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Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games
- arsey 14y agoIf CLANG stood for something ridiculous then I'd be in.
- mehulkar 14y agoClean licked armor. 'N gore.
- eli 14y agoOh man, I can't wait to yell "big board" to pull up the cheat mode screen.
- x1 14y agoHe's been wanting this since the mid-90's - not downplaying or being snarky, just making a point. This reminds me of Hero in Snow Crash.
- Cushman 14y agoI'm in from the headline alone.
- alinajaf 14y agoAs a former kendoka, this is a wet dream. I can finally put all that kata to good use!
- psykotic 14y agoAnyone remember Die by the Sword? Admittedly it was more sword flailing than sword fighting, but it's the only game I've played that had a semblance of direct control. It was also the first game to use IK for everything from sword fighting to rope swinging and ladder climbing. Even nowadays it's rare to see IK used in games for anything except relatively minor pose fix-ups (blending canned poses offers better control, and IK fix-ups can then be applied on top to get perfect alignment for aiming, etc).
- znt 14y agoYou should try out Mount & Blade series then.
- dmoy 14y ago+1 on this, M&B with the difficulty settings cranked is the best you can get atm.
- ac 14y ago+2, and even the highest difficulty singleplayer is nothing compared to multiplayer. Beware, though, it has an extremely steep learning curve.
- msfd 14y agoAlso there is Dark Messiah of Might and Magic in the First Person Sworder(?) range. Not a very realistic game, but very enjoyable.
- gmurphy 14y agoWhile Mount and Blade is one of my favorite games of all time, its sword fighting is pretty different to the simulation in Die by the Sword. DbtS didn't really have pre-programmed motions like M&B, it instead attempted to map 2D mouse position to 3D hand position using a physical model of the player's skeleton (which generally resulted in flailing madly with your arm contorted into bonkers positions for the first week of play).
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- antipax 14y agoBiggest problem with these games (I've found, anyway) is that your sword controller cannot magically stop in mid air when your virtual sword hits another sword or a wall or whatever. It really ruins the immersion.
- acgourley 14y agoYep, that and the controller has no weight. To make a realistic game you would then need to make the character have a max swing agility (slow than the player) and also give the character a stamina bar. Anyway that's not to say you can't have fun sword fighting motion games. It just means you can't approximate reality 1:1 in all dimensions. But you can still approximate reality if you just accept the control dimension will be abstract! Consider that Sim City uses an abstract interface to simulate city planning. Surely thats not the interface real city planners use (meetings, proposals) but it's still approximating a reality of city planning much more closely than other games.
- saulrh 14y agoSwords are a lot lighter than people think, even the heaviest armor in use (completely different from the ceremonial stuff) was much less restrictive than usually believed, and the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I suspect that if you used a wiimote or a kinect-tracked stick things would all balance out. It would still require some abstraction, true, but not quite that much. [1] European longswords weigh 1.5 kg on average: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword [2] Guy doing gymnastics in armor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg
- dfc 14y ago> the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I am curious if this is just speculation or if you have evidence for this statement? At first it seems reasonable but I am not so confident after you factor in modern medicine and advances in nutrition/diet and discount for stereotyping.
- eps 14y agoDon't know about a sword fighting game, but I would gladly part with $20 to see Snow Crash rewritten in the past tense :)
- sentiental 14y agoGotta have that TFU
- trevelyan 14y agoI don't mind putting a bit of cash towards projects where those involved really don't have the resources to pull it off otherwise, but does Neal Stephenson really not have enough cash to bootstrap this himself?
- ArmstrongRSBC 14y agoLooks like a PR stunt to me. Not that that's a bad thing. The production alone on that video $$$
- mehulkar 14y agoInteresting how Kickstarter can be used both for PR and actual fundraising.
- dfc 14y agoI always thought PR was a component of fund-raising.
- mbreese 14y agoIt also helps to establish your market and discover what the audience really wants. It's great market research where you can have your potential customers give you feedback throughout the process.
- Cushman 14y agoKickstarter is being used a lot for preorders rather than fundraising. There are a lot of obvious reasons someone might want to do this despite technically not needing financing.
- vidarh 14y agoThere are tons of things I would like to do, that I could afford to do, but that I still won't do if I have to bear the whole financial risk myself. I'm sure that's true for a lot of people.
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- dmoy 14y agoReal swordfighting is not about the sword, it's about the footwork. Just physically do not be where the opponent's sword is heading. See: relatively little blade contact in extremely high level fencing.
- planetguy 14y agoFencing raises another good point: realistic swordfighting is actually pretty boring compared to movie swordfighting. (If it weren't, then movie swordfighting wouldn't need to be so unrealistic). If I'm gonna play a swordfighting video game I wanna be Errol Flynn, not Benjamin Kleibrink. [Who? 2008 Olympic foil champion. Yes, I had to look that up, that's the point.]
- Cushman 14y agoCompetitive fencing is also a far cry from realistic swordfighting. (There's a whole bit in Snow Crash about that, actually.)
- cynest 14y ago> (There's a whole bit in Snow Crash about that, actually.) Admittedly it was katanas in Snow Crash.
- gambler 14y agoBoring? I think you mean "not visually appealing". Sword fighting is not boring. There wouldn't be so many people doing it a hobby otherwise.
- planetguy 14y agoIf it were as fun as it looks in the movies, then there'd be a lot more people doing it. Heck, planespotting is a hobby for a lot of people, but that doesn't make it interesting.
- ww520 14y agoFencing has only a few moves so people don't know the game won't enjoy it as much as a spectator. But it's an extreme competitive sport. As with any competitive sport, it's lots of fun for the participants.
- brown9-2 14y agoAs far as entertaining Kickstarter videos go, this one is certainly off to an auspicious start.
- ralfd 14y agoI found the second video further down even more impressive in its more serious tone.
- jaredsohn 14y ago>in a much more intuitive way than pulling a plastic trigger or pounding a key on a keyboard A bit unfair to make that comparison. At the very least, the Wii Motion Plus in games such as Sports Resort fencing offers a better experience than that.
- daenz 14y agoCameo by Gabe Newell http://i.imgur.com/6vDza.png http://i.imgur.com/6vDza.png, who is swordsmithing a crowbar :) Neal: "Hey is that about ready?" Gabe: "These things, they take time..."
- ArmstrongRSBC 14y agoHe's so dreamy.
- tomelders 14y agoI think Gabe's soul purpose in life now is to just troll Half Life fans.
- ConstantineXVI 14y agoDoesn't necessarily mean anything, but noticed the prototypes they're showing in the video seem to be running on the Source engine...
- kevingadd 14y agoThey're using Unity. Check the jobs page.
- amelim 14y agoI'm surprised there was no mention of the Mount and Blade[1] series, which took a serious look at this sort of combat through the use of contextual mouse movements for parries and attacks. I wonder if he's unaware of the franchise, or just didn't feel the need to mention it. I'm also not convinced that today's odometry based controllers will give you high enough fidelity to model swords convincingly. Any sort of wiimote or kinect based sword/lightsaber game has always seemed very waggle centric without any deliberate movement. Also, I'm not really thrilled about the thought of having to buy plastic swords to swing in my room. [1]:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLA87SgZcw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLA87SgZcw
- acgourley 14y agoHave you tried using 2 PS3 move controllers in the gladiator mode in Sports Champions? It's not great but it's not bad either.
- rsanchez1 14y agoSkyward Sword has some pretty nice swordplay, and it uses the Wii Motion Plus attachment to get more accurate movement data. If you just waggle you'll get killed easy.
- 10dpd 14y agoOk. So a famous author decides to make a sword fighting video game. Awesome. But.... I feel from the video that what they are really trying to create is a sword fighting simulator. Big difference, playability is incredibly important, we're all familiar with 'arcade modes' where realism is suspended to create an engaging, fun game. So I'm wondering how successful this 'game' will actually be.
- mtgx 14y agoWhen the Wii appeared, sword games was the first thing that came to my mind, but I don't there have been too many of them on the Wii. I was also hoping we'd see some martial arts fighting (or training) games for the Kinect by now, although the Kinect needs to dramatically increase its accuracy for that.
- marshray 14y agoYes, that came to everyone's mind. But what was the big title game involving a sword for Wii? Zelda Twilight Princess. Originally designed for the Gamecube, it was ported to Wii with few changes. Basically, you wave the Wiimote left and right to simulate button 'A' and poke it forward to simulate a different button combination from the conventional Gamecube controller. Having been a big fan of the game on Gamecube, I didn't like the Wii version very much. Most of the time your sword is used to cut grass or break pottery or something else mundane, so it felt like a lot of waving around just for show. Maybe even a little bit like having a TV remote with loose batteries that you have to shake a bit to get it to work. Years ago I practiced a little martial arts and took 3 or 4 classes dedicated to practice swords. What I can relate from that is that picking up a sword-like object and waving it around purposefully for an hour is going to use muscles that you are not used to using. Even someone in good shape is going to feel it the next day. This sounds like good fun exercise, but it seems like the market for a video game you can play from the couch will always be much larger than for a game that presents a realistic physical challenge. Wii and Kinect games may provide interesting counterexamples; we should look up the sales stats for physical vs. sedentary games.
- mehulkar 14y agoI'm more of a minesweeper guy. Can they make a game that makes blowing up mines more realistic? How much would a Kickstarter campaign for that cost?
- gklitt 14y agoEntertaining video, but the production value was so high that it made me wonder whether this project really needs my money...
- Mizza 14y agoLoved the Gaben cameo!
- mattdeboard 14y agoWhat are the technical challenges involved with building a high quality, low-latency bit of hardware? Even small lags in response are really annoying and kill enjoyment of the game for me.
- Estragon 14y agoVideo games? What happened to building the space needle with Google? :-)
- sneak 14y agoI absolutely adore the video, but the video should CLEARLY explain what the money is going to be used for. There is no mention (only allusion) to hardware development in the video at all. Also, it's not clear from the video if the game will be playable _without_ the special hardware...
- rufo 14y agoThere is no special hardware. It's going to use an off-the-shelf motion controller to start. There's a second video a bit further down with a bit more info.
- radical_cut 14y agoAs someone who just finished reading Snow Crash today (great stuff btw, can't wait for another Stephenson's book) I'd be thrilled to see this and try it in action. As someone who's been into martial arts for some time I'm very sceptic about this. There's a lot more to realistic fighting than just swinging and clashing swords: footwork, body movement, weight transfer... Nevertheles, even if it won't turn out to be perfect it could stil be a lots of fun. I'll be watching their progress.
- DanBC 14y ago> There's a lot more to realistic fighting than just swinging and clashing swords: footwork, body movement, weight transfer... I agree. I'm pretty sure he's not aiming at making something totally immersive and realistic, but just a good game that has better sword play than anything else. Many games do one thing pretty well, and are good enough for everything else. Black had nice gun play; Burnout had nice crashing. Hopefully this will have sword play that is better than just button mashing. > Nevertheles, even if it won't turn out to be perfect it could stil be a lots of fun. I'll be watching their progress. Yes, I'd settle for lots of fun.
- ww520 14y agoIt's going to be difficult to get right. They seem to emphasize on the hand work, the swing, parry, thrust. Sword fighting is as much foot work as hand work, as I've learned in my fencing days way back. There are only a few hand actions, the lounge, parry/return, and indirect attack, on different zones, but the foot work is the major part of the game. Keeping and judging the distance is a tough skill. Close in suddenly, retreat and lounge, counter lounge, lounge and crouch, .etc. All these will be difficult to replicate in the game. I wish them luck.
- defen 14y agoI'm curious how they plan to implement actual medieval / early Renaissance combat tactics with a controller like the one in the video - how would you do half-swording or something like the Mordhau? For people who aren't medieval geeks - half-sword is when you hold the sword halfway up the blade with your left hand, in order to deliver a more accurate, powerful thrust; perhaps after trapping your opponent's sword between your arm and body. Mordhau ("murder-strike") is when you invert the sword and use it as a mace. These things came about because swinging a sword into an armored opponent isn't actually going to do much to him. It seems like the kind of combat you could simulate might potentially be fun, but wouldn't actually simulate a real fight from the period - not enough grappling / bashing.
- gchpaco 14y agoIt looks as though they're pursuing the unarmored combat of Liechtenauer than the armored knight combat of later period, where swords basically stopped being useful against breastplates and the like and folks went in more for maces and war hammers. Liechtenauer does, IIRC, have halfswording in the basic form but mostly it is about geometry and footwork.
- iamgilesbowkett 14y agoam I correctly reading the rewards? it looks as if no reward at all includes the actual new hardware controller he wants to create. doesn't make a whole lot of sense that way.
- nathan_long 14y agoOne of the most interesting games I've ever played was Bushido Blade 2. The best thing about it was realistic vulnerability: get stabbed once and you die (or maybe lose use of an arm). The disappointment was made up for by lots of quick rounds. I always thought it was silly to have games where you'd get shot 20 times and keep fighting exactly the same, just lose some of your energy meter, then suddenly flop over and die when it reached zero.
- nazgulnarsil 14y agoYeah, my immediate reaction to this is that I just want a real Bushido Blade sequel. The most underrated fighting game of all time IMO.
- pavel_lishin 14y agoI think a friend showed me either that game, or one that was very similar. You were in any given map - which was effectively a field - and you would charge each other, and the player with the quicker reflexes lived, and the other one died. It was interesting, but not at all fun - to me, it seemed like the equivalent of playing five card stud.
- davidw 14y agoThinking about comparative advantage, and being the selfish sort, I think I'd rather see him do something closer to home. I don't play video games, and even a Neal Stephenson game isn't going to change that, but I love his writing.
- justinhj 14y agoI wish him luck. Various projects have come along with backing from people outside the video game industry with the goal of being more realistic, more revolutionary and so on. But it's a lot harder to make a playable fun game. Realism often isn't fun. Modern Warfare 3 is the culmination of 20 years of evolution from Wolfenstein, and still is nothing like being a real soldier.
- mbrubeck 14y ago"I'm the greatest sword fighter in the world." "And you wrote the software." "Yeah. That, too," Hiro says. ―Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash
- jrockway 14y agoI was most surprised that his new company isn't called Corporation 9592.
- fromhet 14y agoWhy is it named clang? So very very confusing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clang
- archivator 14y agoPresumably it's an allusion to the sound of swords clashing. I bet most people haven't heard of the other Clang (C lang, really)
- kinship 14y agoI think tgakick.com and the return of Sierra games is more realistic. Pledge today
- charlieok 14y agoReminds me of that Incantor wand controller http://incantor.com/ http://incantor.com/ http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/moveablecode/incantor-magic-made-real-a-real-world-mobile-based http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/moveablecode/incantor-ma... Maybe you'd want a difference in heftiness of the controller, but a similar swinging/waving api?
- DROELOEBOY 14y agoRune! Was awesome. The way you could make your sword move with the mouse was amazing. Accuracy is what it is about. If this game could capture that feeling I am aboard.
- chernevik 14y agoEverybody needs a hobby but I thought Reamde was Stephenson's break from revolutionizing historical / science fiction.
- jrockway 14y agoI have to say; sword fighting is perhaps the least interesting subject I could imagine, but since it's Neil Stephenson, he can have my money. I also enjoyed the part where he threw the cookbook at Sir Dumbass.
- magoghm 14y agoI'm amazed at how many HN readers have turned out to also be sword fighting experts! :)
- Roboprog 14y agoDon't be. What, 20 out of 20,000? Even my daughters have had fencing in Jr. High.
- kuahyeow 14y agoAn update has just been posted, only for backers though. Anyone mind sharing?
- Paul_S 14y agoIt's been incorporated into the front page. The only thing missing is that they want to use Razer Hydra as the controller.
- jakejake 14y agoI'm probably only moderately interested in the sword fighting game, but this is easily the most entertaining kick starter video I've seen so far.
- cheatercheater 14y agoTLDR: In a parallel thread ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4086805 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4086805 ) multiple posters note how Pixar's 22 tips for storytelling apply to computer programming. Obviously AAPL took note, because Neal Stephenson is working on Clang now. The enterprise became the hot topic of yet another front-page thread ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4090845 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4090845 ). They soon might find this handy: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4085318 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4085318 ;)
- uzero 14y agoClang getting some The Verge coverage http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/10/3076307/neal-stephenson-clang-sword-fighting-game http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/10/3076307/neal-stephenson-cl... - I hope these guys hit mainstream. I would love it if Neal could pull this off in a big way.
- EternalFury 14y agoIf you want to sword fight "realistically", go out, buy a sword and join a sword-fighting club. Darn, why do people try to solve everything with technology when there is a simple solution in the physical world!? No matter how they dice it or slice it (ah ah), it's not going to end up "realistic" for anyone who has used a sword before.
- shard 14y agoI think this game and controller is targeted at the superset of people who was to sword fight "realistically" while playing a fun game, without all the bruises and sore muscles and years of training that accompany using a real sword.
- flyinRyan 14y agoSo once I learn how to realistically fight with a sword in your club I'll be able to go out and fight a dragon? And if I'm not as good as I thought and get killed by the dragon will it just end the.... oh wait, there's no game. Seems like your solution isn't as flexible as the technological one.
- ritratt 14y agohe copied my realization! http://www.riturajsatpute.com/2010/08/where-are-real-role-playing-games.html http://www.riturajsatpute.com/2010/08/where-are-real-role-pl...