7 ms·
Boeing's Starliner proves better at torching cash than reaching orbit
- Dalewyn 2y agoWhoever named the capsule Calamity was a bloody genius.
- azornathogron 2y agoFor those who may not know (like me before I looked it up just now) the capsule's real name is "Calypso" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Starliner_Calypso https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Starliner_Calypso As far as I can tell, "Calamity" is a name The Register made up.
- aodin 2y agoThat might even be worse: Calypso stranded Odysseus on an island for 7 years
- phkahler 2y agoOMFG that's beyond funny!
- lostlogin 2y agoThis is amazing. ‘In Greek mythology, Calypso was a nymph who lived on the island of Ogygia, where, according to Homer's Odyssey, she detained Odysseus for seven years against his will. She promised Odysseus immortality if he would stay with her, but Odysseus preferred to return home. Eventually, after the intervention of the other gods, Calypso was forced to let Odysseus go.’ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_(mythology) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_(mythology)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- HPsquared 2y agoNominative determinism...
- consp 2y agoThey will probably claim it's actually named after Jacques Cousteau's ship. Then again, that wasn't quite fast either. Or reliable. Or new.
- gojomo 2y agoHey now! It got two astronauts into orbit just fine. They just haven't yet figured out how to safely bring them back.
- Animats 2y agoUm, yes. 19 days until the ISS needs the docking port freed up for the ninth crewed Space-X mission.[1] The prep work is underway to bring the Starliner crew back on the Space-X Dragon, but NASA is stalling on the embarrassing decision.[2] Meanwhile, the next un-crewed supply Falcon 9 flight launches tomorrow, with a Northrop Grumman Cygnus craft. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/boeing-starliner-deadline-nasa-spacex-1932709 https://www.newsweek.com/boeing-starliner-deadline-nasa-spac... [2] https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-bring-starliners-astronauts-back-on-crew-dragon/ https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-...
- iancmceachern 2y agoI used to work for a guy who had previously worked in the Osprey Tilt Rotor plant in Philadelphia and he said it was a job factory, not a helicopter factory.
- ThinkBeat 2y agoMuch like everything related to the F35.
- ls612 2y agoAt least with F-35 we are getting stealth fighters by the thousand for the western alliance at the end of all of it. Starliner has delivered only pain and sadness.
- Caius-Cosades 2y agoYeah they might be buying the thousand but operating them is another matter quite entirely. If the United States is having trouble pushing the operational rate past the 45~ish% how are the poorer countries going to fare at this task?
- orwin 2y agoI'm not that sure about 'thousands'. The cost per flight hour is still more than 40k (LM said it would reach 27k by now), the availability is less than 60% if you take into account the planes who can't do external armed missions. If you don't, its 40%. From what I've heard they're finally keeping the F135, only doing a software upgrade to improve consumption by 7% (so it might improve availability, since less energy is lost, and a huge issue with the F-35 is heat dissipation at low speed, which breaks electronics). Parts availability is still a huge issue, the f35 pilots don't have the hours recommended by NATO, they do a lot of simulator though, but right now they have sightly more hours than Russian pilots (which were made fun of). It's less of an issue for the US than Norway and Australia though, since you still have F16. Still a great plane, but maintenance and parts availability issues will shorten it's life and the amount of usable planes at the same time.
- Tuna-Fish 2y agoEven if it's deemed sufficiently safe, there's no way the Starliner is coming down before 6th of November. Harris is the chair of the Space Council. Even if it's in no way her fault, two torched astronauts with her in some way attached is just too easy to write headlines about. Similarly, if they publicly decide that it's unsafe, that's declaring failure.
- phkahler 2y agoBy then enough helium will leak away that it won't be able/safe to return with humans. They can say it just took too long and kinda shove it under the rug. Then if it burns up it's because of the delays.
- Tuna-Fish 2y agoThis is wrong. The helium leaks are currently not active, the leaks are downstream of the main valve, which is closed. Based on our current understanding of it's problems, Starliner should be able to wait on the station for the full 6 months it's certified for, none of the known issues in it limit endurance when docked to the station. Of course, there could issues that have not cropped up yet...
- khuey 2y agoDon't they need the docking port for Crew-9?
- zpeti 2y agoI genuinely hope this isn't a massive political issue where the people in charge are risking these two astronauts lives because they simply cannot stand asking Musk for help, and again making it look like the establishment simply cannot match Musk's companies. Imagine what Trump will say when he finds out Harris is chair of the space council and Musk had to help her... But that's still not a reason to risk two astronaut's lives.
- sdwr 2y agoGood people get stuff done, sometimes by calculating the politics, and sometimes by just doing it, image be damned. The idea is, if you have enough street cred, and enthusiasm from the public, and genuine shit to do, you can get up on stage and say "The American rocket we spent $10B on doesn't work." and every reasonable person will kinda shrug and move on. I don't know if the Harris campaign is at that point, but I'd love to see them get there. Every second spent on optics and politics is a second of thrust not spent on reaching a stable, matter-of-fact orbit
- greatgib 2y agoJust imagine being one of the two test pilots that will have to go back inside this junk vehicule for business reason!
- ldjkfkdsjnv 2y agoThese old corporations, Boeing, Intel, IBM etc. They need to have all upper management fired. Bring in 30 year olds, pay them 1M a year, and let them run these companies.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y agoI don’t feel that’s working out so well for tech. There’s a lot of money being made, but the disasters are Jurassic-scale, and nonstop. The issue seems more like, whoever is in the Iron Throne, has almost no discernible ethical compass. But absolutely no one in a position to do anything, seems to want any kind of oversight or accountability in place, so we’d just be switching deck chairs on The Titanic, until that happens.
- HPsquared 2y ago"Captains of Industry" vs "Robber Barons" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_of_industry https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_of_industry
- AlbertCory 2y agoYour first two sentences were fine. Too bad you got the solution wrong. They need to bring in competent engineers, regardless of their age.
- tiahura 2y agoMid 40s - mid 50s.
- tredre3 2y ago> Bring in 30 year olds, pay them 1M a year, and let them run these companies. The SV way is very good at creating billion-dollar companies out of MVP products, but it is not good at creating a culture of quality engineering. Which is the exact issue Boeing currently has.
- jmyeet 2y agoBoeing is (yet another) cautionary tale for what happens to a company when the finance people take over, which is essentially inevitable once a company has a "monopoly". Yes I know there's Airbus but a duopoly can be pretty functionally similar to a monopoly. The oft-quoted Steve Jobs quote on why Xerox failed [1] is always relevant. Starliner, SLS and Artemis both behave exactly like a jobs program gone bad. Now I'm not opposed to a jobs program per se. We could honestly use more of that. But the difference between Boeing's efforts and SpaceX's efforts is just astounding. Starliner launches on the fully expendable Atlas V N22 rocket, which reportedly costs $164 million [2] to launch. Falcon 9 seems to cost ~$62 million per launch [3] before you even factor in reuse. I don't know how (or even if) a company can be rescued when it gets to this stage. It becomes a rent-seeking Frankenstein of tiny warring fiefdoms. We've also seen this with Intel's complete inability to internally collaborate as mid-level VPs seemingly engage in turf wars rather than share resources and information. EDIT: fixed typo (Xerox) [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGKsbt5wii0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGKsbt5wii0 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_V https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_V [3]: https://nstxl.org/reducing-the-cost-of-space-travel-with-reusable-launch-vehicles/ https://nstxl.org/reducing-the-cost-of-space-travel-with-reu...
- oldpersonintx 2y ago[dead]
- black_13 2y agoIf you took the same amount of money spent on the starliner and spent it on education poverty eradication and just universal income Americans would howl.
- thecleaner 2y agoDont put accountants in charge of engineering heavy companies.
- lostlogin 2y agoAre there businesses (other than accounting) where they should be in charge?
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoSome of the worst mistakes at Boeing were made when engineers were at the helm. This problem won’t be solved with truisms.
- thecleaner 2y agoInteresting. Examples ? I think its good to be aware of these blindspots.
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoMullenberg was an aerospace engineer [1]. Two before him was Stonecipher, a physicist [2], who took over from Condit, another engineer [3]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Muilenburg#Early_life_and_education https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Muilenburg#Early_life... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Stonecipher#Early_life_and_education https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Stonecipher#Early_life... [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_M._Condit#Education https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_M._Condit#Education
- sbuttgereit 2y agoMoreover, what many consider Boeing's glory days were largely had under a CEO that was lawyer, not an engineer.
- consp 2y agoThe problem is not engineers, it's short term profit above all. I've heard of a few more companies who are bleeding engineers and selling off parts to fill the deficit but still keep the divident payouts and stock buybacks rolling as that's the most important of all.
- thriftwy 2y agoLooks like a good time to check out these ISS - MKAD 19th km marshrutkas' timetable.
- selimthegrim 2y agoThey can just use 3 rubles they kept for snack.
- shrubble 2y agoFormer Boeing CEO McNerny hated the "phenomenally talented **holes" in engineering roles and sought to minimize their power or get rid of them . Dreamliner was delayed and cost 3x the amount to develop as a result. This may be more follow-on from engineering-hostile management.
- api 2y agoThere seem to be a ton of business suite types that have active contempt for whoever does the work. They’re always overpaid or lazy or whatever. Meanwhile they will spend endless amounts on consultants and other fluff. It feels somehow related to the political dynamic where things like building infrastructure are seen as wasteful but not… well… massive graft and waste. It’s fine to set money on fire as long as you’re not actually accomplishing anything.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago> Meanwhile they will spend endless amounts on consultants and other fluff Preferring consultants over employees is a way for those in charge to quietly practice nepotism and other forms of favor-granting, shuffling money to people loyal to them or as favors to other powerful people who they want to get favors from I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time, but I think if you could give people a truth serum when they are choosing consultants and ask if any of their friends, family, or personal professional network stand to gain from the contract, many would have to say yes
- EnigmaFlare 2y agoHe might be right though. If it's going to be impossible to compete with SpaceX, however talented the engineers are, they can still make money for a while being the backup that the government wants even if they never produce anything that works.
- 7thaccount 2y agoHow does that make him right? Getting rid of the talented people making new products just means you can only win via regulatory capture.
- thecleaner 2y agoWhat makes AirBus better than boeing at making aircrafts ? Boeing just seems to be going down hill. Much like their aircrafts.
- immibis 2y agoAirbus just isn't suffering capitalism disease at the exact same moment Boeing is. But most companies end up this way, and Airbus will too, eventually.
- JonChesterfield 2y agoAirbus wants to make aircraft. Boeing wants to please the US government. The employees follow the resulting incentive structures.
- callamdelaney 2y agoA very predictable outcome.
- ambicapter 2y agoPOSIWID
- csours 2y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIUrvoIdsU0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIUrvoIdsU0 Eager Space - Good NASA, Bad NASA > 1:17 "How can an organization that is so great at science be so terrible at creating a new launch system?" > 2:33 "What goes on inside any organization is what I've taken to calling the game. ... Every large organization has their own version of the game. The goal of the game is simple - it is to move up the ladder in the company to get more money more reports more power more budget more respect. The game is about career, and very much about the career for the people who matter: management and especially executive management." > 15:20 "The game was: Keep NASA space flight centers open, Keep money flowing to NASA contractors, Keep votes flowing to Congress people, Preserve NASA management jobs"
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]