19 ms·

How to Know When It's Time to Go

354 points by kiyanwang 2y ago

peterldowns 2y ago
I respect the OP's vulnerability and the advice. I've felt like it was "time to go" before, but as a young man I just assumed it was burnout, treated it that way, and got back in the game once I had renewed desire. Right now I feel like I'll never want to stop making things, but that if I were rich enough and good enough at creating in a different medium other than code, I completely understand the desire to walk away from the terminal and never look back. Few things have been as frustrating to me as programming. Yet since few things have been so rewarding, I persist. It's a great article because it's making me think about my own life. I'll keep pondering. Thanks for posting it.
- Aperocky 2y ago
  > walk away from the terminal What do you mean, this is the best part of the job, the part I look forward to most each day.
  - peterldowns 2y ago
    I mean that sometimes I get so sick of the constant problems and churn and breakages and errors and mistakes and bugs and weird behaviors that I feel like doing something completely different. If you never feel that way, I'm very happy for you!
    - Aperocky 2y ago
      It does happen, but I find it overall more preferable than documents, tickets, meetings, meetings and meetings. Spending time in the terminal with vim and shell is healing.
ricc 2y ago
Kinda similar to how Kobe Bryant knew it's time to retire from the game of basketball. He said in an interview (https://youtu.be/Ya8hY0S-8t0?t=54 https://youtu.be/Ya8hY0S-8t0?t=54) that he knew it's time when during his morning meditations, his mind will not drift to basketball anymore.
- joemoon 2y ago
  Thank you, this was a very interesting interview.
- bugthe0ry 2y ago
  What I wonder is how did Kobe know this was a sign that he was done. Why didn't he think he was just burned out and maybe just needed a break before returning to the game? How can you tell when you're burned out vs. just being completely done with it all?
  - ricc 2y ago
    I think because he was already 37 or 38 at that time, and was suffering from injuries, too. There was no point continuing if both his body and mind are not the way they used to be.
    - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
      This sounds about right for most pro sports; few continue as players in their 40's, especially in the higher impact / energy sports like basketball.
      - bugthe0ry 2y ago
        I meant applying this mentality to programming - how can one differentiate between burnout and being done with the field?
        mattgreenrocks 2y ago
        Time and wisdom. I think most devs can delay burnout/leaving the field if they begin viewing programming as a means to an end, e.g. "programming as a way to build their own business," or "using programming knowledge to mentor others," or "using programming knowledge in another domain they're interested in to great effect."
        linearrust 2y ago
Tao3300 2y ago
Right now I'm in this goofy spot where I'm probably walking away from it. Nobody wants backend and API-layer Java devs anymore. They probably need them, but they don't know it in the midst of the AI bubble.
- beacon294 2y ago
  It's actually still super popular at many or most large companies. Not small companies.
  - Tao3300 2y ago
    That's what I'd have thought, but it's looking bleak. Who do you have in mind?
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      Look for corporate jobs outside of California/SV-type places. Financial firms, insurance companies, also universities. You won't be blazing any new trails and you might be shocked by the pay difference but you'll work 9-5 with your weekends free and probably good benefits. You'll have to be able to tolerate some level of Initech-style management but if you just accept that and play along the work pace is pretty relaxed.
      - relaxing 2y ago
        I’ve reached the point where every time I see a comment about “nobody wants to hire X programmers”, in my mind I append “… at hot SV startups” because that must be the only way it’s true.
        Tao3300 2y ago
        Heh, good for you! I can't wait til I'm at that point too.
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
imiric 2y ago
This is a great retrospective. Thanks for sharing. > It's not worth working and being miserable. Agree 100%. I've quit several jobs after the environment becomes more stressful than fun. Over the years my tolerance for BS has lowered, possibly to the detriment of my bank account. But I've never regretted my decision to leave. The weight off my shoulders is priceless. > Age and ability are not correlated. I wonder how subjective this is. Cognitive decline with age is real, but maybe keeping the brain active with programming can help keep it at bay. A study about this would be interesting.
- will1am 2y ago
  To prioritize well-being over enduring a toxic or stressful work environment
- dagss 2y ago
  >> Age and ability are not correlated > ... cognitive decline.. I know this is not the age groups you thought about, but on the topic: I think they ARE correlated, but the other way: At 40 I have had time to get to know so ridiculously much more than someone starting out in their early 20s. And I see its effect very real, people in early 20s (generalizing ofc) can spend so long on things on have seen so many times...or spend more time making lots of bugs and finding them than just writing the code with fewer bugs. Or spend their brain cycles on the "how to code" part of the job, instead of that just being second nature and focusing on the underlying ideas. Or young people may be be competent coders, but completely baffled reading and really grasping underlying ideas in existing codebases (especially this I know I have progressed at with training over the years..) I feel experience can be undervalued in our industry in a way it is not in others. It is valued... but not as much as I feel it should be.. Of course this effects drowns a bit in the noise of all of the programmers like the OP talks about that barely get by, in all age groups. But within the set of skilled coders... from what I have seen, I would always prefer working with the older to the younger to get a project done.. (Ofc there may be a point where this turns. I lack personal experience with coders 20 years older than myself.)
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
Scarblac 2y ago
I started programming at 10 and now I'm 50, and right now it feels like I've reached this point -- it's boring, I have trouble keeping up, I feel the things work lets me work on are not important. Interesting work goes to younger colleagues. The problem is, I have a family and finding fulfilling work that you have no experience in, in this country, at 50, is close to impossible. So for now I consider myself lucky and try to rediscover the fun things in programming.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Similar age point, the problem is not keeping up, is fighting the continuous push to management, which I don't plan to ever do, unless forced by life circunstances. It appears that the only path left for us in many European countries, is to go freelancer, and I vouch for the same problem regarding skills, forget about having Github repos, or open source contributions, if the technology company X is looking for isn't the one we haved used in the last 5 years or so on day job.
  - idostuff 2y ago
    I'm a European in my late forties and have been a freelancer for the last five years but I find it harder and harder to motivate myself to continue working. What really takes all joy out of working as a software engineer these days for me are the endless Scrum ceremonies almost all companies in my area have embraced. In the old days (say until ~7-8 yrs ago) I didn't have to attend very many meetings but of those I had to go to most were useful/necessary. These days I could probably count the useful meetings I attend in a year on one hand but the amount of Scrum-worship-meetings per week requires two hands. The same amount of actual work I could do in a week in the old days would now take several months because it needs to be planned in detail. And no, not any technical detail, but rather discussions on how to divide it into stories but without doing any proper technical analysis and then straight ahead to story point guesstimates, yay! Then after a brief period of actual coding it's stuck in code review for weeks because no one will look at a PR unless prodded with a stick. While I do think that code reviews can some times be beneficial, most of the time they are (in my experience unfortunately) pretty useless. Most comments (and I have to admit I'm guilty to this as well) are more bike-shedding than bug-preventing. Complex bugs are rarely found in code-reviews in my experience. While these are my experiences during the last 7-8 years or so, it's more or less the same on all the half a dozen companies (or so) I've worked for during that period (which is also a very big reason why I've worked on half a dozen companies in that period).
lenkite 2y ago
I really thought this was going to be a post on The Go language when I clicked the link.
- koinedad 2y ago
  I was with you on this
- bxparks 2y ago
  Me too! The problem with Golang is that it has the same name as a common verb instead of a noun ("go" is used as a verb like 99.99% of the time). I remember coming across a thread maybe 10-14 years ago where the Golang creators were asked to change the name of the language. They declined. If I recall, one of the arguments was that the name would naturally become associated with Golang. Here we are in 2024, and the confusion still happens. The TFA blog was great, by the way, even though it was not about about Golang as I had expected.
- divan 2y ago
  Some comments here: "I'm at age XX, thought about quitting, but now am rediscovering fun in programming". Go is a good fit here. I discovered Go around 10 years ago, and it was a point in my career where I was fed up with the overgrowing complexity of the mainstream languages and cultures around them. I was seriously considering switching to other fields. Go has changed that direction 180 degrees.
geraldwhen 2y ago
I make $300K/year. I’ll leave when I’m ready to retire. And if I’m lucky enough to get laid off (around retirement time), that would be a huge windfall to move me toward retirement. Programmers planning to work after 50 are fools.
- gambiting 2y ago
  You're in like, 0.1% of programmers financially. I know living in certain bubbles it feels like everyone makes that kind of money, but it's absolutely not. It's like a lottery winner telling people that if they plan to work over 50 they are fools.
  - damezumari 2y ago
    By freelancing you can save nice nest egg in most places. I did that for 11 years in Europe and now I work because I want to, not because I must. Disclaimer: not consulting anymore, I moved back to startup grind once more because I feel more connected to the work than what you do as a consultant.
    - tra3 2y ago
      Freelancing is another bubble I think. I don’t think most developers have the skills necessary to freelance and/or most enterprises are not setup to work with freelancers.
    - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
      I don't feel like being my own boss. Shrug emoji
  - geraldwhen 2y ago
    Even if you make half that, which is a common offer all over America, you can retire early.
    - gambiting 2y ago
      Americans are their own little bubble again - I'd wager that most of the world's programmers don't live in US. Globally your average programmer will be someone writing utterly boring code making same salary as a teacher, maybe slightly above that if lucky. Happy to be proven wrong, but the whole "If you aren't making 6 figures as a programmer you failed at life" meme needs to go away - it's a tiny tiny sliver of all programmers that actually manage to achieve that.
devjab 2y ago
I’ve been in programming for two decades and one of the things I enjoy about it is that things change. I did my stint in both architecture and management because I thought what you were supposed to do, but I went back to programming because I like programming. I’ve worked on so many different technologies that I’ve probably forgotten more than some people even learn yet I’ve always liked it. I do get how you can burn out, especially on the business side of things. A lot of jobs just aren’t important. The trick is to avoid them if you can and leave them as soon as possible if you can’t. Every non-startup / non-economic boom job comes with some degree of Kafka, and you’re either going to learn to not care about it or go crazy. I’m not sure that is especially unique for programmers though, this seems to be most things. Unless you’re extremely talented at the HR part of organisational politics (which most programmers aren’t) you’re also going to have to build some really stupid stuff during your career because change management is hard. So hard that it’s virtually impossible for talented HR staff to do when the direction is upwards, which it’ll always be for programmers. Again, it’s something you either learn to laugh about or burn out on. The change in technology, however? Isn’t that part of the fun? If it isn’t, is that because you don’t have the time for it? Because if don’t (and a lot of jobs won’t give you this) then you’re frankly in one of those “leave as soon as possible” positions. Even so, niche work rarely dies. The author mentions mainframe work, but mainframe work is still some of the highest paid work in the world because those grey beards who actually know and want to do it are so retired that a lot of them are frankly dead. I’m not sure how you could ever work on mainframes for 40+ years and then not be able to get paid handsomely by banks. Anyway to each their own. It’s a nice perspective, and it offers you a few insights into just how much of a cog in the machine you’re going to be in virtually any job. Even one where you’re extremely well liked and rewarded. I think the best thing I learned from my stint in management is how everyone, and I do mean everyone, is replaceable. It’s just a matter of cost. Which can sound depressing, but it’s also very liberating because it teaches you to not get overly attached to jobs or employers.
- saulpw 2y ago
  Two decades is only half a software career. I've been coding for 40 and it's different. See how you feel in another 20 years. Even in niche domains, almost all software is a massive tangle of unnecessary complexity. At some point it becomes like another game of Magic (The Gathering) with millions of cards and twisty little rules all alike. It's some teenager's idea of fun, but if you take it home to gramma, she doesn't understand why you can't just sit around the table and talk.
hypeatei 2y ago
I recently put in a word for a senior programmer I worked with in a previous job and he got hired. Well, it's really clear he doesn't care anymore and doesn't find anything about software development interesting. Now I'm in a tough spot because he's a major burden and my manager wants to give it some more time but I don't see it working out. I heavily relate to this line in the article: > Some time ago, I knew a programmer with the same number of years of experience as me. Yet he seemed unable to comprehend what was required of him, and I had to review everything he wrote because it rarely worked
- ghaff 2y ago
  It sounds like you're describing two different things though, of course, they can look somewhat similar from the outside. There's unable and there's not caring. I can imagine not having some specific skill sets and I can imagine just not having the interest in putting in the effort and learning what's needed. The results may look somewhat similar but they're different situations.
Joeboy 2y ago
Hopefully people will tell me why I'm wrong, but right now programming is just feeling like a bit of a dead end in general? The demand seems to be for AWS gurus, data analysts, low-code, prompt engineering etc. I'm not against learning new things to stay employable, but the new things that are in demand don't really seem to be programming. I learned a bit of Rust because it's kind of new(ish) and exciting, but apparently there's a massive glut of Rust devs. Whereas 15 years ago I learned Python and my employment prospects rocketed.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  There's two things going on. One is, yes, I think the quality of work mostly sucks all over. But the other is it's a down part of the cycle and there's just a glut of us all, and a bit of disrespect from employers as well. It's been a long time since we had one, and many people either didn't work through one before, or have forgotten. That part will bounce back. In 5 years it'll be a crazy job market again, and having Rust on your resume will be valuable. (To put it in perspective, I learned and wrote Python in 1996, 1997. And I really liked it. But nobody even knew what it was, and nobody would hire for it. I moved on, and lost my taste for dynamically typed languages, and then all the sudden Python was huge, and if I'd stuck with that, it would have been a big thing for me, I guess. I suspect a similar thing will happen with Rust, etc. At least I hope so, since Rust is my day-job :-) )
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Work is work and always has it's plusses and minuses. But, yes, even if the tech cycle isn't terrible at the moment (e.g. dot-bomb nuclear winter) it's definitely down. I somewhat regret effort and money I put in a couple of years ago to get myself setup to do various stuff post "retirement" because, while I haven't exactly been beating the bushes, opportunities haven't been falling off trees either.
- fifilura 2y ago
  What is it that you want to build? I mean if you frown upon AWS gurus, analysts and low code? Programming for the sake of "writing code" is probably going to miss the target. For example "analyst". My take is that is where it all started. Someone looking at numbers and needing computers to help making sense of them.
paulsutter 2y ago
> You probably don't know any retired programmers Ha I know lots of retired programmers. I was one for a while, but like most I really wanted to get back to work
- pcl 2y ago
  How long were you retired for, and what brought you back?
  - paulsutter 2y ago
    5-6 years, then I started another company
boomersboo 2y ago
[flagged]
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Never been so bored and frustrated that you just came in to work, dropped off your laptop, picked up your coffee mug, and walked out without a word?
munchler 2y ago
I’m in my late 50’s, and I still love making software, maybe even more now than when I was younger. What’s happened to me over decades as a professional is that I’ve totally lost any interest in “career” or the large corporate entity that employs me. Once any organization grows beyond about 20 people, it starts to become dysfunctional, so I’ll be retiring the day I can convince my spouse we have enough money. That will give me more time to work on things I care about, including software.
- WWWMMMWWW 2y ago
  Call it the blackjack rule ... once you cross 21 it's a bust.
- latentsea 2y ago
  >Once any organization grows beyond about 20 people, it starts to become dysfunctional I guess if that's the way absolutely everything functions then perhaps dysfunction is actually just function.
  - MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
    A large org is a totally different beast from a small org, and yet they seamlessly transition into each other. So, a large org is dysfunctional when viewed through the lens of a small org. A large org is also dysfunctional when it is run like a small org, as is a small org when it's run like a large org.
    - latentsea 2y ago
      I think people just have unrealistic expectations about humans ability to manage anything. We label things as dysfunctional, yet dysfunction is the norm. I think it gives a slightly warped sense of what the norm is since it implies that things ought to be functioning properly but they aren't. When really it's usually just par for the course.
away271828 2y ago
For me, it was very obvious at the end. Technical but not programming. Felt like I was winding down. Circumstances were such there wasn't a lot of mobility within the company. Was somewhat disappointed that I didn't get a package as part of some layoffs but I assume powers that be didn't want to voluntarily lose headcount. Ended up hanging around for a year effectively working part time. Not sure that was the right idea or not (had lots of vacation which I pretty much all took) but year+ passed by and it was pretty obvious at that point I couldn't drag my feet any longer and didn't have the interest or need to do a job search.
GnarfGnarf 2y ago
I've been happily programming since 1965, and I've been doing C++ since 1995. There is still so much to learn, it's never stopped being fun. However, Apple Notarization may just be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
ralphc 2y ago
I retired in 2017 and sometimes I think I got out at just the right time, or close to it. In the past 7 years we’ve had the pandemic, remote work then the clawback to the office, and so. many. JavaScript frameworks and changes. And now layoffs all over the place and having to keep up with AI to stay relevant, AI and LLMs are changing faster than React and its ilk. Instead I now program in a great language, Elixir, working on projects that I want, and reading books that I’ve been putting off for decades.
- stevage 2y ago
  Huh, that's about the same time I became a full-time freelance frontend dev. I've primarily used Vue that whole time and it's been pretty good. AI has mostly been a nice benefit to - Copilot really makes writing code more pleasant. I haven't really seen any downsides to AI in my work. I'm almost always remote, and mostly like that, too.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > having to keep up with AI to stay relevant This, at least for the time being, seems more a thing that people worry about than a real phenomenon.
ggm 2y ago
I always refer people to the Doris Day performance of Carl Sigman and Herb Madgison's hit song "enjoy yourself, it's later than you think". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxsG9Vcndw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxsG9Vcndw There's also a Guy Lombardo and a Louis Prima version but I like this one. I've been singing this at work for a year or so, trying to give people a gentle hint about my future.
JKCalhoun 2y ago
Retired from Apple a few years ago (at age 57). I was not obsolete. A big company like Apple, there are always things that need taken care of. I assumed with iOS, Swift, etc., maybe the guys on the Cocoa team were obsolete? Of course not. That code is still there, still needs maintaining, interoperability with the new languages, frameworks, etc. I'm more surprised they want to stay on. And that is in fact why I left Apple: the job had changed, the "career" had changed. The engineers were no longer steering the ship. It had been that way when I started in 1995 though. A "team", let's say the graphics team, would figure out what API to revisit, what new ones to add — perhaps how to refactor the entire underlying workflow. The "tech lead" (who would regularly attend Siggraph since we're talking about the graphics team) would make the call as to what got priority. Marketing would come around after the fact to "create a narrative" around all the changes to the OS. I hate to say it, but many, those were the good ole' days. (And let's be clear, in the 90's, Apple's customers were more or less like the engineers, we also loved the machine for the same reasons they did — so we did right by them, made changes they would like because we wanted them too. You can't say that as convincingly for the phone, being a mass consumer device.) Marketing took the reins long ago though — especially as Apple began to succeed with the iPhone (which, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think was an engineer driven project initially — I mean most things were up to that point). I stuck around nonetheless though because there was money to be made and kids still to raise. When the last daughter flew the coop though, so did I.
- zkirill 2y ago
  I want to create a company that is like Apple of the 90's and resurrect the "bicycle for the mind". Is there any chance you would consider mentoring?
  - Sophistifunk 2y ago
    There's plenty of people who want to build that thing, and most of us have a good idea how it probably should be, at least at first. The problem isn't building it, it's funding it without selling out the user.
    - 2y ago
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
> I still write code every day in support of my generative art practice. The code is much more complex than anything I did previously, and much of it does not have anyone else doing it, so it's a lot of invention, which is fun. Can relate. I've been "retired," since I was 55, and SV was nice enough to let me know that I was too old to play in their pool. Pissed me off, something fierce, but, in the long run, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. I could have made millions -for other people- maybe for me, as well, but I have never really been interested in that kind of thing. The work and the technology has always fascinated me. I've found that what I really enjoy, is making UI tools for nontechnical folks. That's what I do, these days. I make free software for folks that can't afford the kind of stuff I do.
iftheshoefitss 2y ago
[dead]
black_13 2y ago
[dead]
rr808 2y ago
I'm still going, but the biggest issue I'm finding is that knowledge keeps turning over. I have made big efforts in the past to learn technologies, languages and libraries that became obsolete then starting all over again. Software Engineering now is completely different to what I started with. I have more Project experience but technically I dont know much more about Cloud, JS frameworks, modern DBs etc than someone 30 years old. Ironically my main advantage seems to be I can focus more and work longer hours than younger people who seem to value WLB much more than we used to.
begueradj 2y ago
Interesting insights. Thank you for sharing.
swaggyBoatswain 2y ago
I've only been programming for 6 years. I don't feel the same burning passion as I did when I first started coding. I'm a frontend developer, but I've made a lot of lateral switches into DevOps, backend, leadership, etc but I prefer just building what I'm good at though But I'm basically semi-retired to a degree in my field. I'm doing the bare minimal to get by at this point. I ultimately would love to quit some day, and pivot into a different career, not entirely related to coding. I'm not at that point yet financially though, and am spending energy elsewhere I would love to start a non-coding related business one day though.
jasonkester 2y ago
I consider myself retired, but I have a different take on the concept. I like programming computers, but just not 2000 hour a year. I can afford not to do that, so I don't. I hit a point in my 30s where I could sock away a year's worth of savings in 3-6 months of contracting, so that's pretty much where my full-time phase ended. I came back "out of retirement" when the first kid was born and worked 5 years semi-fulltime to save up enough for houses, college, etc., ramping down to 4 day weeks for the last few years because I really value my free time. Since then, I've done the odd 3-6 month/year stint (since programming and working on a good team that can ship is still pretty fun.) Recently I've been doing that part time, 2-3 days a week, a few months a year. I don't know what most people would call my situation. I call it Retired as I want to be at any given moment. I expect I'll keep doing it for the dozen-odd years between now and when I hit "Retirement Age". But maybe not. It's almost more of a hobby at this point. I guess the point is that it seems like a silly idea to do something all day every day for most of your life, then suddenly drop it completely. If it was fun, do more of it. But on your own terms, and only enough that it's still fun.
- MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
  Your story resonates with me. How did you get into contracting?
swiftcoder 2y ago
> They couldn't comprehend why anyone would retire. One of them, whom I had worked for for two of those jobs and always made his life easier, never spoke to me again or even said goodbye. If I had a nickel for every leader I've worked for who didn't know when it was time to go... I'd have 3 nickels, which is still a surprising amount
marcyb5st 2y ago
I am repurposing the life lesson my grandfather imparted to me before passing. It was meant about one's sex life, but for me it's applicable also here: "If the struggles outweighs the pleasure you should stop doing it".
- shdh 2y ago
  > "If the struggles outweighs the pleasure you should stop doing it". Kind of bleak when it comes to romantic relationships
jongjong 2y ago
I'm nostalgic about the good old days prior to 2016 when every technology change meant improvement. Nowadays, tech doesn't change as much, but when it does, it's for the worse. It's been a challenge for me to adapt to the new reality of coding as a game of busy-work and lock-in through complexity. It has become a bit of a theatre for me, unfortunately. I know I could do something in a way that's 100x more efficient but it would negatively impact my job security so no thanks. Also, if I do the right thing, taking all the risk upon myself, nobody will appreciate. I'll stick to inefficient popular tools and methodologies. I'll play the game of Whac-a-mole... Like a bad gardner who pulls the weeds out by the leaves and leaves the roots behind. That's the smart move. I tried the other approach, doing my very best, outperfoming and it couldn't have worked out worse. The manager class feels nothing but contempt for people who outperform. "Good boy! Here, have a pat on the back... Sucker."
corpMaverick 2y ago
I have been programming professionally since 1989. I think my strength is to find straight forward solutions where you can focus on delivering value reliably. But now days I feel that are so many smart people jumping from project to project and leaving mountains of technical debt behind. We spend a lot time managing accidental complexity and I no longer enjoy my job like I used to.
t43562 2y ago
Echoing some other posts a bit: my problem is that I see silly things happening over and over again and I find that telling people doesn't help. Every generation appears to have to learn the same lessons again the hard way. It's a bit depressing. I made some of these mistakes. I didn't have anyone to help me avoid them. Now I can help but .... I cannot help. Only after the balls up and even then often not.
funmi 2y ago
Possibly tangential, but this article and some of the discussion here reminded me of this HN thread from 2020: "Ask HN: Former software engineers, what are you doing now?" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23951850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23951850 A former boss of mine retired early once he decided he was done with the politics required to navigate his work. He fully unplugged from corporate life and got comfortable delving into his passions... cycling, woodworking (so much woodworking), etc. He seemed to be having a blast from what I could see. I recently caught up with him, and it turned out after about a year off, he'd just accepted a job at a fintech that his former boss reached out about. I guess for him it was time to go from that specific job but maybe not quite from engineering in general.
gregfjohnson 2y ago
I turn 70 tomorrow, and have been programming for about 53 years. Started a new job about six months ago. I immensely enjoy banging out the code every day. It still feels like a guilty pleasure! "Shouldn't I be doing homework right now rather than creating 3-D worlds algorithmically?" My first language was APL, which I learned in a college computer science course. This hard-wired me to think in functional terms; I personally think Iverson and Dijkstra were saying the same thing, but Iverson said it better: reason about your code from an "outside of time" perspective rather than mentally imitating the fetch-execute cycle of the machine. I view software development as a form of discrete mathematics; inductive reasoning for sequential blocks of code, Pnueli-style temporal logic for concurrent and parallel code. I've learned from some wonderful people how powerful it can be when a team likes each other and gets into a collective flow state. It is a bit like a mental version of quantum entanglement, and it is a very satisfying and meaningful thing when you get there. I've benefited from friends who helped me get that next job, and I've helped friends get their next jobs. About 20 years ago I made a switch to medical device software development. That is a domain that requires dedication to learn relevant mathematics, it is not going to go away, and you become a valued commodity when you have specialized skills and a talent pool that is not too large. And, you get to do things like visit your grandchildren in a NICU and see neonatal ventilators that you helped develop. So, I've been lucky, being able to play all day and do something I love! There are a million different paths through the space of software development; I've tended to traverse the space using the "what would be fun to goof around with on a Saturday" metric.
fennecbutt 2y ago
I thought this was going to be about Go the language. Damn title case

354 points by kiyanwang 2y ago

I respect the OP's vulnerability and the advice. I've felt like it was "time to go" before, but as a young man I just assumed it was burnout, treated it that way, and got back in the game once I had renewed desire. Right now I feel like I'll never want to stop making things, but that if I were rich enough and good enough at creating in a different medium other than code, I completely understand the desire to walk away from the terminal and never look back. Few things have been as frustrating to me as programming. Yet since few things have been so rewarding, I persist. It's a great article because it's making me think about my own life. I'll keep pondering. Thanks for posting it.

Aperocky 2y ago
> walk away from the terminal What do you mean, this is the best part of the job, the part I look forward to most each day.
- peterldowns 2y ago
  I mean that sometimes I get so sick of the constant problems and churn and breakages and errors and mistakes and bugs and weird behaviors that I feel like doing something completely different. If you never feel that way, I'm very happy for you!
  - Aperocky 2y ago
    It does happen, but I find it overall more preferable than documents, tickets, meetings, meetings and meetings. Spending time in the terminal with vim and shell is healing.

ricc 2y ago

Kinda similar to how Kobe Bryant knew it's time to retire from the game of basketball. He said in an interview (https://youtu.be/Ya8hY0S-8t0?t=54 https://youtu.be/Ya8hY0S-8t0?t=54) that he knew it's time when during his morning meditations, his mind will not drift to basketball anymore.

joemoon 2y ago
Thank you, this was a very interesting interview.
bugthe0ry 2y ago
What I wonder is how did Kobe know this was a sign that he was done. Why didn't he think he was just burned out and maybe just needed a break before returning to the game? How can you tell when you're burned out vs. just being completely done with it all?
- ricc 2y ago
  I think because he was already 37 or 38 at that time, and was suffering from injuries, too. There was no point continuing if both his body and mind are not the way they used to be.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    This sounds about right for most pro sports; few continue as players in their 40's, especially in the higher impact / energy sports like basketball.
    - bugthe0ry 2y ago
      I meant applying this mentality to programming - how can one differentiate between burnout and being done with the field?
      - mattgreenrocks 2y ago
        Time and wisdom. I think most devs can delay burnout/leaving the field if they begin viewing programming as a means to an end, e.g. "programming as a way to build their own business," or "using programming knowledge to mentor others," or "using programming knowledge in another domain they're interested in to great effect."
      - linearrust 2y ago

Tao3300 2y ago

Right now I'm in this goofy spot where I'm probably walking away from it. Nobody wants backend and API-layer Java devs anymore. They probably need them, but they don't know it in the midst of the AI bubble.

beacon294 2y ago
It's actually still super popular at many or most large companies. Not small companies.
- Tao3300 2y ago
  That's what I'd have thought, but it's looking bleak. Who do you have in mind?
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Look for corporate jobs outside of California/SV-type places. Financial firms, insurance companies, also universities. You won't be blazing any new trails and you might be shocked by the pay difference but you'll work 9-5 with your weekends free and probably good benefits. You'll have to be able to tolerate some level of Initech-style management but if you just accept that and play along the work pace is pretty relaxed.
    - relaxing 2y ago
      I’ve reached the point where every time I see a comment about “nobody wants to hire X programmers”, in my mind I append “… at hot SV startups” because that must be the only way it’s true.
      - Tao3300 2y ago
        Heh, good for you! I can't wait til I'm at that point too.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago

imiric 2y ago

This is a great retrospective. Thanks for sharing. > It's not worth working and being miserable. Agree 100%. I've quit several jobs after the environment becomes more stressful than fun. Over the years my tolerance for BS has lowered, possibly to the detriment of my bank account. But I've never regretted my decision to leave. The weight off my shoulders is priceless. > Age and ability are not correlated. I wonder how subjective this is. Cognitive decline with age is real, but maybe keeping the brain active with programming can help keep it at bay. A study about this would be interesting.

will1am 2y ago
To prioritize well-being over enduring a toxic or stressful work environment
dagss 2y ago
>> Age and ability are not correlated > ... cognitive decline.. I know this is not the age groups you thought about, but on the topic: I think they ARE correlated, but the other way: At 40 I have had time to get to know so ridiculously much more than someone starting out in their early 20s. And I see its effect very real, people in early 20s (generalizing ofc) can spend so long on things on have seen so many times...or spend more time making lots of bugs and finding them than just writing the code with fewer bugs. Or spend their brain cycles on the "how to code" part of the job, instead of that just being second nature and focusing on the underlying ideas. Or young people may be be competent coders, but completely baffled reading and really grasping underlying ideas in existing codebases (especially this I know I have progressed at with training over the years..) I feel experience can be undervalued in our industry in a way it is not in others. It is valued... but not as much as I feel it should be.. Of course this effects drowns a bit in the noise of all of the programmers like the OP talks about that barely get by, in all age groups. But within the set of skilled coders... from what I have seen, I would always prefer working with the older to the younger to get a project done.. (Ofc there may be a point where this turns. I lack personal experience with coders 20 years older than myself.)
- anal_reactor 2y ago

Scarblac 2y ago

I started programming at 10 and now I'm 50, and right now it feels like I've reached this point -- it's boring, I have trouble keeping up, I feel the things work lets me work on are not important. Interesting work goes to younger colleagues. The problem is, I have a family and finding fulfilling work that you have no experience in, in this country, at 50, is close to impossible. So for now I consider myself lucky and try to rediscover the fun things in programming.

pjmlp 2y ago
Similar age point, the problem is not keeping up, is fighting the continuous push to management, which I don't plan to ever do, unless forced by life circunstances. It appears that the only path left for us in many European countries, is to go freelancer, and I vouch for the same problem regarding skills, forget about having Github repos, or open source contributions, if the technology company X is looking for isn't the one we haved used in the last 5 years or so on day job.
- idostuff 2y ago
  I'm a European in my late forties and have been a freelancer for the last five years but I find it harder and harder to motivate myself to continue working. What really takes all joy out of working as a software engineer these days for me are the endless Scrum ceremonies almost all companies in my area have embraced. In the old days (say until ~7-8 yrs ago) I didn't have to attend very many meetings but of those I had to go to most were useful/necessary. These days I could probably count the useful meetings I attend in a year on one hand but the amount of Scrum-worship-meetings per week requires two hands. The same amount of actual work I could do in a week in the old days would now take several months because it needs to be planned in detail. And no, not any technical detail, but rather discussions on how to divide it into stories but without doing any proper technical analysis and then straight ahead to story point guesstimates, yay! Then after a brief period of actual coding it's stuck in code review for weeks because no one will look at a PR unless prodded with a stick. While I do think that code reviews can some times be beneficial, most of the time they are (in my experience unfortunately) pretty useless. Most comments (and I have to admit I'm guilty to this as well) are more bike-shedding than bug-preventing. Complex bugs are rarely found in code-reviews in my experience. While these are my experiences during the last 7-8 years or so, it's more or less the same on all the half a dozen companies (or so) I've worked for during that period (which is also a very big reason why I've worked on half a dozen companies in that period).

lenkite 2y ago

I really thought this was going to be a post on The Go language when I clicked the link.

koinedad 2y ago
I was with you on this
bxparks 2y ago
Me too! The problem with Golang is that it has the same name as a common verb instead of a noun ("go" is used as a verb like 99.99% of the time). I remember coming across a thread maybe 10-14 years ago where the Golang creators were asked to change the name of the language. They declined. If I recall, one of the arguments was that the name would naturally become associated with Golang. Here we are in 2024, and the confusion still happens. The TFA blog was great, by the way, even though it was not about about Golang as I had expected.
divan 2y ago
Some comments here: "I'm at age XX, thought about quitting, but now am rediscovering fun in programming". Go is a good fit here. I discovered Go around 10 years ago, and it was a point in my career where I was fed up with the overgrowing complexity of the mainstream languages and cultures around them. I was seriously considering switching to other fields. Go has changed that direction 180 degrees.

geraldwhen 2y ago

I make $300K/year. I’ll leave when I’m ready to retire. And if I’m lucky enough to get laid off (around retirement time), that would be a huge windfall to move me toward retirement. Programmers planning to work after 50 are fools.

gambiting 2y ago
You're in like, 0.1% of programmers financially. I know living in certain bubbles it feels like everyone makes that kind of money, but it's absolutely not. It's like a lottery winner telling people that if they plan to work over 50 they are fools.
- damezumari 2y ago
  By freelancing you can save nice nest egg in most places. I did that for 11 years in Europe and now I work because I want to, not because I must. Disclaimer: not consulting anymore, I moved back to startup grind once more because I feel more connected to the work than what you do as a consultant.
  - tra3 2y ago
    Freelancing is another bubble I think. I don’t think most developers have the skills necessary to freelance and/or most enterprises are not setup to work with freelancers.
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
    I don't feel like being my own boss. Shrug emoji
- geraldwhen 2y ago
  Even if you make half that, which is a common offer all over America, you can retire early.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    Americans are their own little bubble again - I'd wager that most of the world's programmers don't live in US. Globally your average programmer will be someone writing utterly boring code making same salary as a teacher, maybe slightly above that if lucky. Happy to be proven wrong, but the whole "If you aren't making 6 figures as a programmer you failed at life" meme needs to go away - it's a tiny tiny sliver of all programmers that actually manage to achieve that.

devjab 2y ago

I’ve been in programming for two decades and one of the things I enjoy about it is that things change. I did my stint in both architecture and management because I thought what you were supposed to do, but I went back to programming because I like programming. I’ve worked on so many different technologies that I’ve probably forgotten more than some people even learn yet I’ve always liked it. I do get how you can burn out, especially on the business side of things. A lot of jobs just aren’t important. The trick is to avoid them if you can and leave them as soon as possible if you can’t. Every non-startup / non-economic boom job comes with some degree of Kafka, and you’re either going to learn to not care about it or go crazy. I’m not sure that is especially unique for programmers though, this seems to be most things. Unless you’re extremely talented at the HR part of organisational politics (which most programmers aren’t) you’re also going to have to build some really stupid stuff during your career because change management is hard. So hard that it’s virtually impossible for talented HR staff to do when the direction is upwards, which it’ll always be for programmers. Again, it’s something you either learn to laugh about or burn out on. The change in technology, however? Isn’t that part of the fun? If it isn’t, is that because you don’t have the time for it? Because if don’t (and a lot of jobs won’t give you this) then you’re frankly in one of those “leave as soon as possible” positions. Even so, niche work rarely dies. The author mentions mainframe work, but mainframe work is still some of the highest paid work in the world because those grey beards who actually know and want to do it are so retired that a lot of them are frankly dead. I’m not sure how you could ever work on mainframes for 40+ years and then not be able to get paid handsomely by banks. Anyway to each their own. It’s a nice perspective, and it offers you a few insights into just how much of a cog in the machine you’re going to be in virtually any job. Even one where you’re extremely well liked and rewarded. I think the best thing I learned from my stint in management is how everyone, and I do mean everyone, is replaceable. It’s just a matter of cost. Which can sound depressing, but it’s also very liberating because it teaches you to not get overly attached to jobs or employers.

saulpw 2y ago
Two decades is only half a software career. I've been coding for 40 and it's different. See how you feel in another 20 years. Even in niche domains, almost all software is a massive tangle of unnecessary complexity. At some point it becomes like another game of Magic (The Gathering) with millions of cards and twisty little rules all alike. It's some teenager's idea of fun, but if you take it home to gramma, she doesn't understand why you can't just sit around the table and talk.

hypeatei 2y ago

I recently put in a word for a senior programmer I worked with in a previous job and he got hired. Well, it's really clear he doesn't care anymore and doesn't find anything about software development interesting. Now I'm in a tough spot because he's a major burden and my manager wants to give it some more time but I don't see it working out. I heavily relate to this line in the article: > Some time ago, I knew a programmer with the same number of years of experience as me. Yet he seemed unable to comprehend what was required of him, and I had to review everything he wrote because it rarely worked

ghaff 2y ago
It sounds like you're describing two different things though, of course, they can look somewhat similar from the outside. There's unable and there's not caring. I can imagine not having some specific skill sets and I can imagine just not having the interest in putting in the effort and learning what's needed. The results may look somewhat similar but they're different situations.

Joeboy 2y ago

Hopefully people will tell me why I'm wrong, but right now programming is just feeling like a bit of a dead end in general? The demand seems to be for AWS gurus, data analysts, low-code, prompt engineering etc. I'm not against learning new things to stay employable, but the new things that are in demand don't really seem to be programming. I learned a bit of Rust because it's kind of new(ish) and exciting, but apparently there's a massive glut of Rust devs. Whereas 15 years ago I learned Python and my employment prospects rocketed.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
There's two things going on. One is, yes, I think the quality of work mostly sucks all over. But the other is it's a down part of the cycle and there's just a glut of us all, and a bit of disrespect from employers as well. It's been a long time since we had one, and many people either didn't work through one before, or have forgotten. That part will bounce back. In 5 years it'll be a crazy job market again, and having Rust on your resume will be valuable. (To put it in perspective, I learned and wrote Python in 1996, 1997. And I really liked it. But nobody even knew what it was, and nobody would hire for it. I moved on, and lost my taste for dynamically typed languages, and then all the sudden Python was huge, and if I'd stuck with that, it would have been a big thing for me, I guess. I suspect a similar thing will happen with Rust, etc. At least I hope so, since Rust is my day-job :-) )
- ghaff 2y ago
  Work is work and always has it's plusses and minuses. But, yes, even if the tech cycle isn't terrible at the moment (e.g. dot-bomb nuclear winter) it's definitely down. I somewhat regret effort and money I put in a couple of years ago to get myself setup to do various stuff post "retirement" because, while I haven't exactly been beating the bushes, opportunities haven't been falling off trees either.
fifilura 2y ago
What is it that you want to build? I mean if you frown upon AWS gurus, analysts and low code? Programming for the sake of "writing code" is probably going to miss the target. For example "analyst". My take is that is where it all started. Someone looking at numbers and needing computers to help making sense of them.

paulsutter 2y ago

> You probably don't know any retired programmers Ha I know lots of retired programmers. I was one for a while, but like most I really wanted to get back to work

pcl 2y ago
How long were you retired for, and what brought you back?
- paulsutter 2y ago
  5-6 years, then I started another company

boomersboo 2y ago

[flagged]

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
Never been so bored and frustrated that you just came in to work, dropped off your laptop, picked up your coffee mug, and walked out without a word?

munchler 2y ago

I’m in my late 50’s, and I still love making software, maybe even more now than when I was younger. What’s happened to me over decades as a professional is that I’ve totally lost any interest in “career” or the large corporate entity that employs me. Once any organization grows beyond about 20 people, it starts to become dysfunctional, so I’ll be retiring the day I can convince my spouse we have enough money. That will give me more time to work on things I care about, including software.

WWWMMMWWW 2y ago
Call it the blackjack rule ... once you cross 21 it's a bust.
latentsea 2y ago
>Once any organization grows beyond about 20 people, it starts to become dysfunctional I guess if that's the way absolutely everything functions then perhaps dysfunction is actually just function.
- MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
  A large org is a totally different beast from a small org, and yet they seamlessly transition into each other. So, a large org is dysfunctional when viewed through the lens of a small org. A large org is also dysfunctional when it is run like a small org, as is a small org when it's run like a large org.
  - latentsea 2y ago
    I think people just have unrealistic expectations about humans ability to manage anything. We label things as dysfunctional, yet dysfunction is the norm. I think it gives a slightly warped sense of what the norm is since it implies that things ought to be functioning properly but they aren't. When really it's usually just par for the course.

away271828 2y ago

For me, it was very obvious at the end. Technical but not programming. Felt like I was winding down. Circumstances were such there wasn't a lot of mobility within the company. Was somewhat disappointed that I didn't get a package as part of some layoffs but I assume powers that be didn't want to voluntarily lose headcount. Ended up hanging around for a year effectively working part time. Not sure that was the right idea or not (had lots of vacation which I pretty much all took) but year+ passed by and it was pretty obvious at that point I couldn't drag my feet any longer and didn't have the interest or need to do a job search.

GnarfGnarf 2y ago

I've been happily programming since 1965, and I've been doing C++ since 1995. There is still so much to learn, it's never stopped being fun. However, Apple Notarization may just be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

ralphc 2y ago

I retired in 2017 and sometimes I think I got out at just the right time, or close to it. In the past 7 years we’ve had the pandemic, remote work then the clawback to the office, and so. many. JavaScript frameworks and changes. And now layoffs all over the place and having to keep up with AI to stay relevant, AI and LLMs are changing faster than React and its ilk. Instead I now program in a great language, Elixir, working on projects that I want, and reading books that I’ve been putting off for decades.

stevage 2y ago
Huh, that's about the same time I became a full-time freelance frontend dev. I've primarily used Vue that whole time and it's been pretty good. AI has mostly been a nice benefit to - Copilot really makes writing code more pleasant. I haven't really seen any downsides to AI in my work. I'm almost always remote, and mostly like that, too.
rsynnott 2y ago
> having to keep up with AI to stay relevant This, at least for the time being, seems more a thing that people worry about than a real phenomenon.

ggm 2y ago

I always refer people to the Doris Day performance of Carl Sigman and Herb Madgison's hit song "enjoy yourself, it's later than you think". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxsG9Vcndw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxsG9Vcndw There's also a Guy Lombardo and a Louis Prima version but I like this one. I've been singing this at work for a year or so, trying to give people a gentle hint about my future.

JKCalhoun 2y ago

Retired from Apple a few years ago (at age 57). I was not obsolete. A big company like Apple, there are always things that need taken care of. I assumed with iOS, Swift, etc., maybe the guys on the Cocoa team were obsolete? Of course not. That code is still there, still needs maintaining, interoperability with the new languages, frameworks, etc. I'm more surprised they want to stay on. And that is in fact why I left Apple: the job had changed, the "career" had changed. The engineers were no longer steering the ship. It had been that way when I started in 1995 though. A "team", let's say the graphics team, would figure out what API to revisit, what new ones to add — perhaps how to refactor the entire underlying workflow. The "tech lead" (who would regularly attend Siggraph since we're talking about the graphics team) would make the call as to what got priority. Marketing would come around after the fact to "create a narrative" around all the changes to the OS. I hate to say it, but many, those were the good ole' days. (And let's be clear, in the 90's, Apple's customers were more or less like the engineers, we also loved the machine for the same reasons they did — so we did right by them, made changes they would like because we wanted them too. You can't say that as convincingly for the phone, being a mass consumer device.) Marketing took the reins long ago though — especially as Apple began to succeed with the iPhone (which, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think was an engineer driven project initially — I mean most things were up to that point). I stuck around nonetheless though because there was money to be made and kids still to raise. When the last daughter flew the coop though, so did I.

zkirill 2y ago
I want to create a company that is like Apple of the 90's and resurrect the "bicycle for the mind". Is there any chance you would consider mentoring?
- Sophistifunk 2y ago
  There's plenty of people who want to build that thing, and most of us have a good idea how it probably should be, at least at first. The problem isn't building it, it's funding it without selling out the user.
  - 2y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

> I still write code every day in support of my generative art practice. The code is much more complex than anything I did previously, and much of it does not have anyone else doing it, so it's a lot of invention, which is fun. Can relate. I've been "retired," since I was 55, and SV was nice enough to let me know that I was too old to play in their pool. Pissed me off, something fierce, but, in the long run, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. I could have made millions -for other people- maybe for me, as well, but I have never really been interested in that kind of thing. The work and the technology has always fascinated me. I've found that what I really enjoy, is making UI tools for nontechnical folks. That's what I do, these days. I make free software for folks that can't afford the kind of stuff I do.

iftheshoefitss 2y ago

[dead]

black_13 2y ago

[dead]

rr808 2y ago

I'm still going, but the biggest issue I'm finding is that knowledge keeps turning over. I have made big efforts in the past to learn technologies, languages and libraries that became obsolete then starting all over again. Software Engineering now is completely different to what I started with. I have more Project experience but technically I dont know much more about Cloud, JS frameworks, modern DBs etc than someone 30 years old. Ironically my main advantage seems to be I can focus more and work longer hours than younger people who seem to value WLB much more than we used to.

begueradj 2y ago

Interesting insights. Thank you for sharing.

swaggyBoatswain 2y ago

I've only been programming for 6 years. I don't feel the same burning passion as I did when I first started coding. I'm a frontend developer, but I've made a lot of lateral switches into DevOps, backend, leadership, etc but I prefer just building what I'm good at though But I'm basically semi-retired to a degree in my field. I'm doing the bare minimal to get by at this point. I ultimately would love to quit some day, and pivot into a different career, not entirely related to coding. I'm not at that point yet financially though, and am spending energy elsewhere I would love to start a non-coding related business one day though.

jasonkester 2y ago

I consider myself retired, but I have a different take on the concept. I like programming computers, but just not 2000 hour a year. I can afford not to do that, so I don't. I hit a point in my 30s where I could sock away a year's worth of savings in 3-6 months of contracting, so that's pretty much where my full-time phase ended. I came back "out of retirement" when the first kid was born and worked 5 years semi-fulltime to save up enough for houses, college, etc., ramping down to 4 day weeks for the last few years because I really value my free time. Since then, I've done the odd 3-6 month/year stint (since programming and working on a good team that can ship is still pretty fun.) Recently I've been doing that part time, 2-3 days a week, a few months a year. I don't know what most people would call my situation. I call it Retired as I want to be at any given moment. I expect I'll keep doing it for the dozen-odd years between now and when I hit "Retirement Age". But maybe not. It's almost more of a hobby at this point. I guess the point is that it seems like a silly idea to do something all day every day for most of your life, then suddenly drop it completely. If it was fun, do more of it. But on your own terms, and only enough that it's still fun.

MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
Your story resonates with me. How did you get into contracting?

swiftcoder 2y ago

> They couldn't comprehend why anyone would retire. One of them, whom I had worked for for two of those jobs and always made his life easier, never spoke to me again or even said goodbye. If I had a nickel for every leader I've worked for who didn't know when it was time to go... I'd have 3 nickels, which is still a surprising amount

marcyb5st 2y ago

I am repurposing the life lesson my grandfather imparted to me before passing. It was meant about one's sex life, but for me it's applicable also here: "If the struggles outweighs the pleasure you should stop doing it".

shdh 2y ago
> "If the struggles outweighs the pleasure you should stop doing it". Kind of bleak when it comes to romantic relationships

jongjong 2y ago

I'm nostalgic about the good old days prior to 2016 when every technology change meant improvement. Nowadays, tech doesn't change as much, but when it does, it's for the worse. It's been a challenge for me to adapt to the new reality of coding as a game of busy-work and lock-in through complexity. It has become a bit of a theatre for me, unfortunately. I know I could do something in a way that's 100x more efficient but it would negatively impact my job security so no thanks. Also, if I do the right thing, taking all the risk upon myself, nobody will appreciate. I'll stick to inefficient popular tools and methodologies. I'll play the game of Whac-a-mole... Like a bad gardner who pulls the weeds out by the leaves and leaves the roots behind. That's the smart move. I tried the other approach, doing my very best, outperfoming and it couldn't have worked out worse. The manager class feels nothing but contempt for people who outperform. "Good boy! Here, have a pat on the back... Sucker."

corpMaverick 2y ago

I have been programming professionally since 1989. I think my strength is to find straight forward solutions where you can focus on delivering value reliably. But now days I feel that are so many smart people jumping from project to project and leaving mountains of technical debt behind. We spend a lot time managing accidental complexity and I no longer enjoy my job like I used to.

t43562 2y ago

Echoing some other posts a bit: my problem is that I see silly things happening over and over again and I find that telling people doesn't help. Every generation appears to have to learn the same lessons again the hard way. It's a bit depressing. I made some of these mistakes. I didn't have anyone to help me avoid them. Now I can help but .... I cannot help. Only after the balls up and even then often not.

funmi 2y ago

Possibly tangential, but this article and some of the discussion here reminded me of this HN thread from 2020: "Ask HN: Former software engineers, what are you doing now?" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23951850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23951850 A former boss of mine retired early once he decided he was done with the politics required to navigate his work. He fully unplugged from corporate life and got comfortable delving into his passions... cycling, woodworking (so much woodworking), etc. He seemed to be having a blast from what I could see. I recently caught up with him, and it turned out after about a year off, he'd just accepted a job at a fintech that his former boss reached out about. I guess for him it was time to go from that specific job but maybe not quite from engineering in general.

gregfjohnson 2y ago

I turn 70 tomorrow, and have been programming for about 53 years. Started a new job about six months ago. I immensely enjoy banging out the code every day. It still feels like a guilty pleasure! "Shouldn't I be doing homework right now rather than creating 3-D worlds algorithmically?" My first language was APL, which I learned in a college computer science course. This hard-wired me to think in functional terms; I personally think Iverson and Dijkstra were saying the same thing, but Iverson said it better: reason about your code from an "outside of time" perspective rather than mentally imitating the fetch-execute cycle of the machine. I view software development as a form of discrete mathematics; inductive reasoning for sequential blocks of code, Pnueli-style temporal logic for concurrent and parallel code. I've learned from some wonderful people how powerful it can be when a team likes each other and gets into a collective flow state. It is a bit like a mental version of quantum entanglement, and it is a very satisfying and meaningful thing when you get there. I've benefited from friends who helped me get that next job, and I've helped friends get their next jobs. About 20 years ago I made a switch to medical device software development. That is a domain that requires dedication to learn relevant mathematics, it is not going to go away, and you become a valued commodity when you have specialized skills and a talent pool that is not too large. And, you get to do things like visit your grandchildren in a NICU and see neonatal ventilators that you helped develop. So, I've been lucky, being able to play all day and do something I love! There are a million different paths through the space of software development; I've tended to traverse the space using the "what would be fun to goof around with on a Saturday" metric.

fennecbutt 2y ago

I thought this was going to be about Go the language. Damn title case