12 ms·
Telegram abides by EU laws, including the Digital Services Act
- aa_is_op 2y ago"It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform." What an utter ridiculous and misleading statement from the company that LITERALLY REFUSES to take down drug and malware shops from its platform. There's tens of academic studies that have looked at this problem and many of them have Telegram as the worst offender. Here's just one of the studies: https://cyber.fsi.stanford.edu/io/news/addressing-distribution-illicit-sexual-content-minors-online https://cyber.fsi.stanford.edu/io/news/addressing-distributi...
- ronsor 2y agoFacebook is also full of drug and malware shops and advertisements for such.
- DragonStrength 2y agoYep, and I think we’re way too soft on Meta for what they push and profit from on FB and Instagram.
- threeseed 2y agoMeta will take down those ads if reported. What is important when it comes to regulators is not whether you fail to comply or not. It is whether you take your responsibility to comply seriously e.g. timely responses to information requests, continuous process improvement etc.
- cpncrunch 2y agoThe Via Rail scam card ads have been on facebook for months. You can figure out it's a scam with a 2 second google search: https://www.facebook.com/viarailcanada/posts/scam-warning-avertissement-de-fraudearnaquevia-rail-has-been-made-aware-of-sever/888803923291472/ https://www.facebook.com/viarailcanada/posts/scam-warning-av... I reported it (like others in this thread), but facebook said it didn't break any rules. I requested another review, and they said the same thing, with no way for me to make any comments or replies. Perhaps they will remove certain ads if it's instantly obvious that it is illegal, but overall they're pretty terrible at moderation.
- MattGaiser 2y agoFor the VIA thing, I have legitimately earned VIA Preference Points for surveys [0] and have heard of them being offered as survey rewards at my alma mater of Queen’s University (where VIA use is pretty heavy). [0] https://campaign.askingcanadians.com/faq/via https://campaign.askingcanadians.com/faq/via So I can see some of those offers being legitimate.
- brookst 2y agoMeta being bad at following their policies is a different problem than a platform whose policies say they won’t stop abuse. You can argue which problem is worse, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that the world should treat the two problems the same.
- threeseed 2y agoThe priority for regulators are money laundering, sanctions evasion, terrorism, CSAM, trafficking etc. Serious crimes where people's lives are at stake. Scams in general are towards the bottom on everyone's priority list.
- meiraleal 2y agoWhy are you changing the focus to regulators and not meta moderation which is what you claimed that is done? (and many proved in this thread that no they don't remove content that breaks local laws).
- threeseed 2y agoBecause company behaviour is a reflection of the laws in the places it operates.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 2y agoI regularly report scam ads as well as obvious catfishing friend requests from obviously fake accounts whose only post is a sketchy URL to some "sex chat". Almost all of the reports are rejected. It seems obvious to me that Meta's moderation is mostly about pretending just enough for regulators to go away, and no more. Hell, Meta probably indirectly makes money from these scams by targeting more scams at the people who fall for them, at a premium. Meta makes money, scammers make money, regulators are content. It's a win-win-win.
- meiraleal 2y agoNo they won't. I report all the time and every one of them they told me they reviewed it and disagree the ads/posts are against the law.
- peoplefromibiza 2y agolike they did with Cambridge Analytica I guess...
- amelius 2y agoDoes that justify it then?
- spwa4 2y agoIt shows what the EU action is about. It's not about telegram's supposed crimes, whatever you think they are, because other platforms are full of the same crimes. The difference is that other platforms give EU states access to people's private messages. If you go into the technicalities of what EXACTLY this means, it started with a list of 27 organizations that got blanket access, without judicial oversight (because all of the different rules from the member states apply. Some do not require judicial oversight). Organized long ago by Interpol. It grew from there, exactly as people expected. Oh and in case you're wondering. This already exists. It is NOT about the new EU directive ("directive 92"). This is about delivering specific individual's messages, when specifically asked to, and maybe blocking them.
- tpm 2y agoWhich EU action? France which arrested Durov is not the EU. The EU can't arrest anyone, only the member states can. Durov was not arrested because of the EU DSA.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ath3nd 2y ago> The difference is that other platforms give EU states access to people's private messages. Which other platforms are you talking about because both Signal and WhatsApp are e2e encrypted?
- ratg13 2y agoWhy do you think this is an EU action and not just France? France has much tougher laws on this than the rest of the EU. In fact when publishing to the App Store as a developer you are primarily asked 2 questions. 1) What types of encryption you implement 2) Whether you are planning on making your app available in France
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mc32 2y ago…and Mastodon, and… basically all social media. So it’s likely another reason but the authorities are using legal pretenses to arrest this guy.
- heraldgeezer 2y agoInstagram and Snapchat is full of illegal shit.
- asqueella 2y agoWhat’s the source for your “LITERALLY REFUSES” claim? The study you linked names instagram as “the most important platform”…
- miohtama 2y agoTelegram does not refuse take down content. I have reported scams, phishing, selling stolen credit cards and such to Telegram and they have all taken down. Maybe not in 24h, but still taken down. Also from your study: “Our investigation finds that large networks of accounts, purportedly operated by minors, are openly advertising SG-CSAM for sale on social media. Instagram has emerged as the primary platform for such networks, providing features that facilitate connections between buyers and sellers. Instagram's popularity and user-friendly interface make it a preferred option for these activities.”
- miohtama 2y agoHere is now an article that has some numbers on Telegram moderation and policies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41354528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41354528
- aa_is_op 2y agoYes, it does. The Dutch government literally held a meeting on the topic of Telegram hosting reams of CP and revenge porn and not acting on any of their complaints for 2 years now.
- asqueella 2y agoI reported a drug bot yesterday, and it's taken down already. It's weird that the Dutch government is ignored like that. I tried Googling (without knowing Dutch I found these: https://archive.is/dGp2w https://archive.is/dGp2w https://www.inhope.org/EN/articles/tackling-csam-hosting-in-the-netherlands https://www.inhope.org/EN/articles/tackling-csam-hosting-in-... ) and I guess the difference is that I'm talking about public bots/channels, and the problem lies with private chats / groups?
- aa_is_op 2y ago>I reported a drug bot yesterday, and it's taken down already. Yes, random internet person. I believe what you say, and not totally making it up just to win an internet argument. I actually work in cybersecurity. I think I know how Telegram's support team reacts, which is not react at all.
- H3BCKN 2y agoWhat exactly is wrong with drug shops? Providing certain goods to consenting adults is not immoral. Let alone should not be a reason for them to be banned. In half of the U.S. states and European countries, cannabis is either legal or decriminalized in small amounts. In 2024, it's not a big deal, and without these means of communication, potential consumers would have to go back to the streets to purchase something, risking many dangerous situations. I'm not a 'consumer,' but I consider it a huge advantage of such platforms in terms of increasing safety and clarity.
- ohmysides 2y ago[flagged]
- amelius 2y agoCan't the EU make their own messaging app?
- ben_w 2y agoThey did it's called Skype it got bought. Also, what's that supposed to even solve?
- throwaway48540 2y agoThey could put more people in prison.
- ben_w 2y agoThat has no connection to who does or doesn't make messaging apps.
- throwaway48540 2y agoOf course it has. They had to wait until Durov went to EU, if it was an EU company they could pressure them immediately and continually.
- ben_w 2y agoNew messaging apps from inside the EU neither make it easier nor harder to imprison visiting billionaires from outside the bloc who violated local law with the messaging apps they wrote abroad. In much the same way that the mere existence of Dropbox doesn't preclude the USA from prosecuting Kim Dotcom.
- throwaway48540 2y agoMessaging apps from EU make it easier to imprison the EU-based owners and employees, and thus easier to control the platform. If Dotcom was in the US he would be in prison for a decade. It's a huge difference.
- ben_w 2y ago> It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform As the law places certain responsibilities onto platforms, if you (any platform not just Telegram) say this kind of thing, are you sure you're following the law right, or are you just saying the law is wrong and bad?
- MuffinFlavored 2y ago> > It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform Didn't some crypto mixer coin network creator just get found guilty for this?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- stefan_ 2y agoNot a good start if they start shouting about the Digital Services Act, which of course has nothing to do with their CEO being arrested at an airport.
- immibis 2y agoNot if the CEO was arrested for not doing things the Digital Services Act says he doesn't have to do.
- Timber-6539 2y agoThe more the French authorities delay in releasing official information about Durov's arrest, the worse it looks for them. I mean the West has always accused the East of employing similar tactics wrt arresting journalists/freedom fighters etc, how do we not see the irony here...
- jdasdf 2y agoThey shouldn't.
- fredgrott 2y agohmm gee setting up shell companies to avoid government subpoenas probably is not good at collaborating that narrative.
- jMyles 2y agoAt some point, the adults in the room (and specifically, a few brave and seasoned elder statesmen/women) need to stand up and state the obvious: On sufficiently long time scales, the internet will not tolerate states, and states will not be able to withstand the influence of the internet. The ability to copy and send bytes around the world, to capture and disseminate media in such a way that forces transparency, but also to facilitate and democratize private conversation, to route around censorship... these are qualities that make what are today fundamental aspects of statecraft, such as state secrets, intellectual property, control over money supply and trade, surveillance, and censorship, impossible. It's time to acknowledge that we need to transition our methods for ensuring each other's safety, well-being, freedom, justice, and prosperity via stateless channels and stop regarding states as having any jurisdiction over the internet.
- mgaunard 2y agoSounds like anti-statist propaganda.
- wmf 2y agoBasically Barlow's Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace from the 1990s. I think history has shown it to be more wrong than right.
- greenthrow 2y agoYou are delusional my dude. Servers and routers exist in meatspace. The meatspace laws win out.
- wffurr 2y agoThe printing press also existed in meat space and yet it broke the power of the medieval Catholic Church and toppled monarchies. The Internet seems like a similar invention but the effect on the nature of states is harder to fathom. I don't know if anyone living in the 1500s would have predicted a world where the top 10 militaries are all in a single alliance and the church would be a shadow of its former self. I think there are interesting times to be had. Democracies certainly seem to be feeling the effects for good and ill of the collapse of traditional gatekeepers in the face of free distribution of information.
- darkhorn 2y agohttps://turan.az/en/politics/putin-refused-to-meet-with-pavel-durov-in-baku-783760 https://turan.az/en/politics/putin-refused-to-meet-with-pave...
- adamtaylor_13 2y agoThe EU has proven itself time and time again to be so openly anti-innovation that it’s difficult to even take legislation like the Digital Services Act seriously. None of my products operate in the EU and for good reason. I have no interest in playing the legal games required to support them. I wish I more fully understood the cultural differences that make this anti-innovation stance so prevalent in the EU.
- throwaway22032 2y agoOld world aristrocratic mindset. It's not just the European Union, the UK is the same. There is a heavy bias towards what works for the incumbents. One of the ways in which this plays out in Britain is that almost everyone is culturally conditioned to consider themselves as being a certain "class" of person e.g. they'll never start a business, they'll never earn above a certain amount, they'll work 50 years for a company (not the same necessarily, just "a company"), if they're lucky they'll get a mortgage on a 2 bedroom house. They look down on others who want more than that, which works very well for those who have it and want to maintain that moat. Contrast that with the US in which success is celebrated and even the poorest dream of one day "making it".
- IdiocyInAction 2y agoThe UK leads in Europe for start up founding… Almost nobody in the UK works for the same company for 50 years and this used to be a thing in the US too. Canada has similar laws/issues. Social mobility is also higher in the UK than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index Now I don’t trust these indices tbh, but I trust them more than a nice sounding anecdote. There is a class divide in the UK but it's more complex/nuanced than what is described in this comment.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y agoThat's why Canada also is one of the worst countries in G8 and maybe the most mediocre countries when it comes to actual startup investment and building something new for the world and growing the share of the pie. On top of that, they have a horrible system where nobody can get a doctor. Everybody has to pay double to get a block of butter and housing is so high that you get a whole neighborhood in the US for that price. That is why the countries like uk canada and also Europe are incredibly poor. Class system and anti-innovation.
- vvpan 2y agoToo much talk going on without actually hearing the charges.
- gwervc 2y agoDespite claiming 24/7 it's a democratic country ruled by the rule of law, there's a lot ideological abuse of the laws used against ideological opponents going on in France. Somehow non-ideologically threatening criminals get a free pass to do whatever they want. Source: I'm living in that lunatic asylum.
- rasz 2y agoThere is a war going on in Europe right now. Real war with tanks, bombs and rockets, often hitting hospitals in Kyiv for some weird reason. This arrest put russians in a panic mode. Did you know russian army is actually using Telegram for coordinating strikes, and Discord for FPVs? https://youchu.be/watch?v=mwtbTuLZXWw https://youchu.be/watch?v=mwtbTuLZXWw You know something is up when russians, and Snowden (or his handler), are calling the arrest of French citizen in France "taking hostages".
- sudosysgen 2y agoThis is irrelevant. The Russians can just switch to Signal, or run their own instance of Telegram trivially.
- monetus 2y agoAn unrelated point on that note - The Russian army is trying to restrict phones amongst their troops right now, from what I can tell. The soldiers who need telegram the most to handle their own logistics and strategy, because that is horrificly a thing, need telegram.
- kattagarian 2y agoukrainians uses telegram just as much. It's a popular app in eastern europe and asia.
- thefz 2y agoFrom the tweet: > It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform. No, it is exactly the law.
- 2-3-7-43-1807 2y agolaws can be absurd.
- thefz 2y agoDura lex, sed lex.
- 2-3-7-43-1807 2y agovescere bracis meis
- agapon 2y agoTelegram blah blah, according to Telegram.