ago

Why has no one pointed out that GvR posted a second time on the thread. That seems to suggest he is still actively engaged in the community?

randomcarbloke 2y ago

why do steering committees for languages always devolve into this absurdity, usually by people with comparatively little technical capability. Drama Driven Development is truly the paradigm of the last 5 years.

TimK65 2y ago

GvR's first comment, mentioning (but not naming) the banned person, is now visible to me, at least.

0xbadc0de5 2y ago

You can vote your way into a CoC but you need to fork your way out. When Codes of Conduct were first introduced, they sounded like a benign concept. But now it's becoming increasing clear that they're the Trojan horse that allows the inmates to take over the asylum.

kofejnik 2y ago

I'm sorry but I have to reuse an old comment: Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration. Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc. The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.

gvanrossum 2y ago

This is Guido. I can assure you there was nothing nefarious. The incident is best described as moderation automation misfiring. The post was restored and a moderator has apologized for the mishap.

skylurk 2y ago
Thanks for clarifying! I'm surprised this is your first post here. If they do ever ban you over there, we'd be honoured to have you around ;)

RevEng 2y ago

It's wonderful seeing this three days later after Guido himself has come in to say that this was nothing nefarious and more of an automation mishap. Yet here stands dozens of comments from people crying about how code of conduct is ruining the world and the PSF and SC should be dismantled. As is often the case, there is usually more to the story and we would be better off learning what really happened instead of immediately jumping to conclusions and then blaming people based on those conclusions. Otherwise we look rather silly when it ends up that it was all just a mistake and we risk ruining a good thing by our rash judgements.

mixmastamyk 2y ago
This is not one event in isolation, but rather a string of similar ones. And several folks did flag the post, did they not?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kavok1891 2y ago

This is just nuts. Political correctness is gonna ruin great projects that should be guided with technical merits.