19 ms·

Snowden: The arrest of Durov is an assault on the basic human rights

132 points by hggh 2y ago

ChumpGPT 2y ago
Would Snowden have said the same thing if Durov didn't escape from Russia before he was arrested? Probably not, Snowden is part of the Russian Spy and Disinformation campaign. He is basically a Russian agent.
- atlaspod 2y ago
  Exactly my thought too.
- DaSHacka 2y ago
  > Probably not, Snowden is part of the Russian Spy and Disinformation campaign. He is basically a Russian agent. love when everything inconvenient to the United States government and it's affiliates is "disinformation"
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > when everything inconvenient to the United States government and it's affiliates is "disinformation" That's not what disinformation means. Disinformation is a polite way of saying lies [1]. [1] https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/schwerpunkte/EN/disinformation/examples-of-russian-disinformation-and-the-facts.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/schwerpunkte/EN/disinform...
  - ChumpGPT 2y ago
    Really? How convenient for you to just blame the USA and list France as an affiliate. If the USA wanted him (Durov), they could have arrested him a long time ago. Why doesn't Snowden speak about the horrors of the Russian war in Ukraine where woman and children are raped and shot? He only speaks when it is beneficial for his masters.
    - vgb2k18 2y ago
      "Why doesn't Snowden speak about...", this would be because he likes breathing.
  - ath3nd 2y ago
    > love when everything inconvenient to the United States government and it's affiliates is "disinformation" I thought and still think that Snowden is a brave and righteous man for airing the US government's dirty laundry. Not him becoming a Russian citizen, but rather his silence on the bloody war of Putin, however, makes me think that I should take Snowden's words with a pinch of salt.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
      He is living in Russia. A place where government critics have a tendency to defenestrate themselves. That he is not openly endorsing the current government might be as much latitude as he is allowed.
    - ScottBurson 2y ago
      Do you really think Putin would hesitate to arrest him if he did that? Snowden knows he is being watched closely. I suppose that is itself a reason to take what he says with a grain of salt, but I certainly don't take his silence on the Ukraine war as evidence of assent.
      - ath3nd 2y ago
        It's just not like Snowden of the past to endorse apps with bad privacy defaults and non encrypted group chats like Telegram. I'd have understood if he had said the same if the CEO of Signal was arrested, but I can't understand it for Telegram, an app that's mostly not used in an e2e encrypted way. Telegram is also an app that is widely used by Russian troops to organize and also for dissemination of propaganda and misinformation. It's just not characteristic of Snowden to endorse apps that could potentially be honeypots/backdoored, and to equate such apps as important to free speech.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    and love the people that only apply this thinking in a foreign policy context and not domestic because it's inconvenient to their party...
  - JAlexoid 2y ago
    > love when everything inconvenient to the United States government and it's affiliates is "disinformation" This tweet is literally plain propaganda move, as it has little to do with human rights... and Snowden has been a treasure trove of Russian sponsored propaganda lately. To the point of me thinking that his Twitter is just some FSB agent writing posts for him.
- jatotebs 2y ago
  [dead]
- leto_ii 2y ago
  > Would Snowden have said the same thing if Durov didn't escape from Russia before he was arrested? Why not? What's the thinking here? > Probably not, Snowden is part of the Russian Spy and Disinformation campaign. He is basically a Russian agent. Any evidence for that?
  - rasz 2y ago
    >Any evidence for that? at this point he is at the mercy of his FSB handler, either he posts what he is told/expected to or he loses usefulness and joins Russell 'Texas' Bentley as a cautionary tale.
    - rockskon 2y ago
      His continued existance in Russia antagonizes the US Intelligence Community. That itself has value to Russia. Not tremendous value, but value nevertheless.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Any evidence for that? No. But it's reasonable to presume he's a compromised source. That doesn't mean he wants to be, nor that everything he's saying has been dictated to him. But his public communications would be, at the very least, monitored and vetted.
    - leto_ii 2y ago
      Assuming that that's true (which wouldn't make any sense to me, but let's say), why would Snowden defend Durov?
      - jrm4 2y ago
        If Telegram helps Mother Russia more than it hurts it, which it likely does + it's something Snowden would reasonably say. Makes perfect sense to me.
      - JAlexoid 2y ago
- marcusverus 2y ago
  Snowden left the United States because the Federal Government wants to imprison him. The government wants to imprison him because he revealed them to be engaged in illegal surveillance on a scale that makes the Stasi's seem modest by comparison. To stay out of prison, he had to go to a country which wouldn't extradite him, hence his presence in Russia. Edward Snowden is a hero who has made a tremendous sacrifice for Americans and for American ideals. The fact that he has to live in Russia to enjoy peace and freedom is a damning indictment, to be sure, but not of Edward Snowden.
  - GuB-42 2y ago
    I wouldn't call it a "tremendous sacrifice" then. It would have been had he decided to face trial, or at least not flee to a country that is the historical enemy of the US with access to who knows how many copies of secret documents so that he could save his ass. I don't know how a trial would have ended, but considering how much public attention he got, including many supporters, he would have had a fair trial, or at least, fair enough for the cameras. Chances are that by now, he would have served his time in prison (he broke the law after all) and be a free US citizen. After all, Assange and Manning are both free right now. Yes, years in prison is not fun, at all (hence the "sacrifice" part), but I guess his stay in Russia is not particularly fun either. And now, he risks an even greater sentence should he go back to the US. His actions, though undeniably human, taint his status as a hero.
    - marcusverus 2y ago
      > I wouldn't call it a "tremendous sacrifice" then. Moving 10K miles away from you family and friends, never to return home isn't a tremendous sacrifice? Living the rest of your life in fear of being snatched up or murdered by the CIA isn't a tremendous sacrifice? Okay, dude. > It would have been had he decided to face trial It's only a sacrifice if you submit corrupt justice? Yikes. > or at least not flee to a country that is the historical enemy of the US... This is the best option to avoid extradition, as you well know. > ...with access to who knows how many copies of secret documents so that he could save his ass. What a damning hypothetical! > I don't know how a trial would have ended, but considering how much public attention he got, including many supporters, he would have had a fair trial, or at least, fair enough for the cameras. This is weaselspeak for "we all know he wouldn't have gotten a fair trial." > Chances are that by now, he would have served his time in prison A decade in prison. For doing his duty. > His actions, though undeniably human, taint his status as a hero. Yours is the morality of a Vichy collaborator. True heroes submit to injustice? Bullshit! True heroes fight injustice and thumb their noses at corrupt centers of power.
skeeter2020 2y ago
It really feels like anyone coming down at the extreme of either side of this (the French government and Snowden included) is greatly simplifying a very complex issue.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  Is it complicated? telegram purports to be "encrypted". There has been no audit of that. The servers live in a country with questionable legal standing for digital citizens. What the French say they are arresting him for, and what they actually know might not be the same. Given telegrams position the cyber criminal world, and its place in Russia and eastern Europe I would not be surprised if there is a litany of reasons we aren't hearing about.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Is it complicated? Yes. We're dealing with French law on French soil in respect of a dual national. We literally have zero official documents from the arrest. (EDIT: We got one!) This could be an elaborate scheme to route out an FSB plot. Or it could be as simple as he has a bunch of drugs on his jet. In summary, it's a fundamentally complicated situation into which we have imperfect information. Coming to a strong conclusion, at this point, is an expression of faith. Not reason.
    - judge2020 2y ago
      I think this is the doc, saw it on Twitter 1h ago: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26%20-%20CP%20TELEGRAM%20.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files... relevant: > So it appears that Pavel Durov has been using cryptography without a license. Direct link to image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV7S_fMaoAAf3w3?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV7S_fMaoAAf3w3?format=jpg&name=... https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828130491805192226 https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828130491805192226
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
judge2020 2y ago
The data the French government wants is in cleartext on Telegram's servers, but is there an argument to be made that, at least ethically, communications should be protected regardless of encrypted vs plaintext, and police should just do regular detective work to catch criminals? Edit: PDF for the arrest warrant so that it's in context for the comments: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26%20-%20CP%20TELEGRAM%20.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > an argument to be made that, at least ethically, communications should be protected regardless of encrypted vs plaintext, and police should just do regular detective work to catch criminals? France has fairly extreme data retention requirements [1]. [1] https://www.conseil-etat.fr/en/news/connection-data-the-council-of-state-conciliates-the-implementation-of-european-union-law-and-the-effectiveness-of-the-fight-against-terrorism-and https://www.conseil-etat.fr/en/news/connection-data-the-coun...
- nabla9 2y ago
  Sending warrants and subpoenas is regular detective work.
  - effingwewt 2y ago
    Not when it's to another country with its own laws. Seeing stuff like in the past few decades has me viewing criminals and police more and more alike. At least the criminals don't hide behind a facade of public service/good.
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  It is (unfortunately) regular police work.....nowadays. Only criminals (and their defenders) complained about fingerprints being used as id, nowadays it's expected. Time moves on. I did set up telegram today...my contribution to the noise, as I'm a very firm believer in communications being very protected. I do highly commend Snowdon for what he has done in the past, but his (though highly understandable) silence regarding Ukraine puts him on my shitlist. Very low down on it, but on it all the same.
rasz 2y ago
>basic human rights - selling drugs - selling hacking/ddossing services - posting beheading videos, latest one had Ukrainian soldiers head on a spike - sending cruise missile targeting coordinates to military units According to outraged russians those all among the things French prosecutors mentioned in arrest warrant.
- artemonster 2y ago
  unless he personally did all of those, this is a separate issue. by the same logic you dont sue gun manufacturers for all the deaths caused by these guns.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > you dont sue gun manufacturers for all the deaths caused by these guns We literally had to pass a law because people kept doing that [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_...
    - jacobgkau 2y ago
      So we don't do it anymore.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        The exception proves the rule. In general, we hold providers liable for the damage their goods and services do.
- jatotebs 2y ago
  Drugs are sold on every platform, including Instagram. The other parts are just as likely to end up on Facebook as they are Telegram too, there really is no point in trying to make this sound like the USA-based platforms aren't utterly rife with the things you mentioned too. The only difference here is that Telegram isn't USA-owned and doesn't need to bow down to the USA Govt.
isodev 2y ago
If Snowden is concerned about human rights, why posting on Twitter? Is it really Snowden posting from that account or “Snowden”.
- valiant55 2y ago
  Snowden has been a Russian mouthpiece since he fled and shouldn't be trusted. That said, he did what most of us wouldn't and is just doing what you have to do to survive. With all that said, this appears to be the correct take based on what information we have today.
  - andix 2y ago
    Exactly. This fact probably sickens him greatly, but it's the reality. He chose Russia over prison. He didn't get freedom with that deal, just a much nicer life (hopefully).
    - psunavy03 2y ago
      > He chose Russia over prison. And this says all you need to know about his (lack of) character. If he had the courage of his convictions, he'd return and face the music.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > If he had the courage of his convictions, he'd return and face the music He probably can't.
        psunavy03 2y ago
        Because he's now in bed with the FSB.
      - andix 2y ago
        Russia was a very different country in 2013. He was deeply convinced he was doing the right thing, so I totally understand why he doesn't want to face US prosecution. It all comes down to the moral quandary if his whistleblowing was ethical or unethical.
ChumpGPT 2y ago
Because Russia is a bastion of Human rights and freedom....
- jatotebs 2y ago
  Can you tell me who is a bastion of Human right and freedom? Personally, I'm struggling to think of any right now.
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    Countries where the legal system provides a way to discuss, define, and defend human rights qualify, imho. No system is perfect, but those that follow laws pertaining to human rights are generally closer to the ideal. It's about this subtle difference: USA: "We have no problem with someone saying that the president is an idiot" Russia: "We have no problem with someone saying that the US president is an idiot"
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    EASY. Nordic social democracies, Iceland. I know someone will respond with some examples of them capitulating to big bad America somewhere, but they are absolutely bastions of Human rights and freedoms. New Zeland is likely up there too, likely Luxembourg/Switzerland and other tax havens. The Baltics are pretty good.
    - culebron21 2y ago
      Julian Assange case shows things change when it comes to big politics. > On 5 February 2016, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights announced that the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention had found that the UK and Swedish governments were holding Assange in arbitrary detention by initially keeping him in isolation at Wandsworth prison and because the Swedish prosecutor was conducting its investigation with a "lack of diligence". The Working Group said Assange should be allowed to walk free and be given compensation.[113][114][115] The UK and Swedish governments denied the charge of detaining Assange arbitrarily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_Authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_...
andix 2y ago
There is no free speech in Russia anymore. This includes Edward Snowden as long as he's living in Russia. Please just ignore what he's saying until he leaves Russia or Russia becomes a free country again. The only reason Edward Snowden got asylum in Russia is using him for propaganda.
- superkuh 2y ago
  There's a pretty easy solution for this: the USA can stop trying to imprison and/or disappear Edward Snowden for reporting on it's crimes against it's citizens. Then he could just come home. The goal of the USA trapping him there was to get people to disregard his opinions like this. Yes, he can't say the truth regarding the Russia. But he can still say the truth regarding France. And this is the truth. If this were done by another less powerful country there would be (and has been) outrage.
  - simonebrunozzi 2y ago
    its, not it's
  - andix 2y ago
    Russia will never let him go. They will point a gun at him and let him explain on camera how great Russia is and why he's never going to leave. He became an essential part of their propaganda, he doesn't even have to do it in person, his X account is enough.
    - surfingdino 2y ago
      Never say never. They will gladly drop him off on the border with Poland and tell the US to pick him up once they have no use for him. The only reason they won't do it is to assure spies working for them that they will always be "taken care of" by Russia.
      - andix 2y ago
        If they don't have any use for him anymore, he will fall out of a window or get a heart attack.
nabla9 2y ago
Everyone must cooperate when they receive legal warrants and subpoenas. That's normal police work. There is the right way and the wrong way. Wrong way: Telegram keeps records and refuses to cooperate. Telegram faces consequences. Right way: Signal cooperates. They give two Unix timestamps. One for when the account was created and the date the account last connected to the Signal service. https://signal.org/bigbrother/cd-california-grand-jury/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/cd-california-grand-jury/ See also: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/
- thelastparadise 2y ago
  How do we know Signal actually does that?
  - sunbum 2y ago
    Did you even click the link?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - nabla9 2y ago
    They simply can't collect much. Plus keeping secret records would be massive legal liability, especially in the EU. The protocol is public. Signal software is free and open-source. Its mobile clients, desktop client, and server are all published under the AGPL-3.0. Any modifications for the app binaries and protocols would be quickly noticed. Hackers and cybersecurity companies are not fools.
    - sva_ 2y ago
      > Any modifications for the app binaries and protocols would be quickly noticed. Hackers and cybersecurity companies are not fools. Would it though? The Signal server source repo was once not updated for almost a year until somebody noticed and called them out on it: https://lemmy.ml/post/55595 https://lemmy.ml/post/55595
Qem 2y ago
I bet Durov arrest has little to do with any bullshit charges the French government is accusing him of, and more to do with Telegram being used to document the Gaza genocide. Once a platform allows the world see images of children bodies torn by IDF bombs, governments rush to throw any pretense of free speech out of the window.
- dunekid 2y ago
  Absolutely true. Anything to deny the Genocide, while the Zionists themselves watch and mock the destruction.
jrm4 2y ago
Yeah, Snowden's kind of no longer the authority on any of this anymore: But more to the point; I find it kind of hilarious how the crypto bros* are UP IN ARMS over this; like weren't y'all supposed to make a blockchain version of this or something? Did y'all forget the whole "decentralization" bit? *I do the crypto thing a bit myself, but yes, I do mean to talk about a certain type.
regnull 2y ago
Ok, before everyone loses their minds over this, let me point out some interesting details: - Durov was an author of VKontakte, I suppose you can say it's Russian Facebook, then there were some events resulting in him leaving VK, and leaving the country; - He started Telegram, and supposedly at this point he was a dissident, but strangely, in Russia everyone and their brother were using Telegram. This includes government officials, military, etc, etc. - The latest developments occurred after he visited Azerbaijan, where it was speculated he met Putin. Right after that, he boards his plane and goes directly to Paris, where he knew he was wanted. There are some speculations that he wanted to be arrested, because the alternative was worse. How worse? It's a speculation, obviously, but we know what Putin can do to people he disagree with. Bottom line, there is much we don't know about this. Reducing it to "free speech" issue is simplifying it. Somebody like Snowden, who said nothing about free speech in Russia (where basically everything is censored), should refrain from commenting. Finally, I find it's unacceptable that we have to rely on software provided by PRIVATE COMPANIES to securely communicate between individuals. This is what the Internet was supposed to be about - a set of communication standards. With the current state of cryptography, we should be able to solve this as a public standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov
- regnull 2y ago
  You should also look into who's screaming bloody murder following his arrest. Basically, all the usual Russian characters - the foreign ministry which somehow managed to put together a protest super fast on the weekend, all the Russia TV personas, "independent journalists", and the Western useful idiots - Musk first among them. That would never happen for a regular "dissident".
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > occurred after he visited Azerbaijan, where it was speculated he met Putin. Right after that, he boards his plane and goes directly to Paris How credible are these claims?
bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
Running a platform that hosts child porn is a basic human right? Stop spreading propaganda comrade Snowden.
jokoon 2y ago
Funny because I remember he criticized telegram
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
seydor 2y ago
"Appease the police As A Service". Makes your startup appear comformant to the capricious demands of police , appeases regulators by doing minimal crime detection. If facebook and instagram can get away with it, so can you. Sign up for just 99.99 /mo. We will go to jail for you.
magicmicah85 2y ago
Is Durov even charged with anything? As I understand this release, he is being detained for questioning on an unnamed person being charged to several offenses: https://x.com/jsrailton/status/1828125807035756706 https://x.com/jsrailton/status/1828125807035756706
- ngetchell 2y ago
  The twitter link you posted contain the charge docs. Do they not?
  - magicmicah85 2y ago
    No, it states Durov was arrested in context of a judicial investigation of a an unnamed person. Durov himself, to my knowledge, has not been charged with any crimes.
    - andix 2y ago
      In European legislation "getting charged" usually happens after the investigation is finished. This can take many months, even years. Until then the arrest warrant is periodically checked in court by a judge.
bloopernova 2y ago
There seems to be a feeling that implies "telegram being unmoderated is a public benefit that outweighs the negative impact." I'm not understanding the logic there. CSAM not being taken down after a request from law enforcement is an awful thing. I've also read that you get bombarded by drugs and sex trafficking if you search locally, which is seriously yuck if it's true. Does that really happen?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  Searching locally showed me 100% porn/sex worker accounts that appear to be fakes and bots but I didn't inquire.
wnevets 2y ago
A mouthpiece for the kremlin talking about basic human rights is hilarious
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jemmyw 2y ago
the most interesting thing I've read on this subject is that Russia is using Telegram as a military communication tool. In the early days of the Ukraine war there were some reports on how the offical communication infrastructure they had built had failed quite badly. There's speculation (but no proof) that Russia already has access to the cryptographic keys for Telegram. They were very intent on getting access or banning the service some years ago, and then rather suddenly stopped talking about it.

132 points by hggh 2y ago

Would Snowden have said the same thing if Durov didn't escape from Russia before he was arrested? Probably not, Snowden is part of the Russian Spy and Disinformation campaign. He is basically a Russian agent.

atlaspod 2y ago
Exactly my thought too.
DaSHacka 2y ago
> Probably not, Snowden is part of the Russian Spy and Disinformation campaign. He is basically a Russian agent. love when everything inconvenient to the United States government and it's affiliates is "disinformation"
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > when everything inconvenient to the United States government and it's affiliates is "disinformation" That's not what disinformation means. Disinformation is a polite way of saying lies [1]. [1] https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/schwerpunkte/EN/disinformation/examples-of-russian-disinformation-and-the-facts.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/schwerpunkte/EN/disinform...
- ChumpGPT 2y ago
  Really? How convenient for you to just blame the USA and list France as an affiliate. If the USA wanted him (Durov), they could have arrested him a long time ago. Why doesn't Snowden speak about the horrors of the Russian war in Ukraine where woman and children are raped and shot? He only speaks when it is beneficial for his masters.
  - vgb2k18 2y ago
    "Why doesn't Snowden speak about...", this would be because he likes breathing.
- ath3nd 2y ago
  > love when everything inconvenient to the United States government and it's affiliates is "disinformation" I thought and still think that Snowden is a brave and righteous man for airing the US government's dirty laundry. Not him becoming a Russian citizen, but rather his silence on the bloody war of Putin, however, makes me think that I should take Snowden's words with a pinch of salt.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    He is living in Russia. A place where government critics have a tendency to defenestrate themselves. That he is not openly endorsing the current government might be as much latitude as he is allowed.
  - ScottBurson 2y ago
    Do you really think Putin would hesitate to arrest him if he did that? Snowden knows he is being watched closely. I suppose that is itself a reason to take what he says with a grain of salt, but I certainly don't take his silence on the Ukraine war as evidence of assent.
    - ath3nd 2y ago
      It's just not like Snowden of the past to endorse apps with bad privacy defaults and non encrypted group chats like Telegram. I'd have understood if he had said the same if the CEO of Signal was arrested, but I can't understand it for Telegram, an app that's mostly not used in an e2e encrypted way. Telegram is also an app that is widely used by Russian troops to organize and also for dissemination of propaganda and misinformation. It's just not characteristic of Snowden to endorse apps that could potentially be honeypots/backdoored, and to equate such apps as important to free speech.
- busterarm 2y ago
  and love the people that only apply this thinking in a foreign policy context and not domestic because it's inconvenient to their party...
- JAlexoid 2y ago
  > love when everything inconvenient to the United States government and it's affiliates is "disinformation" This tweet is literally plain propaganda move, as it has little to do with human rights... and Snowden has been a treasure trove of Russian sponsored propaganda lately. To the point of me thinking that his Twitter is just some FSB agent writing posts for him.
jatotebs 2y ago
[dead]
leto_ii 2y ago
> Would Snowden have said the same thing if Durov didn't escape from Russia before he was arrested? Why not? What's the thinking here? > Probably not, Snowden is part of the Russian Spy and Disinformation campaign. He is basically a Russian agent. Any evidence for that?
- rasz 2y ago
  >Any evidence for that? at this point he is at the mercy of his FSB handler, either he posts what he is told/expected to or he loses usefulness and joins Russell 'Texas' Bentley as a cautionary tale.
  - rockskon 2y ago
    His continued existance in Russia antagonizes the US Intelligence Community. That itself has value to Russia. Not tremendous value, but value nevertheless.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Any evidence for that? No. But it's reasonable to presume he's a compromised source. That doesn't mean he wants to be, nor that everything he's saying has been dictated to him. But his public communications would be, at the very least, monitored and vetted.
  - leto_ii 2y ago
    Assuming that that's true (which wouldn't make any sense to me, but let's say), why would Snowden defend Durov?
    - jrm4 2y ago
      If Telegram helps Mother Russia more than it hurts it, which it likely does + it's something Snowden would reasonably say. Makes perfect sense to me.
    - JAlexoid 2y ago
marcusverus 2y ago
Snowden left the United States because the Federal Government wants to imprison him. The government wants to imprison him because he revealed them to be engaged in illegal surveillance on a scale that makes the Stasi's seem modest by comparison. To stay out of prison, he had to go to a country which wouldn't extradite him, hence his presence in Russia. Edward Snowden is a hero who has made a tremendous sacrifice for Americans and for American ideals. The fact that he has to live in Russia to enjoy peace and freedom is a damning indictment, to be sure, but not of Edward Snowden.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  I wouldn't call it a "tremendous sacrifice" then. It would have been had he decided to face trial, or at least not flee to a country that is the historical enemy of the US with access to who knows how many copies of secret documents so that he could save his ass. I don't know how a trial would have ended, but considering how much public attention he got, including many supporters, he would have had a fair trial, or at least, fair enough for the cameras. Chances are that by now, he would have served his time in prison (he broke the law after all) and be a free US citizen. After all, Assange and Manning are both free right now. Yes, years in prison is not fun, at all (hence the "sacrifice" part), but I guess his stay in Russia is not particularly fun either. And now, he risks an even greater sentence should he go back to the US. His actions, though undeniably human, taint his status as a hero.
  - marcusverus 2y ago
    > I wouldn't call it a "tremendous sacrifice" then. Moving 10K miles away from you family and friends, never to return home isn't a tremendous sacrifice? Living the rest of your life in fear of being snatched up or murdered by the CIA isn't a tremendous sacrifice? Okay, dude. > It would have been had he decided to face trial It's only a sacrifice if you submit corrupt justice? Yikes. > or at least not flee to a country that is the historical enemy of the US... This is the best option to avoid extradition, as you well know. > ...with access to who knows how many copies of secret documents so that he could save his ass. What a damning hypothetical! > I don't know how a trial would have ended, but considering how much public attention he got, including many supporters, he would have had a fair trial, or at least, fair enough for the cameras. This is weaselspeak for "we all know he wouldn't have gotten a fair trial." > Chances are that by now, he would have served his time in prison A decade in prison. For doing his duty. > His actions, though undeniably human, taint his status as a hero. Yours is the morality of a Vichy collaborator. True heroes submit to injustice? Bullshit! True heroes fight injustice and thumb their noses at corrupt centers of power.

skeeter2020 2y ago

It really feels like anyone coming down at the extreme of either side of this (the French government and Snowden included) is greatly simplifying a very complex issue.

zer00eyz 2y ago
Is it complicated? telegram purports to be "encrypted". There has been no audit of that. The servers live in a country with questionable legal standing for digital citizens. What the French say they are arresting him for, and what they actually know might not be the same. Given telegrams position the cyber criminal world, and its place in Russia and eastern Europe I would not be surprised if there is a litany of reasons we aren't hearing about.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Is it complicated? Yes. We're dealing with French law on French soil in respect of a dual national. We literally have zero official documents from the arrest. (EDIT: We got one!) This could be an elaborate scheme to route out an FSB plot. Or it could be as simple as he has a bunch of drugs on his jet. In summary, it's a fundamentally complicated situation into which we have imperfect information. Coming to a strong conclusion, at this point, is an expression of faith. Not reason.
  - judge2020 2y ago
    I think this is the doc, saw it on Twitter 1h ago: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26%20-%20CP%20TELEGRAM%20.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files... relevant: > So it appears that Pavel Durov has been using cryptography without a license. Direct link to image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV7S_fMaoAAf3w3?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV7S_fMaoAAf3w3?format=jpg&name=... https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828130491805192226 https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828130491805192226
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago

judge2020 2y ago

The data the French government wants is in cleartext on Telegram's servers, but is there an argument to be made that, at least ethically, communications should be protected regardless of encrypted vs plaintext, and police should just do regular detective work to catch criminals? Edit: PDF for the arrest warrant so that it's in context for the comments: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26%20-%20CP%20TELEGRAM%20.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files...

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> an argument to be made that, at least ethically, communications should be protected regardless of encrypted vs plaintext, and police should just do regular detective work to catch criminals? France has fairly extreme data retention requirements [1]. [1] https://www.conseil-etat.fr/en/news/connection-data-the-council-of-state-conciliates-the-implementation-of-european-union-law-and-the-effectiveness-of-the-fight-against-terrorism-and https://www.conseil-etat.fr/en/news/connection-data-the-coun...
nabla9 2y ago
Sending warrants and subpoenas is regular detective work.
- effingwewt 2y ago
  Not when it's to another country with its own laws. Seeing stuff like in the past few decades has me viewing criminals and police more and more alike. At least the criminals don't hide behind a facade of public service/good.
Ylpertnodi 2y ago
It is (unfortunately) regular police work.....nowadays. Only criminals (and their defenders) complained about fingerprints being used as id, nowadays it's expected. Time moves on. I did set up telegram today...my contribution to the noise, as I'm a very firm believer in communications being very protected. I do highly commend Snowdon for what he has done in the past, but his (though highly understandable) silence regarding Ukraine puts him on my shitlist. Very low down on it, but on it all the same.

rasz 2y ago

>basic human rights - selling drugs - selling hacking/ddossing services - posting beheading videos, latest one had Ukrainian soldiers head on a spike - sending cruise missile targeting coordinates to military units According to outraged russians those all among the things French prosecutors mentioned in arrest warrant.

artemonster 2y ago
unless he personally did all of those, this is a separate issue. by the same logic you dont sue gun manufacturers for all the deaths caused by these guns.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > you dont sue gun manufacturers for all the deaths caused by these guns We literally had to pass a law because people kept doing that [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_...
  - jacobgkau 2y ago
    So we don't do it anymore.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      The exception proves the rule. In general, we hold providers liable for the damage their goods and services do.
jatotebs 2y ago
Drugs are sold on every platform, including Instagram. The other parts are just as likely to end up on Facebook as they are Telegram too, there really is no point in trying to make this sound like the USA-based platforms aren't utterly rife with the things you mentioned too. The only difference here is that Telegram isn't USA-owned and doesn't need to bow down to the USA Govt.

isodev 2y ago

If Snowden is concerned about human rights, why posting on Twitter? Is it really Snowden posting from that account or “Snowden”.

valiant55 2y ago
Snowden has been a Russian mouthpiece since he fled and shouldn't be trusted. That said, he did what most of us wouldn't and is just doing what you have to do to survive. With all that said, this appears to be the correct take based on what information we have today.
- andix 2y ago
  Exactly. This fact probably sickens him greatly, but it's the reality. He chose Russia over prison. He didn't get freedom with that deal, just a much nicer life (hopefully).
  - psunavy03 2y ago
    > He chose Russia over prison. And this says all you need to know about his (lack of) character. If he had the courage of his convictions, he'd return and face the music.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > If he had the courage of his convictions, he'd return and face the music He probably can't.
      - psunavy03 2y ago
        Because he's now in bed with the FSB.
    - andix 2y ago
      Russia was a very different country in 2013. He was deeply convinced he was doing the right thing, so I totally understand why he doesn't want to face US prosecution. It all comes down to the moral quandary if his whistleblowing was ethical or unethical.

ChumpGPT 2y ago

Because Russia is a bastion of Human rights and freedom....

jatotebs 2y ago
Can you tell me who is a bastion of Human right and freedom? Personally, I'm struggling to think of any right now.
- surfingdino 2y ago
  Countries where the legal system provides a way to discuss, define, and defend human rights qualify, imho. No system is perfect, but those that follow laws pertaining to human rights are generally closer to the ideal. It's about this subtle difference: USA: "We have no problem with someone saying that the president is an idiot" Russia: "We have no problem with someone saying that the US president is an idiot"
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  EASY. Nordic social democracies, Iceland. I know someone will respond with some examples of them capitulating to big bad America somewhere, but they are absolutely bastions of Human rights and freedoms. New Zeland is likely up there too, likely Luxembourg/Switzerland and other tax havens. The Baltics are pretty good.
  - culebron21 2y ago
    Julian Assange case shows things change when it comes to big politics. > On 5 February 2016, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights announced that the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention had found that the UK and Swedish governments were holding Assange in arbitrary detention by initially keeping him in isolation at Wandsworth prison and because the Swedish prosecutor was conducting its investigation with a "lack of diligence". The Working Group said Assange should be allowed to walk free and be given compensation.[113][114][115] The UK and Swedish governments denied the charge of detaining Assange arbitrarily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_Authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assange_v_Swedish_Prosecution_...

andix 2y ago

There is no free speech in Russia anymore. This includes Edward Snowden as long as he's living in Russia. Please just ignore what he's saying until he leaves Russia or Russia becomes a free country again. The only reason Edward Snowden got asylum in Russia is using him for propaganda.

superkuh 2y ago
There's a pretty easy solution for this: the USA can stop trying to imprison and/or disappear Edward Snowden for reporting on it's crimes against it's citizens. Then he could just come home. The goal of the USA trapping him there was to get people to disregard his opinions like this. Yes, he can't say the truth regarding the Russia. But he can still say the truth regarding France. And this is the truth. If this were done by another less powerful country there would be (and has been) outrage.
- simonebrunozzi 2y ago
  its, not it's
- andix 2y ago
  Russia will never let him go. They will point a gun at him and let him explain on camera how great Russia is and why he's never going to leave. He became an essential part of their propaganda, he doesn't even have to do it in person, his X account is enough.
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    Never say never. They will gladly drop him off on the border with Poland and tell the US to pick him up once they have no use for him. The only reason they won't do it is to assure spies working for them that they will always be "taken care of" by Russia.
    - andix 2y ago
      If they don't have any use for him anymore, he will fall out of a window or get a heart attack.

nabla9 2y ago

Everyone must cooperate when they receive legal warrants and subpoenas. That's normal police work. There is the right way and the wrong way. Wrong way: Telegram keeps records and refuses to cooperate. Telegram faces consequences. Right way: Signal cooperates. They give two Unix timestamps. One for when the account was created and the date the account last connected to the Signal service. https://signal.org/bigbrother/cd-california-grand-jury/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/cd-california-grand-jury/ See also: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/

thelastparadise 2y ago
How do we know Signal actually does that?
- sunbum 2y ago
  Did you even click the link?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- nabla9 2y ago
  They simply can't collect much. Plus keeping secret records would be massive legal liability, especially in the EU. The protocol is public. Signal software is free and open-source. Its mobile clients, desktop client, and server are all published under the AGPL-3.0. Any modifications for the app binaries and protocols would be quickly noticed. Hackers and cybersecurity companies are not fools.
  - sva_ 2y ago
    > Any modifications for the app binaries and protocols would be quickly noticed. Hackers and cybersecurity companies are not fools. Would it though? The Signal server source repo was once not updated for almost a year until somebody noticed and called them out on it: https://lemmy.ml/post/55595 https://lemmy.ml/post/55595

Qem 2y ago

I bet Durov arrest has little to do with any bullshit charges the French government is accusing him of, and more to do with Telegram being used to document the Gaza genocide. Once a platform allows the world see images of children bodies torn by IDF bombs, governments rush to throw any pretense of free speech out of the window.

dunekid 2y ago
Absolutely true. Anything to deny the Genocide, while the Zionists themselves watch and mock the destruction.

jrm4 2y ago

Yeah, Snowden's kind of no longer the authority on any of this anymore: But more to the point; I find it kind of hilarious how the crypto bros* are UP IN ARMS over this; like weren't y'all supposed to make a blockchain version of this or something? Did y'all forget the whole "decentralization" bit? *I do the crypto thing a bit myself, but yes, I do mean to talk about a certain type.

regnull 2y ago

Ok, before everyone loses their minds over this, let me point out some interesting details: - Durov was an author of VKontakte, I suppose you can say it's Russian Facebook, then there were some events resulting in him leaving VK, and leaving the country; - He started Telegram, and supposedly at this point he was a dissident, but strangely, in Russia everyone and their brother were using Telegram. This includes government officials, military, etc, etc. - The latest developments occurred after he visited Azerbaijan, where it was speculated he met Putin. Right after that, he boards his plane and goes directly to Paris, where he knew he was wanted. There are some speculations that he wanted to be arrested, because the alternative was worse. How worse? It's a speculation, obviously, but we know what Putin can do to people he disagree with. Bottom line, there is much we don't know about this. Reducing it to "free speech" issue is simplifying it. Somebody like Snowden, who said nothing about free speech in Russia (where basically everything is censored), should refrain from commenting. Finally, I find it's unacceptable that we have to rely on software provided by PRIVATE COMPANIES to securely communicate between individuals. This is what the Internet was supposed to be about - a set of communication standards. With the current state of cryptography, we should be able to solve this as a public standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov

regnull 2y ago
You should also look into who's screaming bloody murder following his arrest. Basically, all the usual Russian characters - the foreign ministry which somehow managed to put together a protest super fast on the weekend, all the Russia TV personas, "independent journalists", and the Western useful idiots - Musk first among them. That would never happen for a regular "dissident".
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> occurred after he visited Azerbaijan, where it was speculated he met Putin. Right after that, he boards his plane and goes directly to Paris How credible are these claims?

bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago

Running a platform that hosts child porn is a basic human right? Stop spreading propaganda comrade Snowden.

jokoon 2y ago

Funny because I remember he criticized telegram

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

seydor 2y ago

"Appease the police As A Service". Makes your startup appear comformant to the capricious demands of police , appeases regulators by doing minimal crime detection. If facebook and instagram can get away with it, so can you. Sign up for just 99.99 /mo. We will go to jail for you.

magicmicah85 2y ago

Is Durov even charged with anything? As I understand this release, he is being detained for questioning on an unnamed person being charged to several offenses: https://x.com/jsrailton/status/1828125807035756706 https://x.com/jsrailton/status/1828125807035756706

ngetchell 2y ago
The twitter link you posted contain the charge docs. Do they not?
- magicmicah85 2y ago
  No, it states Durov was arrested in context of a judicial investigation of a an unnamed person. Durov himself, to my knowledge, has not been charged with any crimes.
  - andix 2y ago
    In European legislation "getting charged" usually happens after the investigation is finished. This can take many months, even years. Until then the arrest warrant is periodically checked in court by a judge.

bloopernova 2y ago

There seems to be a feeling that implies "telegram being unmoderated is a public benefit that outweighs the negative impact." I'm not understanding the logic there. CSAM not being taken down after a request from law enforcement is an awful thing. I've also read that you get bombarded by drugs and sex trafficking if you search locally, which is seriously yuck if it's true. Does that really happen?

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
Searching locally showed me 100% porn/sex worker accounts that appear to be fakes and bots but I didn't inquire.

wnevets 2y ago

A mouthpiece for the kremlin talking about basic human rights is hilarious

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jemmyw 2y ago

the most interesting thing I've read on this subject is that Russia is using Telegram as a military communication tool. In the early days of the Ukraine war there were some reports on how the offical communication infrastructure they had built had failed quite badly. There's speculation (but no proof) that Russia already has access to the cryptographic keys for Telegram. They were very intent on getting access or banning the service some years ago, and then rather suddenly stopped talking about it.