8 ms·

Postzegelcode

241 points by tdeck 2y ago

thih9 2y ago
What happens when I share my code with others? I.e. when there are multiple letters with the same code found in an outgoing post box?
- consp 2y ago
  Only the first one would be legal and the recipients would have to pay for the postal cost of the next one. If you put the origin (postal code plus home number is enough) on the back you get a payment proposal in your mailbox.
- Boltgolt 2y ago
  IIRC the first envelope scanned at a sorting facility invalidates the postzegelcode immediately, any envelopes using it after that will be handled like they had no postzegel at all (receiver has to pay)
  - OptionOfT 2y ago
    What if you mail 2 and they are scanned at the same time and the database isn't up to date yet?
    - dc96 2y ago
      Seems strange they would design a system that could scan faster than they could process the DB, no? I assume there's some queue in between. But the real answer is probably just: multiple scans happen for the same piece of mail. Eventually, one or both of them will be marked as due for payment. The question then becomes, was it worth saving the postage cost for what is potentially a much costlier penalty?
    - contravariant 2y ago
      You may find they will refuse service to you for unspecified reasons.
    - zoky 2y ago
      This seems fairly unlikely to ever occur. The database would have to be decentralized, and the two items would have to be mailed from separate locations and both be scanned more or less simultaneously—or within however many minutes it takes for database changes to propagate, which can’t be all that long since you’re able to buy a code and use it on the same day. Given how remote the probability of this happening is, simply ignoring it and delivering both pieces probably isn’t unreasonable. Or flag it for further investigation and maybe bill the sender or recipient for an additional piece of mail.
      - berkes 2y ago
        And even if for some reason it does occur more often, a message queue is a common, and rather simple solution for this.
- molf 2y ago
  For all mail except the first, the same thing that happens if you send a letter with no postage: the sender will receive a request to pay after delivery. If the sender is unknown the recipient will receive a request to pay (which can be appealed).
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - miunau 2y ago
    I mail a fair amount of physical media using the postzegelcode. If you put a return address, PostNL just returns the letter with a sticker on it saying the postage was not enough. They won't deliver it.
    - lancebeet 2y ago
      If they deliver the letter to the return address, what prevents you from writing the target address as the return address and getting it delivered for free?
      - hananova 2y ago
        They know approximately the area the return address should be at, and they also know who used the app to buy the code.
        cedilla 2y ago
        It's also some kind of fraud in most jurisdictions, or subject to an extra fee if discovered. Germany's new stamps aren't stamped any more - a QR code gets scanned and logged instead - so people thought they were lucky when they received unstamped letters and decided to re-use the stamp. They got hit with a fine.
        thih9 2y ago
        What if the postal system has a bug - and one of these people used a newly bought stamp? Rare but not unheard of[1]. [1]: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/13/business/uk-post-office-fujitsu-horizon-scandal https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/13/business/uk-post-office-f...
- 6510 2y ago
  In my experience it will be delivered and the sender will be politely asked to pay for it. They don't have to pay for it but it's rude not to.
  - dmurray 2y ago
    > They don't have to pay for it but it's rude not to. Given that this is the Netherlands, that sounds like "they won't pay for it".
    - 6510 2y ago
      Many people think they have to pay.
  - miunau 2y ago
    Hmm. When was this? I've had the code read wrong a few times and they just have returned the letter. Then I've gotten a refund for the postage through their customer service.
- ragebol 2y ago
  The typical outgoing mail box, where you put your mail in for it to be delivered, doesn't allow peering into it. So a physical measure to avoid that. But if it's out in the open: first come first serve, like the other comments describe
  - thih9 2y ago
    1. Buy an apartment next to a well lit outgoing post box. 2. Install a system of mirrors to peek at the letters being inserted into the box 3. Reuse one code for a 50% chance of saving 1 euro and delivering your mail for free. 4. Send each letter 7 times, each with a different duplicate code, for a 99% chance of at least one free delivery. Not worth the effort and I’m sure this would be tracked and stopped immediately. But it’s cool that in theory this seems possible.
    - ragebol 2y ago
      If you are willing to go that length, I'll give you a damn postzegelcode
- NikkiA 2y ago
  I would guess that the system generates more digits - lets say 3 when the postal system checks that PZC on the mail, if there is nothing written by the PZC then it's assumed to be fresh, and the 3 extra digits are looked up via a postal-service-only gateway, then placed on the mail by the PZC for future lookups, possibly along with a date. If the PZC has the extra digits, then it can be looked up and confirmed as redeemed with those extra digits, and possibly the stamped date. The extra digits could be stamped or handwritten, possibly with the postmark date used as the redemption date manually entered from the mail as it passes through the sorting system the first time, OR stamped from the date it's registered as redemption, either would work. Such a system would relatively guarantee that fraud would be difficult, since only one person could have a PZC without the check digits go into the system, and sharing would be useless.
skrebbel 2y ago
It works real well for people like me who don’t send physical mail often. Just pay online and write the code onto an envelope with a pen. I love the simplicity.
- berkes 2y ago
  For me too. I used to have a sheet of stamps lying around. Often only one was used. Then those would "expire" after years, in the sense that (yearly?) tariff-increasments would invalidate the "now too cheap" ones. I then had to buy additional special ones to compensate for the price. Digital is the way forward and this is a perfect example of simple digital to analog. It works fantastic.
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    Generally there are also non-denominated "forever" stamps available whose real value will remain the same despite changing rates.
    - saghm 2y ago
      I assume you're talking about the US? I thought that nowadays all US postal stamps are "forever" ones as of several years ago, but maybe it's just the post offices around where I've lived that don't bother selling the "temporary" ones.
      - Sharlin 2y ago
        I’m talking worldwide (I only have first-hand experience about Finland, but they seem common according to Wikipedia)
      - ohmyiv 2y ago
        > maybe it's just the post offices around where I've lived that don't bother selling the "temporary" ones. Are we talking about US? If so, it might be your office. The one near me tries to sell me all kinds when I actually go in to do stuff. USPS still sells varying rate stamps ranging 1 cent additional postage to $30 priority mail express stamps.
alkonaut 2y ago
I wonder if any of the 9 characters are checksum (the example math indicates none is), or if the validation scan allows a search without one of the characters e.g AB1?3XYZ in case of sloppy writing. If not, then the system relies on people being able to write 9 consecutive legible characters. With postal codes and addresses it’s less fragile because the context helps disambiguate (a last name helps a postman tell if a street address has a 7 or 1)
- dark-star 2y ago
  Since there is already a framework for returning letters with invalid/unreadable/damaged addresses, I'd guess the overhead of returning wrongly-written postzegelcodes is negligible.
- molf 2y ago
  In the case of sloppy writing, the letter will be ejected from the sorting machine and reviewed by a human (same process as for illegible addresses). If a human cannot find a match then the sender will receive a request to pay for the missing postage (presuming the code is invalid). If the sender is unknown the recipient will receive a payment request (which can be appealed). Speaking from experience you would normally want the letter to arrive at its destination so I take care to write the code very clearly. I imagine this is true for most people.
  - kr2 2y ago
    You massively underestimate the care or thought some Americans give to anything including legibly writing an address; very cool look into how USPS handles that situation (link free to read without subscription) https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/where-mail-with-illegible-addresses-goes-to-be-read.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3k0.zQJF.lNDbrD5oJbJR&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/where-mail-with-illegi...
    - hprotagonist 2y ago
      “where MNIST comes from”
pacifika 2y ago
I wonder why they wouldn’t take the address at the time of payment so it’s not needed on the actual letter. That seems more convenient. Backwards compatibility?
- Kiala 2y ago
  Or, you know, the mail man?
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    Clearly mailmen would just be expected to use their phones to decode the addresses on demand, because everything is supposed to require a phone and an internet connection these days. A bit more realistically, the address could be printed on a sticker by the sorting machine, the way address redirections are handled.
    - dfox 2y ago
      For a mail/parcel carrier relabeling anything is (somewhat surprisingly) a significant added cost (and there is not that much of margin), so they will do everything in their power to not do that unless absolutely necessary.
      - Denvercoder9 2y ago
        PostNL relabels approximately all parcels addressed to me (I almost always have to change either the delivery date or location to one convenient to me), completely free of charge.
        dfox 2y ago
        Free of charge to you and free of charge to the sender. Which is exactly my point, for PostNL it is a sunk cost and if that will happen for significant amount of their consignments it would be an issue.
    - crote 2y ago
gglnx 2y ago
Germany has this too: #PORTO and the code. https://www.deutschepost.de/de/m/mobile-briefmarke.html https://www.deutschepost.de/de/m/mobile-briefmarke.html (and valid for 3 years after you bought it)
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  Cool, I didn't know that. I still have a few self-printed QR code-type stamps. #PORTO is a nice option.
- intothemild 2y ago
  Same here in Norway.
- lucb1e 2y ago
  It is only purchasable if you install their software, can't just buy such a stamp on the website if I'm reading the page correctly? I seem to remember Deutsche Post also had a thing you could just write on the letter, or maybe it was DHL's parcel service instead. Those were purchased simply online like any other product/service and, after paying, it told you what to write in the corner. Or maybe I misremember and they only have this system where you can take the pdf to a parcel shop and have them print your label. Edit: found the "print in store" option, it's not for letters but for parcels https://www.dhl.de/de/privatkunden/pakete-versenden/angebot-online-frankierung.html https://www.dhl.de/de/privatkunden/pakete-versenden/angebot-... "Don't have a printer? Let your stamp be printed at [places]."
  - cedilla 2y ago
    There used to be a premium number you could send an SMS to. It was more expensive than a normal stamp to cover for the expensive billing. "Handyporto" replaced this and that's probably also why you can't buy it on the website. Deutsche Post probably can't conceive of people who don't own a printer so they heavily advertise "Internetmarke" which requires one.
    - illiac786 2y ago
fhackenberger 2y ago
There's a very similar system in Germany with a hashtag code from Deutsche Post since 2020, called #PORTO: https://www.deutschepost.de/de/m/mobile-briefmarke.html https://www.deutschepost.de/de/m/mobile-briefmarke.html
timvdalen 2y ago
Works pretty well, definitely less work than having to go to a store to buy a single stamp whenever I need to send a letter
vitplister 2y ago
This is available in Sweden as well https://kopfrakt.postnord.se/service/digitalt-frimarke https://kopfrakt.postnord.se/service/digitalt-frimarke
atemerev 2y ago
Also works in Switzerland.
banish-m4 2y ago
Americans ought to petition USPS to do this. It sounds extremely convenient because it doesn't require a Pitney Bowes printer or printing anything from Endicia. PS: Are those tiny, cheap, desktop laser engravers powerful enough to "print" on paper without starting a fire?
- tichiian 2y ago
  > PS: Are those tiny, cheap, desktop laser engravers powerful enough to "print" on paper without starting a fire? Yes, you can modulate their power. It usually takes a few experiments if the manual doesn't have a material table.
  - banish-m4 2y ago
    It still seems wild to me that laser products powerful enough to chemically alter objects are sold or allowed without a sealed protection system. I guess product safety standards aren't what they used to be.
- m463 2y ago
  It sounds like the opposite of Forever Stamps. Maybe Ephemeral Stamps? Momentary Stamps? Whatever Stamps?
fullspectrumdev 2y ago
A similar system (that I have not used yet) has been adopted in Ireland, and apparently it works really well?
- tdeck 2y ago
  I found an article about it: https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/1012/1328565-digital-stamps-an-post/ https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/1012/1328565-digital-s...
- jcul 2y ago
  Yeah, I got a flyer about it in the post recently. Seems like a great idea, I seldom post anything, but when I do it's a pain to have to go buy stamps. It's a bit stingy though that they are charging so much more for a digital stamp.
olooney 2y ago
This would make a pretty good programming interview question: "Design a service with two endpoints, one to create a postzegelcode and another to redeem it. A postzegelcode is a nine character, case insensitive alphanumeric code conventionally displayed in all upper case in a 3x3 grid. Postzegelcodes are valid for 5 days after issue and can only be redeemed once. Authentication and payment are out of scope."
- kevmo314 2y ago
  Insta-hire to the candidate that realizes the number of requests is so small that a plain-text file would suffice.
  - paulmd 2y ago
    SQLite, sure, but I don’t want a coworker who chooses the hand-crafted full-scan on artisanal csv libraries or w/e
    - jzwinck 2y ago
      You don't need a full scan or a giant CSV file. You can do it with a single small file in a single directory. The file contains the state of a pseudo random number generator. On each request, generate a number, save the new PRNG state into a new temp file in a subdirectory, and rename the temp file over top of the original file. If renaming fails, try the whole process a few more times. This allows multiple processes to serve requests concurrently. Exercise for the reader: avoid re-reading the PRNG state file on retries.
      - Mo3 2y ago
        And how would you invalidate the generated codes after 5 days? And is this even scalable to more than one Postzegelcode in circulation?
      - paulmd 2y ago
        that sounds like a badly home-rolled uuid4 with extra steps. How about instead we just generate a uuid4, insert it into a sqlite file or Postgres database, and then the postzegelcode value is threefry(SECRET,uuid)?
rtpg 2y ago
Is there any context into why this was put into place at the time it was? I would like to understand why this was set up.
- jorams 2y ago
  I found an article[1] from before it was launched. Translated: > The most important reason for the introduction of the Zegelcode is that about 20% of our customers indicates they don't have a stamp on hand when they want to send something. [1]: https://www.internetkassa.nu/postnl-verwacht-digitaal-frankeren-eerste-helft-van-2013-te-lanceren/ https://www.internetkassa.nu/postnl-verwacht-digitaal-franke...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
filt 2y ago
Sweden has this too: https://www.postnord.se/en/private/sending/letters-and-parcels/digital-stamps/ https://www.postnord.se/en/private/sending/letters-and-parce...
TacticalCoder 2y ago
> Assuming 26 letters and 9 digits (the zero is not used to avoid confusion with the letter O) That is cute. But what about 'G' and '6', 'B' and '8' and the myriad of things that can go SNAFU when handwriting is involved? Heck, even on the official picture here: https://www.postnl.nl/versturen/postzegels/postzegels-kopen/postzegelcode/ https://www.postnl.nl/versturen/postzegels/postzegels-kopen/... The handwriting '1' looks like a 'L'. Does the system allow for one mistake? Does it automatically try to replace '1' with 'L' and see if it matches a valid code? I wonder the actual failure rate is. If you decided to not use '0' to avoid confusion, you've accepted that there shall be confusion. And confusion doesn't just happen with '0' and 'O'. P.S: as a sidenote I know for a fact that at least 30 years ago there were post offices in some EU countries already doing OCR on handwriting, but the ones I've seen were doing it on digits-only, that had to be written on envelopes with pre-printed empty rectangles. It was done for the cities' postcode, to sort the mail automatically.
- kazinator 2y ago
  A well-formed, hand-written O is indistinguishable from a well-formed, hand-written zero. Literally, no amount of effort will make it clear which one is intended, short of some agreed-upon convention to use a different glyph like a slashed O for zero. This is not true of G and 6 or B and 8. If these are well-formed, they are completely distinct. People who paid for their post code are motivated to write the code clearly, for fear of nondelivery; but no amount of motivation will fix 0 versus O. > The handwriting '1' looks like a 'L'. It certainly does not. Rather, the lower case l is easily confused for the digit 1. This postzegelcode doesn't use lower case. I don't see it mentioned that I is avoided because of 1. The likely reason is that Europeans don't write 1 just as a stick. It starts with an angled upstroke. That upstroke makes it possible to confuse the European 1 with an American 7; but the European 7 has a horizontal stroke across its stem which thwarts that problem. (I addition, a cursive 7's upper horizontal stroke is actually wavy, like a tilde.) Confusion of I, 1 and 7 in European handwriting is next to nil.
  - wodenokoto 2y ago
    > The likely reason is that Europeans don't write 1 just as a stick. It starts with an angled upstroke. I'm European, and that's how I write it, but if you look at the link, that's not how they write 1's in the promotional material - Those 1's follow pretty much the stroke I would do for an L, only the foot is shorter and slightly more pointed upward.
jabrown 2y ago
I am from the Netherlands. I think this is an awful and unnecessary innovation. Postage stamps often have pretty pictures on them and I like the act of having to paste one onto the envelope (some of them you have to lick the back of to make them stick). This just seems like another soulless way of making things machine-readable and less human.

241 points by tdeck 2y ago

What happens when I share my code with others? I.e. when there are multiple letters with the same code found in an outgoing post box?

consp 2y ago
Only the first one would be legal and the recipients would have to pay for the postal cost of the next one. If you put the origin (postal code plus home number is enough) on the back you get a payment proposal in your mailbox.
Boltgolt 2y ago
IIRC the first envelope scanned at a sorting facility invalidates the postzegelcode immediately, any envelopes using it after that will be handled like they had no postzegel at all (receiver has to pay)
- OptionOfT 2y ago
  What if you mail 2 and they are scanned at the same time and the database isn't up to date yet?
  - dc96 2y ago
    Seems strange they would design a system that could scan faster than they could process the DB, no? I assume there's some queue in between. But the real answer is probably just: multiple scans happen for the same piece of mail. Eventually, one or both of them will be marked as due for payment. The question then becomes, was it worth saving the postage cost for what is potentially a much costlier penalty?
  - contravariant 2y ago
    You may find they will refuse service to you for unspecified reasons.
  - zoky 2y ago
    This seems fairly unlikely to ever occur. The database would have to be decentralized, and the two items would have to be mailed from separate locations and both be scanned more or less simultaneously—or within however many minutes it takes for database changes to propagate, which can’t be all that long since you’re able to buy a code and use it on the same day. Given how remote the probability of this happening is, simply ignoring it and delivering both pieces probably isn’t unreasonable. Or flag it for further investigation and maybe bill the sender or recipient for an additional piece of mail.
    - berkes 2y ago
      And even if for some reason it does occur more often, a message queue is a common, and rather simple solution for this.
molf 2y ago
For all mail except the first, the same thing that happens if you send a letter with no postage: the sender will receive a request to pay after delivery. If the sender is unknown the recipient will receive a request to pay (which can be appealed).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- miunau 2y ago
  I mail a fair amount of physical media using the postzegelcode. If you put a return address, PostNL just returns the letter with a sticker on it saying the postage was not enough. They won't deliver it.
  - lancebeet 2y ago
    If they deliver the letter to the return address, what prevents you from writing the target address as the return address and getting it delivered for free?
    - hananova 2y ago
      They know approximately the area the return address should be at, and they also know who used the app to buy the code.
      - cedilla 2y ago
        It's also some kind of fraud in most jurisdictions, or subject to an extra fee if discovered. Germany's new stamps aren't stamped any more - a QR code gets scanned and logged instead - so people thought they were lucky when they received unstamped letters and decided to re-use the stamp. They got hit with a fine.
        thih9 2y ago
        What if the postal system has a bug - and one of these people used a newly bought stamp? Rare but not unheard of[1]. [1]: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/13/business/uk-post-office-fujitsu-horizon-scandal https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/13/business/uk-post-office-f...
6510 2y ago
In my experience it will be delivered and the sender will be politely asked to pay for it. They don't have to pay for it but it's rude not to.
- dmurray 2y ago
  > They don't have to pay for it but it's rude not to. Given that this is the Netherlands, that sounds like "they won't pay for it".
  - 6510 2y ago
    Many people think they have to pay.
- miunau 2y ago
  Hmm. When was this? I've had the code read wrong a few times and they just have returned the letter. Then I've gotten a refund for the postage through their customer service.
ragebol 2y ago
The typical outgoing mail box, where you put your mail in for it to be delivered, doesn't allow peering into it. So a physical measure to avoid that. But if it's out in the open: first come first serve, like the other comments describe
- thih9 2y ago
  1. Buy an apartment next to a well lit outgoing post box. 2. Install a system of mirrors to peek at the letters being inserted into the box 3. Reuse one code for a 50% chance of saving 1 euro and delivering your mail for free. 4. Send each letter 7 times, each with a different duplicate code, for a 99% chance of at least one free delivery. Not worth the effort and I’m sure this would be tracked and stopped immediately. But it’s cool that in theory this seems possible.
  - ragebol 2y ago
    If you are willing to go that length, I'll give you a damn postzegelcode
NikkiA 2y ago
I would guess that the system generates more digits - lets say 3 when the postal system checks that PZC on the mail, if there is nothing written by the PZC then it's assumed to be fresh, and the 3 extra digits are looked up via a postal-service-only gateway, then placed on the mail by the PZC for future lookups, possibly along with a date. If the PZC has the extra digits, then it can be looked up and confirmed as redeemed with those extra digits, and possibly the stamped date. The extra digits could be stamped or handwritten, possibly with the postmark date used as the redemption date manually entered from the mail as it passes through the sorting system the first time, OR stamped from the date it's registered as redemption, either would work. Such a system would relatively guarantee that fraud would be difficult, since only one person could have a PZC without the check digits go into the system, and sharing would be useless.

skrebbel 2y ago

It works real well for people like me who don’t send physical mail often. Just pay online and write the code onto an envelope with a pen. I love the simplicity.

berkes 2y ago
For me too. I used to have a sheet of stamps lying around. Often only one was used. Then those would "expire" after years, in the sense that (yearly?) tariff-increasments would invalidate the "now too cheap" ones. I then had to buy additional special ones to compensate for the price. Digital is the way forward and this is a perfect example of simple digital to analog. It works fantastic.
- Sharlin 2y ago
  Generally there are also non-denominated "forever" stamps available whose real value will remain the same despite changing rates.
  - saghm 2y ago
    I assume you're talking about the US? I thought that nowadays all US postal stamps are "forever" ones as of several years ago, but maybe it's just the post offices around where I've lived that don't bother selling the "temporary" ones.
    - Sharlin 2y ago
      I’m talking worldwide (I only have first-hand experience about Finland, but they seem common according to Wikipedia)
    - ohmyiv 2y ago
      > maybe it's just the post offices around where I've lived that don't bother selling the "temporary" ones. Are we talking about US? If so, it might be your office. The one near me tries to sell me all kinds when I actually go in to do stuff. USPS still sells varying rate stamps ranging 1 cent additional postage to $30 priority mail express stamps.

alkonaut 2y ago

I wonder if any of the 9 characters are checksum (the example math indicates none is), or if the validation scan allows a search without one of the characters e.g AB1?3XYZ in case of sloppy writing. If not, then the system relies on people being able to write 9 consecutive legible characters. With postal codes and addresses it’s less fragile because the context helps disambiguate (a last name helps a postman tell if a street address has a 7 or 1)

dark-star 2y ago
Since there is already a framework for returning letters with invalid/unreadable/damaged addresses, I'd guess the overhead of returning wrongly-written postzegelcodes is negligible.
molf 2y ago
In the case of sloppy writing, the letter will be ejected from the sorting machine and reviewed by a human (same process as for illegible addresses). If a human cannot find a match then the sender will receive a request to pay for the missing postage (presuming the code is invalid). If the sender is unknown the recipient will receive a payment request (which can be appealed). Speaking from experience you would normally want the letter to arrive at its destination so I take care to write the code very clearly. I imagine this is true for most people.
- kr2 2y ago
  You massively underestimate the care or thought some Americans give to anything including legibly writing an address; very cool look into how USPS handles that situation (link free to read without subscription) https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/where-mail-with-illegible-addresses-goes-to-be-read.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3k0.zQJF.lNDbrD5oJbJR&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/where-mail-with-illegi...
  - hprotagonist 2y ago
    “where MNIST comes from”

pacifika 2y ago

I wonder why they wouldn’t take the address at the time of payment so it’s not needed on the actual letter. That seems more convenient. Backwards compatibility?

Kiala 2y ago
Or, you know, the mail man?
- Sharlin 2y ago
  Clearly mailmen would just be expected to use their phones to decode the addresses on demand, because everything is supposed to require a phone and an internet connection these days. A bit more realistically, the address could be printed on a sticker by the sorting machine, the way address redirections are handled.
  - dfox 2y ago
    For a mail/parcel carrier relabeling anything is (somewhat surprisingly) a significant added cost (and there is not that much of margin), so they will do everything in their power to not do that unless absolutely necessary.
    - Denvercoder9 2y ago
      PostNL relabels approximately all parcels addressed to me (I almost always have to change either the delivery date or location to one convenient to me), completely free of charge.
      - dfox 2y ago
        Free of charge to you and free of charge to the sender. Which is exactly my point, for PostNL it is a sunk cost and if that will happen for significant amount of their consignments it would be an issue.
  - crote 2y ago

gglnx 2y ago

Germany has this too: #PORTO and the code. https://www.deutschepost.de/de/m/mobile-briefmarke.html https://www.deutschepost.de/de/m/mobile-briefmarke.html (and valid for 3 years after you bought it)

ahartmetz 2y ago
Cool, I didn't know that. I still have a few self-printed QR code-type stamps. #PORTO is a nice option.
intothemild 2y ago
Same here in Norway.
lucb1e 2y ago
It is only purchasable if you install their software, can't just buy such a stamp on the website if I'm reading the page correctly? I seem to remember Deutsche Post also had a thing you could just write on the letter, or maybe it was DHL's parcel service instead. Those were purchased simply online like any other product/service and, after paying, it told you what to write in the corner. Or maybe I misremember and they only have this system where you can take the pdf to a parcel shop and have them print your label. Edit: found the "print in store" option, it's not for letters but for parcels https://www.dhl.de/de/privatkunden/pakete-versenden/angebot-online-frankierung.html https://www.dhl.de/de/privatkunden/pakete-versenden/angebot-... "Don't have a printer? Let your stamp be printed at [places]."
- cedilla 2y ago
  There used to be a premium number you could send an SMS to. It was more expensive than a normal stamp to cover for the expensive billing. "Handyporto" replaced this and that's probably also why you can't buy it on the website. Deutsche Post probably can't conceive of people who don't own a printer so they heavily advertise "Internetmarke" which requires one.
  - illiac786 2y ago

fhackenberger 2y ago

There's a very similar system in Germany with a hashtag code from Deutsche Post since 2020, called #PORTO: https://www.deutschepost.de/de/m/mobile-briefmarke.html https://www.deutschepost.de/de/m/mobile-briefmarke.html

timvdalen 2y ago

Works pretty well, definitely less work than having to go to a store to buy a single stamp whenever I need to send a letter

vitplister 2y ago

This is available in Sweden as well https://kopfrakt.postnord.se/service/digitalt-frimarke https://kopfrakt.postnord.se/service/digitalt-frimarke

atemerev 2y ago

Also works in Switzerland.

banish-m4 2y ago

Americans ought to petition USPS to do this. It sounds extremely convenient because it doesn't require a Pitney Bowes printer or printing anything from Endicia. PS: Are those tiny, cheap, desktop laser engravers powerful enough to "print" on paper without starting a fire?

tichiian 2y ago
> PS: Are those tiny, cheap, desktop laser engravers powerful enough to "print" on paper without starting a fire? Yes, you can modulate their power. It usually takes a few experiments if the manual doesn't have a material table.
- banish-m4 2y ago
  It still seems wild to me that laser products powerful enough to chemically alter objects are sold or allowed without a sealed protection system. I guess product safety standards aren't what they used to be.
m463 2y ago
It sounds like the opposite of Forever Stamps. Maybe Ephemeral Stamps? Momentary Stamps? Whatever Stamps?

fullspectrumdev 2y ago

A similar system (that I have not used yet) has been adopted in Ireland, and apparently it works really well?

tdeck 2y ago
I found an article about it: https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/1012/1328565-digital-stamps-an-post/ https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/1012/1328565-digital-s...
jcul 2y ago
Yeah, I got a flyer about it in the post recently. Seems like a great idea, I seldom post anything, but when I do it's a pain to have to go buy stamps. It's a bit stingy though that they are charging so much more for a digital stamp.

olooney 2y ago

This would make a pretty good programming interview question: "Design a service with two endpoints, one to create a postzegelcode and another to redeem it. A postzegelcode is a nine character, case insensitive alphanumeric code conventionally displayed in all upper case in a 3x3 grid. Postzegelcodes are valid for 5 days after issue and can only be redeemed once. Authentication and payment are out of scope."

kevmo314 2y ago
Insta-hire to the candidate that realizes the number of requests is so small that a plain-text file would suffice.
- paulmd 2y ago
  SQLite, sure, but I don’t want a coworker who chooses the hand-crafted full-scan on artisanal csv libraries or w/e
  - jzwinck 2y ago
    You don't need a full scan or a giant CSV file. You can do it with a single small file in a single directory. The file contains the state of a pseudo random number generator. On each request, generate a number, save the new PRNG state into a new temp file in a subdirectory, and rename the temp file over top of the original file. If renaming fails, try the whole process a few more times. This allows multiple processes to serve requests concurrently. Exercise for the reader: avoid re-reading the PRNG state file on retries.
    - Mo3 2y ago
      And how would you invalidate the generated codes after 5 days? And is this even scalable to more than one Postzegelcode in circulation?
    - paulmd 2y ago
      that sounds like a badly home-rolled uuid4 with extra steps. How about instead we just generate a uuid4, insert it into a sqlite file or Postgres database, and then the postzegelcode value is threefry(SECRET,uuid)?

rtpg 2y ago

Is there any context into why this was put into place at the time it was? I would like to understand why this was set up.

jorams 2y ago
I found an article[1] from before it was launched. Translated: > The most important reason for the introduction of the Zegelcode is that about 20% of our customers indicates they don't have a stamp on hand when they want to send something. [1]: https://www.internetkassa.nu/postnl-verwacht-digitaal-frankeren-eerste-helft-van-2013-te-lanceren/ https://www.internetkassa.nu/postnl-verwacht-digitaal-franke...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

filt 2y ago

Sweden has this too: https://www.postnord.se/en/private/sending/letters-and-parcels/digital-stamps/ https://www.postnord.se/en/private/sending/letters-and-parce...

TacticalCoder 2y ago

> Assuming 26 letters and 9 digits (the zero is not used to avoid confusion with the letter O) That is cute. But what about 'G' and '6', 'B' and '8' and the myriad of things that can go SNAFU when handwriting is involved? Heck, even on the official picture here: https://www.postnl.nl/versturen/postzegels/postzegels-kopen/postzegelcode/ https://www.postnl.nl/versturen/postzegels/postzegels-kopen/... The handwriting '1' looks like a 'L'. Does the system allow for one mistake? Does it automatically try to replace '1' with 'L' and see if it matches a valid code? I wonder the actual failure rate is. If you decided to not use '0' to avoid confusion, you've accepted that there shall be confusion. And confusion doesn't just happen with '0' and 'O'. P.S: as a sidenote I know for a fact that at least 30 years ago there were post offices in some EU countries already doing OCR on handwriting, but the ones I've seen were doing it on digits-only, that had to be written on envelopes with pre-printed empty rectangles. It was done for the cities' postcode, to sort the mail automatically.

kazinator 2y ago
A well-formed, hand-written O is indistinguishable from a well-formed, hand-written zero. Literally, no amount of effort will make it clear which one is intended, short of some agreed-upon convention to use a different glyph like a slashed O for zero. This is not true of G and 6 or B and 8. If these are well-formed, they are completely distinct. People who paid for their post code are motivated to write the code clearly, for fear of nondelivery; but no amount of motivation will fix 0 versus O. > The handwriting '1' looks like a 'L'. It certainly does not. Rather, the lower case l is easily confused for the digit 1. This postzegelcode doesn't use lower case. I don't see it mentioned that I is avoided because of 1. The likely reason is that Europeans don't write 1 just as a stick. It starts with an angled upstroke. That upstroke makes it possible to confuse the European 1 with an American 7; but the European 7 has a horizontal stroke across its stem which thwarts that problem. (I addition, a cursive 7's upper horizontal stroke is actually wavy, like a tilde.) Confusion of I, 1 and 7 in European handwriting is next to nil.
- wodenokoto 2y ago
  > The likely reason is that Europeans don't write 1 just as a stick. It starts with an angled upstroke. I'm European, and that's how I write it, but if you look at the link, that's not how they write 1's in the promotional material - Those 1's follow pretty much the stroke I would do for an L, only the foot is shorter and slightly more pointed upward.

jabrown 2y ago

I am from the Netherlands. I think this is an awful and unnecessary innovation. Postage stamps often have pretty pictures on them and I like the act of having to paste one onto the envelope (some of them you have to lick the back of to make them stick). This just seems like another soulless way of making things machine-readable and less human.