4 ms·

Indonesia is trying to block LGBTQIA content from the internet

51 points by giuliomagnifico 2y ago

throwaway44773 2y ago
[flagged]
- ambentzen 2y ago
  > Society has to find a way to promote traditional lifestyles Why? If those lifestyles are so superior why do they need promotion? It's almost like people are not some homogenous blob, but individuals with their own wants and desires.
  - scanny 2y ago
    To be devils advocate here we also have to promote healthy eating, getting screened for cancer, or smoking PSAs. Just because something might be classified as "superior" doesn't mean that it will always self promote or be accessible.
  - TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
    Further, if we engage with the likely meaning here, I would also pose the question: why do we need to promote a “lifestyle” at all. If being straight is an inherent trait that isn’t a choice, surely promotion is pointless. If it is a choice then the question still stands. If sexual orientation is chosen, what difference would it make what someone chooses in the first place? They have a right to determine that for themselves. But of course sexual orientation isn’t a choice, so promoting heterosexuality seems like it would be little more than a “the majority of us exist!” marketing campaign. Which seems bizarre to me.
- andsoitis 2y ago
  I don’t know that it is logical to say “promote traditional lifestyles” (i.e. plural) but then also say “don’t promote alternative lifestyles”. What is the set of traditional lifestyles? Why that set? Who gets to choose what all the valid traditional lifestyles are?
  - filoleg 2y ago
    Yeah, I was confused by the same thing. It is one thing to promote drugs/alcohol/etc., but what does “traditional lifestyle” even mean. I have a strong feeling that the answer to this will heavily depend on the region. And for countries that already have similar legislation (which is mostly just various flavors of religious states for now), I will just say, I neither vibe with their idea of “traditional” (women not being able to drive a car or walk in public without a male chaperone, stiffling freedom of speech because badmouthing the politicians and higherups, etc.) nor would want to live there for plenty of practical reasons beyond that. And for non-theocratical states, we got Russia with their prison sentences for “promoting alternative homosexualism lifestyles” (with “promoting” including just silly stuff like displaying the pride flag or posting a pro-lgbtq tweet). All of those things are done in favor of “promoting traditional lifestyles” (or in favor of “discouraging ‘harmful’ non-traditional lifestyles”, depending on what those governments feel like going with on a particular day). And all I can say is that those places just seem like they would be plain sucky to live in[0] for many reasons beyond that, with their “traditional lifestyle”-related legislation being just a symptom of the larger incompetence and idiocy. 0. Had about 15 years of experience formerly living in one of those places, and can confirm that it sucks beyond belief. And it wasn’t even that bad compared to other more religious and authoritarian places.
    - surfingdino 2y ago
      > but what does “traditional lifestyle” even mean. It's the lifestyle that facilitates control over population in a dictatorial/theocratic regime.
- squigz 2y ago
  What sort of "alternative lifestyles" are you referring to, and what are the negative effects of them? What are some "traditional lifestyles", and how might you suggest they be promoted?
  - turtle_heck 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - twixfel 2y ago
      Hmm I am not transgender and I am quite sure of it so it's not everyone as you claim.
      - TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
        I am also not transgender. I find it interesting that some population of people invariably write off as a “fad”, trend, affectation, acting, or what-have-you, a population that has gained greater visibility than they previously had. We have been seeing that same pattern for awhile now, particularly as people learn that the spectrum of identity and expression doesn’t end with “just” being gay.
        twixfel 2y ago
        I agree it makes no sense. Nothing about being transgender looks remotely enjoyable or trendy. Hard to imagine someone would just go along with it for fun. The only thing I am skeptical of is those who are looking to increasingly subdivide gender identities into finer and finer niches, but in a way that nevertheless has no impact on their lives whatsoever. That's a whole lot of distinctions without differences to me, but that does not apply with transgenderism.
        Izkata 2y ago
        > Nothing about being transgender looks remotely enjoyable or trendy. Hard to imagine someone would just go along with it for fun. This just sounds like you haven't encountered what they're referring to. For an introduction, check out some of the definitions on here: https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities (and this list isn't anywhere close to compete compared to some I've seen in the past, just the easiest to find with a quick search) Many of these also come with special pronouns you're supposed to use instead of him/her, to the point where even the nonspecific "they" is considered offensive. It is absolutely a fad thing among the left in the US.
- Spivak 2y ago
  I like how the presumably straight sibling comments don't seem to know what the "alternative lifestyles" dog whistle means in context here. There is a long history of saying being lgbt is a lifestyle choice. I'm genuinely fascinated by what negative effects you perceive of people who are gay, trans, ace being able to live their lives openly instead of being forced to pretend otherwise and ultimately failing at it. What is gained by society by forcing a lesbian into a straight marriage? You've just created a sexless marriage with extra steps.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    For sure, especially under an article about LGBT, its super clear what this means
  - twixfel 2y ago
    We all know what the "traditional lifestyles" means and that the OP is clearly anti-LGBT but we have to pretend that we don't know what it means and ask them to explain. >What is gained by society by forcing a lesbian into a straight marriage? You've just created a sexless marriage with extra steps. I think the point is than in Islam women have no choice but to sex with their husbands without a "good reason". For men it is marginally less obliged, but still expected that they should have sex with their women (though it is not as explicitly urgent, it seems, as for women to spread their legs when required). Still, having sex with someone who's not really into it sounds fairly unappealing to me.
  - squigz 2y ago
    > I like how the presumably straight sibling comments don't seem to know what the "alternative lifestyles" dog whistle means in context here. There is a long history of saying being lgbt is a lifestyle choice. I'm pretty sure we all knew that. It's just funnier to get them to say it themselves. Also I aint straight.
- zeta0134 2y ago
  The primary negative effect I felt as a gay man came from the preacher, who felt the need to respond to news about LGBTQIA topics and remind the congregation that I basically wasn't allowed to exist. I had to hide this aspect of myself and pretend to be straight so my Dad (a teacher and a youth minister, in an era where I wasn't legally allowed to exist either) wouldn't lose his job. Once I was able to leave home, and the law was adjusted, and I finally called my Dad to tell him I had my first real crush and was about to ask someone out, he was nothing but supportive and a great weight was lifted. Finally, I didn't have to lie to everyone I knew all the time. I could just be honest. At no time during any of that was I ever truly straight. But I've learned to wear that mask when required. My aspect didn't cause me to take up drugs, or sleep around, or stay in abusive relationships just because I'd finally found the right orientation in a partner. Indeed, I'm currently single and pursuing a career in computer science, because that's a bit more interesting. The only thing "coming out" changed was allowing me to stop lying all the time. I was just able to finally be me. That's it. That's all I ever wanted: to stop pretending to be something I'm not.
- haunter 2y ago
  > Society has to find a way to promote traditional lifestyles Whenever I hear “traditional lifestyle” it usually means patriarchy and keeping women as slaves
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    Or in this case, forcing the gays back into the closet
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
jacknews 2y ago
"a proposed law that would force LGBTQIA people into conversion therapy." I'm all for countries and populations determining their own norms and cultures to a large degree, but that's outrageous; it's 2024.
- r0ckarong 2y ago
  > it's 2024 Depends on which calendar. There is nothing more powerful than the human mind when it comes to distorting reality.
- hifromwork 2y ago
  I agree with you, but do you know that there are at least 7 countries right now where capital punishment is a possible penalty for same-sex sexual conduct[1]? And this number does not necessarily go down, for example Uganda introduced death pentalty for (aggravated) homosequality in 2023. [1]And 5 more countries where the law regarding death penalty for homosequality is unclear.
  - add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
    With our help. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/19/africa-uganda-evangelicals-homophobia-antigay-bill/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/19/africa-uganda-evangelic...
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Remember Indonesia is an overwhelmingly Islamic nation - in fact the largest one by population. Blasphemy is illegal. Even complaining about the volume of speakers playing the call to prayer for Muslims will get you arrested. Some areas like Aceh explicitly follow Islamic law (like with sharia courts). The country’s beliefs and attitudes towards things like LGB are deeply influenced by Islam. So it isn’t really surprising even though it’s appalling.
  - mrala 2y ago
    If you are trying to imply that the issue is precipitated by Islam, it’s important to note the beliefs and attitudes that you are mentioning are not endemic to Islam.
surfingdino 2y ago
[flagged]
- ncr100 2y ago
  Being a nutcase means certain rules don't apply, and others do. Being in power offers the opportunity to apply this discordant world-view on nonadherants. The solution is regulation. Human rights, formal ones.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    International regulation simply can't work, especially for these types of issues. No one will go to war to impose human rights on another nation, and even if they did, it would hurt both populations much, much, much, much more than the peace time violations of human rights. War is hell, so it can only ever be a weapon of last resort. Even economic sanctions have a very poor track record of effecting any kind of change in a society or regime - they typically only hurt the poor, which minority groups who you are trying to help often are.
    - squigz 2y ago
      What sort of things do you think work?
      - tsimionescu 2y ago
        In the extreme, extending refuge to minorities fleeing the oppressive regime. More long term, advocacy, both diplomatic and popular, for the cause of said minorities. Material and moral support for local movements doing the same. The gay pride movement is an excellent example. Ultimately, if a society doesn't adjust its views to accept its members, there's very little you can do. The only thing that works is convincing that society that it should change. Sanctions or wars won't get parents to accept their gays sons or daughters, even if they miraculously succeeded in changing some laws.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Theodores 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

throwaway44773 2y ago

[flagged]

ambentzen 2y ago
> Society has to find a way to promote traditional lifestyles Why? If those lifestyles are so superior why do they need promotion? It's almost like people are not some homogenous blob, but individuals with their own wants and desires.
- scanny 2y ago
  To be devils advocate here we also have to promote healthy eating, getting screened for cancer, or smoking PSAs. Just because something might be classified as "superior" doesn't mean that it will always self promote or be accessible.
- TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
  Further, if we engage with the likely meaning here, I would also pose the question: why do we need to promote a “lifestyle” at all. If being straight is an inherent trait that isn’t a choice, surely promotion is pointless. If it is a choice then the question still stands. If sexual orientation is chosen, what difference would it make what someone chooses in the first place? They have a right to determine that for themselves. But of course sexual orientation isn’t a choice, so promoting heterosexuality seems like it would be little more than a “the majority of us exist!” marketing campaign. Which seems bizarre to me.
andsoitis 2y ago
I don’t know that it is logical to say “promote traditional lifestyles” (i.e. plural) but then also say “don’t promote alternative lifestyles”. What is the set of traditional lifestyles? Why that set? Who gets to choose what all the valid traditional lifestyles are?
- filoleg 2y ago
  Yeah, I was confused by the same thing. It is one thing to promote drugs/alcohol/etc., but what does “traditional lifestyle” even mean. I have a strong feeling that the answer to this will heavily depend on the region. And for countries that already have similar legislation (which is mostly just various flavors of religious states for now), I will just say, I neither vibe with their idea of “traditional” (women not being able to drive a car or walk in public without a male chaperone, stiffling freedom of speech because badmouthing the politicians and higherups, etc.) nor would want to live there for plenty of practical reasons beyond that. And for non-theocratical states, we got Russia with their prison sentences for “promoting alternative homosexualism lifestyles” (with “promoting” including just silly stuff like displaying the pride flag or posting a pro-lgbtq tweet). All of those things are done in favor of “promoting traditional lifestyles” (or in favor of “discouraging ‘harmful’ non-traditional lifestyles”, depending on what those governments feel like going with on a particular day). And all I can say is that those places just seem like they would be plain sucky to live in[0] for many reasons beyond that, with their “traditional lifestyle”-related legislation being just a symptom of the larger incompetence and idiocy. 0. Had about 15 years of experience formerly living in one of those places, and can confirm that it sucks beyond belief. And it wasn’t even that bad compared to other more religious and authoritarian places.
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    > but what does “traditional lifestyle” even mean. It's the lifestyle that facilitates control over population in a dictatorial/theocratic regime.
squigz 2y ago
What sort of "alternative lifestyles" are you referring to, and what are the negative effects of them? What are some "traditional lifestyles", and how might you suggest they be promoted?
- turtle_heck 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - twixfel 2y ago
    Hmm I am not transgender and I am quite sure of it so it's not everyone as you claim.
    - TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
      I am also not transgender. I find it interesting that some population of people invariably write off as a “fad”, trend, affectation, acting, or what-have-you, a population that has gained greater visibility than they previously had. We have been seeing that same pattern for awhile now, particularly as people learn that the spectrum of identity and expression doesn’t end with “just” being gay.
      - twixfel 2y ago
        I agree it makes no sense. Nothing about being transgender looks remotely enjoyable or trendy. Hard to imagine someone would just go along with it for fun. The only thing I am skeptical of is those who are looking to increasingly subdivide gender identities into finer and finer niches, but in a way that nevertheless has no impact on their lives whatsoever. That's a whole lot of distinctions without differences to me, but that does not apply with transgenderism.
        Izkata 2y ago
        > Nothing about being transgender looks remotely enjoyable or trendy. Hard to imagine someone would just go along with it for fun. This just sounds like you haven't encountered what they're referring to. For an introduction, check out some of the definitions on here: https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities (and this list isn't anywhere close to compete compared to some I've seen in the past, just the easiest to find with a quick search) Many of these also come with special pronouns you're supposed to use instead of him/her, to the point where even the nonspecific "they" is considered offensive. It is absolutely a fad thing among the left in the US.
Spivak 2y ago
I like how the presumably straight sibling comments don't seem to know what the "alternative lifestyles" dog whistle means in context here. There is a long history of saying being lgbt is a lifestyle choice. I'm genuinely fascinated by what negative effects you perceive of people who are gay, trans, ace being able to live their lives openly instead of being forced to pretend otherwise and ultimately failing at it. What is gained by society by forcing a lesbian into a straight marriage? You've just created a sexless marriage with extra steps.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  For sure, especially under an article about LGBT, its super clear what this means
- twixfel 2y ago
  We all know what the "traditional lifestyles" means and that the OP is clearly anti-LGBT but we have to pretend that we don't know what it means and ask them to explain. >What is gained by society by forcing a lesbian into a straight marriage? You've just created a sexless marriage with extra steps. I think the point is than in Islam women have no choice but to sex with their husbands without a "good reason". For men it is marginally less obliged, but still expected that they should have sex with their women (though it is not as explicitly urgent, it seems, as for women to spread their legs when required). Still, having sex with someone who's not really into it sounds fairly unappealing to me.
- squigz 2y ago
  > I like how the presumably straight sibling comments don't seem to know what the "alternative lifestyles" dog whistle means in context here. There is a long history of saying being lgbt is a lifestyle choice. I'm pretty sure we all knew that. It's just funnier to get them to say it themselves. Also I aint straight.
zeta0134 2y ago
The primary negative effect I felt as a gay man came from the preacher, who felt the need to respond to news about LGBTQIA topics and remind the congregation that I basically wasn't allowed to exist. I had to hide this aspect of myself and pretend to be straight so my Dad (a teacher and a youth minister, in an era where I wasn't legally allowed to exist either) wouldn't lose his job. Once I was able to leave home, and the law was adjusted, and I finally called my Dad to tell him I had my first real crush and was about to ask someone out, he was nothing but supportive and a great weight was lifted. Finally, I didn't have to lie to everyone I knew all the time. I could just be honest. At no time during any of that was I ever truly straight. But I've learned to wear that mask when required. My aspect didn't cause me to take up drugs, or sleep around, or stay in abusive relationships just because I'd finally found the right orientation in a partner. Indeed, I'm currently single and pursuing a career in computer science, because that's a bit more interesting. The only thing "coming out" changed was allowing me to stop lying all the time. I was just able to finally be me. That's it. That's all I ever wanted: to stop pretending to be something I'm not.
haunter 2y ago
> Society has to find a way to promote traditional lifestyles Whenever I hear “traditional lifestyle” it usually means patriarchy and keeping women as slaves
- spencerflem 2y ago
  Or in this case, forcing the gays back into the closet

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

jacknews 2y ago

"a proposed law that would force LGBTQIA people into conversion therapy." I'm all for countries and populations determining their own norms and cultures to a large degree, but that's outrageous; it's 2024.

r0ckarong 2y ago
> it's 2024 Depends on which calendar. There is nothing more powerful than the human mind when it comes to distorting reality.
hifromwork 2y ago
I agree with you, but do you know that there are at least 7 countries right now where capital punishment is a possible penalty for same-sex sexual conduct[1]? And this number does not necessarily go down, for example Uganda introduced death pentalty for (aggravated) homosequality in 2023. [1]And 5 more countries where the law regarding death penalty for homosequality is unclear.
- add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
  With our help. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/19/africa-uganda-evangelicals-homophobia-antigay-bill/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/03/19/africa-uganda-evangelic...
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Remember Indonesia is an overwhelmingly Islamic nation - in fact the largest one by population. Blasphemy is illegal. Even complaining about the volume of speakers playing the call to prayer for Muslims will get you arrested. Some areas like Aceh explicitly follow Islamic law (like with sharia courts). The country’s beliefs and attitudes towards things like LGB are deeply influenced by Islam. So it isn’t really surprising even though it’s appalling.
- mrala 2y ago
  If you are trying to imply that the issue is precipitated by Islam, it’s important to note the beliefs and attitudes that you are mentioning are not endemic to Islam.

surfingdino 2y ago

[flagged]

ncr100 2y ago
Being a nutcase means certain rules don't apply, and others do. Being in power offers the opportunity to apply this discordant world-view on nonadherants. The solution is regulation. Human rights, formal ones.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  International regulation simply can't work, especially for these types of issues. No one will go to war to impose human rights on another nation, and even if they did, it would hurt both populations much, much, much, much more than the peace time violations of human rights. War is hell, so it can only ever be a weapon of last resort. Even economic sanctions have a very poor track record of effecting any kind of change in a society or regime - they typically only hurt the poor, which minority groups who you are trying to help often are.
  - squigz 2y ago
    What sort of things do you think work?
    - tsimionescu 2y ago
      In the extreme, extending refuge to minorities fleeing the oppressive regime. More long term, advocacy, both diplomatic and popular, for the cause of said minorities. Material and moral support for local movements doing the same. The gay pride movement is an excellent example. Ultimately, if a society doesn't adjust its views to accept its members, there's very little you can do. The only thing that works is convincing that society that it should change. Sanctions or wars won't get parents to accept their gays sons or daughters, even if they miraculously succeeded in changing some laws.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Theodores 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]