7 ms·

Defcon stiffs badge HW vendor, drags FW author offstage during talk

534 points by dmitrygr 2y ago

gus_massa 2y ago
Is there more context? Who wrote the original software? Were they paid or it was voluntary work? How they detected the additional screen?
sneak 2y ago
The same Defcon that allowed NSA director Keith Alexander to keynote. I even live in Vegas now and I don’t go anymore.
- sschueller 2y ago
  The event being named after a US military meeter to indicate how far away the US is from nuclear war should already be an indication. There are some good people there but also a lot of people who do not care what happens with what they build and look away when it would be time to speak up.
  - throw_m239339 2y ago
    > The event being named after a US military meeter to indicate how far away the US is from nuclear war should already be an indication. It's a clear reference to the movie WARGAMES more than a direct reference to the real world US military itself.
- borski 2y ago
  To be fair, there are a lot of hackers who work and/or worked for various intelligence agencies, either directly or as a contractor. Some of them are people who have also clearly been hackers before and after their work there. Was it weird? Absolutely. But let’s not pretend the government doesn’t hire hackers. It’s our biggest employer.
Animats 2y ago
Badge is a GameBoy emulator.[1] [1] https://www.dexerto.com/tech/hacking-convention-uses-fully-working-game-boy-emulators-as-badge-2857270/ https://www.dexerto.com/tech/hacking-convention-uses-fully-w...
- dmitrygr 2y ago
  It also runs PalmOS. I published images for that.
  - markus_zhang 2y ago
    I heard they didn't pay you in full. This is so sad. Why did they do that?
    - gryfft 2y ago
      > Why did they do that? I'm confused by the rationale of questioning the OP about someone else's motivations.
      - qmarchi 2y ago
        Yes and no, they may have been informed in a non-public setting on _why_ DEFCON has refused to pay. DEFCON themselves is likely to not state a reason publicly, so getting a "here's what I was told by DEFCON" is likely the closest thing that we're going to get for an answer.
        dmitrygr 2y ago
        Even if they don’t pay, removing credit for work done is NOT ok. Work was done. Badge exists. Entropic made it
        gryfft 2y ago
        I read it as tinged with the implication that the wronged party must have done something to deserve it. In retrospect, perhaps I was being too sensitive.
gavinhoward 2y ago
I followed the link, and while there is a video of someone getting dragged off stage, I can't really verify the other claims. But even so, dragging a presenter off stage is sus. And doesn't seem smart because even if the other claims are not true, I'm tempted to never attend Defcon if that's what they do.
- dmitrygr 2y ago
  I can verify. I was the one dragged off. I wrote the firmware for the badge. All of it.
  - rib3ye 2y ago
    Can you please explain the timeline of events here?
    - dmitrygr 2y ago
      Edit: someone summarized it better: https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_who_wrote_the_badge_firmware_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_... Approx: Entropic is engaged to make hw. I am asked (unofficially) to do sw. Entropic works for free but does charge for parts and subcontracted stuff . Eventually defcon stops paying. Entropic is uninvited from badge talk. Their logo is ground out of plastic case. Their logo hidden in publicity photos of pcb. Tempers are high. I implement the Easter egg. This is months ago cause thats how long one needs to pre-flash chips. Time passed. Defcon still working on their game last moment. They had volunteers reflash badges cause they didn’t make the real pre flashing deadline. I forgot about the screen entirely more or less. Day of con. I spend all day helping debug badge issues. Push updates. Help people. Even pushed an update from plane on way to con to fix some things. Badge talk time. Half an hour before defcon tells me no talk for me cause someone found the Easter egg screen and they are pissed. I show up anyways since it was promised. I get dragged off stage. I hold talk outside answering questions. Next steps: I have no contact with defcon. They never bothered to. Normally: who cares? I get to talk, people get to play with badges. Nobody cares. But… I got kicked out, and… they have no license to my firmware they are distributing. Likely DMCA notice.
raldi 2y ago
Do you have a writeup or something? Twitter videos don’t really load anymore this year.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mvdtnz 2y ago
This needs way way way way more context.
- h0l0cube 2y ago
  Yep. Not sure why this is downvoted, but as an outsider to DefCon, I'm not sure what's going on here just looking at the tweet.
rwl4 2y ago
Here's a direct link to him being dragged off the stage: https://x.com/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637 https://x.com/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637 It's definitely somewhat aggressive. Way to burn bridges.
- mvdtnz 2y ago
  [flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jmprspret 2y ago
  Is there a non-twitter link? Blocks me because I have DNS adblock+using mobile browser.
  - swores 2y ago
    While it doesn't show you any thread context, for media tweets like the video one linked if you paste the URL into a site like https://savetwitter.net/en https://savetwitter.net/en it will spit out the video file to watch as well as telling you the text of that tweet (although, testing it with that tweet on my phone just now I had to select the title and paste it elsewhere to see as the page truncated the visible amount to fit phone width).
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
    https://nitter.poast.org/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637 https://nitter.poast.org/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637
- UberFly 2y ago
  Looked the opposite of aggressive to me. Smiles all around.
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    He's being carried off. He's only smiling because of how ridiculous it makes the organisers look
Firmwarrior 2y ago
I feel like this is a good spot to mention that Dmitry's a friggin beast when it comes to engineering. As that Tweetster put it: "Dmitry is an insanely skilled dude. Easily on par with Carmack or Karpathy IMO. They almost had to delay the original Kindle Fire tablet because of a rare bug that all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't fix in 6 months, but Dmitry nailed it in a few days" Summary of the events unfolding by Sargonas on Reddit: Maybe this will help with a listed summary of the known facts from first hands accounts. I am leaving gaps where there has just been speculation or second hand unverifiable information, and welcome anyone with first-hand knowledge of those aspects to comment below me to fill in the gaps. I'm merely presenting the facts as we have them from first-hand accounts (mostly from reddit and discord), without personal opinion or bias (hopefully, human nature is a tricky thing.) Entropic Engineering designed and built the circuitry of the badges, physically. They were either only partially, or not at all, paid by DEFCON for this work, contrary to whatever formal agreement they had in place. (Other amazingly talented individuals create the silk screen design, the shells, and the game, but are totally removed from this drama so I'm leaving them out of it.) Subsequently, all references to them have been removed in various materials, and even one of their logos was removed from the silk screen. (apparently small one may be left under the battery? but I can't check because I affixed mine to the board to stop it's shifting.) dmitrygr wrote the firmware for the badges as well Somewhere along the way, Entropic was cut out of the process and left to the side by DEFCON in a way that left Entropic feeling burned and under/un paid for their non-trivial work (according to some comments below it is 6 figure sum, but this is second hand info). Dmitry felt this was unfair, and put an easter egg into the badge code. This easter egg simply comments that Entropic engineered the badges, and had their credits removed everywhere, with an address for donations if you wish to support them. This was entirely Dmitrys doing as a gesture of thanks to the Entropic team. This easter egg more or less flew under the radar until EoD friday. Friday evening, after spending most of his day traveling to DEFCON and writing a 1.5 update in his spare time on his flight to fix some issues, Dmitry was up on stage with the other badge creators about to present the usual badge talk, when word of the Easter egg went around (likely due to him including some slides on his portion of the presentation about it.) DEFCON staff had Goons escort Dmitry off stage shortly before the talk started, delaying the talk some. during the talk, a comment was made about “unauthorized code“ being on the badges. Dmitry setup himself on the sidewalk outside the hall, and basically held his own mini talk about the work he did and Entropics contributions. At some point, LVMPD showed up. It is unclear to me personally who issued the call but second hand info says it was DEFCON staff. They noted Dmitry was simply talking to people (albiet nearly 100 of them) on a public sidewalk, outside a building owned by the county, and nothing was really amiss, and left shortly after. Dmitry, in his (likely valid) opinion feels this whole situation has not been handled well, and since his code was written free of charge, without any signed agreements with DEFCON or consequently any rights assignments, has announced that he intends to assert his legal ownership of the code (which is his right under us copyright law). As a result, he will gladly issue a non-transferable right to the code to any attendee who asks him for one, but is no longer going to "turn a blind eye" to the fact DEFCON does not have a legal license to his code, and instead look into taking actions that are within his power to take to clarify their lack of ownership of the code on the badges. (I believe in discord he may have gone so far as to say DMCA, but I need to double-check.) bearing this in mind this does add a curious wrinkle to the statement about “unauthorized code” from DEFCON given… The obvious.
deleted 2y ago
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CodesInChaos 2y ago
IANAL, but I'm skeptical that Dmitry's interpretation that Defcon has no license is correct. It sounds like Dmitry sent them firmware images with the mutual expectation that those will be used on badges, and they invited him to the Badge talk which could be considered consideration. That should constitute a contract, either verbal, or through concludent acts. This should give Defcon the right to use Dmitry's on the badges, but not modify it. So legally the whole thing would probably be considered a contract dispute, not use of unlicensed software. Defcon will probably argue that including the easter egg was some kind breach of duty of Dmitry's part, and gave them the right to remove him from the talk, and modify the firmware to remove the easter egg. My expectation is that courts would decide that Defcon has the right to use the firmware, but will require them to pay some kind of compensation for not living up to their side of the bargain.
- kaliqt 2y ago
  You can rescind license to use the software if you haven't been paid consideration, you do not and should not have to wait for a court to say so.
  - SR2Z 2y ago
    This is a silly take. Unless there was a contact written down, DefCon gets to remove this guy for any reason or even no reason. The incentive to not do it is because it makes them look like power-tripping maniacs, which is what happened. I've never been to the conference but now I think I'll never want to go.
    - olliej 2y ago
      Um, removing a person who’s giving a talk is a completely different action from the distribution of (potentially) unlicensed software. DEFCON may well have many reasons and legal recourses to stop a talk from occurring. But if they do not meet the terms of the contract for the IP, then the author/developer/manufacturer is entirely free to pursue action against them. Now it’s possible the developers had not watched Mike Monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk (https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1), but assuming that the claims in this tweet are remotely accurate you can bet that - assuming they can get someone to do it at all - next years defcon badge will be produce by someone with a contract that has the only sane language: “no transfer of any IP or right to distribute occurs until receipt of full payment”
TrueDuality 2y ago
[flagged]
- saagarjha 2y ago
  I was not in the crowd so I can't say anything more about that. That said, > This dude, as a contractor-for-hire, injected unwanted code he calls "just an easter egg" in the final firmware of the badge. This "unwanted code" is a screen asking for bitcoin donations and self-aggrandizing himself. If this is how you feel about an easter egg I suspect you misunderstand the point of DEF CON. Maybe the organizers of the conference do too.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - TrueDuality 2y ago
    Nah there is a difference between fun and light thing to find, and asking for money and disrupting an event.
    - lukan 2y ago
      Asking for money for other people, who created the badge - and had all their credit ereased. He put the credit back in as the easter egg. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207469
- notfed 2y ago
  It sounds like he did the Easter egg as a form of protest. Were the presenters he yelled at people who he was protesting against?
- threatofrain 2y ago
  Are you sure Dmitry was a paid contractor? Let's see if Defcon disputes that Dmitry was basically asked to informally work on a friends and family basis. Where are you getting this information that Dmitry was a paid contractor?
znpy 2y ago
I just read the timeline of events at https://old.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_who_wrote_the_badge_firmware_and/lheaj3b/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_... Frankly… i’m not surprised. The whole industry is filled with this kind of fascistoid attitude now. Every organization takes any chance they can to silence opinions they don’t like (and this happens both left and right). I see from the link above that the POLICE was called on dmitrygr for… speaking to people in a public space? Really? Defcon has gone from outcast meeting to full mainstream and interest-preserving. Kinda lost all of its hacker attitude, and this is proof.
deleted 2y ago
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orf 2y ago
Seeing as you’re in the thread Dmitry, what was the Kindle bug referenced here? Sounds interesting. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207740
- pdoege 2y ago
  See my reply below.
yyyfb 2y ago
Streisand effect strikes again Option A: let the dude have his talk. Nobody hears about it beyond the walls of defcon. Move along. Option B: uninvite and call security. Guy becomes instant personality on reddit and hn. I didn't know that defcon had become a shitty, small minded operation that abuses volunteer time and can't take an Easter egg, well now I do! Well played...
- threatofrain 2y ago
  I think this was going to blow up no matter what. Every single badge...
  - yyyfb 2y ago
    I'm pretty sure it would've stayed a defcon thing
- katzinsky 2y ago
  I stopped paying attention a few years ago because their leadership was visibly heading in this direction. It's always kind of frustrating to see programmers and other software people participating/defending that kind of thing considering logic is our whole game to begin with.
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
    The premise of ‘tech people’ not at all succumbing to the same shortcomings as any other human is utterly language and the source of so much undeserved hubris in this industry. Developers are some of the worst, ‘illogical’ people I’ve ever met, especially when it comes to anything interpersonal.
nubinetwork 2y ago
I've watched defcon and ccc a lot over the years... was this the first time a presenter has been physically dragged off stage?
- the_biot 2y ago
  Stallman arguably was, one time at FOSDEM. Not over some disagreement, he just wouldn't stop talking and make room for the next speaker :-)
gexcolo 2y ago
Am I missing something about how this story went missing from the front page? There is at least one story with less points posted 12 hours earlier that is still visisble there. https://archive.is/dtRg2 https://archive.is/dtRg2 https://archive.is/8HK5y https://archive.is/8HK5y https://archive.is/yk5uU https://archive.is/yk5uU Is there any transparency that could tell us why this change was made?
beaugunderson 2y ago
entropic put out their own statement as well: https://www.entropicengineering.com/defcon-32-statement https://www.entropicengineering.com/defcon-32-statement
- Aeolun 2y ago
  Oh, that clears up a lot. Now we only need to know why Defcon felt like they could just suddenly stop paying.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dang 2y ago
Subsequent related thread: DEF CON's response to the badge controversy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41211519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41211519 - Aug 2024 (41 comments)

534 points by dmitrygr 2y ago

Is there more context? Who wrote the original software? Were they paid or it was voluntary work? How they detected the additional screen?

sneak 2y ago

The same Defcon that allowed NSA director Keith Alexander to keynote. I even live in Vegas now and I don’t go anymore.

sschueller 2y ago
The event being named after a US military meeter to indicate how far away the US is from nuclear war should already be an indication. There are some good people there but also a lot of people who do not care what happens with what they build and look away when it would be time to speak up.
- throw_m239339 2y ago
  > The event being named after a US military meeter to indicate how far away the US is from nuclear war should already be an indication. It's a clear reference to the movie WARGAMES more than a direct reference to the real world US military itself.
borski 2y ago
To be fair, there are a lot of hackers who work and/or worked for various intelligence agencies, either directly or as a contractor. Some of them are people who have also clearly been hackers before and after their work there. Was it weird? Absolutely. But let’s not pretend the government doesn’t hire hackers. It’s our biggest employer.

Animats 2y ago

Badge is a GameBoy emulator.[1] [1] https://www.dexerto.com/tech/hacking-convention-uses-fully-working-game-boy-emulators-as-badge-2857270/ https://www.dexerto.com/tech/hacking-convention-uses-fully-w...

dmitrygr 2y ago
It also runs PalmOS. I published images for that.
- markus_zhang 2y ago
  I heard they didn't pay you in full. This is so sad. Why did they do that?
  - gryfft 2y ago
    > Why did they do that? I'm confused by the rationale of questioning the OP about someone else's motivations.
    - qmarchi 2y ago
      Yes and no, they may have been informed in a non-public setting on _why_ DEFCON has refused to pay. DEFCON themselves is likely to not state a reason publicly, so getting a "here's what I was told by DEFCON" is likely the closest thing that we're going to get for an answer.
      - dmitrygr 2y ago
        Even if they don’t pay, removing credit for work done is NOT ok. Work was done. Badge exists. Entropic made it
      - gryfft 2y ago
        I read it as tinged with the implication that the wronged party must have done something to deserve it. In retrospect, perhaps I was being too sensitive.

gavinhoward 2y ago

I followed the link, and while there is a video of someone getting dragged off stage, I can't really verify the other claims. But even so, dragging a presenter off stage is sus. And doesn't seem smart because even if the other claims are not true, I'm tempted to never attend Defcon if that's what they do.

dmitrygr 2y ago
I can verify. I was the one dragged off. I wrote the firmware for the badge. All of it.
- rib3ye 2y ago
  Can you please explain the timeline of events here?
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    Edit: someone summarized it better: https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_who_wrote_the_badge_firmware_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_... Approx: Entropic is engaged to make hw. I am asked (unofficially) to do sw. Entropic works for free but does charge for parts and subcontracted stuff . Eventually defcon stops paying. Entropic is uninvited from badge talk. Their logo is ground out of plastic case. Their logo hidden in publicity photos of pcb. Tempers are high. I implement the Easter egg. This is months ago cause thats how long one needs to pre-flash chips. Time passed. Defcon still working on their game last moment. They had volunteers reflash badges cause they didn’t make the real pre flashing deadline. I forgot about the screen entirely more or less. Day of con. I spend all day helping debug badge issues. Push updates. Help people. Even pushed an update from plane on way to con to fix some things. Badge talk time. Half an hour before defcon tells me no talk for me cause someone found the Easter egg screen and they are pissed. I show up anyways since it was promised. I get dragged off stage. I hold talk outside answering questions. Next steps: I have no contact with defcon. They never bothered to. Normally: who cares? I get to talk, people get to play with badges. Nobody cares. But… I got kicked out, and… they have no license to my firmware they are distributing. Likely DMCA notice.

raldi 2y ago

Do you have a writeup or something? Twitter videos don’t really load anymore this year.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mvdtnz 2y ago

This needs way way way way more context.

h0l0cube 2y ago
Yep. Not sure why this is downvoted, but as an outsider to DefCon, I'm not sure what's going on here just looking at the tweet.

rwl4 2y ago

Here's a direct link to him being dragged off the stage: https://x.com/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637 https://x.com/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637 It's definitely somewhat aggressive. Way to burn bridges.

mvdtnz 2y ago
[flagged]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jmprspret 2y ago
Is there a non-twitter link? Blocks me because I have DNS adblock+using mobile browser.
- swores 2y ago
  While it doesn't show you any thread context, for media tweets like the video one linked if you paste the URL into a site like https://savetwitter.net/en https://savetwitter.net/en it will spit out the video file to watch as well as telling you the text of that tweet (although, testing it with that tweet on my phone just now I had to select the title and paste it elsewhere to see as the page truncated the visible amount to fit phone width).
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
  https://nitter.poast.org/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637 https://nitter.poast.org/dmitrygr/status/1822124650547257637
UberFly 2y ago
Looked the opposite of aggressive to me. Smiles all around.
- rcxdude 2y ago
  He's being carried off. He's only smiling because of how ridiculous it makes the organisers look

Firmwarrior 2y ago

I feel like this is a good spot to mention that Dmitry's a friggin beast when it comes to engineering. As that Tweetster put it: "Dmitry is an insanely skilled dude. Easily on par with Carmack or Karpathy IMO. They almost had to delay the original Kindle Fire tablet because of a rare bug that all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't fix in 6 months, but Dmitry nailed it in a few days" Summary of the events unfolding by Sargonas on Reddit: Maybe this will help with a listed summary of the known facts from first hands accounts. I am leaving gaps where there has just been speculation or second hand unverifiable information, and welcome anyone with first-hand knowledge of those aspects to comment below me to fill in the gaps. I'm merely presenting the facts as we have them from first-hand accounts (mostly from reddit and discord), without personal opinion or bias (hopefully, human nature is a tricky thing.) Entropic Engineering designed and built the circuitry of the badges, physically. They were either only partially, or not at all, paid by DEFCON for this work, contrary to whatever formal agreement they had in place. (Other amazingly talented individuals create the silk screen design, the shells, and the game, but are totally removed from this drama so I'm leaving them out of it.) Subsequently, all references to them have been removed in various materials, and even one of their logos was removed from the silk screen. (apparently small one may be left under the battery? but I can't check because I affixed mine to the board to stop it's shifting.) dmitrygr wrote the firmware for the badges as well Somewhere along the way, Entropic was cut out of the process and left to the side by DEFCON in a way that left Entropic feeling burned and under/un paid for their non-trivial work (according to some comments below it is 6 figure sum, but this is second hand info). Dmitry felt this was unfair, and put an easter egg into the badge code. This easter egg simply comments that Entropic engineered the badges, and had their credits removed everywhere, with an address for donations if you wish to support them. This was entirely Dmitrys doing as a gesture of thanks to the Entropic team. This easter egg more or less flew under the radar until EoD friday. Friday evening, after spending most of his day traveling to DEFCON and writing a 1.5 update in his spare time on his flight to fix some issues, Dmitry was up on stage with the other badge creators about to present the usual badge talk, when word of the Easter egg went around (likely due to him including some slides on his portion of the presentation about it.) DEFCON staff had Goons escort Dmitry off stage shortly before the talk started, delaying the talk some. during the talk, a comment was made about “unauthorized code“ being on the badges. Dmitry setup himself on the sidewalk outside the hall, and basically held his own mini talk about the work he did and Entropics contributions. At some point, LVMPD showed up. It is unclear to me personally who issued the call but second hand info says it was DEFCON staff. They noted Dmitry was simply talking to people (albiet nearly 100 of them) on a public sidewalk, outside a building owned by the county, and nothing was really amiss, and left shortly after. Dmitry, in his (likely valid) opinion feels this whole situation has not been handled well, and since his code was written free of charge, without any signed agreements with DEFCON or consequently any rights assignments, has announced that he intends to assert his legal ownership of the code (which is his right under us copyright law). As a result, he will gladly issue a non-transferable right to the code to any attendee who asks him for one, but is no longer going to "turn a blind eye" to the fact DEFCON does not have a legal license to his code, and instead look into taking actions that are within his power to take to clarify their lack of ownership of the code on the badges. (I believe in discord he may have gone so far as to say DMCA, but I need to double-check.) bearing this in mind this does add a curious wrinkle to the statement about “unauthorized code” from DEFCON given… The obvious.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

CodesInChaos 2y ago

IANAL, but I'm skeptical that Dmitry's interpretation that Defcon has no license is correct. It sounds like Dmitry sent them firmware images with the mutual expectation that those will be used on badges, and they invited him to the Badge talk which could be considered consideration. That should constitute a contract, either verbal, or through concludent acts. This should give Defcon the right to use Dmitry's on the badges, but not modify it. So legally the whole thing would probably be considered a contract dispute, not use of unlicensed software. Defcon will probably argue that including the easter egg was some kind breach of duty of Dmitry's part, and gave them the right to remove him from the talk, and modify the firmware to remove the easter egg. My expectation is that courts would decide that Defcon has the right to use the firmware, but will require them to pay some kind of compensation for not living up to their side of the bargain.

kaliqt 2y ago
You can rescind license to use the software if you haven't been paid consideration, you do not and should not have to wait for a court to say so.
- SR2Z 2y ago
  This is a silly take. Unless there was a contact written down, DefCon gets to remove this guy for any reason or even no reason. The incentive to not do it is because it makes them look like power-tripping maniacs, which is what happened. I've never been to the conference but now I think I'll never want to go.
  - olliej 2y ago
    Um, removing a person who’s giving a talk is a completely different action from the distribution of (potentially) unlicensed software. DEFCON may well have many reasons and legal recourses to stop a talk from occurring. But if they do not meet the terms of the contract for the IP, then the author/developer/manufacturer is entirely free to pursue action against them. Now it’s possible the developers had not watched Mike Monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk (https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1), but assuming that the claims in this tweet are remotely accurate you can bet that - assuming they can get someone to do it at all - next years defcon badge will be produce by someone with a contract that has the only sane language: “no transfer of any IP or right to distribute occurs until receipt of full payment”

TrueDuality 2y ago

[flagged]

saagarjha 2y ago
I was not in the crowd so I can't say anything more about that. That said, > This dude, as a contractor-for-hire, injected unwanted code he calls "just an easter egg" in the final firmware of the badge. This "unwanted code" is a screen asking for bitcoin donations and self-aggrandizing himself. If this is how you feel about an easter egg I suspect you misunderstand the point of DEF CON. Maybe the organizers of the conference do too.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- TrueDuality 2y ago
  Nah there is a difference between fun and light thing to find, and asking for money and disrupting an event.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Asking for money for other people, who created the badge - and had all their credit ereased. He put the credit back in as the easter egg. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207469
notfed 2y ago
It sounds like he did the Easter egg as a form of protest. Were the presenters he yelled at people who he was protesting against?
threatofrain 2y ago
Are you sure Dmitry was a paid contractor? Let's see if Defcon disputes that Dmitry was basically asked to informally work on a friends and family basis. Where are you getting this information that Dmitry was a paid contractor?

znpy 2y ago

I just read the timeline of events at https://old.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_who_wrote_the_badge_firmware_and/lheaj3b/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_... Frankly… i’m not surprised. The whole industry is filled with this kind of fascistoid attitude now. Every organization takes any chance they can to silence opinions they don’t like (and this happens both left and right). I see from the link above that the POLICE was called on dmitrygr for… speaking to people in a public space? Really? Defcon has gone from outcast meeting to full mainstream and interest-preserving. Kinda lost all of its hacker attitude, and this is proof.

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orf 2y ago

Seeing as you’re in the thread Dmitry, what was the Kindle bug referenced here? Sounds interesting. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41207740

pdoege 2y ago
See my reply below.

yyyfb 2y ago

Streisand effect strikes again Option A: let the dude have his talk. Nobody hears about it beyond the walls of defcon. Move along. Option B: uninvite and call security. Guy becomes instant personality on reddit and hn. I didn't know that defcon had become a shitty, small minded operation that abuses volunteer time and can't take an Easter egg, well now I do! Well played...

threatofrain 2y ago
I think this was going to blow up no matter what. Every single badge...
- yyyfb 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure it would've stayed a defcon thing
katzinsky 2y ago
I stopped paying attention a few years ago because their leadership was visibly heading in this direction. It's always kind of frustrating to see programmers and other software people participating/defending that kind of thing considering logic is our whole game to begin with.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  The premise of ‘tech people’ not at all succumbing to the same shortcomings as any other human is utterly language and the source of so much undeserved hubris in this industry. Developers are some of the worst, ‘illogical’ people I’ve ever met, especially when it comes to anything interpersonal.

nubinetwork 2y ago

I've watched defcon and ccc a lot over the years... was this the first time a presenter has been physically dragged off stage?

the_biot 2y ago
Stallman arguably was, one time at FOSDEM. Not over some disagreement, he just wouldn't stop talking and make room for the next speaker :-)

gexcolo 2y ago

Am I missing something about how this story went missing from the front page? There is at least one story with less points posted 12 hours earlier that is still visisble there. https://archive.is/dtRg2 https://archive.is/dtRg2 https://archive.is/8HK5y https://archive.is/8HK5y https://archive.is/yk5uU https://archive.is/yk5uU Is there any transparency that could tell us why this change was made?

beaugunderson 2y ago

entropic put out their own statement as well: https://www.entropicengineering.com/defcon-32-statement https://www.entropicengineering.com/defcon-32-statement

Aeolun 2y ago
Oh, that clears up a lot. Now we only need to know why Defcon felt like they could just suddenly stop paying.

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dang 2y ago

Subsequent related thread: DEF CON's response to the badge controversy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41211519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41211519 - Aug 2024 (41 comments)