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> The US cultural bias is showing here, as it's assumed that profit is above all else I asked my Greek teacher what they biggest change she experienced moving

by sotix 2y ago

> The US cultural bias is showing here, as it's assumed that profit is above all else I asked my Greek teacher what they biggest change she experienced moving to the US was, and she said that in Greece, her community prioritized happiness above all else, but everyone she met in the US prioritized making money. I also asked her what the financial crisis was like in Greece, and she said that you couldn’t find an empty seat at a taverna in her village on the weekends. They barely had any money, and few around her were employed, but they had certain priorities. Meanwhile in the US, I had a teacher condescendingly tell me that the Greeks were lazy (ignorant of the history that led to 2008). It can be hard to see through certain cultural biases. Particularly when the primary goals are so different.

stavros 2y ago
Yeah, this is spot on. It's just that the priorities are different (even unemployed Greeks scrape enough money to have coffee with their friends), which can seem to Americans like we're lazy.
- pavlov 2y ago
  I was recently in Lisbon and was surprised that an espresso still costs 70 cents despite the influx of tourists and expats. If it's the same in Greece, I can easily see how an unemployed person can afford to hang out.
  - InitialLastName 2y ago
    When I visited a rust belt city recently, it was amazing how many of the coffee shops and bars were still open of my preferred "sit and have a quiet conversation" variety. In my VHCOL city, where commercial rents are absurd, the only coffee shops/bars that can stay open are the ones that can drive tons of business (and thus push patrons through like cattle, with all cues pointing towards "you shouldn't be hanging out here").
  - xeromal 2y ago
    My buddy lived in greece for a bit and he laughed at how he could order a one euro coffee delivered to his room or office almost anywhere. He couldn't comprehend how it works.
  - stavros 2y ago
    It used to be 2.5 EUR or so, but now it's risen due to inflation. Keep in mind that in Greece, your family will also support you if you're unemployed, so it's not uncommon for parents to share their pension or children to share their salary with the family.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >Keep in mind that in Greece, your family will also support you if you're unemployed That's cool, if you have a family nearby or you're a in a good relationship with yours. Sucks for those who do not, which is why social safety nets are more important. You pay taxes but in case you fall down, the safety net should catch you make sure you don't end up on the streets if you don't have a family nearby.
      - stavros 2y ago
        Again, that's Us-centric thinking. If you're unemployed and don't have family nearby, you either move there to save on costs, or they send you money. There are very few people here who have a relationship with their families so bad that the family won't support them, because it's a social expectation. That's the definition of a social safety net, as it's a safety net that society institutes.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Again, that's Us-centric thinking. Not it isn't, I'm European from a European centric thinking. What you're talking about applies if young people choose to continue living in the same village where they were born and their family still lives, but that hasn't been the case in a long time. Young people (in Europe) move to big metro areas for university or jobs, and often, especially in Greece, they move to other EU countries. Your family from some Greek village, won't be able to come take care of you in Amsterdam, and most likely they won't have the money to support your NL living expenses from their Greek pensions to help you out, nor will you moving from Amsterdam back to some Greek village help you out too much since there's no jobs in your niche there, or maybe even no jobs at all so now you're broke in Greece instead of broke in Amsterdam but with less job options. Your PoV scenario is just unrealistic in the world of today and only applies in the traditionalistic tribal village lifestyle that's more or less dead nowadays and few live it. Sure, some lucked out and were born in afluent big metro areas with universities and jobs meaning they always have their family close by, but that's more the exception rather than the rule. If you look at international cities like Munich or Berlin, most people living there weren't actually born there or have family there, they just moved there for study/work. How can family help them then?
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Yeah, one of the most notable thing about the HCOL US areas is that service employees are paid very well. By comparison, in India, 15 minute delivery at 3 AM costs relatively nothing.
nradov 2y ago
It's tough to be happy when you're broke and worrying about whether you can get another loan.
bayareateg 2y ago
I find that people often put on rose colored glasses when talking about the "old country," myself included. It is a little ridiculous to think that Greeks don't prioritize making money over some nebulous "community happiness"' You should have asked her why she came to the US
- hobs 2y ago
  Pretty much every Greek that I have met (my father included) did it for a better future (money, no future with the military junta, american base left later.) Plenty of Greeks have no interest in going back because they want the "American" life, but there's no question you ate better in the village, had more community, or had a sense of history - what you didn't have was more than ~35k euros a year, if you were lucky.
  - mikrl 2y ago
    A philosophical question is whether one could have it all? Maybe the relative poverty fosters that kind of culture, and a high earning society necessarily becomes atomized, or perhaps atomized societies fosters high earning.
    - wordpad25 2y ago
      Being poor fosters comradery and social connections Everyone knows everyone in a ghetto. Gated communities often don't know their next door neighbors.
- keybored 2y ago
  > You should have asked her why she came to the US People sometimes have rose-colored glasses about emigrating to the US.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    My dad was in the AF, and we rotated back and forth between the US and Europe. A friend of his married a British woman while stationed there, and took her back to the States when the tour was over. She endlessly complained about the US, and how Britain was so much better. Eventually, they were rotated to Germany. As soon as they arrived, she was off to England. 6 weeks later, she was back, and did not complain about the US again.
geodel 2y ago
So "Greek are lazy" is condescending but everyone in US prioritized making money is just fact? BTW there must be some interesting story that your Greek teacher had to move to US and deprioritize happiness.
- cultofmetatron 2y ago
  I'm an American currently living in greece for the past month. Both are more or less factual statements.
  - valval 2y ago
    Ah yes, the famous “more or less factual statements”, a useful contribution to any serious thought process
apantel 2y ago
People who want to make money above all else are pursuing that because they think that will make them happy. It’s just their idea of the path that will get them to happiness. They see Mark Zuckerberg wakeboarding at his Lake Tahoe retreat and think, ‘That’s happiness — having billions of dollars, not having to worry about meeting basic needs, being able to do what you want.’
- nox101 2y ago
  Zuckerberg doesn't get to do what he wants. He's in meetings constantly and rarely has a free moment
  - sateesh 2y ago
    But that is the choice he has made. I guess he can very well afford to have a less hectic schedule or to not work too.
  - mattm 2y ago
    He could step anytime he wants to. He's not someone who is going to work to make sure him and his family have food to eat.
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > Zuckerberg doesn't get to do what he wants. He's in meetings constantly and rarely has a free moment This argument of Conclusion: $RichPerson doesn't get to do what they want. Premise: They're under constant obligation to $MoneyMachine is both unsound and invalid. The premise is wrong: at that levels of wealth, the obligation is not real, it's opt-in and you can opt-out at any time. The conclusion is wrong too: At that levels of wealth, the person can do everything anyone else can do in their off-time, and they have much more off-time than the person making the argument anyway. It's a poor argument and should not be made.
    - est31 2y ago
      Zuckerberg is a famous person though, and famous people can't go to places which are sufficiently open to the public without causing major issues. A random billionaire nobody knows might walk around the Colosseum undetected, but try doing that with a profile like Zuckerberg's. Also, there is the personal security concern. If you are rich, you have a lot of ability to pay kidnappers of you and your family. There is the story that shortly after Pichai became Google CEO, he walked around a conference and he barely got recognized, but if you stay in the limelight for long enough, people recognize you. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mathonan/searching-for-google-ceo-sundar-pichai-the-most-powerful-tec https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mathonan/searching-for-...
Aunche 2y ago
> her community prioritized happiness above all else, but everyone she met in the US prioritized making money. I'd bet that she was wealthy relative to the average Greek, but was perceived as "regular" because they are middle class relative to the rest of the west. The wealthy in the the US can prioritize happiness above all else. On average, Greeks works the longest hours in Europe, which is more than the average American. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/04/world/europe/greece-six-day-workweek.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/04/world/europe/greece-six-d...
negus 2y ago
> (ignorant of the history that led to 2008) can you share your version please?
- sotix 2y ago
  I’m not sure if it’s “my version” or simply a more macro lens at history. Like all history, it’s tricky to pick a starting point, but an easy one is the end of 400 years of Ottoman Turk occupation leading into the 20th century with the Balkan Wars, WWI, and then WWII. Greece successfully fought off Italy in WWII but then was quickly occupied by Nazi Germany for four years. During this time, the Nazis successfully exterminated every Greek Jew. This period created extremely radical political parties that persist to this day. Following WWII, Greece then transitioned into a dictatorship lasting until 1974. Greece presently has the youngest democracy in the EU (50 years old). The past 500 years have been hard on Greece, and the past century was no exception. Modern Greece is a young country with tons of recent scars that have led to corruption and bribery that a healthier nation may not have developed as intensely. My grandfather fled the region with his father in the early twentieth century when the Italian army began regularly hanging people in their town square. It really traumatized him. Anyway, 2008 wasn’t some event that happened in a vacuum. There were many events that shaped the country leading up to it. To simply claim it happened because the Greeks were lazy is itself a lazy take. A very good book on the topic is Inside Hitler’s Greece[0]. [0]: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300089233/ https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300089233/
EasyMark 2y ago
Does this mean Greek Culture is better or simply different? I think that’s the real question. And also better for whom? It’s a judgement call. You can find communities (small towns) that are much closer to this style of thinking than in cities like LA or NYC.
neutronicus 2y ago
If we're sharing anecdotes from Greek-Americans, a research advisor of mine said the biggest change he experienced was getting a driver's license without bribing anyone
aiilns 2y ago
As a Greek, a) lots of people lost their jobs during the crisis, could barely make ends meet or even committed suicide; those people certainly didn't fill the taverns. B) It is true that Greeks won't cut on food/going out as readily as others. People in Greece certainly don't prioritize happiness instead of making money. There was a clear shift where Greeks became more and more unhappy after the (still ongoing) crisis. No1 problem is financial insecurity; as a resident (MD) I work 70-80hrs/week, for less than 7€/hour. Prices are comparable with rich EU countries.
- geodel 2y ago
  Thanks for giving perspective from an unprivileged position. I have similar stories where people with money create national traditions of being together to celebrate festivals, family events together with friends and families and in general prioritize family over jobs. Poor people seems to have no such traditions they will stay put in whichever town/city they are stuck in their low paying jobs.
emporas 2y ago
If Greeks were lazy, they would not be working towards creating powerful nuclear weapons. Based on my calculations, by 2030, maximum 2035, we will have personal nuclear weapons. By we, i mean millions and billions of people on the planet, including of course Greeks. In general, what an individual is doing with his free time, is no one's business.
- 4gotunameagain 2y ago
  "Greeks ... working towards creating powerful nuclear weapons" Source ? I highly, highly doubt that this is true.
  - emporas 2y ago
    Every smart person on the planet works towards nuclear weapons. It's self evident, it doesn't need source. I am talking very about small nukes, cheap, minimal and for personal use as a self defense. Two grams of gold cheap, 1 km evaporation range and 5 km blast. Very minimal, but as soon as millions of people have one, gather a lot of them in one place and you do some serious damage. This lady seriously suggests that millions of Thai's will have their personal nukes, millions of Mongolians or Brazilians will have small nuclear weapons each, but Greeks will not, because Greeks are lazy somehow. I don't know where she reads that stuff, probably some comic series.
    - imtringued 2y ago
      Ok, now let's assume this is correct and a deranged person in my neighborhood threatens to use their nuke, how is the police supposed to react to that? Are they supposed to detonate their personal nuke and destroy the neighbourhood? You haven't thought through any of this.
bookaway 2y ago
I wouldn't start paying attention until you got answers to the same questions for Spain and France.
happymellon 2y ago
> and she said that in Greece, her community prioritized happiness above all else, but everyone she met in the US prioritized making money. Either they were a liar or an idiot. Greece is the worst example as it is highly optimised for money and not social happiness/success. There is a reason that fraud is rampant and no one pays taxes unless they have to.

by sotix 2y ago

stavros 2y ago

Yeah, this is spot on. It's just that the priorities are different (even unemployed Greeks scrape enough money to have coffee with their friends), which can seem to Americans like we're lazy.

pavlov 2y ago
I was recently in Lisbon and was surprised that an espresso still costs 70 cents despite the influx of tourists and expats. If it's the same in Greece, I can easily see how an unemployed person can afford to hang out.
- InitialLastName 2y ago
  When I visited a rust belt city recently, it was amazing how many of the coffee shops and bars were still open of my preferred "sit and have a quiet conversation" variety. In my VHCOL city, where commercial rents are absurd, the only coffee shops/bars that can stay open are the ones that can drive tons of business (and thus push patrons through like cattle, with all cues pointing towards "you shouldn't be hanging out here").
- xeromal 2y ago
  My buddy lived in greece for a bit and he laughed at how he could order a one euro coffee delivered to his room or office almost anywhere. He couldn't comprehend how it works.
- stavros 2y ago
  It used to be 2.5 EUR or so, but now it's risen due to inflation. Keep in mind that in Greece, your family will also support you if you're unemployed, so it's not uncommon for parents to share their pension or children to share their salary with the family.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Keep in mind that in Greece, your family will also support you if you're unemployed That's cool, if you have a family nearby or you're a in a good relationship with yours. Sucks for those who do not, which is why social safety nets are more important. You pay taxes but in case you fall down, the safety net should catch you make sure you don't end up on the streets if you don't have a family nearby.
    - stavros 2y ago
      Again, that's Us-centric thinking. If you're unemployed and don't have family nearby, you either move there to save on costs, or they send you money. There are very few people here who have a relationship with their families so bad that the family won't support them, because it's a social expectation. That's the definition of a social safety net, as it's a safety net that society institutes.
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Again, that's Us-centric thinking. Not it isn't, I'm European from a European centric thinking. What you're talking about applies if young people choose to continue living in the same village where they were born and their family still lives, but that hasn't been the case in a long time. Young people (in Europe) move to big metro areas for university or jobs, and often, especially in Greece, they move to other EU countries. Your family from some Greek village, won't be able to come take care of you in Amsterdam, and most likely they won't have the money to support your NL living expenses from their Greek pensions to help you out, nor will you moving from Amsterdam back to some Greek village help you out too much since there's no jobs in your niche there, or maybe even no jobs at all so now you're broke in Greece instead of broke in Amsterdam but with less job options. Your PoV scenario is just unrealistic in the world of today and only applies in the traditionalistic tribal village lifestyle that's more or less dead nowadays and few live it. Sure, some lucked out and were born in afluent big metro areas with universities and jobs meaning they always have their family close by, but that's more the exception rather than the rule. If you look at international cities like Munich or Berlin, most people living there weren't actually born there or have family there, they just moved there for study/work. How can family help them then?
- renewiltord 2y ago
  Yeah, one of the most notable thing about the HCOL US areas is that service employees are paid very well. By comparison, in India, 15 minute delivery at 3 AM costs relatively nothing.

nradov 2y ago

It's tough to be happy when you're broke and worrying about whether you can get another loan.

bayareateg 2y ago

I find that people often put on rose colored glasses when talking about the "old country," myself included. It is a little ridiculous to think that Greeks don't prioritize making money over some nebulous "community happiness"' You should have asked her why she came to the US

hobs 2y ago
Pretty much every Greek that I have met (my father included) did it for a better future (money, no future with the military junta, american base left later.) Plenty of Greeks have no interest in going back because they want the "American" life, but there's no question you ate better in the village, had more community, or had a sense of history - what you didn't have was more than ~35k euros a year, if you were lucky.
- mikrl 2y ago
  A philosophical question is whether one could have it all? Maybe the relative poverty fosters that kind of culture, and a high earning society necessarily becomes atomized, or perhaps atomized societies fosters high earning.
  - wordpad25 2y ago
    Being poor fosters comradery and social connections Everyone knows everyone in a ghetto. Gated communities often don't know their next door neighbors.
keybored 2y ago
> You should have asked her why she came to the US People sometimes have rose-colored glasses about emigrating to the US.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  My dad was in the AF, and we rotated back and forth between the US and Europe. A friend of his married a British woman while stationed there, and took her back to the States when the tour was over. She endlessly complained about the US, and how Britain was so much better. Eventually, they were rotated to Germany. As soon as they arrived, she was off to England. 6 weeks later, she was back, and did not complain about the US again.

geodel 2y ago

So "Greek are lazy" is condescending but everyone in US prioritized making money is just fact? BTW there must be some interesting story that your Greek teacher had to move to US and deprioritize happiness.

cultofmetatron 2y ago
I'm an American currently living in greece for the past month. Both are more or less factual statements.
- valval 2y ago
  Ah yes, the famous “more or less factual statements”, a useful contribution to any serious thought process

apantel 2y ago

People who want to make money above all else are pursuing that because they think that will make them happy. It’s just their idea of the path that will get them to happiness. They see Mark Zuckerberg wakeboarding at his Lake Tahoe retreat and think, ‘That’s happiness — having billions of dollars, not having to worry about meeting basic needs, being able to do what you want.’

nox101 2y ago
Zuckerberg doesn't get to do what he wants. He's in meetings constantly and rarely has a free moment
- sateesh 2y ago
  But that is the choice he has made. I guess he can very well afford to have a less hectic schedule or to not work too.
- mattm 2y ago
  He could step anytime he wants to. He's not someone who is going to work to make sure him and his family have food to eat.
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > Zuckerberg doesn't get to do what he wants. He's in meetings constantly and rarely has a free moment This argument of Conclusion: $RichPerson doesn't get to do what they want. Premise: They're under constant obligation to $MoneyMachine is both unsound and invalid. The premise is wrong: at that levels of wealth, the obligation is not real, it's opt-in and you can opt-out at any time. The conclusion is wrong too: At that levels of wealth, the person can do everything anyone else can do in their off-time, and they have much more off-time than the person making the argument anyway. It's a poor argument and should not be made.
  - est31 2y ago
    Zuckerberg is a famous person though, and famous people can't go to places which are sufficiently open to the public without causing major issues. A random billionaire nobody knows might walk around the Colosseum undetected, but try doing that with a profile like Zuckerberg's. Also, there is the personal security concern. If you are rich, you have a lot of ability to pay kidnappers of you and your family. There is the story that shortly after Pichai became Google CEO, he walked around a conference and he barely got recognized, but if you stay in the limelight for long enough, people recognize you. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mathonan/searching-for-google-ceo-sundar-pichai-the-most-powerful-tec https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mathonan/searching-for-...

Aunche 2y ago

> her community prioritized happiness above all else, but everyone she met in the US prioritized making money. I'd bet that she was wealthy relative to the average Greek, but was perceived as "regular" because they are middle class relative to the rest of the west. The wealthy in the the US can prioritize happiness above all else. On average, Greeks works the longest hours in Europe, which is more than the average American. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/04/world/europe/greece-six-day-workweek.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/04/world/europe/greece-six-d...

negus 2y ago

> (ignorant of the history that led to 2008) can you share your version please?

sotix 2y ago
I’m not sure if it’s “my version” or simply a more macro lens at history. Like all history, it’s tricky to pick a starting point, but an easy one is the end of 400 years of Ottoman Turk occupation leading into the 20th century with the Balkan Wars, WWI, and then WWII. Greece successfully fought off Italy in WWII but then was quickly occupied by Nazi Germany for four years. During this time, the Nazis successfully exterminated every Greek Jew. This period created extremely radical political parties that persist to this day. Following WWII, Greece then transitioned into a dictatorship lasting until 1974. Greece presently has the youngest democracy in the EU (50 years old). The past 500 years have been hard on Greece, and the past century was no exception. Modern Greece is a young country with tons of recent scars that have led to corruption and bribery that a healthier nation may not have developed as intensely. My grandfather fled the region with his father in the early twentieth century when the Italian army began regularly hanging people in their town square. It really traumatized him. Anyway, 2008 wasn’t some event that happened in a vacuum. There were many events that shaped the country leading up to it. To simply claim it happened because the Greeks were lazy is itself a lazy take. A very good book on the topic is Inside Hitler’s Greece[0]. [0]: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300089233/ https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300089233/

EasyMark 2y ago

Does this mean Greek Culture is better or simply different? I think that’s the real question. And also better for whom? It’s a judgement call. You can find communities (small towns) that are much closer to this style of thinking than in cities like LA or NYC.

neutronicus 2y ago

If we're sharing anecdotes from Greek-Americans, a research advisor of mine said the biggest change he experienced was getting a driver's license without bribing anyone

aiilns 2y ago

As a Greek, a) lots of people lost their jobs during the crisis, could barely make ends meet or even committed suicide; those people certainly didn't fill the taverns. B) It is true that Greeks won't cut on food/going out as readily as others. People in Greece certainly don't prioritize happiness instead of making money. There was a clear shift where Greeks became more and more unhappy after the (still ongoing) crisis. No1 problem is financial insecurity; as a resident (MD) I work 70-80hrs/week, for less than 7€/hour. Prices are comparable with rich EU countries.

geodel 2y ago
Thanks for giving perspective from an unprivileged position. I have similar stories where people with money create national traditions of being together to celebrate festivals, family events together with friends and families and in general prioritize family over jobs. Poor people seems to have no such traditions they will stay put in whichever town/city they are stuck in their low paying jobs.

emporas 2y ago

If Greeks were lazy, they would not be working towards creating powerful nuclear weapons. Based on my calculations, by 2030, maximum 2035, we will have personal nuclear weapons. By we, i mean millions and billions of people on the planet, including of course Greeks. In general, what an individual is doing with his free time, is no one's business.

4gotunameagain 2y ago
"Greeks ... working towards creating powerful nuclear weapons" Source ? I highly, highly doubt that this is true.
- emporas 2y ago
  Every smart person on the planet works towards nuclear weapons. It's self evident, it doesn't need source. I am talking very about small nukes, cheap, minimal and for personal use as a self defense. Two grams of gold cheap, 1 km evaporation range and 5 km blast. Very minimal, but as soon as millions of people have one, gather a lot of them in one place and you do some serious damage. This lady seriously suggests that millions of Thai's will have their personal nukes, millions of Mongolians or Brazilians will have small nuclear weapons each, but Greeks will not, because Greeks are lazy somehow. I don't know where she reads that stuff, probably some comic series.
  - imtringued 2y ago
    Ok, now let's assume this is correct and a deranged person in my neighborhood threatens to use their nuke, how is the police supposed to react to that? Are they supposed to detonate their personal nuke and destroy the neighbourhood? You haven't thought through any of this.

bookaway 2y ago

I wouldn't start paying attention until you got answers to the same questions for Spain and France.

happymellon 2y ago

> and she said that in Greece, her community prioritized happiness above all else, but everyone she met in the US prioritized making money. Either they were a liar or an idiot. Greece is the worst example as it is highly optimised for money and not social happiness/success. There is a reason that fraud is rampant and no one pays taxes unless they have to.