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Volkswagen to invest up to $5B in Rivian
- mertbio 2y agoThis deal reminded me the deal that Microsoft invested into Apple in 1997. Rivian has been struggling a lot recently (similar to Apple that time) and now they are going to have enough money to become the Apple of EVs while Tesla becoming the Android.
- nox101 2y agoWill Tesla become the Android, vs say BYD? It's starting to feel more like Tesla will be the Nokia/Blackberry of cars.
- msoad 2y agoAmericans do not comprehend how advanced BYD and others are in EV. It's no accident that their government is fighting the import of Chinese cars
- PaulWaldman 2y agoI understand the cost to the end user is much less, but in what ways is their technology more advanced?
- nox101 2y agoCars that change in 10 minutes? https://ev.com/news/byd-and-catl-set-to-introduce-ev-batteries-capable-of-full-charge-in-10-minutes&blogId=3193 https://ev.com/news/byd-and-catl-set-to-introduce-ev-batteri...
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y agoHow would that even be supplied? Megawatt circuits are the domain of industrial factories, not "gas" stations.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> How would that even be supplied? Capacitors.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- andruby 2y agoThe article states that it would need 650KW to charge at 6C rates. Huawei has already announced 600 kW DC fast chargers: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/China-s-Huawei-launches-alliance-for-ultrafast-EV-charging https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/Chi...
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y agoThe bottleneck is the grid not terminal hardware. If a home or small business asks for a multiple MW circuit they're going to be laughed at for preposterousness. Laying harmless gigabit fiber to a new area requires permits, construction, labor, think of what becomes necessary when it's enough electrons to kill a dinosaur.
- cyberax 2y agoThe UI is _miles_ ahead. And they are preparing to release a 1000 km (620 mile) range vehicle.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> in what ways is their technology more advanced? BYD's technology, not so much--they're better at manufacturing cars in degrees compared to Tesla, not an order of magnitude. The magic is at CATL and friends. There is a Cambrian explosion of battery technology in China that doesn't get reported super well in the mainstream press.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y agoWhat's going on with battery technology?
- mensetmanusman 2y agoMostly cost reductions, there isn’t much room in the physics for higher energy density. Eg it will always be less than chemical energy density.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> What's going on with battery technology? Iron [1] and now sodium [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_batte... [2] https://www.electrive.com/2023/11/20/byd-huaihai-move-on-plans-for-sodium-ion-battery-plant/ https://www.electrive.com/2023/11/20/byd-huaihai-move-on-pla...
- defrost 2y agoAdding to the other peer reasons, staggering range of design styles and price points; executive class, cheap fun young cars, utility vehicles, etc.
- richardw 2y agoJust one example: https://www.drive.com.au/news/byd-to-introduce-new-second-gen-1000km-battery-technology/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/byd-to-introduce-new-second-ge... They’re doing a lot of licensing to western companies.
- bpodgursky 2y agoTesla is competitive (sales are not dominant, but OK, in China) but the other US automakers are truly f***.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoIt actually has more to do with war and realpolitik.
- wazoox 2y agoTesla once looked futuristic, but now they're sorely lacking : automatic windscreen wipers still don't work properly (they work perfectly well on my 2005 Ford Focus, thank you), they now lack basic ergonomic features such as a turn signal lever, their "self driving" feature is horribly lagging behind most other makers (constant phantom braking still a recurring problem after years and years, no proper automatic overtaking, inferior speed control and speed limit enforcement, etc).
- ripjaygn 2y ago> their "self driving" feature is horribly lagging behind most other makers (constant phantom braking still a recurring problem after years and years, no proper automatic overtaking, inferior speed control and speed limit enforcement, etc) Who are these makers that allegedly outclass Autopilot/FSD?
- blacksmith_tb 2y agoHaven't ridden in one, but I think Mercedes' Drive Pilot is supposed to be a contender: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/27/23892154/mercedes-benz-drive-pilot-autonomous-level-3-test https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/27/23892154/mercedes-benz-dr...
- ripjaygn 2y agoDrive Pilot just follows the car in front and has several limitations, it doesn't even have overtaking, so I would be surprised since the parent poster says lack of automatic overtaking is a limitation. Drive Pilot: Works only when behind another car, it just follows that car Cannot change lanes Works only under 40MPH Works only in daylight, does not work at night Does not work in rain Works only in traffic jams and heavy traffic Works only on a few pre-approved roads How is the world is FSD "severely lagging behind" this tech when FSD has none of these limitations? Something weird about how the Mercedes tech is hyped up in message forums.
- blacksmith_tb 2y ago
- ripjaygn 2y agoSo far the story has been Tesla being the Apple of EVs(pioneer, small number of premium models, lots of mindshare), BYD being the Samsung(cheaper copy of Tesla), and GM/Ford etc. being the Nokia/Blackberry(legacy volume manufacturers that did not pivot to the new thing in time).
- ralfd 2y agoTesla is at least profitable, while Rivian is losing $30000 with every sold car.
- unshavedyak 2y agoWas. The Gen 2's have a very different internal cost. In theory it's much better, but i don't know if it's been said how much.
- dralley 2y agoThere's also the fact that VW is far behind the competion in electric vehicles and is staring down the barrel of Chinese EVs. A technology sharing agreement is part of this deal, so VW can leverage that to catch up with their own products. Rivian focuses on a different segment of the market from most cars sold by VW Group (trucks, SUVs, the American market in general) so from Rivian's perspective they're not likely to be cannibalized.
- thesumofall 2y agoI don’t think there is much evidence that they are far behind their competition in anything but sales. Efficiency of their latest models is good, software has improved a lot, and they are starting to return to their previous (good enough) quality levels. I think we are quickly approaching the full commoditization of EVs. At similar price points you get the same thing across all manufacturers. Maybe a bit more quality here, some additional software gimmicks over there, and the rest is just marketing, local patriotism, and branding. Add to that a sprinkle of varying regional adaptation
- dralley 2y agoI think the whole vehicle industry is looking at a slightly milder version of the "Kodak problem". That is, the money is oriented towards the service aspects of the industry. Kodak wasn't a camera company, they were a chemical company. Cameras and lenses were a loss-leader for selling film and the equipment and chemicals used to develop it. You can't just swap the products and make a little less money, it changes the entire business model. Likewise a lot of these car companies make money on the long chain of maintenance as much as or moreso than the cars themselves. Electric cars come with a whole new business model. And the core competencies that are required are much different. Less precision machining and more electrical engineering
- magnuspaaske 2y agoI think this is right. I don't have a car but I rent cars periodically and pick based on the UX more than the "tech" features. Most EVs are fast enough and have enough range that it doesn't really make a difference to the driving experience but the UX and all the screens do make a difference. I like the Audi E-tron because I can mostly ignore or turn off the center screen and have everything important in front of me behind the wheel. The center screen on the Polestar 2 is a bit more pronounced but can be muted when switching to the music screen. Teslas and VW EVs have way to much happening in the center screen so I avoid those. It's sad to see Volvo go down the same path but a correction should be in order. Anyways, all the tech is commoditised so you need something else to differentiate yourself. For me that's not a big center display to show how "tech forward" you are, as it ends up suggesting you're anything but.
- PaulWaldman 2y agoWhat is the context where Rivian is Apple and Tesla is Android in this analogy?
- jeffhwang 2y agoThe similarities and differences with the 1997 MS-Apple deal are interesting. Arguably, the $150m that Microsoft invested was less significant than: (1) the vote of confidence to customers, 3rd-party developers, and investors that Apple would survive; (2) the commitment by Microsoft to continue developing/supporting MS Office and IE at a time when Apple did not have iWork equivalents or a browser like Safari yet. Re: (2), even if there were alternatives like ClarisWorks being able to open and share MS Office documents was critical to keeping the Mac alive at that time. Plus, the web was one of the things that helped Apple survive the platform wars (i.e., proprietary document formats, two-sided markets, etc.). And whatever its imperfections, Internet Explorer was becoming the standard as Netscape lost share and this was before Mozilla, Firefox, Safari, or Chrome. the Mac needed a first-class browser and Microsoft committed to providing one for 5 years. In contrast, while the cash, additional market for EV software, and vote of confidence is no doubt very valuable to Rivian, it would be an even more valuable if VW could provide some distribution or other advantages to get Rivian out of it's current hole.
- cyberax 2y agoTesla is Apple. They both have an asshole CEO who thinks that forcing users to adapt to his vision is the best path forward. They make incomprehensibly bad decisions (butterfly keyboard and stalk removal). They both are control freaks, etc. Rivian is also Apple, but it just doesn't have any clout.
- mint2 2y agoMusk’s whims are far worse than Job’s. Cybertruck, gull wing doors, X, S3XY, etc - musk is like a 13 year old middle schooler combined with Apple.
- constantcrying 2y agoSo what does VW get out of it? Anything specific from Rivian that they couldn't get otherwise?
- rasz 2y agoMicrosoft didnt "invest into Apple". Jobs forced Gates to settle multiple lawsuits (including outright stealing code and shipping it in Windows as their own) that if not settled would have killed MS a year later when DOJ pounced https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... https://www.theregister.com/1998/10/29/microsoft_paid_apple_150m/ https://www.theregister.com/1998/10/29/microsoft_paid_apple_... TLDR: Microsoft was stealing with help of Intel, both companies scared by QuickTime positioning Apple as the leader in Multimedia (1991 Adobe Premiere build by ex Quicktime engineer on Mac platform, 1991 Avid ported from Apollo $workstations$ to Mac). When Jobs came back in 1996 he didnt like (or couldnt afford) all the litigation and promptly settled for $ and Microsoft support commitment (Office, IE) in exchange for letting MS save face. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Canyon_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Canyon_Company "David Boies, attorney for the DoJ, noted that John Warden, for Microsoft, had omitted to quote part of a handwritten note by Fred Anderson, Apple's CFO, in which Anderson wrote that "the [QuickTime] patent dispute was resolved with cross-licence and significant payment to Apple." The payment was $150 million." "Microsoft and Intel had been shocked to find that Apple's QuickTime product made digital video on Windows seem like continuous motion, and was far in advance of anything that either of them had, even in a planning stage. The speed was achieved by bypassing Windows' Graphics Display Interface and enabling the application to write directly to the video card. The result was a significant improvement over the choppy, 'slide-show' quality of Microsoft's own efforts. Apple's intention was to establish the driver as a standard for multimedia video imaging, so that Mac developers could sell their applications on the Windows and Mac platforms. Microsoft requested a free licence from Apple for QuickTime for Windows in June 1993, and was refused. In July 1993, the San Francisco Canyon Company entered into an agreement with Intel to deliver a program (codenamed Mario) that would enable Intel to accelerate Video for Windows' processing of video images." "Intel gave this code to Microsoft as part of a joint development program called Display Control Interface." "Canyon admitted that it had copied to Intel code developed for and assigned to Apple. In September 1994, Apple's software was distributed by Microsoft in its developer kits, and in Microsoft's Video for Windows version 1.1d." https://web.archive.org/web/20091006022255/http://www.firingsquad.com/features/alexstjohn/ https://web.archive.org/web/20091006022255/http://www.firing... "FS: What was Microsoft's philosophy or attitude regarding games when you began? Alex St John: Oh, it was completely nonexistent! During that time, their entire focus was on multimedia video, the primary mission of DirectX wasn't to benefit and push gaming, but simply to drive Apple and Quicktime into the ground."
- smlacy 2y ago"Software Defined Vehicles"? Really?
- barelyauser 2y agoWould you rather have Cars as a Service?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> "Software Defined Vehicles" Analogous to software-defined radios [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software-defined_radio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software-defined_radio
- RealityVoid 2y agoExcept it for SDR it makes sense, for automotive, it is an ambiguous term that could mean _anything_. I don't even know how to define a SDV besides the confusing and hand-wavy marketing materials.
- cyberax 2y agoPLEASE, fire the moron in Rivian (the CEO?) who doesn't want to integrate CarPlay/AndroidAuto. Because this moron thinks that users care about Rivian's "experience" or whatever.
- breatheoften 2y agoThe EV charging planning features while route planning still seem pretty necessary with the current level of deployed charging infrastructure (at least in the US) ... I don't think at least CarPlay has anything able to meet the actual need there or even a way to provide something that would ... Maybe a separate map app that ran inside carplay to provide the required featureset?
- cyberax 2y agoExcept that there are Android applications (like ABRP - https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ ) that do planning _better_ than the built-in navigation software in Tesla. > Maybe a separate map app that ran inside carplay to provide the required featureset? Yup. It's a pretty straightforward feature. Heck, I'd write it myself once I get an EV with Android Auto.
- wklauss 2y agoElectric vehicle routing is an option in Apple Maps and I'm assuming in Google Maps as well. A Rivian app could handle the rest. I'm pretty sure Apple would be extremely happy to figure out a way forward. (https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/set-up-electric-vehicle-routing-iphc5e3a4b4b/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/set-up-electric-vehic...) Important to note as well that you can technically support CarPlay and Android Auto just for the infotainment and keep the map function in-house running along with it.
- arlcode 2y agoNot necessarily. I drive an EV and don't have a charger at home so I rely on public infrastructure exclusively. Day to day it or (my the usage patterns) don't change much and after the firstof when and where charging would fit in my schedule (usually while getting groceries each week). For people who drive a lot of different routes or on vacation an dedicated EV mapping feature is nice but so far A Better Route Planer worked just fine (my car has no usable native solution).
- rlewkov 2y agoRivian - circling the drain
- constantcrying 2y agoVolkswagen is also currently building up a direct competitor to Rivian with Scout Motors. What exactly is the goal here? Technology sharing for products?
- cjblomqvist 2y agoI can recommend looking up Options as a strategy. A well known approach, with clear benefits (and downsides ofc).
- constantcrying 2y agoSure, I get that. But I would think that they have a specific goal in mind. One article claims they are interested in the platform, maybe they want that platform for Scout? The last "real" truck VW was a rebranded Ford F-150. It might not make a lot of sense to adapt their current MEB platform for a truck, as it has vastly different requirements compared to the usual VW car.
- hinkley 2y agoAuto groups often target the same market but at different price points with different brands. Audi sedans vs VW sedans for instance. My Jetta got a trickle down drive train from Audi which is one of the main reasons I looked at VW. Are you sure that Scout is targeted at Rivian customers? Or at people who wish they could afford a Rivian and can't?
- constantcrying 2y ago>Are you sure that Scout is targeted at Rivian customers? Almost certainly. I don't think there is any point in making an EV truck for less than a Rivian R3. Trucks are expensive and VW has never tried to compete at the absolute low end. To really undercut Rivian they would need an EV truck at 25k, which is a product which would absolutely suck.
- davkan 2y ago>Trucks are expensive and VW has never tried to compete at the absolute low end. Tell that to the rabbit pickup
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoI live in a wealthy part of Wyoming. Rivians are by a decent shot the most popular EV I see driven by locals. (There is one Cybertruck, but I think it's on Turo and mocking it brings the F-250, EV and Subaru drivers together. Plenty of normal Teslas, though.)
- davkan 2y agoSame down here in the Colorado resort towns. If you don’t wheel or tow a camper I imagine it’ll do whatever else you want. But still I’ve yet to see one with a sled deck or a tailgate pad though so I assume it’s just people who don’t really need a truck at all. I think they’re just for putzing around town. There’s not much options for chargers, and towns and destinations are far apart. I imagine that’s even more true in Wyoming.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> imagine that’s even more true in Wyoming I drove across state a couple weeks ago, Jackson to Laramie and back, and almost every gas station had a couple EV chargers. Granted, I doubt they were fast chargers and they may not have even been working.
- davkan 2y agoI might have been remembering just supercharger availability.
- xhevahir 2y agoHere's hoping they put some of that money into coming up with some less-ugly designs.
- melling 2y agoPeople seem to like the designs. My neighbor has had one for over a year. I’ve seen a few more around town recently.
- joecool1029 2y agoWorse than being ugly, the Playskool style construction of only a few major parts makes them cost a fortune to repair from minor fender benders. I'm not sure what's had more of an impact on increasing insurance premiums, this or Kia/Hyundai's support for struggling car thieves.
- sliken 2y agoI've heard this before, but when I dig in it seems like it's not true. Newer cars (gas or EV) are more complicated, more crowded, more sensors, more cables, etc. Even replacing a bumper is labor intensive, often requires messing with sensors, wiring harnesses, repainting, integrating new sensors into the car, debugging resulting problems, etc. As a result that it's becoming increasingly easy to "total" a car in collisions that would have been repaired a decade ago. If you damage a major part of the chassis you get totaled, regardless if it was 25 welded pieces or 1 cast piece.
- constantcrying 2y agoVW? They fired the head designer who did the ID.3/ID.4 abominations. The seat version of the ID.3 actually looks okay. Rivians look very good though.
- nielsbot 2y agoI like them? Especially the R3 if that ever makes it to production. https://rivian.com/r3 https://rivian.com/r3
- titfucker 2y ago[flagged]
- neogodless 2y agoA bit of irony in history: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29247594 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29247594 EV maker Rivian eclipses Volkswagen in value while Lucid overtakes Ford (ft.com) Nov 16, 2021
- oblio 2y agoThose valuations didn't make any sense. Even Tesla's valuation still doesn't. Tesla is still valued at 2x Toyota: https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/largest-automakers-by-market-cap/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/largest-automakers... and then at least 5-10x what companies that actually make a lot of cars are valued. Tesla should probably be valued at something like #3 or #4, their market value needs to crater by at least 50%, more like 80%, to reflect their real long term standing.
- 1970-01-01 2y agoRivian needs that extra cash, and VW needs their EV software. This deal will work out nicely for both of them.
- ncrmro 2y agoLucid is posed to become the Apple of Electric cars
- neogodless 2y agoIn the smartphone analogy, I'd relate Lucid to Sony, who makes some really awesome phones, but damn are they expensive. I've been wanting an Experia for years but can never convince myself the price is worth it over a OnePlus.
- Tiktaalik 2y agoKind of feels like Rivian is giving away a hell of a lot to VW for only $5B. They must be really unsure they can make it to R2 launch. The really challenging part for the old car companies has been the software and that was Rivian's edge. Now they've given that way and have to compete with VW on purely the hardware side that the old car companies are already good at.
- AtlasBarfed 2y agoWhither the bezos billions?
- elAhmo 2y agoThey are also losing a hell of a lot of money - 1 billion in the last year. On a bit more than 50k shipped vehicles, that is around USD 20K loss per vehicle. And it is a 15 year old company, not a new startup.