7 ms·

I agree with your position statement. However I think your point of view is developer centric, not user centric. Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not

I agree with your position statement. However I think your point of view is developer centric, not user centric. Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. And this is not new behavior- it has existed since the iPhone shipped. Consumers are voting for this. [1]. Secondly Google doesn't control what you install, so by definition doesn't keep a potion of "all revenue". And most value from mobile apps comes from elsewhere [2], so even the Apple number isn't accurate. As -developers- of course we want unfettered access to users devices to run any code we like. Unfortunately some proportion of developers want that access for reasons unhealthy to the consumer. So yes developers game the system. And your honest app gets rejected. But it's worth understanding that users -want- this curated access, and are voting For it not Against it. [1] you can argue about messenger, but that's about messenger not apps. [2] most all apps I install are free. The company that makes them gets revenue from some other part of the system. We have a "free app" that integrates with our product (which people pay for).

j45 2y ago
Maybe some people don't know, or have forgotten that Apple was dead set against an App Store, or third party apps when the iPhone came out. It only relented after it was jailbroken so many times. Apple's view was it would be a closed phone of apps how they said so. Perhaps some of that mindset moved to the respective App Stores. User's don't have as much choice as people think. The new App Stores being regulated in the EU are interesting for that reason. Still reading about phones like WebOS on Palm that was maybe a year too late, could be a different world if we had a phone running JS as front end and for apps like it did. Getting a walled garden up as quickly as possible was critically important.
- Angostura 2y ago
  I also remember the cover and commentary when the iphoneOS AppStore first came out. Most of it concerned what good value 30% represented to handle hosting, billing and marketing for the developer
  - setopt 2y ago
    When most apps cost $1 in total, paying 30 cents for all that was probably good value. Now that many high-end apps cost more than $100/yr, paying >100x more for the same service is not good value.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    I was using Kagi (the now-defunct store/payment API provider whose domain name later got bought by the search engine) at the time, and Kagi worked out at around that percentage for me* — though at the time, hosting and bandwidth was also a significant cost on top of that. And this weekend, I'm starting to convert some of my old Mac (PPC era Java) shareware into web games so I can play them again. No ads, no cookies, hosted for free (for now) on github. I tried it out on my iPad, which didn't exist as a product when I wrote the original, and turns out this is fine. * I can't be bothered to dig out the archive link for the pricing to figure out the exact percentage, there was both a fixed fee per transaction and a percentage fee that varied by payment method.
  - j45 2y ago
    Yup… almost felt like a deterrent to put something in the AppStore. Apple didn’t want users doing what they wanted on their iPhone. Only what was permitted. It’s nice that perspective evolved.
- exe34 2y ago
  it's the land of the free, they love being told by corporations what they do and don't want.
realusername 2y ago
> Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. I don't like iOS and I don't like Android either ... now what choice do I have left? Getting an old Nokia? It's about time to see that there's no choice and it's just a duopoly, even from the user point of view.
- bruce511 2y ago
  A duopoly is a choice. Not a lot of choice granted, but still a choice. There are also other platforms (like Samsung etc) but you won't like them for other reasons.
  - realusername 2y ago
    Both companies have near identical policies though. So there's only two companies and competition is at best limited.
  - sneak 2y ago
    Both companies have to comply with US government censorship prerogatives. There is no choice to avoid US censorship.
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  You have the choice of starting a competing company. You can convince investors that there is in fact a market who are unsatisfied with the current options which can sustain your new company. Of course, if everyone is satisfied with the current options it will be difficult to get investment, but then there is no problem either.
  - thanksgiving 2y ago
    The whole world will be against them. Nobody wants to develop apps for dozens of different competing platforms. In fact, for the longest time, I thought this was the reason Android/ open handet alliance exists but nobody talks about OHA anymore.
  - beretguy 2y ago
isodev 2y ago
Let's put on my "end user" hat for a moment: > Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS Have we really made an informed choice or did I just go into a store to "buy a phone". I don't recall a booklet with each device what you can and can't do on it? e.g. iPhone "can't play Fortnite, Apple temporarily doesn't like Epic" would have been a good warning. > They are not "hostage" they can leave I think if you try changing ecosystems today, you will realise it's a very painful process. Apple and Google don't interoperate, don't follow standards (or just invent their own) and there are aspects of both ecosystems that are closed so no "move my stuff" app can ever be smooth and feature complete. Also, how do I convince my family and friends to switch so we don't downgrade to a green bubble situation.
- bruce511 2y ago
  It's been close to 20 years since iPhone shipped. None of these restrictions are new. There are pros and cons to any consumer choice. I think users are well informed an making their choice explicitly. Yes, both eco systems employ lock-in and network-effects to keep customers. And yes that is an issue (separate from the app store issue.) It may interest you to know that outside the US (and some parts of Europe) Apple has a smaller network share and people avoid the green bubble effect by using alternate messengers (mostly WhatsApp). There are -choices- which you may or may not like. In the US folk have largely -chosen- to use iPhones despite Fortnite.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - isodev 2y ago
    > None of these restrictions are new. What's new is that Apple/Google now effectively control our lives. Their presence is everywhere. And so yes, in this case it really matters what happens in every ecosystem. These corporations are effectively dictating policy for how my life is supposed to work, although nobody elected them, there is no oversight. I live in Europe, so both Apple and Google are really an ocean away in terms of mindset and values.
    - 2y ago
raffraffraff 2y ago
> Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. Your are are hostage once Apple stops supporting your device, and it becomes officially impossible to install any software on it. Consider the case of a perfectly functioning iPad 4. If I wipe it and hand it to my nephew, there's nothing he can do with it. Nothing in the AppStore will install on it, and sideloading is impossible. Aside from chucking a perfectly working device into the e-waste, which I hate to do if someone else might get a year out of it, the only other options are complex, dubious hacks.
- kotaKat 2y ago
  > Nothing in the AppStore will install on it Odd, because my old Apple devices still let me sign in and offer me the last compatible versions of a lot of software, something Google doesn't do.
  - 1000100_1000101 2y ago
    Yeah, we switched our phones to Apple after my wife's 9 month old Galaxy stopped being usable for her main purpose... Google Calendar. Visiting Google Calendar website, it refused to load and said to use the app. App refused to load saying it needed a newer OS. There was no newer OS available for her phone. She was SOL. At the time only Google supported devices more than 1-2 years. Every Android partner had zero support. The message was clear. Switch to iPhone if we wanted >1-2 years of support, so we did, and we've been happy since (~15 years).
  - raffraffraff 2y ago
    The trouble I have with Apple is that while it's possible to install software on an old device you can only do it if you're "grandfathered in" via a previous install years ago. Take Garage Band for instance. My nephew has a 2014 Macbook Pro, can't install Band Camp. But if I wipe a 2014 Macbook and sign into App Store using my account I can install it simply because I chose to install it on a Mac I owned back in 2015. That does not make me jump for joy. Instead it tells me that I don't wanna touch another Apple product.
- 2y ago
sunshinerag 2y ago
This is correct. It is developer activism to keep claiming iOS users are hostage. It’s a choice
- talldayo 2y ago
  So... what if the developers are right, and their activism is warranted? It certainly seems like the courts are leaning towards the sides of the developers in the US and Europe.
Thorrez 2y ago
One of my coworkers switched from iOS to Android. She immediately stopped getting invited to events by her friends, because all those invites went over iMessage. She switched back to iOS. Disclosure: I work at Google but not on Android.
- kingsleyopara 2y ago
  You probably know this already but just in case: you need to deregister iMessage explicitly and can do this online even without the device https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage
- ryandrake 2y ago
  If your “friends” stop communicating with you and stop inviting you to group events just because of the brand of mobile phone you use, then I have some bad news for you: they might not really be friends.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    Or they need to de-register with iMessage (because of course, how could you not have known?!?). Apple is the company that gates iMessage because if they don't, in Craig Federighi's words, they are "[removing an] obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones". I also cringe at the corporate speak of "iPhone families". "We're an iPhone family". What?
  - talldayo 2y ago
    That's as stupid as saying that anyone that doesn't have you added on Facebook doesn't care about you. Sometimes technology erects pointless barriers with the intent of making people FOMO. This is like Social Media 101 right here, people 10 years ago had this figured out.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  People say these things and I just have no idea how its possible. You can text android phones. Yes the bubble will be green. No, no one past middle school cares about the color of the bubble.
stavros 2y ago
You greatly overestimate the capacity of the average person to care about the nuances of their phone's OS, the amount of environmental harm their way of life brings, the corruption of the politicians they vote for, etc. Obviously if you ask people, they'll say they don't want to not be able to install some apps on their phone, they don't want to destroy the environment, they want an honest government, etc. Yet when it comes time to act, they act contrary to all the above, because it's so hard to act otherwise. This is like saying shopkeepers are happy with mafia protection because they keep paying for it.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
> They are not "hostage" they can leave. I can "leave" Subaru. I can't "leave" a mobile operating system without pain.
- tzs 2y ago
  You also can't leave a non-mobile operating system without pain. Mac to Windows: pain. Windows to Mac: pain. Windows to Linux: pain. Linux to Windows: pain. Linux to different Linux distribution: pain. Mac to Linux: pain. Linux to Mac: pain. Some pairs might have lesser pain, such as Linux to different Linux distribution or Mac to/from Linux, if you mostly stick to more basic command line stuff, but the same is true for mobile device operating systems if you just stick to the basic mobile phone stuff which would be telephone, SMS messaging, camera, calendar, web browsing, and non-cloud syncing.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
    Good point but I think that it's another self-inflicted pain. Everyone can open this website no matter their operating system, architecture, etc. Why is that?
Aeolun 2y ago
> They are not "hostage" they can leave. Bad choice 1, or bad choice 2 is not really choice. At this point a phone is a utility, as it’s nearly impossible to get through life without one.
- ben_w 2y ago
  > Bad choice 1, or bad choice 2 is not really choice. While true (and indeed so generalisable that one can say this of e.g. two-party politics), there are phones which ship with other app stores (Samsung's Galaxy Store). Also: so far as I can tell the specific apps you need to get through life are themselves not monetised via the app store — e.g. banking apps, healthcare, and (as I read it) items bought within but not used within apps (such as groceries or travel passes) would not be subject to any commission from Apple.
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    My point was that since most ‘necessary for life’ apps (e.g. corona vaccine app, bank, travel etc) are only offered on one of two platforms, those platforms cannot really be considered a choice.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Oh, in that case fair point.
survirtual 2y ago
Choice? Can you book slots with TSMC for 3nm chips to put in another device? Do you have hardware and software patents on obvious design patterns that users like? There is no choice.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  > Can you book slots with TSMC for 3nm chips to put in another device? I imagine if Google or Microsoft turned up to TSMC and offered to beat Apple's price with similar guarantees of volume and capacity utilisation, TSMC would be happy to have that conversation, yes.
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
> Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. Competition laws are about fostering competitive markets. Customers and what they want is completely irrelevant past establishing that the market is not competitive.
sp527 2y ago
> Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. And this is not new behavior- it has existed since the iPhone shipped. Consumers are voting for this. [1]. Are you assuming users would still feel this way if they were made thoroughly aware that Apple's intermediation increases the prices of app services by up to 43%?

j45 2y ago

Maybe some people don't know, or have forgotten that Apple was dead set against an App Store, or third party apps when the iPhone came out. It only relented after it was jailbroken so many times. Apple's view was it would be a closed phone of apps how they said so. Perhaps some of that mindset moved to the respective App Stores. User's don't have as much choice as people think. The new App Stores being regulated in the EU are interesting for that reason. Still reading about phones like WebOS on Palm that was maybe a year too late, could be a different world if we had a phone running JS as front end and for apps like it did. Getting a walled garden up as quickly as possible was critically important.

Angostura 2y ago
I also remember the cover and commentary when the iphoneOS AppStore first came out. Most of it concerned what good value 30% represented to handle hosting, billing and marketing for the developer
- setopt 2y ago
  When most apps cost $1 in total, paying 30 cents for all that was probably good value. Now that many high-end apps cost more than $100/yr, paying >100x more for the same service is not good value.
- ben_w 2y ago
  I was using Kagi (the now-defunct store/payment API provider whose domain name later got bought by the search engine) at the time, and Kagi worked out at around that percentage for me* — though at the time, hosting and bandwidth was also a significant cost on top of that. And this weekend, I'm starting to convert some of my old Mac (PPC era Java) shareware into web games so I can play them again. No ads, no cookies, hosted for free (for now) on github. I tried it out on my iPad, which didn't exist as a product when I wrote the original, and turns out this is fine. * I can't be bothered to dig out the archive link for the pricing to figure out the exact percentage, there was both a fixed fee per transaction and a percentage fee that varied by payment method.
- j45 2y ago
  Yup… almost felt like a deterrent to put something in the AppStore. Apple didn’t want users doing what they wanted on their iPhone. Only what was permitted. It’s nice that perspective evolved.
exe34 2y ago
it's the land of the free, they love being told by corporations what they do and don't want.

realusername 2y ago

> Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. I don't like iOS and I don't like Android either ... now what choice do I have left? Getting an old Nokia? It's about time to see that there's no choice and it's just a duopoly, even from the user point of view.

bruce511 2y ago
A duopoly is a choice. Not a lot of choice granted, but still a choice. There are also other platforms (like Samsung etc) but you won't like them for other reasons.
- realusername 2y ago
  Both companies have near identical policies though. So there's only two companies and competition is at best limited.
- sneak 2y ago
  Both companies have to comply with US government censorship prerogatives. There is no choice to avoid US censorship.
Ferret7446 2y ago
You have the choice of starting a competing company. You can convince investors that there is in fact a market who are unsatisfied with the current options which can sustain your new company. Of course, if everyone is satisfied with the current options it will be difficult to get investment, but then there is no problem either.
- thanksgiving 2y ago
  The whole world will be against them. Nobody wants to develop apps for dozens of different competing platforms. In fact, for the longest time, I thought this was the reason Android/ open handet alliance exists but nobody talks about OHA anymore.
- beretguy 2y ago

isodev 2y ago

Let's put on my "end user" hat for a moment: > Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS Have we really made an informed choice or did I just go into a store to "buy a phone". I don't recall a booklet with each device what you can and can't do on it? e.g. iPhone "can't play Fortnite, Apple temporarily doesn't like Epic" would have been a good warning. > They are not "hostage" they can leave I think if you try changing ecosystems today, you will realise it's a very painful process. Apple and Google don't interoperate, don't follow standards (or just invent their own) and there are aspects of both ecosystems that are closed so no "move my stuff" app can ever be smooth and feature complete. Also, how do I convince my family and friends to switch so we don't downgrade to a green bubble situation.

bruce511 2y ago
It's been close to 20 years since iPhone shipped. None of these restrictions are new. There are pros and cons to any consumer choice. I think users are well informed an making their choice explicitly. Yes, both eco systems employ lock-in and network-effects to keep customers. And yes that is an issue (separate from the app store issue.) It may interest you to know that outside the US (and some parts of Europe) Apple has a smaller network share and people avoid the green bubble effect by using alternate messengers (mostly WhatsApp). There are -choices- which you may or may not like. In the US folk have largely -chosen- to use iPhones despite Fortnite.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- isodev 2y ago
  > None of these restrictions are new. What's new is that Apple/Google now effectively control our lives. Their presence is everywhere. And so yes, in this case it really matters what happens in every ecosystem. These corporations are effectively dictating policy for how my life is supposed to work, although nobody elected them, there is no oversight. I live in Europe, so both Apple and Google are really an ocean away in terms of mindset and values.
  - 2y ago

raffraffraff 2y ago

> Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. Your are are hostage once Apple stops supporting your device, and it becomes officially impossible to install any software on it. Consider the case of a perfectly functioning iPad 4. If I wipe it and hand it to my nephew, there's nothing he can do with it. Nothing in the AppStore will install on it, and sideloading is impossible. Aside from chucking a perfectly working device into the e-waste, which I hate to do if someone else might get a year out of it, the only other options are complex, dubious hacks.

kotaKat 2y ago
> Nothing in the AppStore will install on it Odd, because my old Apple devices still let me sign in and offer me the last compatible versions of a lot of software, something Google doesn't do.
- 1000100_1000101 2y ago
  Yeah, we switched our phones to Apple after my wife's 9 month old Galaxy stopped being usable for her main purpose... Google Calendar. Visiting Google Calendar website, it refused to load and said to use the app. App refused to load saying it needed a newer OS. There was no newer OS available for her phone. She was SOL. At the time only Google supported devices more than 1-2 years. Every Android partner had zero support. The message was clear. Switch to iPhone if we wanted >1-2 years of support, so we did, and we've been happy since (~15 years).
- raffraffraff 2y ago
  The trouble I have with Apple is that while it's possible to install software on an old device you can only do it if you're "grandfathered in" via a previous install years ago. Take Garage Band for instance. My nephew has a 2014 Macbook Pro, can't install Band Camp. But if I wipe a 2014 Macbook and sign into App Store using my account I can install it simply because I chose to install it on a Mac I owned back in 2015. That does not make me jump for joy. Instead it tells me that I don't wanna touch another Apple product.
2y ago

sunshinerag 2y ago

This is correct. It is developer activism to keep claiming iOS users are hostage. It’s a choice

talldayo 2y ago
So... what if the developers are right, and their activism is warranted? It certainly seems like the courts are leaning towards the sides of the developers in the US and Europe.

Thorrez 2y ago

One of my coworkers switched from iOS to Android. She immediately stopped getting invited to events by her friends, because all those invites went over iMessage. She switched back to iOS. Disclosure: I work at Google but not on Android.

kingsleyopara 2y ago
You probably know this already but just in case: you need to deregister iMessage explicitly and can do this online even without the device https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage
ryandrake 2y ago
If your “friends” stop communicating with you and stop inviting you to group events just because of the brand of mobile phone you use, then I have some bad news for you: they might not really be friends.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Or they need to de-register with iMessage (because of course, how could you not have known?!?). Apple is the company that gates iMessage because if they don't, in Craig Federighi's words, they are "[removing an] obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones". I also cringe at the corporate speak of "iPhone families". "We're an iPhone family". What?
- talldayo 2y ago
  That's as stupid as saying that anyone that doesn't have you added on Facebook doesn't care about you. Sometimes technology erects pointless barriers with the intent of making people FOMO. This is like Social Media 101 right here, people 10 years ago had this figured out.
kjkjadksj 2y ago
People say these things and I just have no idea how its possible. You can text android phones. Yes the bubble will be green. No, no one past middle school cares about the color of the bubble.

stavros 2y ago

You greatly overestimate the capacity of the average person to care about the nuances of their phone's OS, the amount of environmental harm their way of life brings, the corruption of the politicians they vote for, etc. Obviously if you ask people, they'll say they don't want to not be able to install some apps on their phone, they don't want to destroy the environment, they want an honest government, etc. Yet when it comes time to act, they act contrary to all the above, because it's so hard to act otherwise. This is like saying shopkeepers are happy with mafia protection because they keep paying for it.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

> They are not "hostage" they can leave. I can "leave" Subaru. I can't "leave" a mobile operating system without pain.

tzs 2y ago
You also can't leave a non-mobile operating system without pain. Mac to Windows: pain. Windows to Mac: pain. Windows to Linux: pain. Linux to Windows: pain. Linux to different Linux distribution: pain. Mac to Linux: pain. Linux to Mac: pain. Some pairs might have lesser pain, such as Linux to different Linux distribution or Mac to/from Linux, if you mostly stick to more basic command line stuff, but the same is true for mobile device operating systems if you just stick to the basic mobile phone stuff which would be telephone, SMS messaging, camera, calendar, web browsing, and non-cloud syncing.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  Good point but I think that it's another self-inflicted pain. Everyone can open this website no matter their operating system, architecture, etc. Why is that?

Aeolun 2y ago

> They are not "hostage" they can leave. Bad choice 1, or bad choice 2 is not really choice. At this point a phone is a utility, as it’s nearly impossible to get through life without one.

ben_w 2y ago
> Bad choice 1, or bad choice 2 is not really choice. While true (and indeed so generalisable that one can say this of e.g. two-party politics), there are phones which ship with other app stores (Samsung's Galaxy Store). Also: so far as I can tell the specific apps you need to get through life are themselves not monetised via the app store — e.g. banking apps, healthcare, and (as I read it) items bought within but not used within apps (such as groceries or travel passes) would not be subject to any commission from Apple.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  My point was that since most ‘necessary for life’ apps (e.g. corona vaccine app, bank, travel etc) are only offered on one of two platforms, those platforms cannot really be considered a choice.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Oh, in that case fair point.

survirtual 2y ago

Choice? Can you book slots with TSMC for 3nm chips to put in another device? Do you have hardware and software patents on obvious design patterns that users like? There is no choice.

zimpenfish 2y ago
> Can you book slots with TSMC for 3nm chips to put in another device? I imagine if Google or Microsoft turned up to TSMC and offered to beat Apple's price with similar guarantees of volume and capacity utilisation, TSMC would be happy to have that conversation, yes.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

> Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. Competition laws are about fostering competitive markets. Customers and what they want is completely irrelevant past establishing that the market is not competitive.

sp527 2y ago

> Firstly the 60% have chosen iOS. They are not "hostage" they can leave. And this is not new behavior- it has existed since the iPhone shipped. Consumers are voting for this. [1]. Are you assuming users would still feel this way if they were made thoroughly aware that Apple's intermediation increases the prices of app services by up to 43%?