15 ms·

Microsoft removes documentation for switching to a local account in Windows 11

633 points by redbell 2y ago

varispeed 2y ago
Bait and switch. It's a shame that toothless regulators can't do anything about it. Microsoft should received such a large fine, they should end up on the brink of bankruptcy.
- DaiPlusPlus 2y ago
  > It's a shame that toothless regulators can't do anything about it There's no law or regulation that requires computer makers to always allow operation and set-up while offline. ...I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach, but a reasonable alternative would be to require Microsoft to sell Windows LTSC to anyone who asks for it, not just Software Assurance and MSDN Subscribers.
  - mihaic 2y ago
    > I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach Why? Do you think it would lead to a better or worse world?
    - chii 2y ago
      overreach of regulations leads to a worse world. Your options are to simply not use microsoft windows. it is a cost that is borne by you (ala the switching cost). There can be no such an option where you get to keep what you have, but also legislate exactly what you desire, without paying any of the costs.
      - mihaic 2y ago
        I agree with the principle of overreach being wrong. I'm just asking why you'd think it would be an overreach in this case, when the entire world basically has 3 real choices for OS: Windows, MacOS and Linux, and a lot of the business world is bound by legacy reasons to Windows. I understand that there are downsides to over-regulating, but there are also downsides to under-regulating.
  - graemep 2y ago
    No specific law, but competition laws are quite generic in their requirements so it is possible that they do need to allow users that much control over their machines.
  - outofpaper 2y ago
    >having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach HOW? Until now we haven't needed a law because OS developers haven't been this brazen. In any case there are likely actually a few laws that can be used to litigate the you shouldn't need to be online to install and setup a computer. I'll bet that if they don't fix it themselves a class action will be incoming n citing privacy or child safety or maybe some other laws.
    - immibis 2y ago
      Hasn't Apple always been this brazen, and never been punished for it? Google phones too. Apple's current punishment is for something else.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      Why would there be a law covering such a specific and legally unimportant detail? And do you really want to live under a government that regulates everything in such specific detail? Microsoft can choose to support or not support offline accounts. Users can decide if they care and if they'd rather use something other than Windows. What's the problem exactly?
      - temac 2y ago
        The problem could be abuse of a dominant position. Maybe Mac has now a market share good enough so that MS can pretend they are not in a dominant position in this sector, although if all it takes for an industry to abuse their users is that they all commit it together, each with their still high market share, that would also be an issue for citizens. Esp. in duopoly cases.
        _heimdall 2y ago
        But again, why should the government regulate this? We don't have a fundamental right to own and use computers, or to offline accounts for our computers. What legal line could be drawn to allow the government to regulate this without regulating all kinds of product and business decisions? Would it be reasonable for them to regulate what colors of crayons must be included in ever box of Crayola crayons? And if not, what is the legal boundry allowing them to say what features an OS has without allowing the crayon regulation?
  - gostsamo 2y ago
    You can have a regulation requiring that devices are not dependent on internet services and that people can manage them themselves. This is consumer protection 101 where people are protected from predatory business practices.
  - lozenge 2y ago
    The number of auto opt in updates clearly violates privacy law. The ease of accidentally agreeing and the inability to view contracts before purchase violates consumer law.
  - pndy 2y ago
    > I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach Honestly, no - it wouldn't be considering that for many decades we could use Windows without being connected to Microsoft cloud services. At the moment MS is "only" enforcing an online account during OOBE.* The next step will be an unavoidable Windows-as-as-service product with "subscribe to remove ads and unlock xyz feature" - that's the goal they're heading for years. They could do as simple as having two versions of OS: Windows Free with ads, telemetry, mandatory online account and a paid Windows Pro with all these limitations gone, with an offline account and more control for the end-user. And that's what the regulators, govt's agencies should really make happen. Sadly they prefer working over content scanning and damaging encryption, violating our privacy while pleasing entertainment industry with wild goose-chasing pirates. [*] - last time I check in W10, singing out right after OOBE and reverting to a local account still puts residual traces all around the profile to the point that you never are truly signed out.
- cladopa 2y ago
  As someone who has used Windows only minimally in the last 20 years (mainly for CAD and 3D) I do not understand why people need Governments to "protect" them against abuse while they continue using the abusing system. In the past it took a lot of work to use alternatives. Today it is so easy.
  - jojobas 2y ago
    Because we hired the government to do it. In a large domain of things windows is still a monopoly.
  - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
    Because the government is the people. Its a democracy.
  - zelphirkalt 2y ago
    Easy, as long as you are not forced to use this spyware on the job. Or some specific proprietary file format or specific things that alternative tools do not yet have. Easy, as long as you are a technical user, who is willing to invest time in learning alternative tools and also willing to sometimes sacrifice some time to get appropriate results using alternative software than the mainstream Windows tools. A lot is possible using other OS and alternative tooling, but it takes commitment and possibly time to learn. Many people are not willing to relearn tools of their professions or even for their hobbies. It really takes an open minded and willing person to listen to their engineering friend and give other tools chances and time and potentially even make a jump to a command line mindset. Most people, compared to software developers and engineers, are almost computer illiterates. They are happy, when the thing turns on and looks as it always looks and they see some familiar icon for a web browser. Probably never before has the need for educating people about computers and what they can do with them been so huge. The resulting incentives from not educating people about such have terrible results for our whole industry/profession.
    - 999900000999 2y ago
      To be fair. Linux tends to cause strange issues if you get unlucky. Within the last year I've had to just try a different distro since Ubuntu didn't support my hardware. On a different PC I'm on Mint now. Years upon years ago I gave someone a PC with Ubuntu installed. A week later he just asked how do I install League of Legends. The simple answer is install Windows. 90% of people don't want you to "educate" them about why struggling with the Linux CLI is a better use of their time than whatever else they had planned.
xlii 2y ago
Geez, the more I read about it the more I think about migrating my gaming machine to something like Pop_OS. I heard people are having great experience, and Steam through Steam Deck has considerably improved gaming on Linux experience. I think I get it - there are plenty of people using Windows as their primary OS and they want bells and whistles while not caring about telemetry. But just.. let people disable things. IMO fact, that Microsoft is pushing spyware on their users and make it harder and harder to disable it is much more important topic than EU focusing on Apple (which is monopoly inside their ecosystem, but not a provider of "default" software used in offices etc.)
- themoonisachees 2y ago
  I've done that. I kept a windows install on the side for the few games that don't have a permissive enough anticheat, but I basically never use it anymore since The Finals has allowed Proton. It's going great.
  - dudul 2y ago
    Same. I have a dedicated gaming machine with windows 10 where I do nothing except games. Still trying to delay the upgrade to 11 as long as I can though.
- masklinn 2y ago
  Yeah I’m looking at building a new machine because mine is getting very long in the tooth (although I don’t play very demanding games anyway), I’ve been waffling about using linux and proton for it even though my gaming PC has been windows since forever, I think at this point it’s petty much a done deal.
  - Zhyl 2y ago
    You can also dual boot and/or swap out hard drives. It took me a goodly while to get immersed and comfortable with Linux, so I'd definitely plan a discovery and/or transition phase before hard switching over.
speedylight 2y ago
Switching to a Mac was one of the best decisions I ever made because of crap like this. The only thing that will ever make me use windows again is GTA 6!
- portaouflop 2y ago
  Gaming is horrible on Mac. Also I don’t like how they patronize their users. I for one run an old win10 just for gaming and some legacy software. Will keep until EOL of win10 and then check alternatives
  - dewey 2y ago
    > Gaming is horrible on Mac. Just like an Linux is horrible for doing video editing, not sure that comparison makes sense. Pick the right system for your workload.
    - maven29 2y ago
      >Just like an Linux is horrible for doing video editing Doesn't Davinci Resolve run well on Linux? I've heard most VFX and Animation work is done on Linux workstations and render farms. Really it's just the absence of Adobe and a few beginner-friendly tools, I'd say. https://www.phoronix.com/news/VFX-Animation-Linux-Recommends https://www.phoronix.com/news/VFX-Animation-Linux-Recommends
      - tombert 2y ago
        I think Linux is used extensively for the hyper-professional stuff, but those programs cost $10,000+ and really aren't meant for consumers. I haven't done video editing on Linux for awhile, Lightworks is generally pretty ok, but I don't really know of any equivalent to After Effects or Apple Motion available on Linux, at least in the consumer space. I don't really do enough interesting stuff with video for that to bother me but I suspect that could be a blocker for a lot of people.
  - DaSHacka 2y ago
trollied 2y ago
Large thread from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301
mythz 2y ago
User hostile abuses like this is what has finally pushed me off the Windows spyware/admil after 25+ years of using Windows as my primary Desktop. There's still some rough edges but overall Fedora 40 is an amazing Desktop OS which was easy to recreate all my dev tools including: .NET 8, VSCode, JB Toolbox/Rider/DataGrip/etc, GH CLI/Desktop, Docker/lazydocker, Ollama, AWS CLI, Discord, Obsidian, with PostgreSQL/MySQL/SQL Server/Redis running in Docker, effortlessly installed node/bun/go/python with mise, even all my major titled Windows games are working under Steam/Proton which was a pleasant surprise. With Windows 10 nearing EOL I believe Linux Desktop is at the turning point for market share now that Microsoft is turning the crank with Windows 11 and turning it into an ad/spyware marketing channel for their Apps and cloud services.
- mrjin 2y ago
  Installed Fedora 40 on a new Ryzen 8740u machine, I cannot believe it that everything working by default, video, audio, even sleeping working like a charm.
  - mythz 2y ago
    It flies on my new AMD 7800X3D custom build! Fedora 40/Wayland worked beautifully out-of-the-box with buttery smooth DE animations which unfortunately started flickering after installing NVidia's proprietary drivers which should be fixed with explicit sync [1] in NVidia's latest 560 drivers which is now available in KDE Plasma 6.1 update, hopefully it'll be available for Gnome in a system update soon - looking forward to running Wayland again. [1] https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2024/04/05/explicit-sync.html https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2024/04/05/explicit-sync...
    - darkteflon 2y ago
      Did you consider Pop_OS? What made you choose Fedora? I went with Pop but I’ve always been curious about Fedora and really impressed that Wayland is working so well for you on Nvidia.
      - 2y ago
gadders 2y ago
"Dear user, You have engaged in wrong-think, so we have disabled your windows account and deleted all your docs in the cloud. Regards, Microsoft."
- jojobas 2y ago
  They could bitbleach the local drive too for all you know.
mrjin 2y ago
Doesn't matter any more to me. I'm replacing my Windows installation with Linux, 3 done, 4 to go.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
stuaxo 2y ago
This is annoying, even though I am mostly a Linux user I still use Windows occasionally.
delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
I wish Microsoft didn't make local account creation so hard. One big reason I want a local account is so that my user profile in `C:\Users` is my full first name with a Capital first character, i.e. `C:\Users\Username`. Signing in with an online account in the out-of-box experience means the user profile is truncated to 5 characters and begins with a lowercase character, i.e. `C:\Users\usern`[1]. This has been the behaviour since Windows 8. Additionally, Microsoft's decision to plague Windows with advertisements and Copilot was terrible. Windows is otherwise a damn good OS, and I wish the engineers had a say over the marketing and Copilot departments at MS. I also wish the UI/UX department didn't suddenly decide that macOS was a shining bastion of good desktop UX, i.e. favouring icons over text. I'm going to link another comment of mine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40541721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40541721 After setting up I log in to OneDrive and Microsoft anyway; I have an Office 365 subscription (the competition here absolutely sucks) and I'd like my game achievements in XBox Live. I still use Windows, and I probably will continue to use it despite all this. Unlike the rest of the commenters here, I actually like using and writing for Windows. Desktop-on-Linux is broken if you have any reasonable multi-monitor HiDPI set-up with an NVIDIA GPU. I personally don't care which company/entity is responsible; as an end-user, it is broken, full stop. I'm also not fond of the OS-as-an-IDE mentality; I like a right proper IDE with a green play button and red circles. I was never comfortable with the command-line, and I remain so, having been entirely raised on Windows. Proton is nice, but what's nicer is never having to bother about compatibility because one is running the platform the game was written on and for. I faffed around with macOS and I use it at work, but writing programs for Macs is ridiculously painful (and dare I say, expensive) after Apple introduced the requirement to sign + notarise stuff. I'm also not a big fan of the post-OS X Lion workflow when the 'Save As' button was removed. [1]: https://superuser.com/questions/1148991/why-does-windows-10-truncate-the-user-name https://superuser.com/questions/1148991/why-does-windows-10-...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- amanzi 2y ago
  "One big reason I want a local account is so that my user profile..." Yes! This sounds like a minor thing, but this is my number one reason why I always create a local account before adding any cloud features. If I sign in with a Microsoft account during setup my user profile is in "C:\Users\stuar" which drives me nuts. The easiest way around this whole issue is to just sign in with a Microsoft account during set up, but once logged in, create yourself a local admin account and log in with that, and then delete the first account that was created. I find this easier rather than trying to work around the initial set up process.
davidguetta 2y ago
laugh in linux
imchillyb 2y ago
Using Microsoft products is like waking up and finding someone’s hand down our pants. And, instead of speaking to law enforcement we move into the abuser’s bedroom and stop wearing underwear. Makes perfect sense.
broknbottle 2y ago
I’ve got a dedicated windows sffpc for games running Windows 11. IMO, it’s a terrible OS for a dedicated gaming box or htpc. I constantly have to switch from controller to a keyboard and touchpad because of new settings, random pop-up notifications, etc. after updates I’ll find disabled things that were re-enabled or new “features” that require me to disable because everything is auto opt-in… I had auto login enabled for a long time before it randomly stopped working and somehow the host had switched from local to Microsoft account login. Attempts to switch back resulted in a weird semi-broken state. I just left it as Microsoft login and found a way to re-enable auto-login with the Microsoft account. Windows 10 was pretty easy to convert to a htpc or arcade box. Windows 11 not so much, feels like I’m running a rolling release run by someone who doesn’t care about user experience
politelemon 2y ago
> Macs, iPhones, and iPads will all let you complete the setup process without signing in, though you do have to know which buttons to click IME it's very difficult, and for intents and purposes here from a user perspective, it is the exact same thing. Further we've found it's also impossible to create an account without handing over credit card details. Please call it what it is instead of wringing your hands - dark patterns.
- BigJono 2y ago
  Thank you, the amount of people that defend this sort of stuff is insane. Quacks like a dark pattern to me. I just got done setting up my 3rd work Macbook in about 8 years and every single time the credit card thing gets me. Back and forth through the app store setup 4-5 times, about to finally cave and add a personal credit card into a work laptop because I can't figure out how the fuck to install something and my team is waiting for me to get setup, then on the 5th go round I finally figure out that the credit card ribbon has a "none" icon. They know full fucking well that every single person on the planet reads a ribbon of credit card icons as "visa, mastercard, blah blah blah blah". If that's not intentional I'll eat my fucking desk.
criddell 2y ago
I wonder why they have to do it this way? Why not make having an account so useful that people want it? The fact that so many people go to extraordinary lengths to not have an account indicates a problem with their approach.
yourusername 2y ago
If you're not going to buy their cloud services Microsoft doesn't want you as a customer anyway. My 9 year old Windows PC keeps nagging for me to "finish setting up", because there is no way not using onedrive is your actual intention right?
- LegitShady 2y ago
  So does my iPhone but that's somehow ok?
  - astura 2y ago
    PayPal few months ago prompted me to "finish setting up my account." ...For an account has been open for 23 years.
  - macNchz 2y ago
    I don’t see where that comment was giving Apple a pass. They are indeed really egregious in upselling iCloud, in my opinion. The fact they sell devices with undersized, non-user-upgradable base model storage and default to storing lots of stuff in iCloud so it winds up filling up is pretty blatant. I’ve had to help a number of friends and family who kept getting iCloud storage full messages on their iPhones because they didn’t realize that their Desktop folder on their Mac had been slurped up into iCloud by some update, and was full of large files they didn’t care about accessing on their phone.
  - endisneigh 2y ago
    Why do people do this? Literally no mention or relevance to apple or iPhone, nor approval of that behavior yet the comparison is made anyway
    - Sharlin 2y ago
      I guess whataboutism is a rhetorical technique approximately as old as verbal communication.
    - LegitShady 2y ago
YPPH 2y ago
In the enterprise, I'm convinced the effort to move people away from Active Directory Domain Services to Azure Active Directory is also a backwards step. For an enterprise without extensive working from home, the new model seems to create at least as many problems as it solves.
moqster 2y ago
Since rufus wasn't mentioned here: https://rufus.ie/de/ https://rufus.ie/de/ You can create an win 11 iso with some custom settings (e.g. "remove requirement for an online Microsoft account) edit: ok, its already mentioned in the article, sorry :o
holoduke 2y ago
They also have dark mechanisms to restore certain settings. Like default browser and also security settings. I am a person who likes to disable everything. No ms anti virus, no ms security, no uac. Nothing. I want everything to be disabled. Absolutely required when you work on cracks and hacks. Annoying stupid Microsoft keeps enabling their realtime protection crippleware. Despite settings, registry changes. Very annoying.
999900000999 2y ago
The most amazing part of this is Windows doesn't care if it can't detect any network devices. You're just stuck in a loop. Luckily I was able to bridge my phones internet connection. Then in Windows it was able to start installing device drivers.
api 2y ago
Our kids like Minecraft. If it wasn’t for that there would be no Windows in the house.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  Runs well on a Mac if you use something like PrismLauncher with the various performance mods. (but you don't really get stuff like shaders)
- tapoxi 2y ago
  The normal release of Minecraft is Java, so it'll run anywhere. The C++ rewrite depends on Windows APIs, and it is much less flexible/moddable than the Java version. It does support playing with consoles and mobile, though.
_joel 2y ago
Maybe this year will finally be the year of Linux on the desktop... :)
belter 2y ago
Yesterday 274 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301
b3ing 2y ago
They do these things slowly and hoping no one notices. More and more intrusive, the dimmer the frog of losing your privacy and slowly add ads. It might take 10 years but you better believe AI will train on your data for their benefit and profit
bdnavf 2y ago
Apart from obvious privacy and GDPR issues, is this not also an anti-trust issue? At some point OS vendors were forced to point to alternative browsers. Should the setup not also point to competitors like rsync.net?
replete 2y ago
The recovery commandline solution did not work for me. What did work was using no@thanks.com with a random password, which is a locked account, which then allowed me to create a local account.
gardaani 2y ago
The Internet Wayback Machine has archived the instructions how to convert a Microsoft account into a local account: https://web.archive.org/web/20240612104753/https:/support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/change-from-a-local-account-to-a-microsoft-account-395203bf-9f1b-eb24-b042-5b8dae6c1d20 https://web.archive.org/web/20240612104753/https:/support.mi...
- HumblyTossed 2y ago
  That's cool. But it's not enough. Most people don't even know about the wayback machine.
  - userbinator 2y ago
    After that massive lawsuit, I think they got a lot more publicity (both good and bad.)
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - sombrero_john 2y ago
      Most people don't know about the massive lawsuit.
  - archon810 2y ago
    But other sites exist where you could look up this information and find a guide.
    - HumblyTossed 2y ago
      The point is that you have to know to even look it up.
- everybodyknows 2y ago
  And how many revs on before they don't work any more?
_benj 2y ago
I’ve been leaning towards using windows server for the few use cases that I need windows. The performance of it running on libvirt/qemu is indistinguishable, for me, to baremetal. License is a bit of a challenge but with the 180 trail days and how little I actually use it I can afford to do a fresh installation every few months and be ok. It’s kind of sad given than windows itself, at least the core OS used in windows server is rock solid… but when you go to the user offerings of windows 10/11 is such a stark contrast and crappy/unstable experience!
- unethical_ban 2y ago
  Check out massgrave.dev - helps with licensing. It's hosted on GitHub so it must be fine! :)
resource_waste 2y ago
I tried to make an account for my kid. The Windows never could load the box. The quality of Windows is poor. Fedora is actually a great OS. Windows is among the Debian/Ubuntu/Mint tiers of OS, kind of crappy but kind of works.
polairscience 2y ago
A funny thing I always notice about these sorts of discussions, where a lot of folks identify this particular offense as the final line that is harmful... (which for the record I understand). Everyone in the Linux community has known this would be the outcome since forever. There have been a million small abuses on the road to here. And I get that everyone has their reasons for using Windows and other proprietary software but the strangulation was plain as day. So: For all the flack that folks here give militant believers such as Stallman et. al., you can thank them and every other FOSS dev for keeping the alternative alive. Imagine a world where there was no alternative. You don't deserve to have your attention hijacked or to be forced into a cloud contract just because you want to use your hardware. Hate to say we told you so but you can come to the fold anyway. Welcome to freedom.
- tombert 2y ago
  > But for all the flack that folks here give militant believes like Stallman I was as critical as anyone over Stallman until the Snowden leaks happened. It felt clear to me that these tech companies will very happily get rid of our privacy the second it's convenient for them, and while I should have known that before, I guess I brushed that off as paranoid thinking. I still use a fair amount of proprietary software and web services, such is the way in 2024, but I try and be much more aware of what information I'm sharing and storing. Once my current Macbook dies or once the Linux ports for the T2 Macs is actually usable, I'll move to a proper Linux distro and be rid of most of the Apple ecosystem in my workflow.
davidgerard 2y ago
Even my gamer kid is asking about dual-booting or moving to Linux when Windows 10 goes EOL next year. (They're quite capable of running a Linux box, it's the games and Office 365 Full Version [which doesn't do well in Wine] when LibreOffice won't quite do the job. They've heard the good news about Proton. But I think it's a sign that Microsoft is repelling the gamer kids too.)
simianparrot 2y ago
Windows 10 is my final Windows. When it's out of support I'm switching to some Linux distro and not looking back. I've already experimented a lot with Proton on my Steam Deck and it's been great, and there's no other software I need anymore that can't be run on Linux acceptably.
jedrek 2y ago
It's interesting to watch the arc of Microsoft being the big baddie, transitioning to being a good dude that the open source community has embraced, back to being horrible. Except they've gone from being horrible to developers, to being horrible to normal, non-technical users.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Old MS was evil but at least they were intimidating and impressive. New MS is pretty pathetic.
superultra 2y ago
A long long time ago as a poor college student, I signed up to get a “free PC.” You got a shitty packard bell tower for signing away your privacy and allowing a bunch of ads annd telemetry exist in the OS. It really wasn’t that intrusive and eventually the company folded and I got a free (shitty) ad-free pc out of it. I’m a Mac user now but when I pull up windows 11 on my kid’s or wife’s laptop, it feels like that free-pc dot com again, only it’s in every person’s PC. I’m genuinely shocked at the amount of trash that barrages a common user in windows, and shocked that Microsoft gets away with it. My 14 year old gets barraged with not just co-pilot but a bunch of news and trash clickbait that is straight inappropriate for kids to see. I’ve had to remove it all twice but with every significant update, somehow my settings get reversed and we’re back at square one. I tried even using local accounts but it causes significant issues in the OS. If you’d told me in 1999 that free-pc.com was the dystopian digital future we’d all be living in, I’d have laughed you out of the room - but that’s exactly what we have. The only difference is that the PC isn’t free. We are.
- jb1991 2y ago
  Not only do I agree with you, I actually think you have sugarcoated it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - cvadict 2y ago
    Speaking of sugar coatings, have you tried Candy Crush Saga 365 yet? I've already pinned it in your start menu favorites for convenience.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    Agreed on the sugarcoating. My mother installed Windows 11 on a lab computer and had to call me for tech support for the first time in 20 years because she couldn't figure out how to do the most basic things. This is a PhD physicist who has been programming Fortran and Python since the 1990s and taught her parents how to use Ubuntu as their daily driver, yet she was completely stumped by Windows 11. It's been a daily struggle for her since. Sadly all I could say was "yeah, that's why I use Linux"
bantunes 2y ago
There is no downside to MS's increasing enshittification of Windows. If people keep using it, cool. If not, they'll release Windows 12 "now with zero ads and bloat!" and people will come flocking back from their year or so of Linux frustrations (there will be more than a few).
AJRF 2y ago
In case you don't know, there is a Windows version called IoT LTSC that strips all the spyware junk out and doesn't update often but is hardended. It disables a bunch of features and will likely never enable them like CoPilot, Windows Store etc. If you really must suffer Windows its worth seeing if it has the features you need. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise/overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise...
- tr3ntg 2y ago
  I clicked through to this webpage (and many of its linked pages) and I don't see how I could personally get a hold of this build. I'm eventually told that "if I want to learn more I should contact a Windows IoT Distributor" which is its own page with a lot of email addresses. Am I missing something? Like many workarounds mentioned in this thread, this certainly doesn't seem to be one the average Windows user could reasonably take advantage of.
  - unethical_ban 2y ago
    https://massgrave.dev/windows_ltsc_links https://massgrave.dev/windows_ltsc_links That has reputable downloads, and the main page discusses paths to activation.
idkdotcom 2y ago
[dead]
jjice 2y ago
I'm so happy that I don't have any workflows that require Windows in my life, except for playing some games with my friends a few times a week. Other than that, I've been 100% Linux for personal use and MacOS for work. I understand that Windows has a lot of exclusive software, but damn do I feel bad for those who need to use it. It's a real piece of trash compared to my mental "golden years" being in Windows 7. Despite the meme, I've had a consistently good (and getting better) experience with the Linux desktop since I switched full time about four and a half years ago (with a lot of part time use before hand). There are definitely some things that come up that I know how to deal with because I work with Linux on a daily basis or I've seen it before, but we are making great progress towards it being a _very_ user friendly operating system.
Aeolun 2y ago
> The easiest way to do it on a PC you just took out of the box is to press Shift+F10 during the setup process to bring up a command prompt window, typing OOBE\BYPASSNRO, rebooting, and then clicking the "I don't have Internet" button when asked to connect to a Wi-Fi network. The easiest way! Windows is lost…
- silentguy 2y ago
  AFAICR, You don't have to reboot the machine. You can press `Shift+F10` again and run `ipconfig \release`. I could be wrong. There are also some email ids (e.g. no@email.net ) in the sign up fields which allows you to create local accounts. Not that these workarounds excuse all this user hostile behavior.
donatj 2y ago
We're passing some sort of threshold where their antics are starting to piss off the normies. I am very curious what comes of that. I have had non-technical friends get so fed up with Windows that they're willing to try Linux. One of my friends is just loving Ubuntu except that he can't seem to get his printer to work. I should poke around with it.
RedShift1 2y ago
In bird culture this is called a dick move
denkmoon 2y ago
What a pointlessly antagonistic action. What marginal benefit in number of live account logins is being gained here, vs pissing off the people who care enough to search for this in the first place.
brainzap 2y ago
2024/25 is finally the year of the linux Desktop. Not because linux got better, but windows got hostile. xD
systemz 2y ago
I'm wondering when PC/laptop OEMs will see that user unfriendly Windows is scaring off their potential customers?
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  They've seen it. These hostile changes are not things they're doing on a whim. They've determined they can make more money this way, so they do it.
Jedd 2y ago
> To be fair to Microsoft, all the big tech companies want you to sign in with an account before you can use all the features of the software ... That's just saying 'others are also doing awful things' which is no excuse at all - while ignoring the fact this is a single-node operating system paid for by you, and deployed on a machine you own. To be more fair, make it easy for me to use local authentication and have zero reliance on (or exposure) to a potentially exploited [0] auth systems. Maybe they want to see how many times the EU can come down on them in 2024. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37702095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37702095
fishcrackers 2y ago
[dead]
Workaccount2 2y ago
Someone wake me up when there is a linux distro that hides the terminal. Every successful OS hides the terminal and allows you to fix 99% of problems without having to copy+paste cryptic commands from a random website into a console. Linux has so much promise but distro devs chronically keep leaning hard on the apache helicopter cockpit UI (the terminal) when the first thing mainstream OS devs do is turn the UI into a Honda Civic. Yes, I have been on linux for 2 years now, and ready to go back to windows (again). If I had the time I'd learn how to make a distro just so I could make something that seasoned linux users would hate (and would actually be popular for once).
- bee_rider 2y ago
  It is sort of funny that Linux has become around as user friendly as Windows. But, it is in the end a community project. You could try a Steam Deck, they have a customer-service orientation. Why would a more conventional distro want to appeal to non-technical users? Even technical users don’t often contribute code or good bug reports. But non-technical users can’t.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    Linux is as user friendly as windows if all you do is watch youtube and check emails.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Hopefully Windows will get support for more technical features soon.
- tracker1 2y ago
  Wild, I've been using Linux (Pop) for my personal desktop exclusively for a few years. The only terminal use for me has pretty much been related to software dev, and usually the integrated VS Code terminal. Most config options are in Settings and don't recall using the Terminal for much outside the above context, where I would do the same in Windows (WSL) or Mac.
dustinsterk 2y ago
I have a Windows 10 machine for one thing only -- iRacing. For all other gaming needs I happily use my Steam Deck thanks to the amazing support from Steam. I would happily pay MS for an OS that was zero bloat and only included the core functionality to support sim racing and the 3rd party hardware.
ragnese 2y ago
I'm probably going to sound like a troll for saying this, but I hate when history gets conveniently "forgotten". Please, don't forget how many people online (including here on HN) repeated the astroturf propaganda about how "Microsoft has changed" and "Nadella's not Gates and Ballmer" when Nadella first took over. Don't forget how anyone who dared type "EEE" was called a troll or at least stubborn and stuck in the past. Microsoft sucks. They are a hostile company who absolutely abuses their market position and will never--ever--think twice about it. I don't want to hear whataboutism for Google and Apple--I have my complaints for them, too. But, I'm really bitter about how well the Nadella-MS marketing campaign worked on devs and IT people. But, at least Microsoft "hearts" open source, right?
yyyfb 2y ago
When you look at GitHub, Visual code, and OpenAI, Microsoft looks like an innovation powerhouse who gets it. Then you put Windows on a new machine and you remember that that Microsoft still exists. The thing is riddled with value-squeezing bullshit, like a stupid homepage in your browser filled with clickbaity crap, ads, requirements to sign up for an account just to use your own damn computer, etc. I guess one of the benefits of Microsoft being able to operate with different cultures within the company is that, for example, they haven't killed GitHub the way that Google killed so many acquisitions. The problem though is that there not getting any culturally beneficial benefits back into their core and keep pumping a very crappy OS.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tracker1 2y ago
I've managed to convert a few family and friends to Linux (PopOS) at this point. A lot of games run under Wine/Proton without issue and most general use (email, facebook, youtube) pretty much just works for them. While not all cases, one might be surprised how many could use Linux without issue if someone else installs and configures it for them. Much like Windows is installed and configured by someone else when the system is new.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301
place_order 2y ago
This has been the way for years and is not news. It is hilarious that anyone on any os, with any browser might search "how to take back control". To not have your bank account frozen, or the CPS come by for a visit. These windows users are and have been trained not to think. It is best to keep them locked in and unaware. My gripe is that an os that generates revenue isn't getting taxed. Like coin mining or in game loot drops.
prabhu-yu 2y ago
From past 2 years, for 98% of the time, I use Linux (Mint-Mate edition). I have nVidia p600 GPU and 4K monitor. Due to some reasons, scaling does not work fine in Xfce edition, but scaling at 1x works fine in Mate edition. Given the limitations, still I feel, using GNU/Linux is better than Windows for most use cases like surfing web, Terminals, LibreOffice, SW development etc...
Woodi 2y ago
Do MS managers do Altavista & Co ? Sell NOW ! Or maybe they are trying to prepare us for buying v12 soon ? :> Also: I planned to stay on Win10 for gaming but they makes "W*" so disgusting that will move to Linux as soon as free time comes. And that is tomorrow ! Hurray !
zulban 2y ago
When these user hostile windows threads popup regularly I'm genuinely baffled how people can complain and so thoroughly document workarounds instead of just using Linux. Work machines are a different story, but you control your life at home. What do you want? Choose.
- gaius_baltar 2y ago
  Funniest thing is that they are the same people who reject Linux because they need to read some docs from time to time.
EchoReflection 2y ago
It's shocking how awful Micro$oft is.
bithead 2y ago
Every time I've been a situation in building cloud infrastructure when multiple vendors have been involved in a complex problem and one of those vendors was microsoft, they've always been the worst to deal with.
kjreact 2y ago
I read through these threads and no one blames Nadella for these decisions. But when Google makes a mistake inevitably someone will blame it on the poor leadership of Pichai. Why does HN have a double standard for Nadella?
- hmry 2y ago
  Perhaps it's because there are lots of old Googlers on HN who remember "the good old days where we weren't evil" and blame the changes on new management, while MS has been evil since its founding and the last few years under Nadella have actually been the least evil... though that's not a high bar, and looks to be changing currently.
  - kjreact 2y ago
    This explanation makes sense, Nadella is a much better CEO than Ballmer. But I hope HN can hold Nadella accountable for Microsoft’s key decisions in the future instead of blaming MS as a faceless corporation because Nadella is the face of MS. And the decision to make Windows into an OS that spies on its users for the sake of increasing ad revenues is a decision that must have been made at the top.

633 points by redbell 2y ago

Bait and switch. It's a shame that toothless regulators can't do anything about it. Microsoft should received such a large fine, they should end up on the brink of bankruptcy.

DaiPlusPlus 2y ago
> It's a shame that toothless regulators can't do anything about it There's no law or regulation that requires computer makers to always allow operation and set-up while offline. ...I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach, but a reasonable alternative would be to require Microsoft to sell Windows LTSC to anyone who asks for it, not just Software Assurance and MSDN Subscribers.
- mihaic 2y ago
  > I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach Why? Do you think it would lead to a better or worse world?
  - chii 2y ago
    overreach of regulations leads to a worse world. Your options are to simply not use microsoft windows. it is a cost that is borne by you (ala the switching cost). There can be no such an option where you get to keep what you have, but also legislate exactly what you desire, without paying any of the costs.
    - mihaic 2y ago
      I agree with the principle of overreach being wrong. I'm just asking why you'd think it would be an overreach in this case, when the entire world basically has 3 real choices for OS: Windows, MacOS and Linux, and a lot of the business world is bound by legacy reasons to Windows. I understand that there are downsides to over-regulating, but there are also downsides to under-regulating.
- graemep 2y ago
  No specific law, but competition laws are quite generic in their requirements so it is possible that they do need to allow users that much control over their machines.
- outofpaper 2y ago
  >having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach HOW? Until now we haven't needed a law because OS developers haven't been this brazen. In any case there are likely actually a few laws that can be used to litigate the you shouldn't need to be online to install and setup a computer. I'll bet that if they don't fix it themselves a class action will be incoming n citing privacy or child safety or maybe some other laws.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Hasn't Apple always been this brazen, and never been punished for it? Google phones too. Apple's current punishment is for something else.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Why would there be a law covering such a specific and legally unimportant detail? And do you really want to live under a government that regulates everything in such specific detail? Microsoft can choose to support or not support offline accounts. Users can decide if they care and if they'd rather use something other than Windows. What's the problem exactly?
    - temac 2y ago
      The problem could be abuse of a dominant position. Maybe Mac has now a market share good enough so that MS can pretend they are not in a dominant position in this sector, although if all it takes for an industry to abuse their users is that they all commit it together, each with their still high market share, that would also be an issue for citizens. Esp. in duopoly cases.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        But again, why should the government regulate this? We don't have a fundamental right to own and use computers, or to offline accounts for our computers. What legal line could be drawn to allow the government to regulate this without regulating all kinds of product and business decisions? Would it be reasonable for them to regulate what colors of crayons must be included in ever box of Crayola crayons? And if not, what is the legal boundry allowing them to say what features an OS has without allowing the crayon regulation?
- gostsamo 2y ago
  You can have a regulation requiring that devices are not dependent on internet services and that people can manage them themselves. This is consumer protection 101 where people are protected from predatory business practices.
- lozenge 2y ago
  The number of auto opt in updates clearly violates privacy law. The ease of accidentally agreeing and the inability to view contracts before purchase violates consumer law.
- pndy 2y ago
  > I think having a law to require MS to allow offline set-up by all users would be an overreach Honestly, no - it wouldn't be considering that for many decades we could use Windows without being connected to Microsoft cloud services. At the moment MS is "only" enforcing an online account during OOBE.* The next step will be an unavoidable Windows-as-as-service product with "subscribe to remove ads and unlock xyz feature" - that's the goal they're heading for years. They could do as simple as having two versions of OS: Windows Free with ads, telemetry, mandatory online account and a paid Windows Pro with all these limitations gone, with an offline account and more control for the end-user. And that's what the regulators, govt's agencies should really make happen. Sadly they prefer working over content scanning and damaging encryption, violating our privacy while pleasing entertainment industry with wild goose-chasing pirates. [*] - last time I check in W10, singing out right after OOBE and reverting to a local account still puts residual traces all around the profile to the point that you never are truly signed out.
cladopa 2y ago
As someone who has used Windows only minimally in the last 20 years (mainly for CAD and 3D) I do not understand why people need Governments to "protect" them against abuse while they continue using the abusing system. In the past it took a lot of work to use alternatives. Today it is so easy.
- jojobas 2y ago
  Because we hired the government to do it. In a large domain of things windows is still a monopoly.
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Because the government is the people. Its a democracy.
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  Easy, as long as you are not forced to use this spyware on the job. Or some specific proprietary file format or specific things that alternative tools do not yet have. Easy, as long as you are a technical user, who is willing to invest time in learning alternative tools and also willing to sometimes sacrifice some time to get appropriate results using alternative software than the mainstream Windows tools. A lot is possible using other OS and alternative tooling, but it takes commitment and possibly time to learn. Many people are not willing to relearn tools of their professions or even for their hobbies. It really takes an open minded and willing person to listen to their engineering friend and give other tools chances and time and potentially even make a jump to a command line mindset. Most people, compared to software developers and engineers, are almost computer illiterates. They are happy, when the thing turns on and looks as it always looks and they see some familiar icon for a web browser. Probably never before has the need for educating people about computers and what they can do with them been so huge. The resulting incentives from not educating people about such have terrible results for our whole industry/profession.
  - 999900000999 2y ago
    To be fair. Linux tends to cause strange issues if you get unlucky. Within the last year I've had to just try a different distro since Ubuntu didn't support my hardware. On a different PC I'm on Mint now. Years upon years ago I gave someone a PC with Ubuntu installed. A week later he just asked how do I install League of Legends. The simple answer is install Windows. 90% of people don't want you to "educate" them about why struggling with the Linux CLI is a better use of their time than whatever else they had planned.

xlii 2y ago

Geez, the more I read about it the more I think about migrating my gaming machine to something like Pop_OS. I heard people are having great experience, and Steam through Steam Deck has considerably improved gaming on Linux experience. I think I get it - there are plenty of people using Windows as their primary OS and they want bells and whistles while not caring about telemetry. But just.. let people disable things. IMO fact, that Microsoft is pushing spyware on their users and make it harder and harder to disable it is much more important topic than EU focusing on Apple (which is monopoly inside their ecosystem, but not a provider of "default" software used in offices etc.)

themoonisachees 2y ago
I've done that. I kept a windows install on the side for the few games that don't have a permissive enough anticheat, but I basically never use it anymore since The Finals has allowed Proton. It's going great.
- dudul 2y ago
  Same. I have a dedicated gaming machine with windows 10 where I do nothing except games. Still trying to delay the upgrade to 11 as long as I can though.
masklinn 2y ago
Yeah I’m looking at building a new machine because mine is getting very long in the tooth (although I don’t play very demanding games anyway), I’ve been waffling about using linux and proton for it even though my gaming PC has been windows since forever, I think at this point it’s petty much a done deal.
- Zhyl 2y ago
  You can also dual boot and/or swap out hard drives. It took me a goodly while to get immersed and comfortable with Linux, so I'd definitely plan a discovery and/or transition phase before hard switching over.

speedylight 2y ago

Switching to a Mac was one of the best decisions I ever made because of crap like this. The only thing that will ever make me use windows again is GTA 6!

portaouflop 2y ago
Gaming is horrible on Mac. Also I don’t like how they patronize their users. I for one run an old win10 just for gaming and some legacy software. Will keep until EOL of win10 and then check alternatives
- dewey 2y ago
  > Gaming is horrible on Mac. Just like an Linux is horrible for doing video editing, not sure that comparison makes sense. Pick the right system for your workload.
  - maven29 2y ago
    >Just like an Linux is horrible for doing video editing Doesn't Davinci Resolve run well on Linux? I've heard most VFX and Animation work is done on Linux workstations and render farms. Really it's just the absence of Adobe and a few beginner-friendly tools, I'd say. https://www.phoronix.com/news/VFX-Animation-Linux-Recommends https://www.phoronix.com/news/VFX-Animation-Linux-Recommends
    - tombert 2y ago
      I think Linux is used extensively for the hyper-professional stuff, but those programs cost $10,000+ and really aren't meant for consumers. I haven't done video editing on Linux for awhile, Lightworks is generally pretty ok, but I don't really know of any equivalent to After Effects or Apple Motion available on Linux, at least in the consumer space. I don't really do enough interesting stuff with video for that to bother me but I suspect that could be a blocker for a lot of people.
- DaSHacka 2y ago

trollied 2y ago

Large thread from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301

mythz 2y ago

User hostile abuses like this is what has finally pushed me off the Windows spyware/admil after 25+ years of using Windows as my primary Desktop. There's still some rough edges but overall Fedora 40 is an amazing Desktop OS which was easy to recreate all my dev tools including: .NET 8, VSCode, JB Toolbox/Rider/DataGrip/etc, GH CLI/Desktop, Docker/lazydocker, Ollama, AWS CLI, Discord, Obsidian, with PostgreSQL/MySQL/SQL Server/Redis running in Docker, effortlessly installed node/bun/go/python with mise, even all my major titled Windows games are working under Steam/Proton which was a pleasant surprise. With Windows 10 nearing EOL I believe Linux Desktop is at the turning point for market share now that Microsoft is turning the crank with Windows 11 and turning it into an ad/spyware marketing channel for their Apps and cloud services.

mrjin 2y ago
Installed Fedora 40 on a new Ryzen 8740u machine, I cannot believe it that everything working by default, video, audio, even sleeping working like a charm.
- mythz 2y ago
  It flies on my new AMD 7800X3D custom build! Fedora 40/Wayland worked beautifully out-of-the-box with buttery smooth DE animations which unfortunately started flickering after installing NVidia's proprietary drivers which should be fixed with explicit sync [1] in NVidia's latest 560 drivers which is now available in KDE Plasma 6.1 update, hopefully it'll be available for Gnome in a system update soon - looking forward to running Wayland again. [1] https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2024/04/05/explicit-sync.html https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2024/04/05/explicit-sync...
  - darkteflon 2y ago
    Did you consider Pop_OS? What made you choose Fedora? I went with Pop but I’ve always been curious about Fedora and really impressed that Wayland is working so well for you on Nvidia.
    - 2y ago

gadders 2y ago

"Dear user, You have engaged in wrong-think, so we have disabled your windows account and deleted all your docs in the cloud. Regards, Microsoft."

jojobas 2y ago
They could bitbleach the local drive too for all you know.

mrjin 2y ago

Doesn't matter any more to me. I'm replacing my Windows installation with Linux, 3 done, 4 to go.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

stuaxo 2y ago

This is annoying, even though I am mostly a Linux user I still use Windows occasionally.

delta_p_delta_x 2y ago

I wish Microsoft didn't make local account creation so hard. One big reason I want a local account is so that my user profile in `C:\Users` is my full first name with a Capital first character, i.e. `C:\Users\Username`. Signing in with an online account in the out-of-box experience means the user profile is truncated to 5 characters and begins with a lowercase character, i.e. `C:\Users\usern`[1]. This has been the behaviour since Windows 8. Additionally, Microsoft's decision to plague Windows with advertisements and Copilot was terrible. Windows is otherwise a damn good OS, and I wish the engineers had a say over the marketing and Copilot departments at MS. I also wish the UI/UX department didn't suddenly decide that macOS was a shining bastion of good desktop UX, i.e. favouring icons over text. I'm going to link another comment of mine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40541721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40541721 After setting up I log in to OneDrive and Microsoft anyway; I have an Office 365 subscription (the competition here absolutely sucks) and I'd like my game achievements in XBox Live. I still use Windows, and I probably will continue to use it despite all this. Unlike the rest of the commenters here, I actually like using and writing for Windows. Desktop-on-Linux is broken if you have any reasonable multi-monitor HiDPI set-up with an NVIDIA GPU. I personally don't care which company/entity is responsible; as an end-user, it is broken, full stop. I'm also not fond of the OS-as-an-IDE mentality; I like a right proper IDE with a green play button and red circles. I was never comfortable with the command-line, and I remain so, having been entirely raised on Windows. Proton is nice, but what's nicer is never having to bother about compatibility because one is running the platform the game was written on and for. I faffed around with macOS and I use it at work, but writing programs for Macs is ridiculously painful (and dare I say, expensive) after Apple introduced the requirement to sign + notarise stuff. I'm also not a big fan of the post-OS X Lion workflow when the 'Save As' button was removed. [1]: https://superuser.com/questions/1148991/why-does-windows-10-truncate-the-user-name https://superuser.com/questions/1148991/why-does-windows-10-...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
amanzi 2y ago
"One big reason I want a local account is so that my user profile..." Yes! This sounds like a minor thing, but this is my number one reason why I always create a local account before adding any cloud features. If I sign in with a Microsoft account during setup my user profile is in "C:\Users\stuar" which drives me nuts. The easiest way around this whole issue is to just sign in with a Microsoft account during set up, but once logged in, create yourself a local admin account and log in with that, and then delete the first account that was created. I find this easier rather than trying to work around the initial set up process.

davidguetta 2y ago

laugh in linux

imchillyb 2y ago

Using Microsoft products is like waking up and finding someone’s hand down our pants. And, instead of speaking to law enforcement we move into the abuser’s bedroom and stop wearing underwear. Makes perfect sense.

broknbottle 2y ago

I’ve got a dedicated windows sffpc for games running Windows 11. IMO, it’s a terrible OS for a dedicated gaming box or htpc. I constantly have to switch from controller to a keyboard and touchpad because of new settings, random pop-up notifications, etc. after updates I’ll find disabled things that were re-enabled or new “features” that require me to disable because everything is auto opt-in… I had auto login enabled for a long time before it randomly stopped working and somehow the host had switched from local to Microsoft account login. Attempts to switch back resulted in a weird semi-broken state. I just left it as Microsoft login and found a way to re-enable auto-login with the Microsoft account. Windows 10 was pretty easy to convert to a htpc or arcade box. Windows 11 not so much, feels like I’m running a rolling release run by someone who doesn’t care about user experience

politelemon 2y ago

> Macs, iPhones, and iPads will all let you complete the setup process without signing in, though you do have to know which buttons to click IME it's very difficult, and for intents and purposes here from a user perspective, it is the exact same thing. Further we've found it's also impossible to create an account without handing over credit card details. Please call it what it is instead of wringing your hands - dark patterns.

BigJono 2y ago
Thank you, the amount of people that defend this sort of stuff is insane. Quacks like a dark pattern to me. I just got done setting up my 3rd work Macbook in about 8 years and every single time the credit card thing gets me. Back and forth through the app store setup 4-5 times, about to finally cave and add a personal credit card into a work laptop because I can't figure out how the fuck to install something and my team is waiting for me to get setup, then on the 5th go round I finally figure out that the credit card ribbon has a "none" icon. They know full fucking well that every single person on the planet reads a ribbon of credit card icons as "visa, mastercard, blah blah blah blah". If that's not intentional I'll eat my fucking desk.

criddell 2y ago

I wonder why they have to do it this way? Why not make having an account so useful that people want it? The fact that so many people go to extraordinary lengths to not have an account indicates a problem with their approach.

yourusername 2y ago

If you're not going to buy their cloud services Microsoft doesn't want you as a customer anyway. My 9 year old Windows PC keeps nagging for me to "finish setting up", because there is no way not using onedrive is your actual intention right?

LegitShady 2y ago
So does my iPhone but that's somehow ok?
- astura 2y ago
  PayPal few months ago prompted me to "finish setting up my account." ...For an account has been open for 23 years.
- macNchz 2y ago
  I don’t see where that comment was giving Apple a pass. They are indeed really egregious in upselling iCloud, in my opinion. The fact they sell devices with undersized, non-user-upgradable base model storage and default to storing lots of stuff in iCloud so it winds up filling up is pretty blatant. I’ve had to help a number of friends and family who kept getting iCloud storage full messages on their iPhones because they didn’t realize that their Desktop folder on their Mac had been slurped up into iCloud by some update, and was full of large files they didn’t care about accessing on their phone.
- endisneigh 2y ago
  Why do people do this? Literally no mention or relevance to apple or iPhone, nor approval of that behavior yet the comparison is made anyway
  - Sharlin 2y ago
    I guess whataboutism is a rhetorical technique approximately as old as verbal communication.
  - LegitShady 2y ago

YPPH 2y ago

In the enterprise, I'm convinced the effort to move people away from Active Directory Domain Services to Azure Active Directory is also a backwards step. For an enterprise without extensive working from home, the new model seems to create at least as many problems as it solves.

moqster 2y ago

Since rufus wasn't mentioned here: https://rufus.ie/de/ https://rufus.ie/de/ You can create an win 11 iso with some custom settings (e.g. "remove requirement for an online Microsoft account) edit: ok, its already mentioned in the article, sorry :o

holoduke 2y ago

They also have dark mechanisms to restore certain settings. Like default browser and also security settings. I am a person who likes to disable everything. No ms anti virus, no ms security, no uac. Nothing. I want everything to be disabled. Absolutely required when you work on cracks and hacks. Annoying stupid Microsoft keeps enabling their realtime protection crippleware. Despite settings, registry changes. Very annoying.

999900000999 2y ago

The most amazing part of this is Windows doesn't care if it can't detect any network devices. You're just stuck in a loop. Luckily I was able to bridge my phones internet connection. Then in Windows it was able to start installing device drivers.

api 2y ago

Our kids like Minecraft. If it wasn’t for that there would be no Windows in the house.

zimpenfish 2y ago
Runs well on a Mac if you use something like PrismLauncher with the various performance mods. (but you don't really get stuff like shaders)
tapoxi 2y ago
The normal release of Minecraft is Java, so it'll run anywhere. The C++ rewrite depends on Windows APIs, and it is much less flexible/moddable than the Java version. It does support playing with consoles and mobile, though.

_joel 2y ago

Maybe this year will finally be the year of Linux on the desktop... :)

belter 2y ago

Yesterday 274 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301

b3ing 2y ago

They do these things slowly and hoping no one notices. More and more intrusive, the dimmer the frog of losing your privacy and slowly add ads. It might take 10 years but you better believe AI will train on your data for their benefit and profit

bdnavf 2y ago

Apart from obvious privacy and GDPR issues, is this not also an anti-trust issue? At some point OS vendors were forced to point to alternative browsers. Should the setup not also point to competitors like rsync.net?

replete 2y ago

The recovery commandline solution did not work for me. What did work was using no@thanks.com with a random password, which is a locked account, which then allowed me to create a local account.

gardaani 2y ago

The Internet Wayback Machine has archived the instructions how to convert a Microsoft account into a local account: https://web.archive.org/web/20240612104753/https:/support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/change-from-a-local-account-to-a-microsoft-account-395203bf-9f1b-eb24-b042-5b8dae6c1d20 https://web.archive.org/web/20240612104753/https:/support.mi...

HumblyTossed 2y ago
That's cool. But it's not enough. Most people don't even know about the wayback machine.
- userbinator 2y ago
  After that massive lawsuit, I think they got a lot more publicity (both good and bad.)
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - sombrero_john 2y ago
    Most people don't know about the massive lawsuit.
- archon810 2y ago
  But other sites exist where you could look up this information and find a guide.
  - HumblyTossed 2y ago
    The point is that you have to know to even look it up.
everybodyknows 2y ago
And how many revs on before they don't work any more?

_benj 2y ago

I’ve been leaning towards using windows server for the few use cases that I need windows. The performance of it running on libvirt/qemu is indistinguishable, for me, to baremetal. License is a bit of a challenge but with the 180 trail days and how little I actually use it I can afford to do a fresh installation every few months and be ok. It’s kind of sad given than windows itself, at least the core OS used in windows server is rock solid… but when you go to the user offerings of windows 10/11 is such a stark contrast and crappy/unstable experience!

unethical_ban 2y ago
Check out massgrave.dev - helps with licensing. It's hosted on GitHub so it must be fine! :)

resource_waste 2y ago

I tried to make an account for my kid. The Windows never could load the box. The quality of Windows is poor. Fedora is actually a great OS. Windows is among the Debian/Ubuntu/Mint tiers of OS, kind of crappy but kind of works.

polairscience 2y ago

A funny thing I always notice about these sorts of discussions, where a lot of folks identify this particular offense as the final line that is harmful... (which for the record I understand). Everyone in the Linux community has known this would be the outcome since forever. There have been a million small abuses on the road to here. And I get that everyone has their reasons for using Windows and other proprietary software but the strangulation was plain as day. So: For all the flack that folks here give militant believers such as Stallman et. al., you can thank them and every other FOSS dev for keeping the alternative alive. Imagine a world where there was no alternative. You don't deserve to have your attention hijacked or to be forced into a cloud contract just because you want to use your hardware. Hate to say we told you so but you can come to the fold anyway. Welcome to freedom.

tombert 2y ago
> But for all the flack that folks here give militant believes like Stallman I was as critical as anyone over Stallman until the Snowden leaks happened. It felt clear to me that these tech companies will very happily get rid of our privacy the second it's convenient for them, and while I should have known that before, I guess I brushed that off as paranoid thinking. I still use a fair amount of proprietary software and web services, such is the way in 2024, but I try and be much more aware of what information I'm sharing and storing. Once my current Macbook dies or once the Linux ports for the T2 Macs is actually usable, I'll move to a proper Linux distro and be rid of most of the Apple ecosystem in my workflow.

davidgerard 2y ago

Even my gamer kid is asking about dual-booting or moving to Linux when Windows 10 goes EOL next year. (They're quite capable of running a Linux box, it's the games and Office 365 Full Version [which doesn't do well in Wine] when LibreOffice won't quite do the job. They've heard the good news about Proton. But I think it's a sign that Microsoft is repelling the gamer kids too.)

simianparrot 2y ago

Windows 10 is my final Windows. When it's out of support I'm switching to some Linux distro and not looking back. I've already experimented a lot with Proton on my Steam Deck and it's been great, and there's no other software I need anymore that can't be run on Linux acceptably.

jedrek 2y ago

It's interesting to watch the arc of Microsoft being the big baddie, transitioning to being a good dude that the open source community has embraced, back to being horrible. Except they've gone from being horrible to developers, to being horrible to normal, non-technical users.

bee_rider 2y ago
Old MS was evil but at least they were intimidating and impressive. New MS is pretty pathetic.

superultra 2y ago

A long long time ago as a poor college student, I signed up to get a “free PC.” You got a shitty packard bell tower for signing away your privacy and allowing a bunch of ads annd telemetry exist in the OS. It really wasn’t that intrusive and eventually the company folded and I got a free (shitty) ad-free pc out of it. I’m a Mac user now but when I pull up windows 11 on my kid’s or wife’s laptop, it feels like that free-pc dot com again, only it’s in every person’s PC. I’m genuinely shocked at the amount of trash that barrages a common user in windows, and shocked that Microsoft gets away with it. My 14 year old gets barraged with not just co-pilot but a bunch of news and trash clickbait that is straight inappropriate for kids to see. I’ve had to remove it all twice but with every significant update, somehow my settings get reversed and we’re back at square one. I tried even using local accounts but it causes significant issues in the OS. If you’d told me in 1999 that free-pc.com was the dystopian digital future we’d all be living in, I’d have laughed you out of the room - but that’s exactly what we have. The only difference is that the PC isn’t free. We are.

jb1991 2y ago
Not only do I agree with you, I actually think you have sugarcoated it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- cvadict 2y ago
  Speaking of sugar coatings, have you tried Candy Crush Saga 365 yet? I've already pinned it in your start menu favorites for convenience.
- throwup238 2y ago
  Agreed on the sugarcoating. My mother installed Windows 11 on a lab computer and had to call me for tech support for the first time in 20 years because she couldn't figure out how to do the most basic things. This is a PhD physicist who has been programming Fortran and Python since the 1990s and taught her parents how to use Ubuntu as their daily driver, yet she was completely stumped by Windows 11. It's been a daily struggle for her since. Sadly all I could say was "yeah, that's why I use Linux"

bantunes 2y ago

There is no downside to MS's increasing enshittification of Windows. If people keep using it, cool. If not, they'll release Windows 12 "now with zero ads and bloat!" and people will come flocking back from their year or so of Linux frustrations (there will be more than a few).

AJRF 2y ago

In case you don't know, there is a Windows version called IoT LTSC that strips all the spyware junk out and doesn't update often but is hardended. It disables a bunch of features and will likely never enable them like CoPilot, Windows Store etc. If you really must suffer Windows its worth seeing if it has the features you need. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise/overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise...

tr3ntg 2y ago
I clicked through to this webpage (and many of its linked pages) and I don't see how I could personally get a hold of this build. I'm eventually told that "if I want to learn more I should contact a Windows IoT Distributor" which is its own page with a lot of email addresses. Am I missing something? Like many workarounds mentioned in this thread, this certainly doesn't seem to be one the average Windows user could reasonably take advantage of.
- unethical_ban 2y ago
  https://massgrave.dev/windows_ltsc_links https://massgrave.dev/windows_ltsc_links That has reputable downloads, and the main page discusses paths to activation.

idkdotcom 2y ago

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jjice 2y ago

I'm so happy that I don't have any workflows that require Windows in my life, except for playing some games with my friends a few times a week. Other than that, I've been 100% Linux for personal use and MacOS for work. I understand that Windows has a lot of exclusive software, but damn do I feel bad for those who need to use it. It's a real piece of trash compared to my mental "golden years" being in Windows 7. Despite the meme, I've had a consistently good (and getting better) experience with the Linux desktop since I switched full time about four and a half years ago (with a lot of part time use before hand). There are definitely some things that come up that I know how to deal with because I work with Linux on a daily basis or I've seen it before, but we are making great progress towards it being a _very_ user friendly operating system.

Aeolun 2y ago

> The easiest way to do it on a PC you just took out of the box is to press Shift+F10 during the setup process to bring up a command prompt window, typing OOBE\BYPASSNRO, rebooting, and then clicking the "I don't have Internet" button when asked to connect to a Wi-Fi network. The easiest way! Windows is lost…

silentguy 2y ago
AFAICR, You don't have to reboot the machine. You can press `Shift+F10` again and run `ipconfig \release`. I could be wrong. There are also some email ids (e.g. no@email.net ) in the sign up fields which allows you to create local accounts. Not that these workarounds excuse all this user hostile behavior.

donatj 2y ago

We're passing some sort of threshold where their antics are starting to piss off the normies. I am very curious what comes of that. I have had non-technical friends get so fed up with Windows that they're willing to try Linux. One of my friends is just loving Ubuntu except that he can't seem to get his printer to work. I should poke around with it.

RedShift1 2y ago

In bird culture this is called a dick move

denkmoon 2y ago

What a pointlessly antagonistic action. What marginal benefit in number of live account logins is being gained here, vs pissing off the people who care enough to search for this in the first place.

brainzap 2y ago

2024/25 is finally the year of the linux Desktop. Not because linux got better, but windows got hostile. xD

systemz 2y ago

I'm wondering when PC/laptop OEMs will see that user unfriendly Windows is scaring off their potential customers?

davidmurdoch 2y ago
They've seen it. These hostile changes are not things they're doing on a whim. They've determined they can make more money this way, so they do it.

Jedd 2y ago

> To be fair to Microsoft, all the big tech companies want you to sign in with an account before you can use all the features of the software ... That's just saying 'others are also doing awful things' which is no excuse at all - while ignoring the fact this is a single-node operating system paid for by you, and deployed on a machine you own. To be more fair, make it easy for me to use local authentication and have zero reliance on (or exposure) to a potentially exploited [0] auth systems. Maybe they want to see how many times the EU can come down on them in 2024. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37702095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37702095

fishcrackers 2y ago

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Workaccount2 2y ago

Someone wake me up when there is a linux distro that hides the terminal. Every successful OS hides the terminal and allows you to fix 99% of problems without having to copy+paste cryptic commands from a random website into a console. Linux has so much promise but distro devs chronically keep leaning hard on the apache helicopter cockpit UI (the terminal) when the first thing mainstream OS devs do is turn the UI into a Honda Civic. Yes, I have been on linux for 2 years now, and ready to go back to windows (again). If I had the time I'd learn how to make a distro just so I could make something that seasoned linux users would hate (and would actually be popular for once).

bee_rider 2y ago
It is sort of funny that Linux has become around as user friendly as Windows. But, it is in the end a community project. You could try a Steam Deck, they have a customer-service orientation. Why would a more conventional distro want to appeal to non-technical users? Even technical users don’t often contribute code or good bug reports. But non-technical users can’t.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  Linux is as user friendly as windows if all you do is watch youtube and check emails.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Hopefully Windows will get support for more technical features soon.
tracker1 2y ago
Wild, I've been using Linux (Pop) for my personal desktop exclusively for a few years. The only terminal use for me has pretty much been related to software dev, and usually the integrated VS Code terminal. Most config options are in Settings and don't recall using the Terminal for much outside the above context, where I would do the same in Windows (WSL) or Mac.

dustinsterk 2y ago

I have a Windows 10 machine for one thing only -- iRacing. For all other gaming needs I happily use my Steam Deck thanks to the amazing support from Steam. I would happily pay MS for an OS that was zero bloat and only included the core functionality to support sim racing and the 3rd party hardware.

ragnese 2y ago

I'm probably going to sound like a troll for saying this, but I hate when history gets conveniently "forgotten". Please, don't forget how many people online (including here on HN) repeated the astroturf propaganda about how "Microsoft has changed" and "Nadella's not Gates and Ballmer" when Nadella first took over. Don't forget how anyone who dared type "EEE" was called a troll or at least stubborn and stuck in the past. Microsoft sucks. They are a hostile company who absolutely abuses their market position and will never--ever--think twice about it. I don't want to hear whataboutism for Google and Apple--I have my complaints for them, too. But, I'm really bitter about how well the Nadella-MS marketing campaign worked on devs and IT people. But, at least Microsoft "hearts" open source, right?

yyyfb 2y ago

When you look at GitHub, Visual code, and OpenAI, Microsoft looks like an innovation powerhouse who gets it. Then you put Windows on a new machine and you remember that that Microsoft still exists. The thing is riddled with value-squeezing bullshit, like a stupid homepage in your browser filled with clickbaity crap, ads, requirements to sign up for an account just to use your own damn computer, etc. I guess one of the benefits of Microsoft being able to operate with different cultures within the company is that, for example, they haven't killed GitHub the way that Google killed so many acquisitions. The problem though is that there not getting any culturally beneficial benefits back into their core and keep pumping a very crappy OS.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

tracker1 2y ago

I've managed to convert a few family and friends to Linux (PopOS) at this point. A lot of games run under Wine/Proton without issue and most general use (email, facebook, youtube) pretty much just works for them. While not all cases, one might be surprised how many could use Linux without issue if someone else installs and configures it for them. Much like Windows is installed and configured by someone else when the system is new.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40775301

place_order 2y ago

This has been the way for years and is not news. It is hilarious that anyone on any os, with any browser might search "how to take back control". To not have your bank account frozen, or the CPS come by for a visit. These windows users are and have been trained not to think. It is best to keep them locked in and unaware. My gripe is that an os that generates revenue isn't getting taxed. Like coin mining or in game loot drops.

prabhu-yu 2y ago

From past 2 years, for 98% of the time, I use Linux (Mint-Mate edition). I have nVidia p600 GPU and 4K monitor. Due to some reasons, scaling does not work fine in Xfce edition, but scaling at 1x works fine in Mate edition. Given the limitations, still I feel, using GNU/Linux is better than Windows for most use cases like surfing web, Terminals, LibreOffice, SW development etc...

Woodi 2y ago

Do MS managers do Altavista & Co ? Sell NOW ! Or maybe they are trying to prepare us for buying v12 soon ? :> Also: I planned to stay on Win10 for gaming but they makes "W*" so disgusting that will move to Linux as soon as free time comes. And that is tomorrow ! Hurray !

zulban 2y ago

When these user hostile windows threads popup regularly I'm genuinely baffled how people can complain and so thoroughly document workarounds instead of just using Linux. Work machines are a different story, but you control your life at home. What do you want? Choose.

gaius_baltar 2y ago
Funniest thing is that they are the same people who reject Linux because they need to read some docs from time to time.

EchoReflection 2y ago

It's shocking how awful Micro$oft is.

bithead 2y ago

Every time I've been a situation in building cloud infrastructure when multiple vendors have been involved in a complex problem and one of those vendors was microsoft, they've always been the worst to deal with.

kjreact 2y ago

I read through these threads and no one blames Nadella for these decisions. But when Google makes a mistake inevitably someone will blame it on the poor leadership of Pichai. Why does HN have a double standard for Nadella?

hmry 2y ago
Perhaps it's because there are lots of old Googlers on HN who remember "the good old days where we weren't evil" and blame the changes on new management, while MS has been evil since its founding and the last few years under Nadella have actually been the least evil... though that's not a high bar, and looks to be changing currently.
- kjreact 2y ago
  This explanation makes sense, Nadella is a much better CEO than Ballmer. But I hope HN can hold Nadella accountable for Microsoft’s key decisions in the future instead of blaming MS as a faceless corporation because Nadella is the face of MS. And the decision to make Windows into an OS that spies on its users for the sake of increasing ad revenues is a decision that must have been made at the top.