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I am very glad he was found out and investigated by authorities ultimately leading to this, but reading the article I can’t help but wonder: It’s interesting t

I am very glad he was found out and investigated by authorities ultimately leading to this, but reading the article I can’t help but wonder: It’s interesting that this one guy gets 24 years over 47 million dollars. Yet, not a single executive, board member, VP or SVP got arrested for the fraud that lead to the 2008 crash. We are talking orders of magnitude more than this and they declined to prosecute even though the evidence was absolutely abundant as we now know. This guy doesn’t deserve any sympathy but it should be known that he’s hardly the most egregious financial criminal walking the streets. That honor goes to Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan Chase. edit: at the very least, they should have fired all the executives from the banks, and their boards, and stripped them of their compensation packages, and clawed back anything they earned in that time period, and banning them for life from working in the financial sector in any capacity ever again. That would have been more appropriate than jail time and sent an actual message to Wall Street that this behavior won't be tolerated.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
MattGaiser 2y ago
It’s not clear to me in 2008 that anyone committed fraud to the level required. My understanding was more that things were disclosed deep in the fine print, and nobody really verified anything and didn’t have a legal obligation to do so. Who allegedly lied to the point of it being fraud in 2008?
- no_wizard 2y ago
  See my comment to a similar question that I answered already a few comments up from this one. If more information is desired, let me know, I have mountains of it, this is just the highlights to show in broad strokes the banks did indeed know they had fraudulent loans and they willingly misrepresented them.
- fortran77 2y ago
  Well, the people who lied on their mortgage applications to get loans they couldn't possibly every pay back certainly committed fraud. Nobody went to jail. Neither did anyone of the 100,000 or so people who collected the "first time homebuyers tax credit" fraudulently.
johngalt 2y ago
What sort of fraud in 2008 would be similar to just wiring millions of dollars out of the bank to a personal investment/scam? The most egregious stuff in 2008 was mispricing MBSs. Incorrectly pricing risk is pretty far from stealing money from investors/depositors.
- rib3ye 2y ago
  Well, there were the thousands of fraudulent NINJA loans made by individual applicants who lied. But then you have to ask if the institutions doing the application verifications were criminally negligent.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Criminal negligence laws only apply to physical harm, not financial losses.
    - more_corn 2y ago
      Sadly. There are som many negligent acts we need to prosecute.
    - leereeves 2y ago
      I believe a similar concept exists in finance, as part of fiduciary duty. It's called duty of care in that context. "The American Law Institute’s Principles of Corporate Governance defines the duty of care as the duty by which a corporate director or officer is required to perform their functions in good faith; in a manner that they reasonably believe to be in the best interests of the corporation; and with the care that an ordinarily prudent person would reasonably be expected to exercise in a like position and under similar circumstances (negligence standard)." https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duty_of_care https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duty_of_care
      - nradov 2y ago
        Again, that's a civil issue not criminal. In theory some lenders might have been able to file civil lawsuits against some of their own employees to claw back part of their bonuses or whatever, but that would have been pointless.
chollida1 2y ago
> It’s interesting that this one guy gets 24 years over 47 million dollars. Yet, not a single executive, board member, VP or SVP got arrested for the fraud that lead to the 2008 crash. We are talking orders of magnitude more than this and they declined to prosecute even though the evidence was absolutely abundant as we now know. Can you show the abundant evidence that is available, and who committed the crimes you think they did and which specific crimes you think these individuals committed?
- no_wizard 2y ago
  I replied to someone above with a similar question. And that is only the tip of the iceberg of relevant information I have on hand. If more is desired, please ask what you'd like.
  - chollida1 2y ago
    Sure, but I di already ask:) - which specific people do you think committed crimes? - which specific crimes do you think they committed? - what evidence do you have of these crimes linked to these people? - bonus question, given how mad the US was at bankers post 2008 and how hard prosecutors tried to link people to crimes, nothing came out of this, why did prosecutors fail to find any data to charge people?
readthenotes1 2y ago
If I recall correctly, the attorney general at the time (Eric Holder) told his peeps not to bring a case unless it was absolutely 110% rock solid. It was too much bother for them.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  What seemingly happened is they used it to leverage a settlement out of the banks[0] as part of the negotiated settlement that landed in 2013 was the explicit removal of a brief that was to be filed to carry out a lawsuit of this nature. I wish I knew why they decided not to pursue such a rock solid case, but by 2013 it seems they reversed course on being 'hardline' in dealing with the banks. This still doesn't excuse the fact the executives and board weren't held criminally liable, or at the very least all fired and banned from ever working in any part of the financial sector ever again, and stripped of their golden parachutes and money clawed back that they made during the time period. [0]: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/09/jamie-dimon-billion-dollar-secret-jp-morgan https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/09/jamie-dimon-billion-...
yieldcrv 2y ago
the main difference is that Embezzlement doesnt come with the option of a civil settlement by a completely different enforcement agency, and also isnt hard to prove
fortran77 2y ago
> VP or SVP got arrested for the fraud that lead to the 2008 crash. We are talking orders of magnitude more than this and they declined to prosecute even though the evidence was absolutely abundant as we now know. Nor did any of the millions of Americans who lied on mortgage applications, and took out mortgages they couldn't possibly afford to pay back. Nor was anyone ever held liable for income tax on forgiven debt or the imputed income from living rent-free in houses for years until the court foreclosed.
roshankhan28 2y ago
would you say this would be something similar to the FTX crypto scam?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

MattGaiser 2y ago

It’s not clear to me in 2008 that anyone committed fraud to the level required. My understanding was more that things were disclosed deep in the fine print, and nobody really verified anything and didn’t have a legal obligation to do so. Who allegedly lied to the point of it being fraud in 2008?

no_wizard 2y ago
See my comment to a similar question that I answered already a few comments up from this one. If more information is desired, let me know, I have mountains of it, this is just the highlights to show in broad strokes the banks did indeed know they had fraudulent loans and they willingly misrepresented them.
fortran77 2y ago
Well, the people who lied on their mortgage applications to get loans they couldn't possibly every pay back certainly committed fraud. Nobody went to jail. Neither did anyone of the 100,000 or so people who collected the "first time homebuyers tax credit" fraudulently.

johngalt 2y ago

What sort of fraud in 2008 would be similar to just wiring millions of dollars out of the bank to a personal investment/scam? The most egregious stuff in 2008 was mispricing MBSs. Incorrectly pricing risk is pretty far from stealing money from investors/depositors.

rib3ye 2y ago
Well, there were the thousands of fraudulent NINJA loans made by individual applicants who lied. But then you have to ask if the institutions doing the application verifications were criminally negligent.
- nradov 2y ago
  Criminal negligence laws only apply to physical harm, not financial losses.
  - more_corn 2y ago
    Sadly. There are som many negligent acts we need to prosecute.
  - leereeves 2y ago
    I believe a similar concept exists in finance, as part of fiduciary duty. It's called duty of care in that context. "The American Law Institute’s Principles of Corporate Governance defines the duty of care as the duty by which a corporate director or officer is required to perform their functions in good faith; in a manner that they reasonably believe to be in the best interests of the corporation; and with the care that an ordinarily prudent person would reasonably be expected to exercise in a like position and under similar circumstances (negligence standard)." https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duty_of_care https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/duty_of_care
    - nradov 2y ago
      Again, that's a civil issue not criminal. In theory some lenders might have been able to file civil lawsuits against some of their own employees to claw back part of their bonuses or whatever, but that would have been pointless.

chollida1 2y ago

> It’s interesting that this one guy gets 24 years over 47 million dollars. Yet, not a single executive, board member, VP or SVP got arrested for the fraud that lead to the 2008 crash. We are talking orders of magnitude more than this and they declined to prosecute even though the evidence was absolutely abundant as we now know. Can you show the abundant evidence that is available, and who committed the crimes you think they did and which specific crimes you think these individuals committed?

no_wizard 2y ago
I replied to someone above with a similar question. And that is only the tip of the iceberg of relevant information I have on hand. If more is desired, please ask what you'd like.
- chollida1 2y ago
  Sure, but I di already ask:) - which specific people do you think committed crimes? - which specific crimes do you think they committed? - what evidence do you have of these crimes linked to these people? - bonus question, given how mad the US was at bankers post 2008 and how hard prosecutors tried to link people to crimes, nothing came out of this, why did prosecutors fail to find any data to charge people?

readthenotes1 2y ago

If I recall correctly, the attorney general at the time (Eric Holder) told his peeps not to bring a case unless it was absolutely 110% rock solid. It was too much bother for them.

no_wizard 2y ago
What seemingly happened is they used it to leverage a settlement out of the banks[0] as part of the negotiated settlement that landed in 2013 was the explicit removal of a brief that was to be filed to carry out a lawsuit of this nature. I wish I knew why they decided not to pursue such a rock solid case, but by 2013 it seems they reversed course on being 'hardline' in dealing with the banks. This still doesn't excuse the fact the executives and board weren't held criminally liable, or at the very least all fired and banned from ever working in any part of the financial sector ever again, and stripped of their golden parachutes and money clawed back that they made during the time period. [0]: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/09/jamie-dimon-billion-dollar-secret-jp-morgan https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/09/jamie-dimon-billion-...

yieldcrv 2y ago

the main difference is that Embezzlement doesnt come with the option of a civil settlement by a completely different enforcement agency, and also isnt hard to prove

fortran77 2y ago

> VP or SVP got arrested for the fraud that lead to the 2008 crash. We are talking orders of magnitude more than this and they declined to prosecute even though the evidence was absolutely abundant as we now know. Nor did any of the millions of Americans who lied on mortgage applications, and took out mortgages they couldn't possibly afford to pay back. Nor was anyone ever held liable for income tax on forgiven debt or the imputed income from living rent-free in houses for years until the court foreclosed.

roshankhan28 2y ago

would you say this would be something similar to the FTX crypto scam?