10 ms·
Basic Mechanisms In Fire Control Computers (1953) [video]
- teqsun 2y agoThought it was very interesting to see the precursors of modern computers and how they achieved the various mathematical functions mechanically
- andrewstuart2 2y agoAnd fascinating too that, unlike digital computers where operations take clock cycles, calculations in an analog computer are effectively instantaneous.
- bluGill 2y agoBacklash means there is delay in analog computers that is generally worse than in digital. However the calculations you perform on analog computers are generally much simpler and so you don't notice the lag. edit: I should point out that some calculations that are trivial on analog computers and difficult on digital and so analog may have less lag on some specific calculations. However in general it is safe to say digital is faster overall even though in the real world you will find many examples where analog is faster.
- pragma_x 2y agoIt's better than that. As an analog computer, both the inputs and outputs are _continuous_. So it's possible to get down to very small deltas that are only limited by the internal precision of the system itself, and the precision of measuring those inputs and outputs. At the same time, precision is dictated by machining tolerances for the instruments in the calculation chain, as well as any mechanical forces in play at the time. Even the temperature of parts can change the dimensions of parts which can introduce error. And then there's the accumulation of error across a deep enough mechanical "pipeline". What really gets me is how there is this tradeoff between analog and digital computers. Digital systems don't have precision errors from miss-shaped parts, but instead opt for errors in quantization (digitization) instead.
- schiffern 2y agoThe neat part is that it's almost instantaneous, but not quite. How electricity flows through analog circuits and chooses the right path is another fascinating subject. Seeing how it actually works "in action" seems to glimpse some insights into ultra-fast computing paradigms: not just computing with analog circuits, but also structuring computation like circuits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AXv49dDQJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AXv49dDQJw
- pjc50 2y agoNot instantaneous on any scale a digital system would regard as important. You can't turn a shaft very far in a nanosecond, and you are in general limited by the inertia of the mechanical system as well as quantities such as bearing overheating, lubricant viscosity, the maximum force that can be applied through any particular component, and so on.
- shagie 2y agoThe Thomson (also known as Lord Kelvin of degrees K fame) tide predicting machine takes us back to the late 1800s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide-predicting_machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide-predicting_machine One implementation of it was a notable part of WWII: > They came to be regarded as of military strategic importance during World War I, and again during the Second World War, when the US No.2 Tide Predicting Machine, described below, was classified, along with the data that it produced, and used to predict tides for the D-Day Normandy landings and all the island landings in the Pacific War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide-Predicting_Machine_No._2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide-Predicting_Machine_No._2 From Veritasium : The Most Powerful Computers You've Never Heard Of - the tide calculator plays a prominent part of the video. https://youtu.be/IgF3OX8nT0w https://youtu.be/IgF3OX8nT0w (the next video is also in the same topic - Future Computers Will Be Radically Different https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg and that gets into more modern implementations and uses - https://the-analog-thing.org https://the-analog-thing.org is the device shown in the video).
- relwin 2y agoWhat's amazing is some of these fire-control systems using up to 15kW to keep all the motors and mechanicals moving!
- qiqitori 2y agoOn the topic of analog computers, I recently decided to explore the topic a bit and built something similar to "Tennis for Two" (one of the first video games) on a single breadboard using op amps and relays: https://blog.qiqitori.com/2024/08/implementing-tennis-for-two-using-op-amps/ https://blog.qiqitori.com/2024/08/implementing-tennis-for-tw...
- kallistisoft 2y agoI absolutely adore this series of videos! Analog/mechanical computing is a fascinating field that is often ignored. Also the pedagogical style of these videos is fantastic, simple, to the point, with no unnecessary distractions. It's hard to find this level of quality in the current 'click and subscribe' universe! Happy to see this pop on HN :)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pvg 2y agothe current 'click and subscribe' universe! The audience for this film was heavily advertised to, in order to get them to subscribe: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Untitled_%282%29World_War_II_US_Navy_recruiting_poster.png https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Untitled_%282%29World_... And if that didn't work, many were simply coerced into it by the state. You don't need to pester a captive audience to smash the like button.
- Aardwolf 2y agoA similarly interesting video in this pedagogical style is 'Around The Corner - How Differential Steering Works (1937)': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYAw79386WI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYAw79386WI
- pfdietz 2y agoAnother archaic technology is magnetic amplifiers. These were more used in Germany (in the Kriegsmarine and also in the V-2), but got some more play in the US immediately after the war, before being largely supplanted by transistors. The idea here was to use magnetic saturation to modulate the behavior of a transformer, allowing a small control current to modulate larger AC currents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier
- postepowanieadm 2y agoI highly recommend "Between Human and Machine Feedback, Control, and Computing before Cybernetics" by David A. Mindell
- thrdbndndn 2y agoI've seen a few of these old instructional videos. In addition to the content itself, I'm always very amazed by the fact they can produce these videos without computers!
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- 082349872349872 2y agoThe difficulty of editing in the pre-computer days may have helped, in that they probably went to a great deal of effort to fully plan out the content instead of YOLO'ing "we'll fix it in post".
- mrandish 2y agoHaving worked professionally through the evolution video production from the early 80s to the present day, variously as an editor, videographer director and producer, then switching to making digital video production tools (both live and post) as a programmer, product manager, etc it's hard for me to watch anything and not think about how it was made along with pondering the tooling and workflow. So, like you, I watched the film (as it was certainly produced on 16mm film) and was surprised by the quality of the graphics, titles and animation. Even the shooting and editing was remarkably good for what's obviously an industrial-grade training film produced on an assembly line. I was especially taken by the fidelity of the full screen title slides featuring soft-edged drop shadows. When I started out in video, the first place that hired me was a tiny hole-in-the-wall studio that produced corporate and industrial sales, marketing and training videos for mid-sized clients on 3/4 inch U-Matic tape. And they still laid out titles by hand a line at a time with a manual Letraset-type machine. The titles we did in the mid-80s didn't look as nice as what these guys were doing in 1953!
- zer00eyz 2y agoThis is a great primer on one facet of the Navy and "technology". So much of early computing has some tie back to the navy. It isn't an accident that Grace Hopper was an admiral and not a General. Much of Cray's early work is littered with "Navy" (including his transfer from Europe to the Pacific). It's a fascinating bit of WWII and Post war history that is worth exploring.
- _kb 2y agoThat history extends back the other direction too with mechanical tide prediction machines, or even early marine chronometers for navigation - the OGps if you will.
- jameshart 2y agoNavigation and gunnery have always been driving forces for mathematical innovation so there are often naval connections to important discoveries and inventions. But don’t sleep on the importance of land-based artillery and military surveying and cartography as motivation too. Long range naval gunnery with these kinds of mechanical computers to take into account things like course, speed and rolling motion, was all building on earlier static land-based gunnery methods using tables and nomograms derived through complex calculations - some of Babbage’s difference engine work was calculating gunnery tables.
- teachrdan 2y agoThis is the whole conceit behind Neil deGrasse Tyson's book "Accessory to War": "Accessory to War: The Unspoken Alliance Between Astrophysics and the Military is the fifteenth book by American astrophysicist and science communicator Neil deGrasse Tyson which he co-wrote with researcher and writer Avis Lang. It was released on September 11, 2018 by W. W. Norton & Company. The book chronicles war and the use of space as a weapon going as far back as before the Ancient Greeks, and includes examples such as Christopher Columbus' use of his knowledge of a lunar eclipse and the use of satellite intelligence by the United States during the Gulf War. While speaking on the book, Tyson told National Geographic that he regards the collaboration between science and the military as a 'two-way street.'" FWIW Tyson is quite critical of the application of astrophysics research to military ends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_to_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_to_War
- AlexDragusin 2y agoLove the DHARMA Initiative feel of it! Excellent, particularly the differential computing aspect. Thanks for posting this.
- snakeyjake 2y agoThe US Navy's old training materials are fantastic for learning about various technologies. I think their masterpiece is "Basic Hand Tools" a handbook written in plain English that describes the use of practically every hand tool ever invented. "Basic Hand Tools" on the hammer: >Whoever conceived the idea of cracking a nut with a rock unknowingly invented a tool. When a later genius tied a stick to the rock, he invented the first hammer. There have been a lot of improvements since that humble beginning. The modern version "Tools and Their Uses" also covers machine tools but is less fun.
- smlavine 2y agoDo you happen to have a link to the "Basic Hand Tools" version?
- _kb 2y agoNEETS is another to add to the list. A quite literal full stack guide to electronics from the basis of matter up.
- bloopernova 2y ago"Navy Electricity and Electronics Training Series"
- copperx 2y agoI found the "textbook", but is there a video series associated with it?
- cynicalpeace 2y agoThis made me think of engines as computers- the crank shaft connected to the timing belt goes up to the camshafts to instantly calculate the positions of the valves.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- thesuitonym 2y agoLikewise, an automatic transmission is a hydraulic computer.
- bluGill 2y ago50 years ago that was true. Sometime ago though (I don't know when, but I'd guess starting in the 1990s) they changed to electronic computers. Using electronics makes some things simpler and puts the complex parts in standard hardware (a CPU is much more complex but it isn't custom designed for you), or software (easy to change if you get it wrong.
- SoftTalker 2y agoFor the fuel injection and ignition (spark) timing yes, but the camshafts to open and close the valves are still driven by a gear, belt or chain. Even variable valve timing is mostly controled by mechanical or hydraulic means, though I'm guessing some electronics may be involved.
- neurobashing 2y agomy head canon is that in the Dune universe, their response to the Butlerian Jihad was to develop better and better mechanical computers; specifically, via miniaturization, down to the nanometer level. It doesn't quite work for everything (Holtzmann shields are entirely analog?) but it works well enough to map most objects to a viable analog controller made of nanometer-scale analog computers.
- avar 2y agoThe ban on thinking machines in Dune has nothing to do with the mechanics by which those machines work. For all we know (I'm ignoring Brian Herbert's fanfiction here) the predominant type of computing at the time was mechanical. In any case, it wouldn't have mattered.
- pmcf 2y agoIn 1989 I was a data systems tech on a Destroyer going through some overhaul at the shipyard in Pascagoula Mississippi. Moored right next to us was the battleship Wisconsin. Huge relic from WW2 but still going through modernization. A bunch of us that worked on combat systems got invited for a tour of their fire control systems. Wow. Just wow. All mechanical computers calculating fire control solutions for the big 16 inch guns. The guys giving the tour were well beyond the age for regular military retirement. Come to find out, they were all reactivated because practical knowledge of the mechanical computers had since left the navy. That was a very cool day.
- flavius29663 2y agoI remember seeing one of those computers on Wisconsin, but I only saw it after decommission, as a museum piece. Those computers are truly mind boggling, if you're reading this and you're close to Norfolk you should visit battleship Wisconsin.
- ricktdotorg 2y agosame goes for being in SoCal and going to visit the USS Iowa in San Pedro. it also has similar mechanical computers, it's a fantastic day spent clambering around the ship. sometimes they do "stay overnight in the bunks" nights, I can highly recommend it!
- teqsun 2y agoFor anyone along the Northeastern corridor, the USS New Jersey in Camden is another well-preserved Iowa class museum ship.
- mrguyorama 2y agoThe Battleship New Jersey has a good youtube channel where the head curator walks you through some things. https://www.youtube.com/@BattleshipNewJersey https://www.youtube.com/@BattleshipNewJersey They also sell broken parts of the ship that they fix up as souvenirs, like the entire deck's worth of wooden planking, and for $1000 you can take a tour where the mildly charismatic head curator takes you into the smallest and hardest to reach parts of the ship! Or fire a 5 inch gun, you know, if that's more your speed.
- PKop 2y ago"Obviously, computer accuracy depends on the quality of the information it receives". So true.
- ape4 2y agoLow quality received, poor accuracy out.
- gausswho 2y agoMade me look up the origin of 'garbage in garbage out. Interesting that GIGO descends from LIFO and FIFO.
- lukan 2y agoWhy not do some math to fix it? https://xkcd.com/2494/ https://xkcd.com/2494/
- Mordisquitos 2y agoThat made me think of a quote from Charles Babbage, arguably the inventor of the mechanical computer. I wonder if it was added intentionally as a reference: > On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" In one case a member of the Upper, and in the other a member of the Lower, House put this question. I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. – Charles Babbage in Passages from the Life of a Philosopher (1864)
- andrei-akopian 2y agoModern educational videos/films feel lower quality (in terms of content) even with all the modern tech at their disposal. Better technology doesn't seem to improve education. The quality of the content is 99% the skill of the teacher.
- meroes 2y agoSometimes I feel like if we had a video like this for every concept we’d be in Star Trek utopia by now.
- g8oz 2y agoDomain experts and instructional designers working together, in close proximity, in both time and space, produce the best educational content in my opinion. Without iteration and feedback loops between these groups we end up with the shallow content that is so prevalent in the e-learning industry.
- mncharity 2y ago> Domain experts and instructional designers working together, in close proximity I dream of an online community encompassing science researchers, instructional designers and education researchers, software developers, and teachers. So "my students are struggling with" -> "the underlying idea is" -> "maybe represent that as" -> "here's a strawman web interactive" -> "tried it this afternoon, mostly worked, except for" in tight iterative churns.
- hnpolicestate 2y agoAgreed. Check out all the popular historical war documentaries on YouTube. They are labeled "simplified, learn in 10 minutes etc", also use childlike cartoons. Never any interviews with real world experts. It's almost like the concept of making technology easy enough for a child to use has spread to other areas.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- duxup 2y agoThere used to be a real art to make informational videos like this. Here is one on punchard machines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etu-cH-nkIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etu-cH-nkIA Now a days we just deploy tech all YOLO style.
- poikroequ 2y agoGreat video! I love the simple straightforward presentation, it explains the concepts so well. The many applications of cams continue to impresses me. The fundamentals of mechanical computers go back much further, well into the 1800s and possibly even earlier. Much of it has its roots in clockwork.
- mrandish 2y ago> it explains the concepts so well. Indeed. Watching the video I found the practical and visual illustration of math concepts when implemented in mechanical gears to feel intuitive in a way I never felt from chalkboard math instruction. As a person who's always struggled with traditional algebra and up math education, seeing it presented in this physical way really felt fundamentally more accessible to me. Like I strangely felt far more 'connected' to concepts in a way I never have before. Has anyone ever tried to teach algebra and higher level math concepts this way? I suspect if back in high school and college, math classes had geared machines I could touch and turn a crank on to see the "math work", maybe my life would have been different. I basically dropped out of college due to falling behind in high school on algebra fundamentals and never being able to catch up in college. When I found I loved computers in the college's BASIC 101 class, yet found any access to computers beyond that class requiring a transfer to the math dept (this being the early 80s), and not being able to pass the prereq classes for that transfer, I dropped out. Strangely, I immediately bought an 8-bit computer with 4K of RAM and became an entirely self-taught programmer (which ended up working out very well for me in the end), but what might have been...
- tingletech 2y agoWhen my great grandfather was drafted in WWI from the chemistry department at Berkeley to Annapolis, they put him on a ship as an ensign doing targeting.
- varenc 2y agoCan anyone find parts 2-4? This seems to just be part of 1!
- mike_hearn 2y agoHere you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_xhMykK5Hw&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_xhMykK5Hw&t=1s
- flohofwoe 2y agoTo get a direct feel of how it is working with such a 'computer': the UBOAT game on Steam (spiritual successor to the Silent Hunter games) has somewhat recently added a Torpedo Data Computer as used on German Type VII submarines: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/494840/view/3712713813599539942 https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/494840/view/37127138... The user interface is surprisingly intuitive even by today's UX standards.
- foofoo4u 2y agoI wish I grew up with educational videos like these. Simple, to the point, foundational videos that teach complicated topics from building blocks. I love the practical demonstrations. If I saw these as a child, I would have certainly considered majoring in engineering.
- johnohara 2y agoCan't have a military training film or newsreel without march cadence intro music. It inherently tells you to "sit still, pay attention, and listen." This means you! Bagpipes are the same thing. Nowadays, nothing seems official unless it starts or ends with bagpipes.
- selim3455 2y ago[flagged]
- maxglute 2y agoThe videos on WW2 bomber gun system and bombing computer are also very fun. Too lazy to find specific videos, but this entire channel is A+ https://www.youtube.com/@WWIIUSBombers/search?query=computer https://www.youtube.com/@WWIIUSBombers/search?query=computer
- 7373737373 2y agoThis one about the battleship New Jersey as well: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kDOFBGIf6Uo https://youtube.com/watch?v=kDOFBGIf6Uo, which has a more modern version of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_I_Fire_Control_Computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_I_Fire_Control_Computer
- dang 2y agoRelated: Mechanical Computer – Basic Mechanisms in Fire Control Computers (1953) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29471331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29471331 - Dec 2021 (12 comments) Basic Mechanisms In Fire Control Computers (1953) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7831923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7831923 - June 2014 (6 comments)
- turtledragonfly 2y agoI especially like the section on differential gears, demonstrating their use as computing units: (timestamped link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwf5mAlI7Ug&t=771s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwf5mAlI7Ug&t=771s
- geogod42 2y agosomeone should build a very precise "lut" with mems and this tech. would be pretty hard tho
- mftrhu 2y agoPeople might also be interested in this 1944's Bureau of Ordnance's 433-pages pamphlet: Basic Fire Control Mechanisms <https://maritime.org/doc/op1140/index.php https://maritime.org/doc/op1140/index.php> (PDF).
- xhrpost 2y agoThere's a copyright notice at the start that says this film is owned by Periscope films. If this video was actually created by the US government, then it should be in the public domain.
- 7373737373 2y agoLonger version of the video without the annoying watermark and timestamp https://youtube.com/watch?v=s1i-dnAH9Y4 https://youtube.com/watch?v=s1i-dnAH9Y4