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Microsoft Account to local account conversion guide erased from Windows 11 guide

199 points by belter 2y ago

eps 2y ago
Microsoft's end goal is "Windows as a subscription service". Has always been since Windows 10 times if not earlier. All these little nasty anti-user bits stem directly from that.
- MilaM 2y ago
  I'm pretty confident, that Apple has the same goal. We are not there yet, but how else will they satisfy shareholders with ever-growing profits?
  - xattt 2y ago
    > how else will they satisfy shareholders with ever-growing profits? Typing as a service, with characters billed by the keystroke. A mixture of Wheel of Fortune and Scrabble rules apply. Vowels are free, but rare consonants or letter combinations carry a premium. /s
  - nerdjon 2y ago
    I highly doubt it, Apple has not charged for Mac for 10 years. They have the profits from hardware and the upgrade cycle as new versions drop old hardware. I imagine if anything we will see a program like the iPhone upgrade program come to Mac. That would better fit their existing workflow anyways.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      They charge up front with their margins.
    - rafram 2y ago
      There’s just no way very many people would pay for a Mac upgrade program. The iPhone one works by having you pay the monthly installment price for the phone forever. That’s usually in the $30-40/month range, which many people can stomach in exchange for guaranteed new phones every year. But Mac installment prices are $200+ a month. There just isn’t a market for a laptop subscription that costs as much as car insurance.
      - nerdjon 2y ago
        A Mac Upgrade program doesn't have to be the same upgrade cycle, same if they went the route of doing an iPad upgrade program. It would also help minimize the need to try to future proof your choice. I know when I go to buy a Mac I often way over spec since I am planning for at least 3 or 4 years. That conversation is completely different if I know I am getting an upgrade in 1 or 2 years. Meanwhile if the Mac Upgrade Program could be, idk a 2 year upgrade plan. Looking at the cheapest 16" M3 Max MBP. Right now that is $291.58 month for 12 months. If a Mac Upgrade Plan did the same timeline as iPhone where you paid over 2 years but could upgrade after a year that would be about $147.28. But it could likely be a 3 or 4 year timeline and be even cheaper. If we look at the lower end it gets even cheaper with the cheapest 16" MBP could be $104 a month. The cheapest 14" MPB could be $66.5 a month. Keeps going cheaper if you look at the Air. I feel like at that price the market very much exists when the top iPhone is $74.91 a month. The question is if the numbers make sense on Apple's side.
    - bluescrn 2y ago
      Apple is almost a subscription service. You just pay in huge installments once every 2-5 years, by replacing the entire device when the battery degrades or performance is starting to feel underwhelming.
      - torstenvl 2y ago
        Why not just change the battery?
        bluescrn 2y ago
        Because it's been made intentionally difficult, with significant risk of further damaging the product you're trying to repair. And there's no official supply of replacements. A battery change shouldn't require heat guns, special suction/clamp tools, or adhesive-dissolving chemicals. It also shouldn't require being without your device for an unknown period of time to send it in for service.
        fckgw 2y ago
        Ok, but a battery replacement is possible. You don't just throw it away. I've gotten battery replacements on various iPhones, iPads and Macbooks and it's a pretty straightforward processes.
        the_snooze 2y ago
        Reading through bluescrn's comments, it seems like anything short of "I can easily replace the battery myself" is unacceptable. Would I like to be able to replace the battery in my Apple devices myself? Absolutely. Is it an unreasonable amount of money and effort to have the Apple Store do it? Not at all. Getting them to replace the battery is no big deal. If there's something to complain about, it's that they (probably intentionally) don't do a good job advertising their battery service.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    As long as Apple charges > 1k $ for a 2TB SSD, a 5x markup on competition, they'll be fine. Apple is a hardware company first, then an App Store rent seeker, and a software company third. [1] https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/mac/accessories/storage https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/mac/accessories/storage
    - 7thpower 2y ago
      I am not as cynical as others about the compromises Apple is willing to make to grow, but it is worth noting that Tim sure does talk about services a lot: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/05/apple-reports-second-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/05/apple-reports-second-...
    - walterbell 2y ago
      The Apple storage tax also creates #DongleLife, as port quotas discourage dedicating a port to external storage like the tiny Ultra Fit, https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-128GB-Ultra-Flash-Drive/dp/B07855LJ99 https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-128GB-Ultra-Flash-Drive/dp/B07....
- Throw_Away_1049 2y ago
  I purchased the new ARM laptop Surface. It’s wild how they attempt to optimize Windows. >Ads in Outlook. Want to remove? $2 a month. >Want to use Windows productivity software? $100 a year. >Want to use more copilot features? $20 a month. >Want to game? Please use our subscription Xbox service. Etc etc.
  - CoastalCoder 2y ago
    Sincere question: are those examples real, or hyperbole?
    - Throw_Away_1049 2y ago
      Good question. Unfortunately it’s real.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Most of those are essentially hyperbole. The ads in Outlook are if you're using the free @outlook.com email address. I'm using it with a Zoho email account and I haven't seen ads. Windows productivity software? Office? Obviously, it is a paid software suite. Always has been. No surprise they're not giving it away. It is not like this is some new thing behind a paywall suddenly. Sure, back in the day it was pretty common for an average home PC to come with at least some version of Microsoft Works, but technically that was an OEM-licensed basic productivity software suite, not actually free. In the end it was just that Dell, HP, Compaq, or whoever was paying for it to put it on the list of out of the box features. More Copilot features for $20 a month? It is essentially a custom flavor of OpenAI with some more hooks and context. It is no surprise a hosted AI service that normally costs $20/mo continues to cost $20/mo. You don't need Xbox Game Pass to play games in Windows. Steam, GOG, etc. all still work perfectly fine without it. Game Pass is all about subscribing to a lot of games, including many AAA $60+ games. Let me know when Apple Music and Apple TV+ goes completely free. It is like arguing "Want to listen to music on an iPhone? Gotta pay for Apple Music. Want to watch videos on your Macbook? Need to pay for Apple TV+ streaming service. Want to send an email? Gotta pay for an iCloud subscription. Want to use headphones with your Apple device? Guess you have to buy Airpods."
- at_a_remove 2y ago
  I knew a guy who worked at Microsoft and was sending me NT 5 (later called Windows 2000) alphas to try out. Even then, the goal was to have an electric bill, a gas bill, and a "Bill" bill.
PlutoIsAPlanet 2y ago
Microsoft loves pushing people to buy macOS devices it would seem. Windows really does have the potential to be ideal for professionals, the things macOS does that make it better are all small but Microsoft just seems to paramount on sabotaging their operating system. I really feel sorry for OEMs that really don't have a choice but to ship Windows and have to stomach this shit being associated with their products.
- Zambyte 2y ago
  Why don't they have a choice? Contractual agreements?
  - davidmurdoch 2y ago
    Linux isn't actually a serious competitor in this space.
    - yonatan8070 2y ago
      I've seen laptops from large OEMs likr HP and Lenovo that ship with Ubuntu by default
      - consp 2y ago
        My guess is the reason for this is the lower default prize displayed, since in some regions they have to include the OS price in the total (or deduct it when you don't want it).
      - davidmurdoch 2y ago
        Sure, and I've bought those for myself. Doesn't change the fact that they're (perceived as) useless for nearly all business use cases.
        Zambyte 2y ago
        > Doesn't change the fact that they're (perceived as) useless for nearly all business use cases. That seems like the OEMs choice? Valve doesn't seem to be struggling with marketing non Windows for a usecase that was seen as "unsupported" until they came along.
neilv 2y ago
Debian Stable (Linux) welcomes escapees from lobster boiling: https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/ https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/
- happymellon 2y ago
  In terms of laptop compatibility because I need it all to be as cutting edge as possible, with minimum fuss, I moved to Fedora and not looked back. For everything else, Debian is great.
  - whalesalad 2y ago
    Did you run into any specific issues with Debian?
    - happymellon 2y ago
      Yes, the kernel was too old so my Ryzen didn't perform great. I could have gone through enabling backports, but I could also have just gone Fedora and not have to mess around with things I shouldn't need to.
  - turdistheword 2y ago
    Well, Pop!_OS is a fantastic choice. Plus, there’s a ISO version with Nvidia drivers. Pop is perfect for those coming from Windows.
- delfinom 2y ago
  Does it have a gui based update manager that doesn't require me to enter my password because it ducktapes sudo on top? God, the ubuntu one is the worst as it'll sometimes prompt multiple times for a password.
  - neilv 2y ago
    IME, the GUI updates work out of the box with the default Debian desktop, no prompting for passwords. I guess Ubuntu behavior you saw might've been due to their Snap package stuff, not the normal Debian APT package stuff.
23B1 2y ago
This is great. The sooner MSFT kills itself in this way, the sooner major institutions who are tired of this can switch to alternatives.
- w3ll_w3ll_w3ll 2y ago
  Only consumer version of Windows (Home and Pro) have the Microsoft Account requirement.
  - punchmesan 2y ago
    Pro can still get around it, as Pro is not actually a consumer edition. To get around it with business editions of Windows you select the option to add the computer to a domain. The domain join process doesn't happen during OOBE, so you're prompted to make a local account. Then you can just carry on without joining a domain.
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      Home & Pro can get around it with OOBE\bypassnro and not being connected to the net. Then you get the local account option.
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    For now
- 255kb 2y ago
  Windows market share and MSFT stock are laughing at your comment
  - 23B1 2y ago
    Blockbuster market share and stock are laughing at your comment
Dalewyn 2y ago
Keep in mind this article is kind of clickbait: >the instructions on how to do the latter appeared on June 12, 2024, then disappeared on June 17, 2024. The information was only ever published for 5 days.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bitcharmer 2y ago
  So the title is accurate. MS did remove the information
hiddencost 2y ago
I only have a windows machine for gaming... Eyes on Valve as they March towards Linux being a first class gaming platform.
- daedalus_j 2y ago
  It's pretty dang close. The only games I've had problems with in recent years were non-steam. Once Overwatch died and everything I was playing was in Steam I found myself rebooting into windows a lot less often. Getting your hardware working right is still the biggest problem. The games work great, occasionally audio/video driver issues necessitate some fiddling. (advantage to the Deck is that this goes away.)
- cypress66 2y ago
  It's so far behind though. Linux still doesn't support VRR or HDR.
  - Zhyl 2y ago
    HDR is coming. The OLED steam deck supports it, for example.
  - tapoxi 2y ago
    I'm on Fedora 40 KDE, both VRR and HDR are supported.
  - SpaceNugget 2y ago
    I have had both freesync and gsync workingwith no fuss for literal years. First with a 1070 and then with a 6800xt. I have never owned an HDR monitor so I can't personally speak to how well that works, but apparently it works just fine on the steam deck. Even if it didn't, the number of people for whom HDR support is a make or break feature is likely not very high. Non developers use linux daily with the steam deck. I set up my mom with my xps 15 with Ubuntu on it when her laptop mobo died. While she wasn't a huge fan of having to learn a new UI, she was able to use it without issue for facebook/email/netflix/taxes/online banking for a few months until a good deal on a replacement came up and I got my laptop back. I don't think if you are objective you can call linux so far behind windows. They are on par, each has their own annoyances and strengths, but for the average person they are just web browsing machines anyway.
internet101010 2y ago
I had to get around this last week during a vm install. Shift+F10, OOBE\BYPASSNRO, Shift+F10, ipconfig /release, install, ipconfig /renew. That's a lot of work for the average person and it's only a matter of time before they disable that command.
- prettymuchnoone 2y ago
  not sure if it's true (i haven't tried installing anything later than 23h2 i think), but i heard that oobe\bypassnro doesn't even work anymore https://x.com/TheBobPony/status/1797517797624598988 https://x.com/TheBobPony/status/1797517797624598988
  - Throw_Away_1049 2y ago
    I did it yesterday on a brand new Surface 7 Copilot+ Laptop (such a dumb name…).
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    It still works as of June 21st. Did it on a new laptop that came with W11 Home.
- hurutparittya 2y ago
  People will ask me why I'm 'torturing' myself with Linux while their preferred OS requires inputting the Konami code just to install properly.
  - ndriscoll 2y ago
    It's like there's a memory of configuring xorg.conf or wpa_supplicant that just won't go away even when that stuff has Just Worked for 15 years. Even Nixos (which isn't at all a noob friendly distribution) has a desktop installer where you just click next like 5 times.
  - benhurmarcel 2y ago
    Most people just put their Microsoft account and are done with it. It installs fine.
buro9 2y ago
I wouldn't mind if Microsoft didn't keep breaking Windows PIN and Windows Hello. Enabled it on a private PC but a different account (a work one) owns the Office license, and now Windows knows that there is an account that owns the Windows license and a different account that owns the Office license. Result? All kinds of fun that looks like this https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-hello-pin-this-option-is-currently/ba9596e1-fa6a-483b-8f64-45234bedce7e https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/window... and has many many recommended answers, of which none worked. What did work, was removing the work account via Accounts > Work or School, and falling back to a local account and password for Windows. At least I can sign in to the machine again.
nerdjon 2y ago
I would encourage anyone who is comfortable with reinstalling Windows (or knows someone, I am about to do this to my partners PC) to go with the LTSC version of Windows. 11 LTSC is even out now if you want the most compatible version for gaming (I have seen some arguments that there are features in 11 that make games run better but I have yet to be able to really confirm this). Gives all of the advantages on compatibility (particularly for gaming, I even installed LTSC on my Steam Deck) with having a seriously stripped down version of Windows. Microsoft is very careful to make it seem like LTSC is so stripped down that it really only works for kiosks or similar devices, but it is perfectly capable as a general computing device. It is possible to install things that it is missing fairly easily, like if you need the Microsoft store (windows store? don't remember the name) to use the Xbox app it will prompt you to install the missing components. Edit: Since I got a couple comments about the license. I should have included that here. There is a github project for activation. Since it is perfectly viable but removes a lot of the crap that Microsoft wants to push of course they don't make it easy to get. But personally if I already have a legal copy of Windows 11 I have no moral problems with using this script to activate LTSC Version. Getting the ISO is easy with Microsoft providing them free to download. Edit again: Instead of replying to every comment regarding to just switch to linux I will edit my post here explaining why I have not. First off, is for me Windows is primarily for gaming. So compatibility and performance are my number one priority. Proton is great but you can't beat the compatibility of just using Windows. Never need to worry about an update breaking something or a game not working. It just does. In at least a few cases performance is even better on the LTSC version compared to SteamOS on my Steam Deck. I also don't want to be restricted to just using Steam for games or needing to jump through additional hoops to play from other stores. I play video games to relax, that isn't a time that I want to be tinkering or messing with my computer if something goes wrong.
- Zhyl 2y ago
  Are there trade-offs with this?
  - hurutparittya 2y ago
    The main trade-off is that you don't get to enjoy the benefits of upgrading to Linux instead :^)
newqer 2y ago
The only Microsoft account I have is my 20 year old hotmail that has an appropriate name for a 16 year old who discovered the internet. If I can't make a local account, I will not use it.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  I have a relatively recent Microsoft account, but at this point I refuse to even type it into my Windows computer. Given their user-hostile posture, I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have a keystroke logger listening for me typing my MS account into some other software. Then, it could pop up with "Surprise! We just upgraded your local account to this Microsoft account that we just saw you type in! Now you have to log in with your Microsoft account. Gotcha, sucker!"
  - malfist 2y ago
    > I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have a keystroke logger listening Wasn't their one included in the pre-release version of Windows 11 until public outcry about the "telemetry" microsoft was phoning home with? See also: Recall
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      It's very possible. I've honestly stopped counting the ways Microsoft is attacking my computer and network through Windows. At this point I treat the entire OS as adversarial, and go so far as isolating my few Windows machines onto their own VLAN where they can do the least damage.
  - zrobotics 2y ago
    I haven't dug into it, but I have a (personal) win10 machine that is used for a combination of gaming and some of my dev work (visual studio & .net). I recently needed to install excel on this machine, and used my work account. I believed I was only logging into MS office, but now that machine has printers added that are added on my machine at the office, so somehow logging into MS Office but on a local windows10 account added printers from a different network. I'm not surprised, but definitely demonstrating that there's potential for information leakage if using their online accounts.
throwaway71271 2y ago
I switched my gaming/ai pc from windows to linux few months ago, and I have to say gaming for linux is very doable now, I only had few issues with battle.net but now that its setup it works fine. And not to mention all torch and cuda stuff works just fine. I wrote a post about it recently: https://punkx.org/jackdoe/linux-desktop.html https://punkx.org/jackdoe/linux-desktop.html and using it few more months I can only say that the experience is even better. I even did dist and everything kept working. So if you are thinking of giving linux a chance, now is a good time :) My daughter's school is a "Microsoft school", and its basically forbidden to be with non Windows laptop.. even though everything works fine on macos/linux etc, even the safe exam browser. I have never been involved in her school's policies, but this is just ridiculous. The way Microsoft claws their ways into schools and governments is just brilliant. There is a mix of incompetence, corruptions and people's people fear of being fired, and sunk cost fallacy, and its just deadlocked.
- tapoxi 2y ago
  I did the same thing, I built my first new computer in years and was so annoyed at all the advertising in Windows I went full Linux for the first time in over a decade. I specifically went with an AMD GPU (7800XT) as well to avoid how wonky Nvidia is. Works really well, the only real issue is anti-cheat but I've just decided to play those games on console instead.
JamesSwift 2y ago
I'm not a daily driver of windows, but I keep it installed on 1 box for optionality and to act as a beafy steam streaming box. Its frustrating enough to fight through the microsoft account stuff in the more recent versions, but the thing that pisses me off the most is their insistence on adding and/or re-enabling things _on every update_. I dont login often but when I do theres yet another service enabled or re-enabled on startup that I need to remove. Its the most frustrating game of whack-a-mole ever. Dont even get me started on trying to do the same with my kids accounts on the same box. I suppose group policies are probably the answer but it shouldn't be this hard, and it shouldn't be this frustrating.
courseofaction 2y ago
Windows erased from my hard drive.
JamesSwift 2y ago
I'll ask here since I'm sure theres experience in the audience: it looks like theres no good answers for roblox on non-windows [1]? How about Minecraft Bedrock? Roblox and minecraft are the only things I really need to support in order to remove the windows install from my network. [1] - https://vinegarhq.org/Home/rol_faq.html#what-alternatives-do-we-have https://vinegarhq.org/Home/rol_faq.html#what-alternatives-do...
- RedCurrent 2y ago
  Unfortunately it's not possible on Linux, at least not natively. I've been there before and dual-boot windows out of exactly that reason. You can, however, use GPU passthrough and a Windows virtual machine. Another method is by using an Android emulator, though that has significant performance and QOL sacrifices attached to it.
  - JamesSwift 2y ago
    It sounded like the VM was a little more finicky than I'm used to so I was trying not to go there, but I'm not super worried about performance. Its for my kids and the computer is decent. Maybe I'll just remove this computer from the family rotation and call it a day. We got plenty of other devices they can game on, including a laptop that dual-boots macOS and windows. I stay out of that windows install entirely, so who knows what junk has accumulated at this point.
    - DEADMINCE 2y ago
      VMs are easier than ever now and those simple games like won't be upset they are running in a VM. Bonus is you can have snapshots and always restore to a working state no matter what the kids do to it.
      - jjmarr 2y ago
        Roblox isn't a simple game anymore. They have a new anticheat (Byfron) that detects virtual machines and refuses to start.
axus 2y ago
I've been using Microsoft accounts on Windows desktops for the last 5 years or so. The Minecraft change was probably the main push, now I know why they spent a billion dollars on that. When you've got a bunch of desktops and no Windows domain controller it's a good feature. Makes login and synching work pretty well. There hasn't been a visible downside compared to local logins, though not enough upsides for Microsoft to push it so hard. I use the "Microsoft Family Safety" features for limiting application usage and daily login times. This is the only real benefit I've gotten, but it's a good one. Don't have an Xbox but I hear some nice features for that were messed up recently.
geor9e 2y ago
I get how they made their sign up funnel confusing, but I personally didn't need a guide to make a local account. It was all right there in the setup UI, if you click around. I believe it just took a "skip" or "cancel" or "no thanks" or two, nothing too outrageous. I love my Debian laptop and my Mac laptop, but few people are about to give up an entire OS over petty annoyances where workarounds exist. Windows has survived countless silly experiments like this over the decades. Windows could require you to Skype a video of your butt to Satya Nadella to log in, and half the world would still do it, that's how wide their moat is. So much AAA software locked in as Windows-only. Solidworks, Cyberpunk 2077, etc. Just being the contrarian to the expected Hacker News sentiment of "microsoft just killed itself".
ezfe 2y ago
Apple used to allow signing in locally with an iCloud password. Now they actively forbid using the same password for local and iCloud accounts...
- EasyMark 2y ago
  That was such a dumb and annoying change in their policy. More coddling.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
EasyMark 2y ago
Right there are much friendlier ones like pop os and mint.
npteljes 2y ago
If someone is looking for a Windows-replacement Linux machine, I'd like to plug Zorin OS. It's Ubuntu-based, and the most seamless out of the box experience I had with Linux. I just installed my stuff from the GUI software center and it was good to go.
metadat 2y ago
Microsoft appears to be doing everything it can to ensure the majority of power users abandon Windows and switch to Linux desktop. Once Win10 stops receiving security updates, I'm unlikely to bother installiny Windows 11. I don't really need it, as most games work fine thanks to the Valve Steam efforts. It's kind of sad, I've always had at least one Windows machine as my primary desktop since 1998.
exsomet 2y ago
Around a year or so ago, I made a new rule for myself: Stop giving money and support to people and organizations that openly show disdain for me. It originally came from getting tired of watching (in this case, WoW) streamers talk about how stupid and out of touch “chat” (a group that includes me) is in one breath and then ask for support/subscriptions in the next, but I started applying it to the other things that I consume as well. In this case, here we have a very clear effort by lots of people to not be tracked, and Microsoft making concerted efforts to take away the thing they want for the purpose of making more money. It’s not feasible to be absolute in this - I still need to put gas in my car and eat, for example. But I find there’s a strangely good feeling to walking away from someone who’s making presumptions about their right to my time, attention, and money while spitting in my face, and I feel like I’m a normal enough person to be a reasonable barometer on that sentiment. So I guess my point is, I wonder how many times a company like Microsoft can spit in their customers faces before the average person decides to not be a customer anymore.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > But I find there’s a strangely good feeling to walking away from someone who’s making presumptions about their right to my time, attention, and money while spitting in my face, and I feel like I’m a normal enough person to be a reasonable barometer on that sentiment. This reminds of the dungeon scene in Monthy Python's Life of Brian. "Prisoner: Oh, what I wouldn't give to be spat at in the face. I sometimes hang awake at night dreaming of being spat at in the face. "
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  Stream chatters must be some of the weakest minded people I've ever come across. It's very sad.
  - exsomet 2y ago
    I’m sure the dynamics of multiple people in an online chatroom and the effects on their mindset are well above my ability to understand, but I think it’s a lot simpler than that. Streaming is a business with the goal of getting people who walk into your (virtual) shop to give you their (subscription) money, just like every other business that has ever existed. The product being sold is the streamer’s personality and ability to entertain. If your business model involves insulting those people, I don’t think it’s really sensible or a good sign for the long term sustainability of that business to declare them weak minded when they predictably find that being insulted is not something they’d like to pay for. Then again, I’m not a streamer. Maybe they know something I don’t.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
What about macos? Is it easier to install and use without an account?
- Throw_Away_1049 2y ago
  Yes. During setup, there’s an explicit “no account” option.
rldjbpin 2y ago
streissand effect in play maybe? i think they lose more from this getting publicized than any losses from having this publicly available for the week or so.
t0bia_s 2y ago
There are ways how to create local account during Windows installation. It worked for me few months ago. https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-set-up-microsoft-windows-with-local-account https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-set-up-microsoft-windows...

199 points by belter 2y ago

eps 2y ago

Microsoft's end goal is "Windows as a subscription service". Has always been since Windows 10 times if not earlier. All these little nasty anti-user bits stem directly from that.

MilaM 2y ago
I'm pretty confident, that Apple has the same goal. We are not there yet, but how else will they satisfy shareholders with ever-growing profits?
- xattt 2y ago
  > how else will they satisfy shareholders with ever-growing profits? Typing as a service, with characters billed by the keystroke. A mixture of Wheel of Fortune and Scrabble rules apply. Vowels are free, but rare consonants or letter combinations carry a premium. /s
- nerdjon 2y ago
  I highly doubt it, Apple has not charged for Mac for 10 years. They have the profits from hardware and the upgrade cycle as new versions drop old hardware. I imagine if anything we will see a program like the iPhone upgrade program come to Mac. That would better fit their existing workflow anyways.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    They charge up front with their margins.
  - rafram 2y ago
    There’s just no way very many people would pay for a Mac upgrade program. The iPhone one works by having you pay the monthly installment price for the phone forever. That’s usually in the $30-40/month range, which many people can stomach in exchange for guaranteed new phones every year. But Mac installment prices are $200+ a month. There just isn’t a market for a laptop subscription that costs as much as car insurance.
    - nerdjon 2y ago
      A Mac Upgrade program doesn't have to be the same upgrade cycle, same if they went the route of doing an iPad upgrade program. It would also help minimize the need to try to future proof your choice. I know when I go to buy a Mac I often way over spec since I am planning for at least 3 or 4 years. That conversation is completely different if I know I am getting an upgrade in 1 or 2 years. Meanwhile if the Mac Upgrade Program could be, idk a 2 year upgrade plan. Looking at the cheapest 16" M3 Max MBP. Right now that is $291.58 month for 12 months. If a Mac Upgrade Plan did the same timeline as iPhone where you paid over 2 years but could upgrade after a year that would be about $147.28. But it could likely be a 3 or 4 year timeline and be even cheaper. If we look at the lower end it gets even cheaper with the cheapest 16" MBP could be $104 a month. The cheapest 14" MPB could be $66.5 a month. Keeps going cheaper if you look at the Air. I feel like at that price the market very much exists when the top iPhone is $74.91 a month. The question is if the numbers make sense on Apple's side.
  - bluescrn 2y ago
    Apple is almost a subscription service. You just pay in huge installments once every 2-5 years, by replacing the entire device when the battery degrades or performance is starting to feel underwhelming.
    - torstenvl 2y ago
      Why not just change the battery?
      - bluescrn 2y ago
        Because it's been made intentionally difficult, with significant risk of further damaging the product you're trying to repair. And there's no official supply of replacements. A battery change shouldn't require heat guns, special suction/clamp tools, or adhesive-dissolving chemicals. It also shouldn't require being without your device for an unknown period of time to send it in for service.
        fckgw 2y ago
        Ok, but a battery replacement is possible. You don't just throw it away. I've gotten battery replacements on various iPhones, iPads and Macbooks and it's a pretty straightforward processes.
        the_snooze 2y ago
        Reading through bluescrn's comments, it seems like anything short of "I can easily replace the battery myself" is unacceptable. Would I like to be able to replace the battery in my Apple devices myself? Absolutely. Is it an unreasonable amount of money and effort to have the Apple Store do it? Not at all. Getting them to replace the battery is no big deal. If there's something to complain about, it's that they (probably intentionally) don't do a good job advertising their battery service.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- mschuster91 2y ago
  As long as Apple charges > 1k $ for a 2TB SSD, a 5x markup on competition, they'll be fine. Apple is a hardware company first, then an App Store rent seeker, and a software company third. [1] https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/mac/accessories/storage https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/mac/accessories/storage
  - 7thpower 2y ago
    I am not as cynical as others about the compromises Apple is willing to make to grow, but it is worth noting that Tim sure does talk about services a lot: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/05/apple-reports-second-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/05/apple-reports-second-...
  - walterbell 2y ago
    The Apple storage tax also creates #DongleLife, as port quotas discourage dedicating a port to external storage like the tiny Ultra Fit, https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-128GB-Ultra-Flash-Drive/dp/B07855LJ99 https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-128GB-Ultra-Flash-Drive/dp/B07....
Throw_Away_1049 2y ago
I purchased the new ARM laptop Surface. It’s wild how they attempt to optimize Windows. >Ads in Outlook. Want to remove? $2 a month. >Want to use Windows productivity software? $100 a year. >Want to use more copilot features? $20 a month. >Want to game? Please use our subscription Xbox service. Etc etc.
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  Sincere question: are those examples real, or hyperbole?
  - Throw_Away_1049 2y ago
    Good question. Unfortunately it’s real.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Most of those are essentially hyperbole. The ads in Outlook are if you're using the free @outlook.com email address. I'm using it with a Zoho email account and I haven't seen ads. Windows productivity software? Office? Obviously, it is a paid software suite. Always has been. No surprise they're not giving it away. It is not like this is some new thing behind a paywall suddenly. Sure, back in the day it was pretty common for an average home PC to come with at least some version of Microsoft Works, but technically that was an OEM-licensed basic productivity software suite, not actually free. In the end it was just that Dell, HP, Compaq, or whoever was paying for it to put it on the list of out of the box features. More Copilot features for $20 a month? It is essentially a custom flavor of OpenAI with some more hooks and context. It is no surprise a hosted AI service that normally costs $20/mo continues to cost $20/mo. You don't need Xbox Game Pass to play games in Windows. Steam, GOG, etc. all still work perfectly fine without it. Game Pass is all about subscribing to a lot of games, including many AAA $60+ games. Let me know when Apple Music and Apple TV+ goes completely free. It is like arguing "Want to listen to music on an iPhone? Gotta pay for Apple Music. Want to watch videos on your Macbook? Need to pay for Apple TV+ streaming service. Want to send an email? Gotta pay for an iCloud subscription. Want to use headphones with your Apple device? Guess you have to buy Airpods."
at_a_remove 2y ago
I knew a guy who worked at Microsoft and was sending me NT 5 (later called Windows 2000) alphas to try out. Even then, the goal was to have an electric bill, a gas bill, and a "Bill" bill.

PlutoIsAPlanet 2y ago

Microsoft loves pushing people to buy macOS devices it would seem. Windows really does have the potential to be ideal for professionals, the things macOS does that make it better are all small but Microsoft just seems to paramount on sabotaging their operating system. I really feel sorry for OEMs that really don't have a choice but to ship Windows and have to stomach this shit being associated with their products.

Zambyte 2y ago
Why don't they have a choice? Contractual agreements?
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  Linux isn't actually a serious competitor in this space.
  - yonatan8070 2y ago
    I've seen laptops from large OEMs likr HP and Lenovo that ship with Ubuntu by default
    - consp 2y ago
      My guess is the reason for this is the lower default prize displayed, since in some regions they have to include the OS price in the total (or deduct it when you don't want it).
    - davidmurdoch 2y ago
      Sure, and I've bought those for myself. Doesn't change the fact that they're (perceived as) useless for nearly all business use cases.
      - Zambyte 2y ago
        > Doesn't change the fact that they're (perceived as) useless for nearly all business use cases. That seems like the OEMs choice? Valve doesn't seem to be struggling with marketing non Windows for a usecase that was seen as "unsupported" until they came along.

neilv 2y ago

Debian Stable (Linux) welcomes escapees from lobster boiling: https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/ https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-dvd/

happymellon 2y ago
In terms of laptop compatibility because I need it all to be as cutting edge as possible, with minimum fuss, I moved to Fedora and not looked back. For everything else, Debian is great.
- whalesalad 2y ago
  Did you run into any specific issues with Debian?
  - happymellon 2y ago
    Yes, the kernel was too old so my Ryzen didn't perform great. I could have gone through enabling backports, but I could also have just gone Fedora and not have to mess around with things I shouldn't need to.
- turdistheword 2y ago
  Well, Pop!_OS is a fantastic choice. Plus, there’s a ISO version with Nvidia drivers. Pop is perfect for those coming from Windows.
delfinom 2y ago
Does it have a gui based update manager that doesn't require me to enter my password because it ducktapes sudo on top? God, the ubuntu one is the worst as it'll sometimes prompt multiple times for a password.
- neilv 2y ago
  IME, the GUI updates work out of the box with the default Debian desktop, no prompting for passwords. I guess Ubuntu behavior you saw might've been due to their Snap package stuff, not the normal Debian APT package stuff.

23B1 2y ago

This is great. The sooner MSFT kills itself in this way, the sooner major institutions who are tired of this can switch to alternatives.

w3ll_w3ll_w3ll 2y ago
Only consumer version of Windows (Home and Pro) have the Microsoft Account requirement.
- punchmesan 2y ago
  Pro can still get around it, as Pro is not actually a consumer edition. To get around it with business editions of Windows you select the option to add the computer to a domain. The domain join process doesn't happen during OOBE, so you're prompted to make a local account. Then you can just carry on without joining a domain.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    Home & Pro can get around it with OOBE\bypassnro and not being connected to the net. Then you get the local account option.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  For now
255kb 2y ago
Windows market share and MSFT stock are laughing at your comment
- 23B1 2y ago
  Blockbuster market share and stock are laughing at your comment

Dalewyn 2y ago

Keep in mind this article is kind of clickbait: >the instructions on how to do the latter appeared on June 12, 2024, then disappeared on June 17, 2024. The information was only ever published for 5 days.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bitcharmer 2y ago
So the title is accurate. MS did remove the information

hiddencost 2y ago

I only have a windows machine for gaming... Eyes on Valve as they March towards Linux being a first class gaming platform.

daedalus_j 2y ago
It's pretty dang close. The only games I've had problems with in recent years were non-steam. Once Overwatch died and everything I was playing was in Steam I found myself rebooting into windows a lot less often. Getting your hardware working right is still the biggest problem. The games work great, occasionally audio/video driver issues necessitate some fiddling. (advantage to the Deck is that this goes away.)
cypress66 2y ago
It's so far behind though. Linux still doesn't support VRR or HDR.
- Zhyl 2y ago
  HDR is coming. The OLED steam deck supports it, for example.
- tapoxi 2y ago
  I'm on Fedora 40 KDE, both VRR and HDR are supported.
- SpaceNugget 2y ago
  I have had both freesync and gsync workingwith no fuss for literal years. First with a 1070 and then with a 6800xt. I have never owned an HDR monitor so I can't personally speak to how well that works, but apparently it works just fine on the steam deck. Even if it didn't, the number of people for whom HDR support is a make or break feature is likely not very high. Non developers use linux daily with the steam deck. I set up my mom with my xps 15 with Ubuntu on it when her laptop mobo died. While she wasn't a huge fan of having to learn a new UI, she was able to use it without issue for facebook/email/netflix/taxes/online banking for a few months until a good deal on a replacement came up and I got my laptop back. I don't think if you are objective you can call linux so far behind windows. They are on par, each has their own annoyances and strengths, but for the average person they are just web browsing machines anyway.

internet101010 2y ago

I had to get around this last week during a vm install. Shift+F10, OOBE\BYPASSNRO, Shift+F10, ipconfig /release, install, ipconfig /renew. That's a lot of work for the average person and it's only a matter of time before they disable that command.

prettymuchnoone 2y ago
not sure if it's true (i haven't tried installing anything later than 23h2 i think), but i heard that oobe\bypassnro doesn't even work anymore https://x.com/TheBobPony/status/1797517797624598988 https://x.com/TheBobPony/status/1797517797624598988
- Throw_Away_1049 2y ago
  I did it yesterday on a brand new Surface 7 Copilot+ Laptop (such a dumb name…).
- ziddoap 2y ago
  It still works as of June 21st. Did it on a new laptop that came with W11 Home.
hurutparittya 2y ago
People will ask me why I'm 'torturing' myself with Linux while their preferred OS requires inputting the Konami code just to install properly.
- ndriscoll 2y ago
  It's like there's a memory of configuring xorg.conf or wpa_supplicant that just won't go away even when that stuff has Just Worked for 15 years. Even Nixos (which isn't at all a noob friendly distribution) has a desktop installer where you just click next like 5 times.
- benhurmarcel 2y ago
  Most people just put their Microsoft account and are done with it. It installs fine.

buro9 2y ago

I wouldn't mind if Microsoft didn't keep breaking Windows PIN and Windows Hello. Enabled it on a private PC but a different account (a work one) owns the Office license, and now Windows knows that there is an account that owns the Windows license and a different account that owns the Office license. Result? All kinds of fun that looks like this https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-hello-pin-this-option-is-currently/ba9596e1-fa6a-483b-8f64-45234bedce7e https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/window... and has many many recommended answers, of which none worked. What did work, was removing the work account via Accounts > Work or School, and falling back to a local account and password for Windows. At least I can sign in to the machine again.

nerdjon 2y ago

I would encourage anyone who is comfortable with reinstalling Windows (or knows someone, I am about to do this to my partners PC) to go with the LTSC version of Windows. 11 LTSC is even out now if you want the most compatible version for gaming (I have seen some arguments that there are features in 11 that make games run better but I have yet to be able to really confirm this). Gives all of the advantages on compatibility (particularly for gaming, I even installed LTSC on my Steam Deck) with having a seriously stripped down version of Windows. Microsoft is very careful to make it seem like LTSC is so stripped down that it really only works for kiosks or similar devices, but it is perfectly capable as a general computing device. It is possible to install things that it is missing fairly easily, like if you need the Microsoft store (windows store? don't remember the name) to use the Xbox app it will prompt you to install the missing components. Edit: Since I got a couple comments about the license. I should have included that here. There is a github project for activation. Since it is perfectly viable but removes a lot of the crap that Microsoft wants to push of course they don't make it easy to get. But personally if I already have a legal copy of Windows 11 I have no moral problems with using this script to activate LTSC Version. Getting the ISO is easy with Microsoft providing them free to download. Edit again: Instead of replying to every comment regarding to just switch to linux I will edit my post here explaining why I have not. First off, is for me Windows is primarily for gaming. So compatibility and performance are my number one priority. Proton is great but you can't beat the compatibility of just using Windows. Never need to worry about an update breaking something or a game not working. It just does. In at least a few cases performance is even better on the LTSC version compared to SteamOS on my Steam Deck. I also don't want to be restricted to just using Steam for games or needing to jump through additional hoops to play from other stores. I play video games to relax, that isn't a time that I want to be tinkering or messing with my computer if something goes wrong.

Zhyl 2y ago
Are there trade-offs with this?
- hurutparittya 2y ago
  The main trade-off is that you don't get to enjoy the benefits of upgrading to Linux instead :^)

newqer 2y ago

The only Microsoft account I have is my 20 year old hotmail that has an appropriate name for a 16 year old who discovered the internet. If I can't make a local account, I will not use it.

ryandrake 2y ago
I have a relatively recent Microsoft account, but at this point I refuse to even type it into my Windows computer. Given their user-hostile posture, I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have a keystroke logger listening for me typing my MS account into some other software. Then, it could pop up with "Surprise! We just upgraded your local account to this Microsoft account that we just saw you type in! Now you have to log in with your Microsoft account. Gotcha, sucker!"
- malfist 2y ago
  > I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have a keystroke logger listening Wasn't their one included in the pre-release version of Windows 11 until public outcry about the "telemetry" microsoft was phoning home with? See also: Recall
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    It's very possible. I've honestly stopped counting the ways Microsoft is attacking my computer and network through Windows. At this point I treat the entire OS as adversarial, and go so far as isolating my few Windows machines onto their own VLAN where they can do the least damage.
- zrobotics 2y ago
  I haven't dug into it, but I have a (personal) win10 machine that is used for a combination of gaming and some of my dev work (visual studio & .net). I recently needed to install excel on this machine, and used my work account. I believed I was only logging into MS office, but now that machine has printers added that are added on my machine at the office, so somehow logging into MS Office but on a local windows10 account added printers from a different network. I'm not surprised, but definitely demonstrating that there's potential for information leakage if using their online accounts.

throwaway71271 2y ago

I switched my gaming/ai pc from windows to linux few months ago, and I have to say gaming for linux is very doable now, I only had few issues with battle.net but now that its setup it works fine. And not to mention all torch and cuda stuff works just fine. I wrote a post about it recently: https://punkx.org/jackdoe/linux-desktop.html https://punkx.org/jackdoe/linux-desktop.html and using it few more months I can only say that the experience is even better. I even did dist and everything kept working. So if you are thinking of giving linux a chance, now is a good time :) My daughter's school is a "Microsoft school", and its basically forbidden to be with non Windows laptop.. even though everything works fine on macos/linux etc, even the safe exam browser. I have never been involved in her school's policies, but this is just ridiculous. The way Microsoft claws their ways into schools and governments is just brilliant. There is a mix of incompetence, corruptions and people's people fear of being fired, and sunk cost fallacy, and its just deadlocked.

tapoxi 2y ago
I did the same thing, I built my first new computer in years and was so annoyed at all the advertising in Windows I went full Linux for the first time in over a decade. I specifically went with an AMD GPU (7800XT) as well to avoid how wonky Nvidia is. Works really well, the only real issue is anti-cheat but I've just decided to play those games on console instead.

JamesSwift 2y ago

I'm not a daily driver of windows, but I keep it installed on 1 box for optionality and to act as a beafy steam streaming box. Its frustrating enough to fight through the microsoft account stuff in the more recent versions, but the thing that pisses me off the most is their insistence on adding and/or re-enabling things _on every update_. I dont login often but when I do theres yet another service enabled or re-enabled on startup that I need to remove. Its the most frustrating game of whack-a-mole ever. Dont even get me started on trying to do the same with my kids accounts on the same box. I suppose group policies are probably the answer but it shouldn't be this hard, and it shouldn't be this frustrating.

courseofaction 2y ago

Windows erased from my hard drive.

JamesSwift 2y ago

I'll ask here since I'm sure theres experience in the audience: it looks like theres no good answers for roblox on non-windows [1]? How about Minecraft Bedrock? Roblox and minecraft are the only things I really need to support in order to remove the windows install from my network. [1] - https://vinegarhq.org/Home/rol_faq.html#what-alternatives-do-we-have https://vinegarhq.org/Home/rol_faq.html#what-alternatives-do...

RedCurrent 2y ago
Unfortunately it's not possible on Linux, at least not natively. I've been there before and dual-boot windows out of exactly that reason. You can, however, use GPU passthrough and a Windows virtual machine. Another method is by using an Android emulator, though that has significant performance and QOL sacrifices attached to it.
- JamesSwift 2y ago
  It sounded like the VM was a little more finicky than I'm used to so I was trying not to go there, but I'm not super worried about performance. Its for my kids and the computer is decent. Maybe I'll just remove this computer from the family rotation and call it a day. We got plenty of other devices they can game on, including a laptop that dual-boots macOS and windows. I stay out of that windows install entirely, so who knows what junk has accumulated at this point.
  - DEADMINCE 2y ago
    VMs are easier than ever now and those simple games like won't be upset they are running in a VM. Bonus is you can have snapshots and always restore to a working state no matter what the kids do to it.
    - jjmarr 2y ago
      Roblox isn't a simple game anymore. They have a new anticheat (Byfron) that detects virtual machines and refuses to start.

axus 2y ago

I've been using Microsoft accounts on Windows desktops for the last 5 years or so. The Minecraft change was probably the main push, now I know why they spent a billion dollars on that. When you've got a bunch of desktops and no Windows domain controller it's a good feature. Makes login and synching work pretty well. There hasn't been a visible downside compared to local logins, though not enough upsides for Microsoft to push it so hard. I use the "Microsoft Family Safety" features for limiting application usage and daily login times. This is the only real benefit I've gotten, but it's a good one. Don't have an Xbox but I hear some nice features for that were messed up recently.

geor9e 2y ago

I get how they made their sign up funnel confusing, but I personally didn't need a guide to make a local account. It was all right there in the setup UI, if you click around. I believe it just took a "skip" or "cancel" or "no thanks" or two, nothing too outrageous. I love my Debian laptop and my Mac laptop, but few people are about to give up an entire OS over petty annoyances where workarounds exist. Windows has survived countless silly experiments like this over the decades. Windows could require you to Skype a video of your butt to Satya Nadella to log in, and half the world would still do it, that's how wide their moat is. So much AAA software locked in as Windows-only. Solidworks, Cyberpunk 2077, etc. Just being the contrarian to the expected Hacker News sentiment of "microsoft just killed itself".

ezfe 2y ago

Apple used to allow signing in locally with an iCloud password. Now they actively forbid using the same password for local and iCloud accounts...

EasyMark 2y ago
That was such a dumb and annoying change in their policy. More coddling.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

EasyMark 2y ago

Right there are much friendlier ones like pop os and mint.

npteljes 2y ago

If someone is looking for a Windows-replacement Linux machine, I'd like to plug Zorin OS. It's Ubuntu-based, and the most seamless out of the box experience I had with Linux. I just installed my stuff from the GUI software center and it was good to go.

metadat 2y ago

Microsoft appears to be doing everything it can to ensure the majority of power users abandon Windows and switch to Linux desktop. Once Win10 stops receiving security updates, I'm unlikely to bother installiny Windows 11. I don't really need it, as most games work fine thanks to the Valve Steam efforts. It's kind of sad, I've always had at least one Windows machine as my primary desktop since 1998.

exsomet 2y ago

Around a year or so ago, I made a new rule for myself: Stop giving money and support to people and organizations that openly show disdain for me. It originally came from getting tired of watching (in this case, WoW) streamers talk about how stupid and out of touch “chat” (a group that includes me) is in one breath and then ask for support/subscriptions in the next, but I started applying it to the other things that I consume as well. In this case, here we have a very clear effort by lots of people to not be tracked, and Microsoft making concerted efforts to take away the thing they want for the purpose of making more money. It’s not feasible to be absolute in this - I still need to put gas in my car and eat, for example. But I find there’s a strangely good feeling to walking away from someone who’s making presumptions about their right to my time, attention, and money while spitting in my face, and I feel like I’m a normal enough person to be a reasonable barometer on that sentiment. So I guess my point is, I wonder how many times a company like Microsoft can spit in their customers faces before the average person decides to not be a customer anymore.

hulitu 2y ago
> But I find there’s a strangely good feeling to walking away from someone who’s making presumptions about their right to my time, attention, and money while spitting in my face, and I feel like I’m a normal enough person to be a reasonable barometer on that sentiment. This reminds of the dungeon scene in Monthy Python's Life of Brian. "Prisoner: Oh, what I wouldn't give to be spat at in the face. I sometimes hang awake at night dreaming of being spat at in the face. "
seoulmetro 2y ago
Stream chatters must be some of the weakest minded people I've ever come across. It's very sad.
- exsomet 2y ago
  I’m sure the dynamics of multiple people in an online chatroom and the effects on their mindset are well above my ability to understand, but I think it’s a lot simpler than that. Streaming is a business with the goal of getting people who walk into your (virtual) shop to give you their (subscription) money, just like every other business that has ever existed. The product being sold is the streamer’s personality and ability to entertain. If your business model involves insulting those people, I don’t think it’s really sensible or a good sign for the long term sustainability of that business to declare them weak minded when they predictably find that being insulted is not something they’d like to pay for. Then again, I’m not a streamer. Maybe they know something I don’t.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago

What about macos? Is it easier to install and use without an account?

Throw_Away_1049 2y ago
Yes. During setup, there’s an explicit “no account” option.

rldjbpin 2y ago

streissand effect in play maybe? i think they lose more from this getting publicized than any losses from having this publicly available for the week or so.

t0bia_s 2y ago

There are ways how to create local account during Windows installation. It worked for me few months ago. https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-set-up-microsoft-windows-with-local-account https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-set-up-microsoft-windows...