11 ms·

Two things happen at the same time: 1. people say that robots are taking all the jobs 2. countries raise retirement age & adopt 6 day work week, because there

by krasin 2y ago

Two things happen at the same time: 1. people say that robots are taking all the jobs 2. countries raise retirement age & adopt 6 day work week, because there's too much work to be done I am not entirely sure, but maybe robots are not that bad, assuming appropriate taxation to fund pensions & 5-day work weeks?

klysm 2y ago
No amount of automation has ever seemed to result in a net reduction in work to do thus far
- Imnimo 2y ago
  https://ourworldindata.org/working-more-than-ever https://ourworldindata.org/working-more-than-ever
- echoangle 2y ago
  Why would it? It’s not like the amount of work to do is fixed and once it’s done, everyone can relax for the rest of the year. There’s always work to do and progress just speeds up as work becomes more efficient.
  - MiguelX413 2y ago
    Why not just stop once we've done the same work as in the past?
    - xboxnolifes 2y ago
      Because, thus far, people have always wanted more.
    - brewtide 2y ago
      Shiny new phones every year, bigger better faster shinier cars, Fancier meals, must have gadgets, keeping a keen eye on the Jones's, better fuller lawn without weeds, that paved driveway you've always wanted, a faster computer, better heating systems, brand name clothing... When needs and wants get all mixed up, there is always more to be done.
      - red-iron-pine 2y ago
        just say it man: capitalism creates new needs to justify working you extra hard
    - echoangle 2y ago
      Is there nothing to improve in your life? Was there nothing to improve in the 50s? Would you like supersonic commercial flights for everyone and photorealistic computer games? Electric cars and larger houses? You can also do better and improve the life of everyone. That’s not even considering the improvements impoverished countries around the world have experienced in the recent decades, have a look at Africa.
      - plsbenice34 2y ago
        My desire to work less eclipses any desire for any of those things. I do not believe that lives are being improved. It only benefits the rich that don't have to work because there is no downside for them and they only gain more power through the system
        echoangle 2y ago
        I would rather work full time now than part time in the 50s, I think. I haven’t lived in the 50s though so I can’t say for sure.
      - coldtea 2y ago
        >Is there nothing to improve in your life? Yes: less work primarily.
- TomatoCo 2y ago
  Sounds like a labor version of Jevon's Paradox, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox where increases in efficiency cause a resource to be consumed more, not less.
- jlarocco 2y ago
  That kind of misrepresents the situation because our social and economic systems screw over the employees whose jobs are automated away. Initially there's the same amount of work, but if they don't find something else to do, they won't be able to pay their bills or buy food, and they'll be out on the street. So we end up with crappy, low pay service jobs that only exist so people have some way to scrape out a living. The business owners benefit from automation, the employees lose.
  - barbariangrunge 2y ago
    Nobody is hiring armies of workers just so those workers can “scrape out a living.” Companies cut jobs, they rarely create them for charity
- imiric 2y ago
  Because the gains from increased productivity have been reaped by executives, not workers. You keep working the same hours to make your bosses more money, when you could be working less instead. This income gap has been widening since the 1970s[1,2]. [1]: https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide-to-statistics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide... [2]: https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/ https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
  - Aerroon 2y ago
    This cannot be true. Imagine your job is producing chairs. You make 1 chair per day. Now you get a machine that improves your productivity and you can make 4 chairs per day, but your pay doesn't increase, instead the executives pocket all of it! But what about the 3 extra chairs? Somebody somewhere gets chairs that wouldn't have got them if you had been producing 1 chair per day. Wealth is about stuff, not money. If more stuff is produced (that is useful) then people become wealthier. So unless those executives are somehow taking all those extra chairs themselves there must be done other beneficiary from the extra productivity. It's far more likely that regular people have a growing desire for more stuff than the executives using up all those extra products themselves.
    - barbariangrunge 2y ago
      What about advertising?
      - Aerroon 2y ago
        I don't think advertising is what creates a desire for a product. I think that desire exists beforehand and advertising mobilizes it. I didn't know I wanted a smartphone. Ads didn't make me want a smartphone. But when I got a smartphone I knew I wanted one.
    - selcuka 2y ago
      > Now you get a machine that improves your productivity and you can make 4 chairs per day, but your pay doesn't increase You are looking from a single worker's perspective. A more realistic example is 4 workers used to make 4 chairs per day, and now 3 workers can make the same number of chairs. Boss makes more money. No net gain for the remaining 3 workers (and the laid off worker has to find another job, potentially for a lower salary).
- pjerem 2y ago
  That’s because we use automation to solve problems and create needs we never had. I mean, nowadays we solved pretty any need the average human had 100 years ago. Our leaders are convinced that we must grow and grow, but we basically have everything we need to be a happy species in the long term. What we are doing now is working (here 6 days a week) to solve inexistant problems marketers are creating while going full throttle both in burn-out and in the environmental wall. In the meantime, while we are working hard releasing SaaS softwares, there have never been fewer farmers which, historically, have been the job of pretty any human in the last millennia. If we don’t change this paradigm, we are at risk of dying stupidly from climate induced famine or wars just because we needed the latest smartphone. Don’t get me wrong : I understand how at the end of the day, in the current system, all of this supports our basic needs. But we need to think about another system because we are going to destroy environment and human psyche.
lr4444lr 2y ago
3. Greece's unemployment rate is almost 11%. What a bizarre situation.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  One wonders if increasing the compensation offered for these jobs might result in less vacancies. I mean, I've heard theories (only theories, mind you) that this could have some effect. Seems unlikely, but maybe worth a try?
  - SeanAnderson 2y ago
    I don't know a lot about Greek economy. It seems like it could be a scenario where consumers can't afford higher prices. If prices goes up then consumers bail, companies go out of business, unemployment goes down but total available jobs goes down, too. Instead, everyone's grinding their way to the bottom which isn't great, either.
    - Arnt 2y ago
      The Greek economy is highly seasonal. There's tourist season and off season.
  - stavros 2y ago
    There are no vacancies. On the contrary, there's a whole slew of 20-somethings willing to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for six months for 1k/mo so they have some money during the winter.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
      From TFA: > However, at least the pay is good on Mykonos, which cannot be said for some of the less well-known Greek holiday destinations. > All of this is why hotel-owners in regions like the popular Chalkidiki peninsula in northern Greece are having trouble finding enough workers. As a result, some restaurants and hotels in Greece will open late this summer.
theamk 2y ago
First sentence of the article: > From the construction industry to the tourism sector... those are the jobs which robots cannot currently take. And even for jobs which robots can do (manufacturing), they won't be used if the salaries are so low that humans are cheaper.
squidbeak 2y ago
Automation's in its infancy. What makes you assume you can draw any conclusions about its effects in its maturity from the current economic situation in Greece?
okasaki 2y ago
Much of the improvement in working conditions, general welfare and home ownership came from western elites' fear of communism. As that fear recedes, elites feel more comfortable squeezing us.
- CapstanRoller 2y ago
  they're not "elite" they just have more government rectangles than us
emporas 2y ago
People not working at all, or working significantly less, is not acceptable by any political system of the western countries. The proof here, is the exponential rate in which debt goes up. That debt is directly funding the anti-automation each political system imposes. In other words, automation has to be stopped, and it's gonna take as much money as it needs. This anti-automation process, created the biggest bubbles in history, equity bubble, real estate bubble, government bond bubble, pharma bubble, cryptocurrency bubble, currency bubble in short TEB(The Everything Bubble). That's gonna end of course, and soon. It has just started yesterday actually with some triple A derivatives blowing up again like in 2007. By the end of the summer, the first bubbles will start popping off. It's gonna be fun. [EDIT] There are more bubbles, I just put some in there. [EDIT] The triple A blowing up is not correct.
- exe34 2y ago
  if people have too much time on their hands, they start to organise and ask for their fair share.
  - emporas 2y ago
    Well, i know a lot about history, political systems when they are at the end of the road, no one really competent can even come close to be a leader. When an incompetent person thinks of a solution to a problem, they choose the worst solution. In addition to that, there is also the possibility, that political systems themselves will be automated, not 100%, but close to 95% or 99%.
- RandomLensman 2y ago
  What triple A derivatives are blowing up?
  - emporas 2y ago
    George Gammon made a video yesterday about it. I don't personally know what derivatives even mean, but i do know in 2007 something like that happened, triple A derivatives of mortgages or something. Even if that's not it, the bubbles will start pop off soon, end of summer or end of the year, and it will take years for the process to complete, 5 years probably. For 5 years, each bubble will pop one by one. My point is, at the end of the process, and only then, serious automation will start to happen, because they will not have the ammo to stop it. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QQ_CcNPXjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QQ_CcNPXjQ
boring-alterego 2y ago
4 or 3 day work weeks are better.
navane 2y ago
The robots aren't paying any taxes. The countries pay for retirements from people's taxes.

by krasin 2y ago

klysm 2y ago

No amount of automation has ever seemed to result in a net reduction in work to do thus far

Imnimo 2y ago
https://ourworldindata.org/working-more-than-ever https://ourworldindata.org/working-more-than-ever
echoangle 2y ago
Why would it? It’s not like the amount of work to do is fixed and once it’s done, everyone can relax for the rest of the year. There’s always work to do and progress just speeds up as work becomes more efficient.
- MiguelX413 2y ago
  Why not just stop once we've done the same work as in the past?
  - xboxnolifes 2y ago
    Because, thus far, people have always wanted more.
  - brewtide 2y ago
    Shiny new phones every year, bigger better faster shinier cars, Fancier meals, must have gadgets, keeping a keen eye on the Jones's, better fuller lawn without weeds, that paved driveway you've always wanted, a faster computer, better heating systems, brand name clothing... When needs and wants get all mixed up, there is always more to be done.
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      just say it man: capitalism creates new needs to justify working you extra hard
  - echoangle 2y ago
    Is there nothing to improve in your life? Was there nothing to improve in the 50s? Would you like supersonic commercial flights for everyone and photorealistic computer games? Electric cars and larger houses? You can also do better and improve the life of everyone. That’s not even considering the improvements impoverished countries around the world have experienced in the recent decades, have a look at Africa.
    - plsbenice34 2y ago
      My desire to work less eclipses any desire for any of those things. I do not believe that lives are being improved. It only benefits the rich that don't have to work because there is no downside for them and they only gain more power through the system
      - echoangle 2y ago
        I would rather work full time now than part time in the 50s, I think. I haven’t lived in the 50s though so I can’t say for sure.
    - coldtea 2y ago
      >Is there nothing to improve in your life? Yes: less work primarily.
TomatoCo 2y ago
Sounds like a labor version of Jevon's Paradox, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox where increases in efficiency cause a resource to be consumed more, not less.
jlarocco 2y ago
That kind of misrepresents the situation because our social and economic systems screw over the employees whose jobs are automated away. Initially there's the same amount of work, but if they don't find something else to do, they won't be able to pay their bills or buy food, and they'll be out on the street. So we end up with crappy, low pay service jobs that only exist so people have some way to scrape out a living. The business owners benefit from automation, the employees lose.
- barbariangrunge 2y ago
  Nobody is hiring armies of workers just so those workers can “scrape out a living.” Companies cut jobs, they rarely create them for charity
imiric 2y ago
Because the gains from increased productivity have been reaped by executives, not workers. You keep working the same hours to make your bosses more money, when you could be working less instead. This income gap has been widening since the 1970s[1,2]. [1]: https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide-to-statistics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide... [2]: https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/ https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
- Aerroon 2y ago
  This cannot be true. Imagine your job is producing chairs. You make 1 chair per day. Now you get a machine that improves your productivity and you can make 4 chairs per day, but your pay doesn't increase, instead the executives pocket all of it! But what about the 3 extra chairs? Somebody somewhere gets chairs that wouldn't have got them if you had been producing 1 chair per day. Wealth is about stuff, not money. If more stuff is produced (that is useful) then people become wealthier. So unless those executives are somehow taking all those extra chairs themselves there must be done other beneficiary from the extra productivity. It's far more likely that regular people have a growing desire for more stuff than the executives using up all those extra products themselves.
  - barbariangrunge 2y ago
    What about advertising?
    - Aerroon 2y ago
      I don't think advertising is what creates a desire for a product. I think that desire exists beforehand and advertising mobilizes it. I didn't know I wanted a smartphone. Ads didn't make me want a smartphone. But when I got a smartphone I knew I wanted one.
  - selcuka 2y ago
    > Now you get a machine that improves your productivity and you can make 4 chairs per day, but your pay doesn't increase You are looking from a single worker's perspective. A more realistic example is 4 workers used to make 4 chairs per day, and now 3 workers can make the same number of chairs. Boss makes more money. No net gain for the remaining 3 workers (and the laid off worker has to find another job, potentially for a lower salary).
pjerem 2y ago
That’s because we use automation to solve problems and create needs we never had. I mean, nowadays we solved pretty any need the average human had 100 years ago. Our leaders are convinced that we must grow and grow, but we basically have everything we need to be a happy species in the long term. What we are doing now is working (here 6 days a week) to solve inexistant problems marketers are creating while going full throttle both in burn-out and in the environmental wall. In the meantime, while we are working hard releasing SaaS softwares, there have never been fewer farmers which, historically, have been the job of pretty any human in the last millennia. If we don’t change this paradigm, we are at risk of dying stupidly from climate induced famine or wars just because we needed the latest smartphone. Don’t get me wrong : I understand how at the end of the day, in the current system, all of this supports our basic needs. But we need to think about another system because we are going to destroy environment and human psyche.

lr4444lr 2y ago

3. Greece's unemployment rate is almost 11%. What a bizarre situation.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
One wonders if increasing the compensation offered for these jobs might result in less vacancies. I mean, I've heard theories (only theories, mind you) that this could have some effect. Seems unlikely, but maybe worth a try?
- SeanAnderson 2y ago
  I don't know a lot about Greek economy. It seems like it could be a scenario where consumers can't afford higher prices. If prices goes up then consumers bail, companies go out of business, unemployment goes down but total available jobs goes down, too. Instead, everyone's grinding their way to the bottom which isn't great, either.
  - Arnt 2y ago
    The Greek economy is highly seasonal. There's tourist season and off season.
- stavros 2y ago
  There are no vacancies. On the contrary, there's a whole slew of 20-somethings willing to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for six months for 1k/mo so they have some money during the winter.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    From TFA: > However, at least the pay is good on Mykonos, which cannot be said for some of the less well-known Greek holiday destinations. > All of this is why hotel-owners in regions like the popular Chalkidiki peninsula in northern Greece are having trouble finding enough workers. As a result, some restaurants and hotels in Greece will open late this summer.

theamk 2y ago

First sentence of the article: > From the construction industry to the tourism sector... those are the jobs which robots cannot currently take. And even for jobs which robots can do (manufacturing), they won't be used if the salaries are so low that humans are cheaper.

squidbeak 2y ago

Automation's in its infancy. What makes you assume you can draw any conclusions about its effects in its maturity from the current economic situation in Greece?

okasaki 2y ago

Much of the improvement in working conditions, general welfare and home ownership came from western elites' fear of communism. As that fear recedes, elites feel more comfortable squeezing us.

CapstanRoller 2y ago
they're not "elite" they just have more government rectangles than us

emporas 2y ago

People not working at all, or working significantly less, is not acceptable by any political system of the western countries. The proof here, is the exponential rate in which debt goes up. That debt is directly funding the anti-automation each political system imposes. In other words, automation has to be stopped, and it's gonna take as much money as it needs. This anti-automation process, created the biggest bubbles in history, equity bubble, real estate bubble, government bond bubble, pharma bubble, cryptocurrency bubble, currency bubble in short TEB(The Everything Bubble). That's gonna end of course, and soon. It has just started yesterday actually with some triple A derivatives blowing up again like in 2007. By the end of the summer, the first bubbles will start popping off. It's gonna be fun. [EDIT] There are more bubbles, I just put some in there. [EDIT] The triple A blowing up is not correct.

exe34 2y ago
if people have too much time on their hands, they start to organise and ask for their fair share.
- emporas 2y ago
  Well, i know a lot about history, political systems when they are at the end of the road, no one really competent can even come close to be a leader. When an incompetent person thinks of a solution to a problem, they choose the worst solution. In addition to that, there is also the possibility, that political systems themselves will be automated, not 100%, but close to 95% or 99%.
RandomLensman 2y ago
What triple A derivatives are blowing up?
- emporas 2y ago
  George Gammon made a video yesterday about it. I don't personally know what derivatives even mean, but i do know in 2007 something like that happened, triple A derivatives of mortgages or something. Even if that's not it, the bubbles will start pop off soon, end of summer or end of the year, and it will take years for the process to complete, 5 years probably. For 5 years, each bubble will pop one by one. My point is, at the end of the process, and only then, serious automation will start to happen, because they will not have the ammo to stop it. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QQ_CcNPXjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QQ_CcNPXjQ

boring-alterego 2y ago

4 or 3 day work weeks are better.

navane 2y ago

The robots aren't paying any taxes. The countries pay for retirements from people's taxes.