15 ms·
Samsung to Mass-Produce Solid-State Batteries for 'Super Premium' EVs
- cubefox 2y agoThe title of this should be the original one from the website: "Samsung to Mass-Produce Solid-State Batteries for 'Super Premium' EVs by 2027"
- avidphantasm 2y agoCan we just make regular-ass EVs that people can afford?
- borski 2y agoYes, eventually. They're expensive to manufacture for now, because the tech is relatively new (as compared to ICE cars). Price will come down over time.
- cubefox 2y agoNew? Lithium-ion batteries are almost 50 years old, the electric motor close to 200 years. > German engineer Andreas Flocken built the first real electric car in 1888. Electric trains were also used to transport coal out of mines, as their motors did not use up precious oxygen. Before the pre-eminence of internal combustion engines, electric automobiles also held many speed and distance records. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicl...
- borski 2y agoI’m not suggesting we just recently invented the motor or Li-Ion battery. Modern EVs are costlier to manufacture than modern ICE cars. This is sort of indisputable; the reason for this is because of economies of scale. We know how to manufacture and build ICE cars at scale / cheap. We are still learning how to do that for EVs.
- cubefox 2y agoI don't think we are learning that for electric cars, since those are based on very old technology that is not very complicated. Indeed, electric motors are far simpler than combustion motors, and lithium-ion batteries have been produced in large quantities for a while. As far as I know, most other car components don't depend on the type of motor.
- borski 2y agoThat is an extremely high-level statement that isn't worth making. Sure, Li-Ion batteries are generally pretty simple, and electric motors as an idea are simple. Making them work, at scale, and compete (or beat) ICE motors, while also managing to bring price down? Yeah, that takes decades of research. We've know about rubber for a really long time. It still took us many decades to make a good tire.
- tomashubelbauer 2y agoI wish someone made an EV with LFP batteries and as little software as possible, certainly no displays or a companion mobile app. Let me put an AliExpress parking camera in if I want one. Something that I can afford to own and maintain myself, without being dependent on repair shops with specialized tools or knowledge, or worse, the manufacturer, for service. Throw in a service manual with full schematics and I'll be elated.
- kube-system 2y agoReverse cameras are a legal requirement in the US and some other places
- thfuran 2y agoBut what are the requirements on the display? Can you get away with one LED for a single pixel? That'd really let you cheap out on the camera too.
- kube-system 2y agoNo, the regulations do not specify technical specifications, they specify requirements in terms of actual visibility. 49 CFR 571.111 S14. specifies a test that the image must pass, and that would not pass: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.111#p-571.111(S14 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.1....)
- avidphantasm 2y agoYeah, I want a modern EV that is as simple and easy to work on as a VW Bug. Can Framework make a car?
- natch 2y agoModel 3 is pretty simple. You can literally hang a cloth over the screen covering it and still do pretty much everything, most of the time, if the screen bothers you. The car has a few physical hardware buttons that do what you need.
- ac29 2y agoYou can get a 2-3 year old Bolt or Leaf for well under $20k (under 15, even). Sadly, both are no longer in production (though the Leaf is still on sale from the final production run).
- natch 2y agoOr Model 3 for $25k or Model Y for $30k.
- AtlasBarfed 2y agoThis is the sodium ion battery, already scaling up mass production by CATL. The one they claim should enable a 200-300 mile city car that is fundamentally cheaper than an ICE vehicle. The materials costs are something like half of an LFP battery, and LFP batteries should be cheaper than ICEs too at scale, especially with the new generation of 200-225 wh/kg LFP batteries. The reason why they aren't available is that government, especially the US, are still being unbelievably short sighted about proactive investment in EV switchover. There should be hundreds of billions of dollars being invested to switch over to PHEVs and EVs in all consumer and a great deal of commercial transportation every year. Heck, we should have had PHEVs for all new vehicles mandated 10 years after the Prius was released in 1997, it's just that there was an oilman in the oval office. But Obama wasn't very proactive either.
- Qwertious 2y agoThere should be hundreds of billions of dollars being invested into building out rail, and phasing down cars in every major city. Footpaths and bike lanes cost 1/100th as much as roads for cars, investing in EVs is shortsighted. EVs are better than ICE cars (mostly - I'm not sold on battery trucks and EV utility vehicles), but kerosene lamps are better than whale-oil lamps and yet both should be replaced by light bulbs as broadly and quickly as possible. Sodium batteries are cool as heck, I'd love to see them in UPSes.
- AtlasBarfed 2y agoRail simply takes too long and too much money to lay down. But e-bikes that I agree with you. Our car centric infrastructure basically makes an e-bike. Still pretty dangerous. With minimal infrastructure investment, certainly a thousandth of what would be necessary for a rail line, I said he could make a kick- ass ebike infrastructure completely separated from dangerous cars. Old rail lines are actually really good for this. They're already separated from car infrastructure. But even if you dug tunnels or elevated, a bike path still would be a lot cheaper
- natch 2y ago$251/month is unaffordable? Tesla Model 3. How about $95/month? Nissan Leaf.
- csours 2y ago> 600Mi/1000KM range, 9min charging We're still doing this? Capacity by weight and volume, and efficiency per distance are much more meaningful. Charging is mostly a function of input voltage.
- LtdJorge 2y agoYeah, there's also the: charging everytime in the 9m mode, how long does it last? Or, how much energy do you have to put in? Because the charging efficiency and lifespan change when the input voltage changes.
- SkyPuncher 2y agoThe people with the money to buy these EVs probably don’t care as much. They own or lease them for 2 or 3 years then refresh.
- Loic 2y agoIn Germany where more than 70% of the new vehicles are bought/leased by companies over 24/36 months, you are totally right. They do not care as longevity of the battery is priced in the lease.
- Someone 2y agoI don’t follow that logic. If you’re in charge of car lease contracts at a company, wouldn’t the lease price be one of the major factors in deciding whether an offer is good/in whether your boss is happy about you? On the contrary, I would think individual leasers would be more likely to make the impulse choice of “greater range, and ‘only’ costs $X a month more” than companies, who often lease dozens or more cars.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y agoThe price would be a major factor. The state in which the battery will be in at the end of those 3 years would be a complete non-factor (because at that point it's not your problem anymore). So someone who leases like this won't need to think/worry about battery longevity, whereas someone buying will be hesitant to buy a vehicle unless they are reasonably sure that the battery will last a long time. Of course, battery degradation would likely have some influence on the lease price, but I doubt it will be a major factor.
- heraldgeezer 2y ago[flagged]
- dotancohen 2y agoJapan was far more the colonizer than the colonized. That said, Samsung is Korean, and they've been colonized for significant parts of their entire history it seems.
- heraldgeezer 2y agoYes pre-WW2 yes. After WW2 Japan was a USA puppet for a while. But they don't want to jihad USA like Iran despite being subjected to worse. Why?
- rhodo 2y ago[flagged]
- heraldgeezer 2y ago[flagged]
- hollerith 2y ago[flagged]
- heraldgeezer 2y agoYes. I mean their industrial capabilities. :) You see? You understand?
- dotancohen 2y ago> Samsung's latest solid-state battery technology will power up premium EVs first, giving them up to 621 miles of range. Whenever I see text like this, my opinion of the editors, and thus the entire publication, immediately plummets. Did they think that 1000 KM was an accurate figure to be converted literally to three significant digits? Do they even understand the field that they are covering? Was it a machine conversion? What else should I not trust in their publication?
- unglaublich 2y agoWhat's the alternative? Taking the liberty to round it up or down? Both could lead them to trouble. The best would be to mention the stated number with conversion in parenthesis.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- acdha 2y agoI think the latter: 1,000km (621mi) makes it immediately understandable that it’s not 3 digits of precision.
- p51-remorse 2y ago“1,000km (about 600-700 miles)” would feel better.
- Daneel_ 2y ago“Several hundred miles” perhaps?
- p51-remorse 2y agoNah, that brings the 200-400mi range to my mind, far outside of the 750-1250km range that I intuit is implied by single-significant-digit “1000km” in this context.
- torginus 2y agoI just don't get why don't they put it in consumer electronics first. You need big volume for supplying EVs, and having a $1000/kWh pricetag would be prohibitive for even premium EVs as it would cost $100k for a 100kWh battery alone, but would be totally OK for an $1000 laptop, as it would cost $100 for a 100Wh battery.
- maximus-decimus 2y agoSince they care more about reducing laptop thickness by 1mm that adding battery, I just don't see laptop manufacturers be interested in this. Even if they did, they would just make the laptops even thinner instead of increasing capacity. Apple just won't be satisfied until you can use your ipad as a kitchen knife.
- teaearlgraycold 2y agoApple did just increase the thickness of the MBP with the redesign a couple of years ago.
- maximus-decimus 2y agoRumors are the next will be the thinnest ever though : https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1di6xrg/mark_gurman_claims_new_macbook_pros_will_be_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1di6xrg/mark_gurm...
- solardev 2y agoThey better leave my HDMI and USB-C ports alone!
- datavirtue 2y agoWhy do you need those "old" boomer ports?
- 2y ago
- nikanj 2y agoComing to a car dealership near you in 2177. Battery breakthroughs have been happening bi-weekly for decades
- Maken 2y agoBatteries are not like fusion energy, we have actually seen continuous improvements in the last 40 years.
- cogman10 2y agoThey hit way sooner than you think. The current best in class battery cells are a hybrid of these breakthroughs. Companies just don't advertise what's going into the special sauce for obvious reasons. If you look at a chart if battery capacity density, it's been pretty much exponentially growing.
- illiac786 2y agoDo you have such a chart handy? The last one I checked showed a linear 10% / year increase, something like that...
- chopin 2y agoA 10% increase per year is exponential.
- illiac786 2y agoyes, ok, but it’s far from e. Let’s say “exponential” is a shitty term, it can mean very different things. But 10%/y is still a doubling within 8 years, so maybe not so bad – if my memory is correct. [edit] see other comment, it is indeed very much linear, not exponential at all.
- _visgean 2y agoThere is a chart here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Advances-in-energy-density-of-selected-battery-types-by-year_fig2_294580055 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Advances-in-energy-densi... I am a bit confused by the units but it seems to be growing, tho the data cuts off at 2005. Another chart is here: https://physicsworld.com/a/lithium-ion-batteries-break-energy-density-record/ https://physicsworld.com/a/lithium-ion-batteries-break-energ..., still does not seem exponential, looks kind of of linear to me.
- fred_is_fred 2y agoI can’t ever seem to find it, but does someone have that checklist of the “oh you’ve invented a great new battery, here are the issues?” This one will probably either be toxic, explosive, expensive, fragile…
- cogman10 2y agoExpensive is main problem with these things and that's because cracking solid state for mass production has proven to be really tricky. Otherwise, these things are pretty near ideal. Higher cycle life and power density with pretty much the same materials as standard lipo cells.
- xnx 2y agoNew battery technology checklist: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26633670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26633670
- akira2501 2y ago"The entropy conditions of the Universe itself are against your entire endeavor. Good luck."
- AtlasBarfed 2y agoLeaves out: - time to recharge - materials industrial scaling (eliminates/reduces nickel and/or cobalt and/or lithium) - can be scaled up to a large battery (so many solid state batteries are these small demo cells, and an action car-worthy one that is 100x bigger never materializes - cooling requirements/support equipment reduce overall pack density (LFP and I think sodium ion do not require cooling systems, which substantially closes the battery density at pack level with nickel/cobalt chemistries
- datadeft 2y ago>> Perhaps unsurprisingly, the batteries won't be cheap Could we get a price comparison per driven distance? Without it these numbers look good but I would be interested in the price too
- torginus 2y ago[flagged]
- LightBug1 2y agoBye bye, Tesla ... remember when they were at the forefront of battery technology? Actually, I don't either ...
- Maken 2y agoDo you mean when they were licensing Panasonic technology?
- kccqzy 2y agoThey were never at the forefront of battery technology. Their project meant to leapfrog everyone else, the 4680 cell, had not delivered. To date they still hadn't achieved the main technical challenge of dry electrode production. Even if they did achieve it today, it would already be too late.
- nabla9 2y agoTesla has always used lithium-ion battery cells tech from Panasonic.
- encom 2y agoCharging speed is too overrated as a metric, in my opinion. For the overwhelming majority of people, you're almost never driving more per day than the capacity of your battery. And even on an 11 kW home charger, you're easily back up to 100% during the night, especially since you're never starting from 0% or even close to it. Even my Nissan Leaf which has notoriously slow AC charging (being single phase), the max 6,7 kW charging is very rarely a concern for me.
- astronads 2y agoA ton of people live in flats, apartments, condos and other shared housing that do not provide home charging capabilities. Just because it’s not a big deal for you and your situation doesn’t mean it’s the same for everyone else.
- kayodelycaon 2y agoAnd people who rent a house and can’t install the necessary equipment.
- cogman10 2y agoI agree,and this is why I really wish the EV charger rollout focused on L2 chargers rather than L3. Incentivizing workplaces, grocery stores, malls, and apartment complexes to install slow chargers would make a huge impact on feasibility. All for a lot less money than it takes to install L3 chargers.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y agoWouldn't grocery stores want bigger chargers, so someone with an apartment can combine a grocery run that takes maybe 30 minutes inside the store with fully charging their car for the next few days?
- cogman10 2y agoWith an L2 charger it doesn't take days to fully charge. It is more like 8 hours when going from 0 to 100. But that's not necessary. You just need to recover enough charge to cover daily driving. In 30 minutes that can equate to adding 20 miles of range. With EVs you are rarely trying to charge from 0 to 100. A slow charge is sufficient and preferable for battery health.
- greenavocado 2y agoThis information is worthless for electric vehicle owners who charge mostly or exclusively at home. A Tesla Model Y battery pack is 75 kWh and the highest rated connection within the typical American home with 200 amp 120/240 volt split-phase service is 50 amps over both phases: 12,000 watts. 75 kWh / 12 kW = 6.25 hours assuming the battery can be hit with maximum wattage continuously throughout its charge cycle (this is unhealthy). To charge the Tesla Model Y 75 kWh battery pack in nine minutes the 240 volt cable would need to carry 2083 amps. This is hilariously far beyond the capacity of a 50-amp rated wire. 6 AWG copper wire which is rated for 50 amps has an 0.000395 ohms per meter (at 20°C). Assuming a ten meter length of wire, the resistance is 0.00395 ohms. Power dissipation in the wire P = I^2 * R. 2083^2 * 0.00395 ohms = 17,166 watts. Temperature rise in the wire delta T = P / (A * k) where P = 17,666 watts, A = pi * 0.00411m * 10m. Assuming PVC insulation whose thermal conductivity is k = 0.19 W/m·K. Delta T is approx 700,615 degrees K. The surface temperature of the Sun is approximately 5773 K, so our wire would get about 121 times hotter than the surface of the sun if it did not instantly explode.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoIt’s for fast DC charging at 350kw+. Home charging is solved, but there is still travel range anxiety to squeeze out of the human, as well as use cases with high utilization and turnaround need (taxi, livery, law enforcement). 9 minutes to charge and a 20 year service life is awfully close to “you have no excuse this is suboptimal compared to liquid fuel refueling.” High level, EVs have almost killed combustion vehicles, we’re almost there [1] [2]. Batteries will only improve over time as EV production scales up. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41191790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41191790 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207048
- greenavocado 2y agoHome charging is "solved" as in my car will always need to be charged all day or all night at best and if you want a truck that tows anything - such as for landscaping - forget it.
- 2y ago
- lolwhatitis 2y agoPresuming an 80 kWh battery and 80% efficiency: 80 kWh / 0.8 = 100 kWh To charge in nine minutes: 100 kWh * 60 min/hr / 9 min = 667 kW A 400 V DC setup is common for this sort of application, so: 667 kW / 400 V = 1667 A How physically large do the cables and related apparatus need to be in order to deliver this sort of current? What sort of training and personal protective equipment will people need in order to plug and unplug these cables? (Hint: Arc flashes are no joke!) What sort of service would you need to order from the electric company to be able to power just one of these installations?
- deepsun 2y agoArc flashed are no problem I think, because these cables don't unleash the whole power before everything is connected and protocol negotiation finished. But agree with the rest. Regardless of voltage and current, you still need half-megawatt delivery somehow.
- foxyv 2y agoI think the Hyundai Ioniq 5 uses an 800 volt battery. So you can get half a megawatt at 625 amps. Although most new fast chargers are about 350kw (Usually charging around 230kw on average) right now so you are only pulling about 435 amps.
- jve 2y agoWhy you limit yourself to 400V? Today 250kW chargers are available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger so we need 2.7 times of that. > The voltage range was increased to 1000 V and it supports up to 615 A (charging cable) / 1000 A (charging pole) for power delivery.[14][15] However, they are currently software limited to 250 kW.[12][16] v4 charger already features thermally conductive liquid to dissipate heat. Maybe one could get rid of cables and car could park near charger and some serious metal rods could automatically connect somewhere under the car. Anyways, that 1000Vx615A already supports 615kW so very close as far as we consider cables/connectors.
- Retric 2y ago
- haunter 2y agoSamsung has such a low quality crap home appliances that I have 0 hope about this being actually good by the time we peasants get it.
- binary132 2y agoHow do these things compare to “regular” lithium batteries on fire hazard?
- xhkkffbf 2y agoThe article says that it eliminates the problem. But I find that hard to believe. On the other hand, silicon dioxide is already oxidized so it can't burn more.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ianburrell 2y agoSolid state batteries replace the flammable liquid electrolyte with nonflammable solid one. It isn't the lithium that is burning. Also, LiFePO4 are already nonflammable lithium batteries. They have lower power density when solid state are supposed to be equal or better to LiPo.
- moogly 2y agohttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435122000885 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243512... > We show that short-circuited all-solid-state batteries can reach temperatures significantly higher than conventional Li-ion, which could lead to fire through flammable packaging and/or nearby materials. Our work highlights the need for quantitative safety analyses of solid-state batteries. Would be interesting to hear how Samsung claim to have solved dendrite formation in their solid state batteries. > dendrite
- bagels 2y agoThere's still a potential for a short circuit and a rapid release of energy. Whether that release itself is fire, or the energy causes plasmas and fires doesn't really seem to matter much.
- Tade0 2y agoThe liquid electrolyte is where most of the fire hazard happens in a lithium-ion battery, as it's typically based on ethylene carbonate, which is flammable.
- ranger_danger 2y ago> eliminate risk of battery fires > very low risk of fire Which is it?
- borski 2y agoThe latter for now, the former hopefully eventually.
- snakeyjake 2y agoAnything can burn. Give me enough time and money and I'll make a bonfire out of a pile of tungsten logs. Some things burn more easily than others.
- Animats 2y ago"We supplied samples to customers from the end of last year to the beginning of this year and are receiving positive feedback," Samsung SDI VP Koh Joo-young said at SNE Battery Day 2024 in Seoul, according to Korean outlet The Elec and translated by Google." This would be more convincing if reviewers could order samples. Yoshino seemed to be shipping a solid state battery, but several people have bought and disassembled the thing, and it has liquid/gel components. That was disappointing. CATL has some good comments.[1] Wu Kai of CATL was quoted as saying that the maturity level of the technology and the manufacturing process can currently be categorised at 4 on a scale of 1 to 9. CATL wants to be at 7 to 8 by 2027, which is equivalent to the production of solid-state batteries in small quantities. CATL also mentions that they have 1,000 people in R&D working on this. This is a big project in China. The China All-Solid-State Battery Collaborative Innovation Platform is getting government funding and has all the big battery makers in China on board.[2] Toyota's roadmap shows solid state batteries around 2028.[3] There are solid state battery announcements all over, but the big players all admit that the manufacturing is really tough. A US startup exists.[4] They mostly make press releases, not products. [1] https://www.electrive.com/2024/04/29/catl-expects-to-produce-its-own-solid-state-batteries-in-small-series-by-2027/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/04/29/catl-expects-to-produce... [2] https://www.electrive.com/2024/05/30/china-solid-state-battery-research-domestic-companies/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/05/30/china-solid-state-batte... [3] https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery-plans-750-mi-range/ https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery... [4] https://www.electrive.com/2024/08/06/ion-storage-systems-announces-battery-research-breakthrough/ https://www.electrive.com/2024/08/06/ion-storage-systems-ann...
- hereme888 2y agoExpensive electric mowers will need these at discount if they ever hope to catch up to cheap gas mowers.
- ok_dad 2y agoMy “expensive” electric (battery) mower works for three mowings on my lawn and cost less than 6 months paying a lawn service. Perhaps someone with an acre needs a gas riding mower but anyone with the average sized yard probably can do electric today easily.
- hereme888 2y agoI bought an electric one because it was still quick ROI vs paying for lawn service, and also noise dB and avoiding breathing the gas exhaust. But here in KY the other week it rained for a whole week, the grass was really tall and thick, and the mower couldn't handle it at all. My neighbor's old, cheap gas mower worked just fine.
- ok_dad 2y agoThat's too bad, my mower seems to take anything I throw at it, in stride.