13 ms·

MPPP – The first 'designer drug' disaster (2023)

160 points by aragonite 2y ago

LoganDark 2y ago
I know "designer drugs" primarily through psychedelic analogues (e.g. 1V-LSD); also, through psychedelic fakes (e.g. NBOMe in place of LSD), which can be fatal. I don't think either one of these are designed to avoid drug tests, but rather to avoid being technically illegal, so that they can be sold over the clearnet to average people. The fakes are designed to be cheaper to manufacture than the real thing, though not designed to be safe. People have died from overdoses of these analogues (and even from regular doses). You are not supposed to be able to overdose on LSD (at the very least, it should not be able to kill you), so this is pretty bad and unexpected when it happens. It's one of the major reasons why reagent testing is so encouraged by harm reduction communities: if you really want to take some substance, it's very important to make sure you know that you're taking the correct substance in the first place; otherwise, even what very limited bets you would've had are already off. The reagent to test for LSD is usually Ehrlich's reagent, but many reagent kits come with multiple reagents so you can not only verify the presence of LSD but also the absence of other adulterants. One can never really be too safe; the wrong drug can have all sorts of undesired effects, all the way up to potential death (or Parkinson's as in the linked article). https://dancesafe.org https://dancesafe.org
- chriscappuccio 2y ago
  This case has absolutely nothing to do with LSD or any psychedelic like drug.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    I'm autistic. Terms like 'designer drug' remind me of existing knowledge that I have regarding that subject. I figured I would share some of that knowledge.
    - notpushkin 2y ago
      I'm pretty sure neurotypical people would also share their knowledge in this case.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        Generally, people who aren't autistic may not understand how autistics associate information with other information, and may get confused when they see me talking about a seemingly unrelated or irrelevant subject in response to seeing a particular piece of information. As far as I could tell that seemed likely to have been the case here, which is why I mentioned my being autistic, because that may help one understand how I happened upon this train of thought under a submission that speaks nothing of psychedelics or LSD whatsoever. (The triggering phrase was 'designer drug', a term which I've also seen used in the context of psychedelics.)
        hoseja 2y ago
        I don't think mentioning you're autistic actually clears that up. Would probably be better to mention the association thought process without leading with the diagnosis.
        LoganDark 2y ago
        It's cleared up separately, immediately after that mention. The thought process appears obvious because it makes logical sense once explained, but people don't always intuitively infer it, if that makes any sense; it's difficult to explain, but I think my comment was perfectly sufficient. I suppose the mention of autism was meant as a qualifier for the information that follows; sort of a "here is why my brain works this way" before the actual "here is how that comment happened the way that it did".
        borski 2y ago
        While I hear what you’re saying and I agree in general, I think what you’re reading is that in this case the logical jump was fairly obvious with or without the mention of your diagnosis. I have ADHD, and it seemed very obvious to me. That said, you can be as open as you want about your diagnosis. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with your comment.
- jojobas 2y ago
  If you really want to take some substance, you're still betting your life to get high. If you don't value your own life, why should I?
  - kerkeslager 2y ago
    Because people's lives are inherently valuable.
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    Animals love to get drunk. Ever see those funny National Geographic videos of monkeys and elephants eating over-ripe fruit and then staggering around, clearly wasted? There's a plausible hypothesis that humans invented agriculture so we could have a more stable source of beer. I drank a boatload of caffeine today. I saw a neighbor vape. We have a long history of using naturally occurring and manufactured drugs. The wide majority of living humans consume psychoactive substances regularly. What's objectively different about our drugs versus theirs? Theirs might be more potent, but in my younger days I made up for that in volume of things like alcohol. Abstinence-only education is an abysmal failure regardless of the subject. "Don't get high" is right up there with "don't have sex" on the list of recommendations that almost no one's going to follow.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      It's worth noting that sex causes the release of endorphins, which are basically endogenous morphine (i.e. opioids). So telling people not to get high would technically imply they shouldn't have sex either, since that "afterglow" is technically analogous to an opioid high... (albeit, a minor one) > Animals love to get drunk. Dolphins. I love dolphins. Getting high is a social activity for them, much like nearly everything else. They will pass a pufferfish around the group and take turns huffing the toxin in order to get high. It's adorable~
      - sharpshadow 2y ago
        The human has opioid[1] and cannabinoid[2] receptors. This is a reason we cultivate plants which contain these substances which have an effect. Plant (nature/naturally grown) derived substances are generally better received by the body than the in laboratory synthesised equivalent. In case of these designer drugs we changing and appending the original naturally occurring molecules. It’s similar to what the pharma industry does to be able to sell with exorbitant prices, changing and appending the working molecule to get fresh patents. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_receptor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_receptor 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  > You are not supposed to be able to overdose on LSD (at the very least, it should not be able to kill you) Not true. LSD raises your body temperature, which can be fatal, especially in the summer. "Just take a cold shower" yeah I was too high to come up with this idea, so I was just lying in my bed being miserably hot. I'm not taking a full tab ever again because it fucks my brain to the point I cannot do basic things to ensure my own survival.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    Interesting. I'm sure I've experienced this effect, but I hadn't noticed that it happens to a greater degree than normal; even without LSD, I've always had a problem with overheating: I have a 12,000 BTU air conditioner pointed directly at me at all times, but still somehow manage to sometimes overheat, usually because the thing automatically turns itself off around 61°F. I had modified my last unit to ignore the temperature completely, but as of yet I can't seem to locate the thermistor in this one. (I found at least one of them, but it's somehow the wrong one. Why are there multiple?!) With that said, it would indeed be a problem for you not to be able to think well enough to perform basic self-care. At the very least, LSD is dehydrating as the body attempts to filter it out as urine, so you'd need to get that out and then drink water (or gatorade or something hydrating). I'm sure dehydration would contribute at least partially to the additional body heat. Anyway, you totally don't need LSD to suffer heat stroke in the summer. All I'd need to do is walk outside and stand there for a while. With that said, it's not exactly like generating additional body heat necessarily kills you as long as you can keep yourself cool somehow. Even if you can't, I wouldn't consider the LSD to have been the source of the death, just the overheating, which is a general failure regardless of how the overheating happened (e.g. panic attack, overexertion, etc.).
    - borski 2y ago
      If the overheating happened as a side effect of the acid, and the person had generally never had issues with overheating, it’s a very small jump to say that acid caused it. That said, I’m less convinced that it raises your core body temp enough to kill you.
- hnick 2y ago
  I've heard of the "technically illegal" thing and find it odd, is that actually true? Over here in Australia I think they just decided it was easier to make them all illegal too, with the schedule saying things like "TETRAHYDROCANNABINOLS and their alkyl homologues" as a catch-all.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    Yes, it's true that LSD analogues such as 1cP-LSD have been technically legal to sell in the United States in the past (and in some parts of Europe, I think). Every time a new analogue gains traction, it gets separately banned by new legislation, but there is no catch-all that bans "all substances that are analogous to LSD or that metabolize into LSD". I believe there is a catch-all that attempts to classify substances by their effects regardless of formula (i.e. any hallucinogenic drug is automatically illegal), but sellers get around that by saying the substance is for research purposes only and not for human consumption; then you simply consume it anyway.
    - temp0826 2y ago
      Isn't this the "catch-all"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act
      - borski 2y ago
        The key line there carrying a lot of weight is “…but only if intended for human consumption.” Market it as “for research only” and that law does not apply.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        That is indeed the catch-all to which I refer, yes. From my comment: > [...] but sellers get around that by saying the substance is for research purposes only and not for human consumption; then you simply consume it anyway.
Mayzie 2y ago
Relevant /r/todayilearned thread from a few hours ago about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1eanz3p/til_a_chemistry_student_accidentally_synthesized/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1eanz3p/til_...
ghotli 2y ago
The part about the experimental surgery with transplanted brain cells helping restore motor function is quite something. Nothing more to add than a wow that worked, huh.
- ggm 2y ago
  This, and other surgery is probably the origins of a classically distasteful eric cartman scene from SouthPark
- wiradikusuma 2y ago
  How does it work, actually? Literally carve a hole, grab a chunk with your hand from the source brain, and chunk it inside the hole and pray? I mean, how does the "wiring" work?
  - alan-hn 2y ago
    Neurons usually handle that automatically. They are able to detect chemical signal and send out projections being axons or dendrites on their own
- permo-w 2y ago
  I was surprised with the lengths that doctors went to for the named patients in this article. for the first guy a new drug was synthesised specifically for him and for the others they had experimental surgery in Sweden. do we have the same level of care for the negative effects of drug addiction nowadays or were these just rich people?
  - Aerroon 2y ago
    It could also be the doctors seeing an opportunity to write a paper, learn or to get renown. If this is shown to work on more cases then their name will be forever attached to the "first to use X to treat Y".
    - anal_reactor 2y ago
robertclaus 2y ago
I wonder if other buyers without symptoms from that dealer were contacted at all. Seems like they could have been quite sick too.
- RCitronsBroker 2y ago
  he made it himself in a uni lab
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    The parent comment is clearly talking about the second half of the article, no? The story continues below the fold.
    - RCitronsBroker 2y ago
      Sorry, my fault.
philipkglass 2y ago
See also: "Future Synthetic Drugs of Abuse" by Donald Cooper of the DEA (1988) https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/future_synthetic/future_synthetic.shtml https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/future_synthetic... It was clear even then that synthetic opioids were going to be significant. Fentanyl (compound 52, Figure 17) is an analgesic of high potency, approximately 300 times that of morphine, which was developed by Janssen in 1962 (Janssen 1962b) and is N-[(2-phenylethyl)-4-piperidyl]-N-phenyl-propanamide. The first CsA (controlled substance analog) of fentanyl came to the attention of law enforcement in late 1979 but was not identified until 1981 (Allen et al. 1981). In the next three years a procession of new fentanyl CsA's appeared in the illicit drug market. The abuse of fentanyl CsA's peaked in 1985 and has since decreased dramatically (Henderson 1987), a phenomena which was the result of DEA successfully terminating the operation of the responsible laboratories. However, the ripple effect is still being felt as international and national meetings have been held to discuss the problems presented by CsA's.
- dendrite9 2y ago
  Wow. The next paragraph is interesting to read from the future: It is the author's opinion that fentanyl CsA's will be back as the future analgesic drugs of abuse. The thoughts behind this statement are that the published synthesis schemes for the fentanyl compounds allow for the use of wide variety of precursors as discovered by the confiscated notes from an anonymous clandestine laboratory that synthesized a drug, based on information presented in two separate volumes of the Journal of Organic Chemistry (...). Also, several fentanyl derivatives have such high potencies that the quantities required to be synthesized are trivial. For instance, carfentanil (...) is approximately 4000 times as potent as heroin and has an extremely favorable therapeutic index (Janssen 1985). Hence, an easy week's work for two chemists could provide 10 kilograms of carfentanil which would be equivalent to 40 metric tons of pure heroin.
  - sharpshadow 2y ago
    Especially now since Afghanistan is back in Taliban hands. According to this statistics[1] Afghanistan was producing the lion share of the world's opium but that must have changed significantly now after the US left the country. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58308494 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58308494
chriscappuccio 2y ago
Hamilton Morris podcast 96 on Barry Kidston talks all about one of the (slightly) well known deaths from the MPTP by-product of botched MPPP synthesis. Barry tried to synthesize MPPP and got Parkinson's-like symptoms.
- sitkack 2y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V83JR2IoI8k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V83JR2IoI8k
standardUser 2y ago
That's terrifying. I took a drug once called 3-MMC that I really enjoyed. I haven't been able to find it since and I don't even know a street name. But by all accounts it was a pleasant high somewhere between cocaine and MDMA with a moderate duration and minimal comedown. But for all I know it could cause irreparable brain damage. I guess it's not too likely, since most recreational drugs have been around a long time and are well-studied, and most derivatives aren't radically different than their mainstream counterparts. And most street drugs are either prescribed medically or being studied for medical use. The real problem is purity, which is a problem caused by the ineffective and insanely expensive US "ban" on drugs. Solve the purity and regulation issue and you end most overdose deaths, most black market violent crime, and, apparently, accidental brain damage.
- morkalork 2y ago
  Taking mephedrone analogues bought off the internet in the 2010s was a real wild west and gamble. There's nothing like reading a review from another buyer about how what they ordered has destroyed their brain beyond repair and becoming paranoid its too late, you've done the same to yourself. Thankfully, for me at least, it was probably some drug induced psychosis on their end. Edit: Does anyone remember a Sky News (or other UK) clip where the journalist bought a kilo of mephedrone online from China and received it? I'd love to find it again. It was definitely the moment when the whole scene jumped the shark into absurdity.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - vasco 2y ago
    Not to be fear mongering but I knew someone who's boyfriend ordered drugs online like this frequently. They lived together and one morning my girlfriend got a call from a friend, saying the guy killed his girlfriend, walked up and down his apartment building for hours during the night while shouting, and finally killed himself at dawn. No history of any mental illness, completely out of the blue. Surprise pills can definitely be a surprise I guess.
kerkeslager 2y ago
Illegal drugs have all sorts of terminology problems. I'm not sure these should be called "designer drugs" because that makes it sound like people are making and taking them to have specific, desirable effects. That's not the case: in most cases, people don't want to be taking these drugs, they want to be taking the illegal drugs that have "better" effects, but are taking legal or grey-legality drugs because drug prohibition keeps them from taking the drugs they actually want to take, which are better-understood and generally safer. I'd prefer to call these grey-market substances "research chemicals" because it's a neutral term without the fearmongering associated with "bath salts" or the romanticizing of "designer drugs". And it's honest: these are chemicals that we are researching and should continue to research, to understand both the positive and negative effects these substances have. It's a dangerous world out there. If you're going to use drugs, please use a test kit. And everyone should obtain and learn how to administer Narcan if you can.
- morkalork 2y ago
  IMO the name "research chemicals" is kind of ruined for me after listening to a bunch of college aged self-proclaimed psychonaughts/shamans ramble on about the science and research they're doing into the essence of humanity or whatever with them. Just call them what they are, grey-market drugs for getting high. There are varnishingly few real researchers actually handling them.
- sharpshadow 2y ago
  I think they called it bath salts to be able to sell it as such and they called it designer drugs to make them attractive. As you say the illegal drugs have the “better” effect and are well understood.
- chriscappuccio 2y ago
  The DEA popularized the term designer drugs in the 80s to refer to drugs designed to evade legal restrictions. That's what it commonly refers to, similarity of effects is secondary to demand.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  I think the term "research chemicals" came out of the necessity to call these substances anything but drugs. They can't legally be sold as drugs, that would require some kind of approval from a regulatory agency, which they obviously don't have. So they call it by a name that don't suggest human consumption. "research chemicals", as if they were reagents, "bath salts", "plant food", etc... often with a "not for human consumption" label. Certainly not "designer drugs", that's a term I generally only see in articles with an "anti drug" stance.
beautifulfreak 2y ago
https://archive.ph/QfrcT https://archive.ph/QfrcT
floam 2y ago
To this day, MPTP is used to simulate Parkinson’s in animal models. https://www.modelorg.com/upload/default/20200410/86db5182a0ba8d98dd1ca2fadc409336.pdf https://www.modelorg.com/upload/default/20200410/86db5182a0b...
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janee 2y ago
Heard about MPTP a while ago, it was no 3 of 6 on this list. Some crazy stuff out there https://youtu.be/5G1eaNkzERE?si=ic71KlAtdVE7Mwey https://youtu.be/5G1eaNkzERE?si=ic71KlAtdVE7Mwey
subroutine 2y ago
NOVA made a film about this called "Case of the Frozen Addict". You can watch here: https://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_474CF2C8A20B4173988486AC4C605A3C https://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_474CF2C8A20B4173988486A...
copywrong2 2y ago
Just give me the real deal, I don't want 1S-LSD. I want LSD. From a pharmacy. Same for other people who are into other drugs.
- sideshowb 2y ago
  Especially our kids. Would be so much safer than them being tempted to buy from some sketchy dude in a night club.
  - koonsolo 2y ago
    Would be much safer if I teach my kids to stay away from smoking and drugs. Worked on me.
    - sideshowb 2y ago
      Good for you. I'm sure all the parents whose children have died taking unknown dosages of unknown substances will take great comfort in your story.
      - koonsolo 2y ago
        That's why it's illegal, no? If it was up to me, smoking would also be phased out. Edit: What bothers me most on these HN discussions is how casual some commenters act of taking drugs. Like it's somehow great. Let's not act as if taking drugs is normal or something everyone should try.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        vladvasiliu 2y ago
        I don't really have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that making something illegal doesn't always work as expected and stop people from consuming it. See: prohibition in the US. So, if the actual goal is harm-reduction for the population at large (and not for what seems to be a small sample who wouldn't care either way since they're not into that), maybe instead of outlawing substances, we should make sure that people don't take random crap that will mess them up even worse than what they were originally looking for. Because it seems that people will continue taking drugs. So maybe, as a society, we should finally accept reality instead of insisting that wishful thinking will somehow work after it has failed miserably for ages.
reify 2y ago
This is the problem with the war on drugs and any sort of drug control or prohibition. Synthetic drugs came about because they fell outside legislation designed to control the different classes of drugs. The police could not prosecute because there was no law to cover synthetic drugs in the early days. I saw the slow increase in the damage caused by synthetic drugs as I worked in Substance misuse as a methadome dispenser. Rather than woking predominantly with heroin addiction, clients were presenting more and more with synthetic substance addictions. For me I would like to see all drugs legalised so that the consumer has a safe way to use drugs of their choice. I used to smoke hash in the 80's from as far away places as Pakistan, Afganistan, lebanon and morocco. Now it is all genetically modified skunk which is 10 times stronger than the proper hash I used to smoke.
- Aerroon 2y ago
  The weirdest thing to me is that drug use is cracked down on so hard that we even have international treaties against them, but something like obesity in some cases is even celebrated (healthy at every size).
  - pas 2y ago
    The steelmanned version of this is that morbidly obese people rarely run up and down the street mugging and robbing people to get their next fix. (And that in aggregate people's tolerance to petty crimes is much less than their tolerance against controlling innocent people's lives.) ... and during the 20th century "performative law and order" was -- how should I put it -- big, as in the 1937 Nazi rally was attended by about a million people, and the 1939 one was called Rally for Peace (but cancelled a few days before and instead of the Rally the Nazis attacked Poland) ... fast-forward a few decades later, still September, but spin the globe a bit, and dear Nancy and Ronald are concerned about drugs! oh my ... while they supplied arms to Iraq ... and Iran at the same time, directly violating a law he personally signed.
    - im3w1l 2y ago
      I think this is basically right, but I would add the suffering of the family as well. Obesity will not lead you to abuse your spouse or children. Obese people can hold down a job. Obese people don't lose custody of their children. The closest analogue, I think, is smoking. It will demonstrably take years of your lifespan and healthspan. It does lead to minor harm of people in your immediate vicinity (2nd hand smoke, those kids probably get fat too).
hexo 2y ago
hmmmm An error occurred during a connection to www.chm.bris.ac.uk. PR_CONNECT_RESET_ERROR
- newzisforsukas 2y ago
  https://archive.ph/QfrcT https://archive.ph/QfrcT
xrtino 2y ago
MPPP features as a plot point in this science fiction story about a benevolent yet unconstrained AGI: https://localroger.com/prime-intellect/mopiall.html https://localroger.com/prime-intellect/mopiall.html Worth a read, it's quite a tale.
- zhengyi13 2y ago
  Ahh, I remember reading that. Trigger/content warning, folks: there are some deeply unpleasant parts to that story. It ends well enough, but the path is pretty dark.
heraldgeezer 2y ago
What a wonderful site and page! Explains it very well. Also stay away from hard drugs like this.
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TomMasz 2y ago
Organic chemistry is amazingly complex. A slight difference in temperature or pH and a chemical turns from a pain killer to a brain tissue destroyer. Not a place for amateurs.
Lockal 2y ago
Not sure why they call it "first" and why they call it "disaster". Some drug addict, coincidentally a hard drug maker, ended his life in a vegetable state - isn't that worth a Darwin Award? If we're going to look at the real tragedies of early times, it's probably best to consider thalidomide. Unlike people who took hard drugs in those days, knowing the consequences, thalidomide users consumed the pills for anxiety, trouble sleeping, "tension" (whatever that means), resulting in more than 10000 children over the same decade born with deformities.
modemodemodem 2y ago
This is roughly what Molly used to poison Riviera (a meperidine addict) in Neuromancer. Gibson mentions N-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) which is mentioned (as 1-methyl...) in the article, as well as the whole substantia nigra thing. I just re-read it last week and was wondering if that drug was a real thing or not.
- throwanem 2y ago
  Kidston was only four years dead when Neuromancer came out, and the vibe I get from Gibson is he was in those days part of some circles where it would have remained a somewhat active topic.
bjgiusg 2y ago
[dead]

160 points by aragonite 2y ago

I know "designer drugs" primarily through psychedelic analogues (e.g. 1V-LSD); also, through psychedelic fakes (e.g. NBOMe in place of LSD), which can be fatal. I don't think either one of these are designed to avoid drug tests, but rather to avoid being technically illegal, so that they can be sold over the clearnet to average people. The fakes are designed to be cheaper to manufacture than the real thing, though not designed to be safe. People have died from overdoses of these analogues (and even from regular doses). You are not supposed to be able to overdose on LSD (at the very least, it should not be able to kill you), so this is pretty bad and unexpected when it happens. It's one of the major reasons why reagent testing is so encouraged by harm reduction communities: if you really want to take some substance, it's very important to make sure you know that you're taking the correct substance in the first place; otherwise, even what very limited bets you would've had are already off. The reagent to test for LSD is usually Ehrlich's reagent, but many reagent kits come with multiple reagents so you can not only verify the presence of LSD but also the absence of other adulterants. One can never really be too safe; the wrong drug can have all sorts of undesired effects, all the way up to potential death (or Parkinson's as in the linked article). https://dancesafe.org https://dancesafe.org

chriscappuccio 2y ago
This case has absolutely nothing to do with LSD or any psychedelic like drug.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  I'm autistic. Terms like 'designer drug' remind me of existing knowledge that I have regarding that subject. I figured I would share some of that knowledge.
  - notpushkin 2y ago
    I'm pretty sure neurotypical people would also share their knowledge in this case.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      Generally, people who aren't autistic may not understand how autistics associate information with other information, and may get confused when they see me talking about a seemingly unrelated or irrelevant subject in response to seeing a particular piece of information. As far as I could tell that seemed likely to have been the case here, which is why I mentioned my being autistic, because that may help one understand how I happened upon this train of thought under a submission that speaks nothing of psychedelics or LSD whatsoever. (The triggering phrase was 'designer drug', a term which I've also seen used in the context of psychedelics.)
      - hoseja 2y ago
        I don't think mentioning you're autistic actually clears that up. Would probably be better to mention the association thought process without leading with the diagnosis.
        LoganDark 2y ago
        It's cleared up separately, immediately after that mention. The thought process appears obvious because it makes logical sense once explained, but people don't always intuitively infer it, if that makes any sense; it's difficult to explain, but I think my comment was perfectly sufficient. I suppose the mention of autism was meant as a qualifier for the information that follows; sort of a "here is why my brain works this way" before the actual "here is how that comment happened the way that it did".
        borski 2y ago
        While I hear what you’re saying and I agree in general, I think what you’re reading is that in this case the logical jump was fairly obvious with or without the mention of your diagnosis. I have ADHD, and it seemed very obvious to me. That said, you can be as open as you want about your diagnosis. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with your comment.
jojobas 2y ago
If you really want to take some substance, you're still betting your life to get high. If you don't value your own life, why should I?
- kerkeslager 2y ago
  Because people's lives are inherently valuable.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  Animals love to get drunk. Ever see those funny National Geographic videos of monkeys and elephants eating over-ripe fruit and then staggering around, clearly wasted? There's a plausible hypothesis that humans invented agriculture so we could have a more stable source of beer. I drank a boatload of caffeine today. I saw a neighbor vape. We have a long history of using naturally occurring and manufactured drugs. The wide majority of living humans consume psychoactive substances regularly. What's objectively different about our drugs versus theirs? Theirs might be more potent, but in my younger days I made up for that in volume of things like alcohol. Abstinence-only education is an abysmal failure regardless of the subject. "Don't get high" is right up there with "don't have sex" on the list of recommendations that almost no one's going to follow.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    It's worth noting that sex causes the release of endorphins, which are basically endogenous morphine (i.e. opioids). So telling people not to get high would technically imply they shouldn't have sex either, since that "afterglow" is technically analogous to an opioid high... (albeit, a minor one) > Animals love to get drunk. Dolphins. I love dolphins. Getting high is a social activity for them, much like nearly everything else. They will pass a pufferfish around the group and take turns huffing the toxin in order to get high. It's adorable~
    - sharpshadow 2y ago
      The human has opioid[1] and cannabinoid[2] receptors. This is a reason we cultivate plants which contain these substances which have an effect. Plant (nature/naturally grown) derived substances are generally better received by the body than the in laboratory synthesised equivalent. In case of these designer drugs we changing and appending the original naturally occurring molecules. It’s similar to what the pharma industry does to be able to sell with exorbitant prices, changing and appending the working molecule to get fresh patents. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_receptor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_receptor 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor
anal_reactor 2y ago
> You are not supposed to be able to overdose on LSD (at the very least, it should not be able to kill you) Not true. LSD raises your body temperature, which can be fatal, especially in the summer. "Just take a cold shower" yeah I was too high to come up with this idea, so I was just lying in my bed being miserably hot. I'm not taking a full tab ever again because it fucks my brain to the point I cannot do basic things to ensure my own survival.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  Interesting. I'm sure I've experienced this effect, but I hadn't noticed that it happens to a greater degree than normal; even without LSD, I've always had a problem with overheating: I have a 12,000 BTU air conditioner pointed directly at me at all times, but still somehow manage to sometimes overheat, usually because the thing automatically turns itself off around 61°F. I had modified my last unit to ignore the temperature completely, but as of yet I can't seem to locate the thermistor in this one. (I found at least one of them, but it's somehow the wrong one. Why are there multiple?!) With that said, it would indeed be a problem for you not to be able to think well enough to perform basic self-care. At the very least, LSD is dehydrating as the body attempts to filter it out as urine, so you'd need to get that out and then drink water (or gatorade or something hydrating). I'm sure dehydration would contribute at least partially to the additional body heat. Anyway, you totally don't need LSD to suffer heat stroke in the summer. All I'd need to do is walk outside and stand there for a while. With that said, it's not exactly like generating additional body heat necessarily kills you as long as you can keep yourself cool somehow. Even if you can't, I wouldn't consider the LSD to have been the source of the death, just the overheating, which is a general failure regardless of how the overheating happened (e.g. panic attack, overexertion, etc.).
  - borski 2y ago
    If the overheating happened as a side effect of the acid, and the person had generally never had issues with overheating, it’s a very small jump to say that acid caused it. That said, I’m less convinced that it raises your core body temp enough to kill you.
hnick 2y ago
I've heard of the "technically illegal" thing and find it odd, is that actually true? Over here in Australia I think they just decided it was easier to make them all illegal too, with the schedule saying things like "TETRAHYDROCANNABINOLS and their alkyl homologues" as a catch-all.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  Yes, it's true that LSD analogues such as 1cP-LSD have been technically legal to sell in the United States in the past (and in some parts of Europe, I think). Every time a new analogue gains traction, it gets separately banned by new legislation, but there is no catch-all that bans "all substances that are analogous to LSD or that metabolize into LSD". I believe there is a catch-all that attempts to classify substances by their effects regardless of formula (i.e. any hallucinogenic drug is automatically illegal), but sellers get around that by saying the substance is for research purposes only and not for human consumption; then you simply consume it anyway.
  - temp0826 2y ago
    Isn't this the "catch-all"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act
    - borski 2y ago
      The key line there carrying a lot of weight is “…but only if intended for human consumption.” Market it as “for research only” and that law does not apply.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      That is indeed the catch-all to which I refer, yes. From my comment: > [...] but sellers get around that by saying the substance is for research purposes only and not for human consumption; then you simply consume it anyway.

Mayzie 2y ago

Relevant /r/todayilearned thread from a few hours ago about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1eanz3p/til_a_chemistry_student_accidentally_synthesized/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1eanz3p/til_...

ghotli 2y ago

The part about the experimental surgery with transplanted brain cells helping restore motor function is quite something. Nothing more to add than a wow that worked, huh.

ggm 2y ago
This, and other surgery is probably the origins of a classically distasteful eric cartman scene from SouthPark
wiradikusuma 2y ago
How does it work, actually? Literally carve a hole, grab a chunk with your hand from the source brain, and chunk it inside the hole and pray? I mean, how does the "wiring" work?
- alan-hn 2y ago
  Neurons usually handle that automatically. They are able to detect chemical signal and send out projections being axons or dendrites on their own
permo-w 2y ago
I was surprised with the lengths that doctors went to for the named patients in this article. for the first guy a new drug was synthesised specifically for him and for the others they had experimental surgery in Sweden. do we have the same level of care for the negative effects of drug addiction nowadays or were these just rich people?
- Aerroon 2y ago
  It could also be the doctors seeing an opportunity to write a paper, learn or to get renown. If this is shown to work on more cases then their name will be forever attached to the "first to use X to treat Y".
  - anal_reactor 2y ago

robertclaus 2y ago

I wonder if other buyers without symptoms from that dealer were contacted at all. Seems like they could have been quite sick too.

RCitronsBroker 2y ago
he made it himself in a uni lab
- Etheryte 2y ago
  The parent comment is clearly talking about the second half of the article, no? The story continues below the fold.
  - RCitronsBroker 2y ago
    Sorry, my fault.

philipkglass 2y ago

See also: "Future Synthetic Drugs of Abuse" by Donald Cooper of the DEA (1988) https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/future_synthetic/future_synthetic.shtml https://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/future_synthetic... It was clear even then that synthetic opioids were going to be significant. Fentanyl (compound 52, Figure 17) is an analgesic of high potency, approximately 300 times that of morphine, which was developed by Janssen in 1962 (Janssen 1962b) and is N-[(2-phenylethyl)-4-piperidyl]-N-phenyl-propanamide. The first CsA (controlled substance analog) of fentanyl came to the attention of law enforcement in late 1979 but was not identified until 1981 (Allen et al. 1981). In the next three years a procession of new fentanyl CsA's appeared in the illicit drug market. The abuse of fentanyl CsA's peaked in 1985 and has since decreased dramatically (Henderson 1987), a phenomena which was the result of DEA successfully terminating the operation of the responsible laboratories. However, the ripple effect is still being felt as international and national meetings have been held to discuss the problems presented by CsA's.

dendrite9 2y ago
Wow. The next paragraph is interesting to read from the future: It is the author's opinion that fentanyl CsA's will be back as the future analgesic drugs of abuse. The thoughts behind this statement are that the published synthesis schemes for the fentanyl compounds allow for the use of wide variety of precursors as discovered by the confiscated notes from an anonymous clandestine laboratory that synthesized a drug, based on information presented in two separate volumes of the Journal of Organic Chemistry (...). Also, several fentanyl derivatives have such high potencies that the quantities required to be synthesized are trivial. For instance, carfentanil (...) is approximately 4000 times as potent as heroin and has an extremely favorable therapeutic index (Janssen 1985). Hence, an easy week's work for two chemists could provide 10 kilograms of carfentanil which would be equivalent to 40 metric tons of pure heroin.
- sharpshadow 2y ago
  Especially now since Afghanistan is back in Taliban hands. According to this statistics[1] Afghanistan was producing the lion share of the world's opium but that must have changed significantly now after the US left the country. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58308494 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58308494

chriscappuccio 2y ago

Hamilton Morris podcast 96 on Barry Kidston talks all about one of the (slightly) well known deaths from the MPTP by-product of botched MPPP synthesis. Barry tried to synthesize MPPP and got Parkinson's-like symptoms.

sitkack 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V83JR2IoI8k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V83JR2IoI8k

standardUser 2y ago

That's terrifying. I took a drug once called 3-MMC that I really enjoyed. I haven't been able to find it since and I don't even know a street name. But by all accounts it was a pleasant high somewhere between cocaine and MDMA with a moderate duration and minimal comedown. But for all I know it could cause irreparable brain damage. I guess it's not too likely, since most recreational drugs have been around a long time and are well-studied, and most derivatives aren't radically different than their mainstream counterparts. And most street drugs are either prescribed medically or being studied for medical use. The real problem is purity, which is a problem caused by the ineffective and insanely expensive US "ban" on drugs. Solve the purity and regulation issue and you end most overdose deaths, most black market violent crime, and, apparently, accidental brain damage.

morkalork 2y ago
Taking mephedrone analogues bought off the internet in the 2010s was a real wild west and gamble. There's nothing like reading a review from another buyer about how what they ordered has destroyed their brain beyond repair and becoming paranoid its too late, you've done the same to yourself. Thankfully, for me at least, it was probably some drug induced psychosis on their end. Edit: Does anyone remember a Sky News (or other UK) clip where the journalist bought a kilo of mephedrone online from China and received it? I'd love to find it again. It was definitely the moment when the whole scene jumped the shark into absurdity.
- deleted 2y ago
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- vasco 2y ago
  Not to be fear mongering but I knew someone who's boyfriend ordered drugs online like this frequently. They lived together and one morning my girlfriend got a call from a friend, saying the guy killed his girlfriend, walked up and down his apartment building for hours during the night while shouting, and finally killed himself at dawn. No history of any mental illness, completely out of the blue. Surprise pills can definitely be a surprise I guess.

kerkeslager 2y ago

Illegal drugs have all sorts of terminology problems. I'm not sure these should be called "designer drugs" because that makes it sound like people are making and taking them to have specific, desirable effects. That's not the case: in most cases, people don't want to be taking these drugs, they want to be taking the illegal drugs that have "better" effects, but are taking legal or grey-legality drugs because drug prohibition keeps them from taking the drugs they actually want to take, which are better-understood and generally safer. I'd prefer to call these grey-market substances "research chemicals" because it's a neutral term without the fearmongering associated with "bath salts" or the romanticizing of "designer drugs". And it's honest: these are chemicals that we are researching and should continue to research, to understand both the positive and negative effects these substances have. It's a dangerous world out there. If you're going to use drugs, please use a test kit. And everyone should obtain and learn how to administer Narcan if you can.

morkalork 2y ago
IMO the name "research chemicals" is kind of ruined for me after listening to a bunch of college aged self-proclaimed psychonaughts/shamans ramble on about the science and research they're doing into the essence of humanity or whatever with them. Just call them what they are, grey-market drugs for getting high. There are varnishingly few real researchers actually handling them.
sharpshadow 2y ago
I think they called it bath salts to be able to sell it as such and they called it designer drugs to make them attractive. As you say the illegal drugs have the “better” effect and are well understood.
chriscappuccio 2y ago
The DEA popularized the term designer drugs in the 80s to refer to drugs designed to evade legal restrictions. That's what it commonly refers to, similarity of effects is secondary to demand.
GuB-42 2y ago
I think the term "research chemicals" came out of the necessity to call these substances anything but drugs. They can't legally be sold as drugs, that would require some kind of approval from a regulatory agency, which they obviously don't have. So they call it by a name that don't suggest human consumption. "research chemicals", as if they were reagents, "bath salts", "plant food", etc... often with a "not for human consumption" label. Certainly not "designer drugs", that's a term I generally only see in articles with an "anti drug" stance.

beautifulfreak 2y ago

https://archive.ph/QfrcT https://archive.ph/QfrcT

floam 2y ago

To this day, MPTP is used to simulate Parkinson’s in animal models. https://www.modelorg.com/upload/default/20200410/86db5182a0ba8d98dd1ca2fadc409336.pdf https://www.modelorg.com/upload/default/20200410/86db5182a0b...

deleted 2y ago

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janee 2y ago

Heard about MPTP a while ago, it was no 3 of 6 on this list. Some crazy stuff out there https://youtu.be/5G1eaNkzERE?si=ic71KlAtdVE7Mwey https://youtu.be/5G1eaNkzERE?si=ic71KlAtdVE7Mwey

subroutine 2y ago

NOVA made a film about this called "Case of the Frozen Addict". You can watch here: https://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_474CF2C8A20B4173988486AC4C605A3C https://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_474CF2C8A20B4173988486A...

copywrong2 2y ago

Just give me the real deal, I don't want 1S-LSD. I want LSD. From a pharmacy. Same for other people who are into other drugs.

sideshowb 2y ago
Especially our kids. Would be so much safer than them being tempted to buy from some sketchy dude in a night club.
- koonsolo 2y ago
  Would be much safer if I teach my kids to stay away from smoking and drugs. Worked on me.
  - sideshowb 2y ago
    Good for you. I'm sure all the parents whose children have died taking unknown dosages of unknown substances will take great comfort in your story.
    - koonsolo 2y ago
      That's why it's illegal, no? If it was up to me, smoking would also be phased out. Edit: What bothers me most on these HN discussions is how casual some commenters act of taking drugs. Like it's somehow great. Let's not act as if taking drugs is normal or something everyone should try.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - vladvasiliu 2y ago
        I don't really have a horse in this race, but it seems to me that making something illegal doesn't always work as expected and stop people from consuming it. See: prohibition in the US. So, if the actual goal is harm-reduction for the population at large (and not for what seems to be a small sample who wouldn't care either way since they're not into that), maybe instead of outlawing substances, we should make sure that people don't take random crap that will mess them up even worse than what they were originally looking for. Because it seems that people will continue taking drugs. So maybe, as a society, we should finally accept reality instead of insisting that wishful thinking will somehow work after it has failed miserably for ages.

reify 2y ago

This is the problem with the war on drugs and any sort of drug control or prohibition. Synthetic drugs came about because they fell outside legislation designed to control the different classes of drugs. The police could not prosecute because there was no law to cover synthetic drugs in the early days. I saw the slow increase in the damage caused by synthetic drugs as I worked in Substance misuse as a methadome dispenser. Rather than woking predominantly with heroin addiction, clients were presenting more and more with synthetic substance addictions. For me I would like to see all drugs legalised so that the consumer has a safe way to use drugs of their choice. I used to smoke hash in the 80's from as far away places as Pakistan, Afganistan, lebanon and morocco. Now it is all genetically modified skunk which is 10 times stronger than the proper hash I used to smoke.

Aerroon 2y ago
The weirdest thing to me is that drug use is cracked down on so hard that we even have international treaties against them, but something like obesity in some cases is even celebrated (healthy at every size).
- pas 2y ago
  The steelmanned version of this is that morbidly obese people rarely run up and down the street mugging and robbing people to get their next fix. (And that in aggregate people's tolerance to petty crimes is much less than their tolerance against controlling innocent people's lives.) ... and during the 20th century "performative law and order" was -- how should I put it -- big, as in the 1937 Nazi rally was attended by about a million people, and the 1939 one was called Rally for Peace (but cancelled a few days before and instead of the Rally the Nazis attacked Poland) ... fast-forward a few decades later, still September, but spin the globe a bit, and dear Nancy and Ronald are concerned about drugs! oh my ... while they supplied arms to Iraq ... and Iran at the same time, directly violating a law he personally signed.
  - im3w1l 2y ago
    I think this is basically right, but I would add the suffering of the family as well. Obesity will not lead you to abuse your spouse or children. Obese people can hold down a job. Obese people don't lose custody of their children. The closest analogue, I think, is smoking. It will demonstrably take years of your lifespan and healthspan. It does lead to minor harm of people in your immediate vicinity (2nd hand smoke, those kids probably get fat too).

hexo 2y ago

hmmmm An error occurred during a connection to www.chm.bris.ac.uk. PR_CONNECT_RESET_ERROR

newzisforsukas 2y ago
https://archive.ph/QfrcT https://archive.ph/QfrcT

xrtino 2y ago

MPPP features as a plot point in this science fiction story about a benevolent yet unconstrained AGI: https://localroger.com/prime-intellect/mopiall.html https://localroger.com/prime-intellect/mopiall.html Worth a read, it's quite a tale.

zhengyi13 2y ago
Ahh, I remember reading that. Trigger/content warning, folks: there are some deeply unpleasant parts to that story. It ends well enough, but the path is pretty dark.

heraldgeezer 2y ago

What a wonderful site and page! Explains it very well. Also stay away from hard drugs like this.

deleted 2y ago

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TomMasz 2y ago

Organic chemistry is amazingly complex. A slight difference in temperature or pH and a chemical turns from a pain killer to a brain tissue destroyer. Not a place for amateurs.

Lockal 2y ago

Not sure why they call it "first" and why they call it "disaster". Some drug addict, coincidentally a hard drug maker, ended his life in a vegetable state - isn't that worth a Darwin Award? If we're going to look at the real tragedies of early times, it's probably best to consider thalidomide. Unlike people who took hard drugs in those days, knowing the consequences, thalidomide users consumed the pills for anxiety, trouble sleeping, "tension" (whatever that means), resulting in more than 10000 children over the same decade born with deformities.

modemodemodem 2y ago

This is roughly what Molly used to poison Riviera (a meperidine addict) in Neuromancer. Gibson mentions N-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP) which is mentioned (as 1-methyl...) in the article, as well as the whole substantia nigra thing. I just re-read it last week and was wondering if that drug was a real thing or not.

throwanem 2y ago
Kidston was only four years dead when Neuromancer came out, and the vibe I get from Gibson is he was in those days part of some circles where it would have remained a somewhat active topic.

bjgiusg 2y ago

[dead]