4 ms·

New Win11 insider build blocks install on older hardware, prevents TPM bypass

easton 2y ago
Why does LTSC not have the same requirement? I could understand the IoT builds, but LTSC is made for user workstations I thought?
- g_p 2y ago
  The Microsoft view is that LTSC is for "single purpose devices", more akin to appliances or embedded systems (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/ltsc/overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/ltsc/ove...) Those tend to be shipped on some validated hardware that will take years to validate, then eventually gets approved for use, and won't be replaced for many years. My guess is in many of these use cases (industrial etc) you won't see TPMs present or used, because they value availability and uptime over all else (i.e. confidentiality and integrity) - you won't be encrypting the filesystem or doing any kind of TPM checks on an industrial control system, as the operational technology mindset is to put availability above all else, and a TPM or encryption issue would compromise availability. So not really for workstations - they'd probably say you should use enterprise and just accept constant changes and new features being pushed down to users causing support hassle. They don't officially consider LTSC to be something used by regular users for daily productivity though.
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  Only one specific version of LTSC doesn't have them.
add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
In the old days I remember various custom (unofficial) builds of Windows XP etc. that stripped it down to basics. And then that scene went away as storage and cpu became plentiful and it was simpler to disable various annoyances through the official means. But I hope that scene gets revived if/when they get rid of local accounts altogether, and this would be another thing that would make custom builds attractive again.
- jimmaswell 2y ago
  Custom builds still are popular to some extent, such as the options in Rufus to disable various things.
  - add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
    Maybe I'm out of the loop. Allowing local accounts after a hypothetical point where it's forced to be online seems outside the scope of that project. But I hope there will be some projects keeping local Windows going after that point.
ChocolateGod 2y ago
I still can't enable the TPM on my AMD Zen 3 PC without getting random hitches (I've applied all firmware updates and tried switching to a hardware TPM), guess back to Windows 10 I go.
- 3np 2y ago
  Consider giving desktop Linux a go. Linux Mint and Fedora Workstation are good starters these days. Windows is a sinking ship.
  - ChocolateGod 2y ago
    I use NixOS as my main driver on the same system (on a separate NVME drive) but I use Windows for gaming.
  - ramenbytes 2y ago
    > Windows is a sinking ship. I got a kick out of Windows' responses to me installing Chrome on some machines at work. First, search (good) Bing for Chrome. Get a sponsored result from MS saying something like "Oh, really, no reason to install that, Edge is x, y, z marketing bs, you should just use it instead." Second, go to Chrome download page. Windows then pops up a notification bubble or something in the top right again extolling Edge, finishing with "and it's Microsoft Trusted!" Thanks for the laughs MS.
    - cchance 2y ago
      I mean... edge is chrome today lol, its just branded as MS.
      - steelbrain 2y ago
        I gave edge another shot last year, because it's just chrome right? Sure. That's what it started out as. Until MS middle-managers trying to get promotions added enough shit to onboarding that it repelled me back to Chrome
  - 2y ago
a2128 2y ago
If Microsoft cares about the environment and becoming carbon-negative by 2030, why the seemingly arbitrary hardware restrictions that are pushing consumers to replace hardware that's still modest today?
- whatevaa 2y ago
  They don't care, simple as that.
- add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
  Literally no one is going to throw away a working computer running Windows 10. There are still a lot of people running Windows 7. This is a nonsensical talking point.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    A lot of people don't want to go without security patches. It's barely over a year until EOL for 10.
    - add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
      The vast majority of people still running Windows 10 won't even know what an EOL date is or why they should care. Businesses or anyone else who really cares can pay for the security fixes that will continue beyond 2025.
      - serf 2y ago
        >The vast majority of people still running Windows 10 won't even know what an EOL date is or why they should care Microsoft has been doing a lot in recent years to make people care, including (but not limited to) pop-ups near EOL that throw a scare into people.[0] [0]: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/you-received-a-notification-your-windows-7-pc-is-out-of-support-3278599f-9613-5cc1-e0ee-4f81f623adcf https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/you-received-a-not...
mrandish 2y ago
I've been using Windows daily since 3.1 and, while there are been some digressions at various points over the years, MSFT always eventually managed to course correct and get things back on track. But I gave up on Windows 11 a few months ago and am slowly migrating all my Win11 systems back to Win10. I gave up because it's been over three years during which MSFT has repeatedly demonstrated the Windows business is being operated with fundamentally different priorities in the Win11 era than it ever has been. The myriad things which have been removed from Win11 and the new things which are annoying on a daily basis are not regressions. They're not going to be fixed because these new priorities are now part of MSFT's core strategy for the Windows business. They have prioritized incessantly promoting adjacent subscription businesses and de-prioritized making Windows a complete, feature-rich, functional and streamlined tool for individual power users. For the past 30 years, Windows has generally gotten better for users like me (with a few detours, which were corrected). It's not that MSFT always did everything the way I'd prefer but, even when we disagreed on implementation, we remained largely in sync on the overall goals. Since Win11, it's become clear that Microsoft's interests are no longer mostly aligned with my own interests as an individual power user.
- stonethrowaway 2y ago
  I’ve been reading comments like these since Windows ME. Vista was supposed to doom Microsoft because XP was the best. I don’t want to sound dismissive, but it’s a boring drop in the bucket. Windows will go on and get better.
  - serf 2y ago
    >Windows will go on undoubtedly >...and get better well that would buck the entire constant downward UX trend that has happened ever since data exfiltration became the actual revenue stream for Microsoft. I get the "I hate new windows version Y" statements are getting old, i've been reading them for at least as long -- but it doesn't make the points that they extrapolate upon wrong. Windows has long been trending 'anti-user' , and has recently met a threshold that has thrown a lot of long-time users off the scent -- especially since other OSs have never been better/compatible/capable.
  - 2y ago
Habgdnv 2y ago
I am having problems switching to Linux because of my relatives and ignorant companies. One hard example is that all kids in my daughter school play roblox games, and roblox go to great extent to make sure you're on native windows without emulator or VM or anything. Baremetal windows only. I do not want to force my kid to be the weird outsider who don't play roblox with friends because of a crazy IT father. Because of my work I offc use enterprise editions and have AD at home with GPOs so no forced reboots and no online accounts and not ads etc, but if things start to get uglier my escape plan is to install windows server. As they say - It's not much but its dishonest work.
- fragmede 2y ago
  FWIW, Roblox, specifically, will run on a Chromebook, which is a Linux, though a non-traditional one, and may or may not be better for some people compared than to have a home AD setup.
- antman 2y ago
  My kid had to quit Roblox for that patch that forbid linux. Took him weeks debugging and although failing it was still a learning experience
Scharkenberg 2y ago
FYI this is a Windows vNext build and the current placeholder name for its development branch is XY30H1. It is not launching anytime soon.

Why does LTSC not have the same requirement? I could understand the IoT builds, but LTSC is made for user workstations I thought?

g_p 2y ago
The Microsoft view is that LTSC is for "single purpose devices", more akin to appliances or embedded systems (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/ltsc/overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/ltsc/ove...) Those tend to be shipped on some validated hardware that will take years to validate, then eventually gets approved for use, and won't be replaced for many years. My guess is in many of these use cases (industrial etc) you won't see TPMs present or used, because they value availability and uptime over all else (i.e. confidentiality and integrity) - you won't be encrypting the filesystem or doing any kind of TPM checks on an industrial control system, as the operational technology mindset is to put availability above all else, and a TPM or encryption issue would compromise availability. So not really for workstations - they'd probably say you should use enterprise and just accept constant changes and new features being pushed down to users causing support hassle. They don't officially consider LTSC to be something used by regular users for daily productivity though.
TiredOfLife 2y ago
Only one specific version of LTSC doesn't have them.

add-sub-mul-div 2y ago

In the old days I remember various custom (unofficial) builds of Windows XP etc. that stripped it down to basics. And then that scene went away as storage and cpu became plentiful and it was simpler to disable various annoyances through the official means. But I hope that scene gets revived if/when they get rid of local accounts altogether, and this would be another thing that would make custom builds attractive again.

jimmaswell 2y ago
Custom builds still are popular to some extent, such as the options in Rufus to disable various things.
- add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
  Maybe I'm out of the loop. Allowing local accounts after a hypothetical point where it's forced to be online seems outside the scope of that project. But I hope there will be some projects keeping local Windows going after that point.

ChocolateGod 2y ago

I still can't enable the TPM on my AMD Zen 3 PC without getting random hitches (I've applied all firmware updates and tried switching to a hardware TPM), guess back to Windows 10 I go.

3np 2y ago
Consider giving desktop Linux a go. Linux Mint and Fedora Workstation are good starters these days. Windows is a sinking ship.
- ChocolateGod 2y ago
  I use NixOS as my main driver on the same system (on a separate NVME drive) but I use Windows for gaming.
- ramenbytes 2y ago
  > Windows is a sinking ship. I got a kick out of Windows' responses to me installing Chrome on some machines at work. First, search (good) Bing for Chrome. Get a sponsored result from MS saying something like "Oh, really, no reason to install that, Edge is x, y, z marketing bs, you should just use it instead." Second, go to Chrome download page. Windows then pops up a notification bubble or something in the top right again extolling Edge, finishing with "and it's Microsoft Trusted!" Thanks for the laughs MS.
  - cchance 2y ago
    I mean... edge is chrome today lol, its just branded as MS.
    - steelbrain 2y ago
      I gave edge another shot last year, because it's just chrome right? Sure. That's what it started out as. Until MS middle-managers trying to get promotions added enough shit to onboarding that it repelled me back to Chrome
- 2y ago

a2128 2y ago

If Microsoft cares about the environment and becoming carbon-negative by 2030, why the seemingly arbitrary hardware restrictions that are pushing consumers to replace hardware that's still modest today?

whatevaa 2y ago
They don't care, simple as that.
add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
Literally no one is going to throw away a working computer running Windows 10. There are still a lot of people running Windows 7. This is a nonsensical talking point.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  A lot of people don't want to go without security patches. It's barely over a year until EOL for 10.
  - add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
    The vast majority of people still running Windows 10 won't even know what an EOL date is or why they should care. Businesses or anyone else who really cares can pay for the security fixes that will continue beyond 2025.
    - serf 2y ago
      >The vast majority of people still running Windows 10 won't even know what an EOL date is or why they should care Microsoft has been doing a lot in recent years to make people care, including (but not limited to) pop-ups near EOL that throw a scare into people.[0] [0]: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/you-received-a-notification-your-windows-7-pc-is-out-of-support-3278599f-9613-5cc1-e0ee-4f81f623adcf https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/you-received-a-not...

mrandish 2y ago

I've been using Windows daily since 3.1 and, while there are been some digressions at various points over the years, MSFT always eventually managed to course correct and get things back on track. But I gave up on Windows 11 a few months ago and am slowly migrating all my Win11 systems back to Win10. I gave up because it's been over three years during which MSFT has repeatedly demonstrated the Windows business is being operated with fundamentally different priorities in the Win11 era than it ever has been. The myriad things which have been removed from Win11 and the new things which are annoying on a daily basis are not regressions. They're not going to be fixed because these new priorities are now part of MSFT's core strategy for the Windows business. They have prioritized incessantly promoting adjacent subscription businesses and de-prioritized making Windows a complete, feature-rich, functional and streamlined tool for individual power users. For the past 30 years, Windows has generally gotten better for users like me (with a few detours, which were corrected). It's not that MSFT always did everything the way I'd prefer but, even when we disagreed on implementation, we remained largely in sync on the overall goals. Since Win11, it's become clear that Microsoft's interests are no longer mostly aligned with my own interests as an individual power user.

stonethrowaway 2y ago
I’ve been reading comments like these since Windows ME. Vista was supposed to doom Microsoft because XP was the best. I don’t want to sound dismissive, but it’s a boring drop in the bucket. Windows will go on and get better.
- serf 2y ago
  >Windows will go on undoubtedly >...and get better well that would buck the entire constant downward UX trend that has happened ever since data exfiltration became the actual revenue stream for Microsoft. I get the "I hate new windows version Y" statements are getting old, i've been reading them for at least as long -- but it doesn't make the points that they extrapolate upon wrong. Windows has long been trending 'anti-user' , and has recently met a threshold that has thrown a lot of long-time users off the scent -- especially since other OSs have never been better/compatible/capable.
- 2y ago

Habgdnv 2y ago

I am having problems switching to Linux because of my relatives and ignorant companies. One hard example is that all kids in my daughter school play roblox games, and roblox go to great extent to make sure you're on native windows without emulator or VM or anything. Baremetal windows only. I do not want to force my kid to be the weird outsider who don't play roblox with friends because of a crazy IT father. Because of my work I offc use enterprise editions and have AD at home with GPOs so no forced reboots and no online accounts and not ads etc, but if things start to get uglier my escape plan is to install windows server. As they say - It's not much but its dishonest work.

fragmede 2y ago
FWIW, Roblox, specifically, will run on a Chromebook, which is a Linux, though a non-traditional one, and may or may not be better for some people compared than to have a home AD setup.
antman 2y ago
My kid had to quit Roblox for that patch that forbid linux. Took him weeks debugging and although failing it was still a learning experience

Scharkenberg 2y ago

FYI this is a Windows vNext build and the current placeholder name for its development branch is XY30H1. It is not launching anytime soon.