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Being laid off and unplanned entrepreneurship
- akskakskaksk 2y agoAs a fan it's strange to see no mention of vidaliaonions.com
- eightturn 2y agoauthor here : ) that came after DudeRanch : )
- senkora 2y agoOh wow. I'd read that post before but didn't make the connection to this one. Well worth a read as well: https://www.deepsouthventures.com/i-sell-onions-on-the-internet/ https://www.deepsouthventures.com/i-sell-onions-on-the-inter...
- eightturn 2y agothank you senkora (author here)
- leetrout 2y ago> I didn’t raise any money for these projects. I funded them with my 9-5 salary. Solo. And the reason for that was simple – why on earth would I vehemently abandon boneheaded micro-managing layoff kings in the 9-5 world only to raise money & adopt a board of boneheaded micro-managing layoff kings in the startup world. If I’m gonna build, I’m gonna have free-rein decision making to pursue any and all ludicrous business models, with no oversight. If I fail, fine. That’s on me. If it works, son-of-a-gun, my job will feel like play. I respect this. It's something I've wrestled with a lot over the past ~year (especially in the last 6 months). You can see my relevant "Ask HN: How would you raise $600k for a boring software co?"[0] in which I shared my musings around this with the community. I'm currently contracting because I have to pay some unexpected medical bills but I am hopeful I will explore solopreneurship more this year (I'd much rather not go it alone tho, as stated in the thread). I'm very lucky to have had multiple interactions with folks in that thread as well as having contacts that have raised funds and sold businesses... the advice is a resounding "not really doable" outside of a friends & family fundraise. All of this to say, I admire Peter (have read his writings previously) and I share the same feelings quoted above although I am still willing to entertain outside investors (and all that comes with that) for the chance to have agency in executing a software business with less "lose my house" risk. For the same reason I would also take a leadership position at a startup. I've seen the effects of bad management and lack of empathy first hand and I know I could make a difference and have a positive impact on the internal culture of software development shops... But I don't get many bites when I go fishing for that. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37346497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37346497
- eightturn 2y agoappreciate that, leetrout (Peter here)
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- martin_drapeau 2y agoYour thread is 9 months old. Do you have a product and a bit of traction? I was in a similar place to you back in 2019. Via side gigs I built a product that served a niche. Eventually, raised 180k with TinySeed (specialized in boostrapping B2B SaaS). Best move ever. Gave me and my cofounder a runway to find product market fit. We're now 8 full time at Activity Messenger and doubling year over year. Have a listen to the podcast Startups for the rest of us. All about bootstrapping. Get inspired and start building.
- leetrout 2y ago> Do you have a product and a bit of traction? No. I spent some of my money while I was employed on contractors but it didn't work out. I am back on my own as of April 1 however I had a medical issue that lasted ~5 weeks with a few bills to go along with it so I am currently contracting to make money to pay those. The unexpected expenses were ~20% of my runway so I didn't feel comfortable just trying to absorb the cost. I also missed out on a conference I intended to attend. > raised 180k with TinySeed That is awesome - did you invest all of it in hiring? > 8 full time at Activity Messenger and doubling year over year Very impressive! Congrats. Turns out we're in a similar space (as are several dozen other companies, as I am sure you are aware). JackRabbit is one of my customer's most common platforms.
- throwaway42668 2y agoFWIW… look at the portfolio pages of lots of VCs. They’re absolutely filthy with boring companies with boring products that obviously have absolutely no prayer whatsoever of being a “venture scale” business. Despite that fact, they managed to get multiple investors to put in Millions in capital. How? They bullshitted the right sounding bullshit to a specific audience who absolutely laps up particular flavors of bullshit. Sometimes the flavor changes (e.g. DevOps, enterprise SaaS, crypto, AI), but they’re always hungry. You of course don’t have to raise money if you don’t want to, but I’m sure you could do it too for damn near any idea you come up with as long as you also figure out how to relieve yourself of any sense of self-respect and prostrate yourself in front of the altar of VC buzzworthiness and tomes of fortune cookie wisdom.
- nudpiedo 2y agothis is highly dated... 2004-2008, the opportunities were others than today's
- eatonphil 2y ago> highly dated Article is published: > June, 2024 I don't understand what you mean.
- rob 2y agoMost of the stuff in the article happened between ~2003-2010 at first glance, which is what he means probably (even though it was published in 2024.)
- eightturn 2y ago(author here) just published this story today, correct.., been writing it for months, as I've been forgetting all the weird steps I took to get here..
- kaashif 2y agoThe initial events described in the article happened around 20 years ago.
- darkstar_16 2y agoThe stories presented are from an earlier era but maybe still relevant.
- the_real_cher 2y agobut the story took place in the early 2000s.
- verzali 2y agoThe opportunities are different, but the attitude of keeping your eyes open to opportunities and figuring out what works is still true.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y agoInteresting and strangely uplifting story! Gotta admire the hustle and will to be independent.
- eightturn 2y agothank you HarHar (author here)
- amunozo 2y agoReally inspiring read. I've been thinking about doing something similar but I always give up early and do not believe in it.
- eightturn 2y agoreally appreciate that amunozo (author here)
- mooreds 2y agoView page source is, as was mentioned in the article, magical. The fact that by publishing something online you make it available for everyone else to learn from is astonishing. It used to be knowledge was locked up in books and putting them in libraries for free access was revolutionary, but libraries don't compare to the knowledge transfer benefits of view source in terms of cost and ease. (Obv libraries have a wider base of knowledge to distribute.) Even today, with all the obfuscation and minification, devtools offers a lot of the same benefits as "view source" did.
- eightturn 2y ago(author here)... I honestly was scared of it first, as I thought if I edited the code, I'd accidentally change/update the other persons website...
- arp242 2y agoFew years back I ordered something from the internet. I forgot what exactly went wrong, but some JS nonsense prevented me from doing what I wanted to do and I no choice but to use this website. So I opened the inspector to remove that event handler or whatnot. My girlfriend was sitting next to me. "What are you doing?", "Oh, just need to edit this so it allows me to continue." The look on her face was priceless. "You-you c-can do that?! You're allowed to just do that?!" To be fair, I can understand her apprehension as I was wearing a balaclava and black gloves.
- 6510 2y agoAh yes, how our cozy internet of sharing was infiltrated and ultimately ruined by people looking to simply earn a living. Bigger players took down smaller ones (ruining things further) until we eventually stopped making websites for them. Earning money was replaced by fiat-like pyramid schemes. The remaining scrap was quickly "copied" into LLM's and soon I'm sure there will be all knowing humanoid robots walking around. What comes after that?
- myth_drannon 2y agoThe old and trusted face-to-face human interaction.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y agoWe take up arms against a sea of robots. And, by opposing, end them.
- giarc 2y agoWere there other sites between AppalachianTrail.com and DudeRanch.com? Seems like a big jump from $3k to $17k, for something that, in my opinion, doesn't seem like a sure winner worth 5x the first one.
- eightturn 2y agoI sold AT for $30k, and primarily used the proceeds from that to acquire DR.. I was still working 9-5 then also, so I was prepared to spend upwards of $50k to acquire DR (as that industry seemed like a good fit for me) (author here, fyi)
- darkstar_16 2y agoThat is an inspiring read. I almost went down this path when I got laid off last. I still somewhat regret taking up a corporate job back then instead of focusing on something else. But then, I probably wasn't ready. Thanks for writing this Peter.
- eightturn 2y agothank you darkstar (peter here)
- jebarker 2y agoThe creativity displayed in spotting the opportunities is really impressive.
- dsco 2y agoWhat a beautiful piece of writing, which hits close to home for me, as I've always kind of managed side projects and my full-time jobs during office hours.
- eightturn 2y agoreally appreciate that dsco (author here)
- ensemblehq 2y agoAppreciate the post. Was in a similar situation myself - always wanted to be an "entrepreneur" but ultimately, needing to survive to feed the family is what kickstarted it all. I really appreciated how, even though you didn't have a technical background, you found a path that works for you and even more so, focusing on what you CAN do vs what you CAN'T do. And sometimes, you do get hosed on a deal at the start before you establish trust and credibility and then eventually learning your way around the trade.
- dkobia 2y agoI've often heard the narrative from hiring managers over the years that a prospect who's been laid off probably doesn't make a good hire, especially if they've been laid off multiple times. In this wonderfully written and inspiring piece, perhaps we should consider that the real issue isn't the individual's capability but rather that their potential has been misdirected or they haven't been in environments that recognize and cultivate their unique skills.
- atrettel 2y agoYour post reminded me of some thoughts I've had about a similar topic over the last few years. I'm a scientist, and I've often thought about how the work I and others would do would be different in different funding environments. That's the same idea of people's "potential [being] misdirected" that you are talking about. People often chase the newest shiny things and follow the money for both hiring and funding, but that isn't always good for both the people themselves and for innovation as a whole. We need to make it possible for people to develop their talents and skills, whatever they are and even if they don't match the current needs or desires of the environment, so they we have experts and experienced folks when the time comes for those innovations and technologies. It's the same idea as diversification in investing, with more agility and resilience gained from a diversity of skills and experience. I hope more funding managers and hiring managers realize the value of fostering people's potentials rather than focusing myopically on supposed current needs.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y agoThis makes me think about all the psych grads, that went to school, wanting to help people, but are now writing dark patterns. But they are being paid a lot more than they would get, helping people.
- atrettel 2y agoThat's a great example of this kind of problem. People are pragmatic and take the jobs that are available, even if that it's not what they originally planned for or what would be more helpful. I've done the same myself a few times.
- sph 2y agoI love the name 'unplanned entrepreneurship'. After a year of not being able to find decent work, I decided I might as well build something of mine, and slowly grow it to profitability. Which I did, and it's still not profitable, so I have to try the job market lottery again—which has killed a lot of motivation and momentum, but I'm back at it for the long haul now. As you are an expert in SEO, and I'm building a SEO-adjacent product, I would love to pick your brain. Email in the profile.
- eightturn 2y agothank you sph... it took me a while to cobble together a title that made sense.. and I'm far from an seo expert.. I learned the basics and sortof winged it from there.. ping me on twitter.. I hang out there usually..
- SebFender 2y agoSometimes we're just not built for the classic corporate environment. Let's not blame anyone and just admit that for many "... maybe it's just not for me." I find too many people blame themselves or others instead of just changing angles in life. This is a perfect example.
- llmblockchain 2y agoI can relate to this, though I came into it already knowing how to do the coding part. I had no idea how to do the rest of it. My entire career was spent building valuable software for companies to generate large profits only for me to be laid off (and fired, once). After the firing I was quite angry and probably a bit arrogant. I went on a bit of a rage.. "I built the most successful product there, I can do it on my own." So that's what I did and I haven't worked for anyone else since (on 8 years now).
- Fin_Code 2y agoI'm right at your starting point. Can basically build anything but committing to an idea is the sticking point. What product would you want to start with today?
- codazoda 2y agoReach out if you want to start a conversation. I'm thinking maybe a Slack for people at this stage. My email address is in my profile.
- brink 2y agoSent an email.
- shepherdjerred 2y agoWhat would make it different from other messaging platforms?
- Fripplebubby 2y agoI think they mean, "I'm thinking of creating an instance of Slack that people can join and chat who are in this stage of their journey", not that their idea for a new company is like Slack.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
- swayvil 2y agoI for one would appreciate a list of "software products that the world needs and if you made this then you could make some money". (Not a video game)
- sebastiansm 2y agoI need a software that do my work while I play guitar.
- marginalia_nu 2y agoBuild what you feel the world needs, instead of what you think other people think the world needs. It's much harder to guess what the average person will want than what you want. The world is big, so odds are other people will feel the same. It may or may not end up being a niche product, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y agoFor me, I found out that us “olds” are not exactly loved (actively hated, more like), and gave up looking for work, after being laid off from one of the top imaging corporations in the world. Pissed me off, something fierce, being treated that way (especially as I figured out it was being supported from the C-Suite). However, I have since realized that it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me. I enjoy writing software. So much, that I will do it for free. When no one’s paying me, I get to do it the way that I want to do it. No scrum standup humiliation sessions, no deliberately writing terrible software, so terrible programmers can understand it, no being told how lucky I am, to be “allowed” to work.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y agoI quit a company that was showing all the signs of trying to get rid of its senior developers so a couple of us jumped ship before the inevitable layoff. I went straight into another place that the recruiter said "preferred to hire more seasoned engineers." In my 5 years there I only remember two engineers that were under 30. Median age probably hovered around 50. There are outfits that realize that you get better with experience and want to capitalize on that. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far between.
- jhawleypeters 2y agoAssuming the pool of engineers is growing exponentially, I’d expect a very small population of seasoned engineers.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y agoI think that's why we got the two younger ones. At that time, they couldn't find enough experienced engineers to hire, so they tried two that were fresh out of school. They were pretty bright, but left after about 3 years each.
- wumbo 2y agooh but think of all the “refactoring” you’re missing out on. We have a DevRel engineer specifically working to get technical debt tickets into sprints. So you get to refactor! Oh gee!
- pmarreck 2y agoThe head of Gupta Media (friend of mine) started his solo journey with a layoff. It really supports the perception of seeing a door closing just meaning you need to change direction and not to take it personally.
- renegade-otter 2y agoI was putting off starting my SaaS idea for years (has to do with assigning code reviewers based on specific file patterns and notifying them on Slack) but the idea was much more marketable 10 years ago when I first had it. GitHub did not even have the concept of CODEOWNERS back then. After getting laid off, I decided to roll the dice instead of looking for another work-for-hire. Yeah, it's too late, but I needed this just to get excited about technology again. I was seriously jaded from debugging the microservices spaghetti at every frigging job, trying to make a pile out of water and not actually building anything. I torches through my savings, and no regrets. I am in my 40s, and the time to take a chance is running out. The point is, there is such a thing as "right place, right time". The idea and the execution have to be well-timed. It might be too early, or it might be too late (as it was for me). Take The Globe, for example - the Facebook before Facebook. They failed because a) there were no phones b) not enough people online to get the network effect. Similarly, good luck getting your "crypto" getting traction at this point. If you have an idea, and you think the time is right - take the chance. Not knowing what will happen is part of the fun. Don't look at it as taking risk, look at it as rowing through a river and without knowing where the river goes. If you don't row, you will never find out what's around the bend.
- marginalia_nu 2y ago> If you have an idea, and you think the time is right - take the chance. Not knowing what will happen is part of the fun. Don't look at it as taking risk, look at it as rowing through a river and without knowing where the river goes. If you don't row, you will never find out what's around the bend. I think you kinda need to re-evaluate your relationship with uncertainty when doing something like this. As a wagie, unexpected news is nearly universally bad news (layoffs, corporate mergers), whereas the status quo is neutral-good. When you're starting up a business, unexpected news can be good (new customer, new investor), but the status quo is neutral-bad (slowly running out of momentum and funds).
- sph 2y ago> Take The Globe, for example - the Facebook before Facebook. They failed "The company's IPO made history when it posted the largest first day gain of any IPO with a 606% increase in price.[3] Early in his tenure, Paternot became known in popular media as "the CEO in the plastic pants" after he was filmed in a nightclub saying 'Got the girl. Got the money. Now I'm ready to live a disgusting, frivolous life.'" Then they lost everything in the dot-com bust, but is this really failing? They had an idea and probably made life-changing money. theGlobe failed, the people behind it have not. They unlocked the next tier of freedom where they can work on anything they fancy and drive a McLaren to work. I hope to fail like them. The right time is defeatist nonsense. It's like the stock market: you can't time it, so just enter and stick with it. Hindsight is a useless tool to entrepreneurship.
- johnwheeler 2y agoI run a chatroom for solopreneurs in case anyone is interested codingbutclueless.com
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y agoDuring the interview at the last place I worked, the owner described starting the company (20+ years earlier) because he got tired of being laid off. Figured that the risk of his new venture failing was probably on par with getting a job and being laid off again, so why not go for it? Can't really argue with that :-)
- Jun8 2y agoPeter, if you read this comment I suggest that you start writing a book immediately, if one's not in the works: your simple but thoughtful writing style is awesome and makes the deep insights you provide even more delightful. I, for one, plunk down money to read 200 pages of this stuff interested with anecdotes from personal life. What are the insights I gained from this particular piece: * self depreciation is funny if done in earnest * note that the OP had a huge handicap (not knowing to code and ignorant of web technologies) but he was not clueless: he had deep knowledge (at least deeper than most site operators) about the ad business and how to monetize * building up from the above, he innovated in an area what he knew, i.e. ads. He didn't try to jump into the idea de jour. Too many first time entrepreneurs miss this point. * he used simple tools and approaches(e.g. Yellow Pages, source view) but used them effectively. Didn't try to go after shiny tools, e.g. get on a bootcamp to learn web frontend development Overall vibe (don't know if it's a persona or the real thing, judging from the wackiness of his ideas I'm guessing the latter) from his writings is a person who you'd want to grab coffee (or beer) and just hang out with.
- eightturn 2y agothanks Jun8... writing these small essays is taxing (but rewarding) - I can't imagine what it's like to write a book (unlikely). If I ever do, it'll be similar to how Derek Sivers writes (short chapters)... no persona here, though.. just someone who's been laid off a lot, and channels William Faulkner style of writing..and also, hard to write a book when I've got onions to ship!! : ) (peter here)
- ilamont 2y agoHad an epiphany like this after an earlier startup project failed, which my cofounder and I had tried to do following the formulaic approaches advocated by various accelerators, investors, and experts (often people with zero experience running a startup, but had been involved as angels after BigCo stock options vested, and then got into mentoring local accelerators). I hated the startup theater, pitching, networking, and accelerator applications including YC and TechStars and MassChallenge. My cofounder flaked. I wound down business #1, returned most of the investor capital, and then started out on #2, determined to do things completely differently. For #2, I had 3 criteria: 1) Prototype on my own, without an engineer 2) Don't just talk lean, do lean 3) The product must generate revenue from day 1 While I am not an engineer, I had strong enough digital skills to set up websites and leverage other tools to prototype. Month 1 was building the prototype, month 2 was getting it out to the marketplace and actually getting some early sales ... and then plowing that money back into the business to improve the product. 10+ years later, the business brings in a respectable middle class income, has helped put my kids through college, and, as TFA articulated, lets me "pursue any and all ludicrous business models, with no oversight." Like a lot of people who bootstrap, I had to consult as well (still do, mainly as a hedge against platform risk). I am eternally grateful to my spouse who not only has an income to help support the family, but also good health insurance (more on this below, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40707068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40707068).
- grecy 2y ago> but also good health insurance. I'm always amazed how blatantly clear it is that having health insurance tied to employment specifically discourages this kind of entrepreneurship, and the ability to "strike out on your own". Literally handcuffs keeping people at their jobs.
- matwood 2y agoYep. I’ve been saying for awhile now that universal healthcare would likely lead to one of the biggest small business booms ever. Not only does it help people strike out on their own, but makes easier/cheaper for them to hire.
- hbn 2y agoLike many things with the internet, it seems like if you got in at the ground floor you could do something like this. Now everything on the internet is cordoned off in centralized spaces, and there's a million businesses and random guys trying to figure out any and every possible angle to monetize overlooked markets. No way I can convince businesses to pay me for ads when they can be paying Facebook or YouTube who own practically every eyeball on the internet.
- bornfreddy 2y agoThe frontier is always moving. You don't see people looking for gold in California anymore.
- lassoiat 2y agoYou also can't assume you would strike gold just because you have a pan and the right timing. I know a guy that had podcast in 2009 or so. He had great timing but the problem is his podcast completely sucked and he has nothing interesting to say in general. Shifting things forward or backward in time would not have solved anything.
- sph 2y agoYou certainly won't strike gold by saying "there is no gold to be found here" and sitting on your bottom. Two massive parts of success in entrepreneurship are luck and doing something others didn't want to do, or didn't think was worth it. Both require showing up. Having a world-changing idea is an overrated and oversold approach. Some people make billions selling underwear or bottled soda. You can make millions out of selling literally anything.
- glitchc 2y agoI'm still stuck on how someone makes it through a history degree without enjoying reading.
- eightturn 2y agowhen my senior year rolled around, I still didn't know what my major was going to be. I visited a guidance counselor, and she viewed all the classes I had inadvertently taken, and I'd fulfilled 3/4 of a History degree (a Southern History degree, no less - they offer it at my alma, Ole Miss). So I just went with that and read a few more William Faulkner novels : )
- yardie 2y agoI went from an EE major to Aerospace. Realized I wasn't going to make it. At the same time the market for aerospace graduates was collapsing. But I did have enough math and programming credits to graduate with a CS degree. And dumped those aerospace credits into an Astronomy minor. Sometimes the degree picks you.
- mettamage 2y agoFunny how this goes in the US. Sounds like a better system, curriculum-wise. In Europe, in many cases, one would need to fully start over.
- thr0w 2y ago> I can’t trust them anymore; I gotta figure out a way to generate revenue myself; from my own business; that I control. Online preferably. This was it for me. Pouring your whole self into your work, only to be laid off, fired, or skipped for promotion is soul shattering. $400k ARR solo. I'll never work for anyone again, I'll never feel compelled to be a yes man again, I'll never fake a smile for a drooling idiot of a C*O again.
- deadbabe 2y agoNever say never.
- senordevnyc 2y agoFor real. I made $400k+ multiple years working for myself in a business that was a mix of product and services. But then divorce, business changes, and my own values shifting pushed me to get a tech job where I made even more, working less, with less stress. It was a great move, though I had to let go of some of my ego to do it. That said, after about five years of that, I'm ready to get back to working for myself.
- kirso 2y agoThis just shows that life is really transient. Life circumstances change, so we probably shouldn't be dogmatic. Frankly 90% of people probably are not cut out to be entrepreneurs because it requires certain qualities.
- chaostheory 2y agoGoing on a slight tangent with unplanned entrepreneurship, the Korean PC cafes had their roots in their owners being laid off from their corporate jobs.
- Simon_ORourke 2y agoI tried going solo out in Berlin after a few years working for a couple of the biggest douchebags you could imagine. Same idea - I didn't like having to answer to a douchebag every day, and didn't worry myself about getting FAANG money, so I tried a B2B start-up that tried to automate some compliance issues that most companies out in Germany face. Didn't get the product market fit right, but learned enough to get me in front of a FAANG-adjacent company who had an opening and that was that.
- the_af 2y agoI hate this kind of article. A weird mix of inspirational hogwash ("here's how I succeeded and you can do this too!") with some pretty crappy tactics, like domain squatting, crap ads business with no value added, and lying to customers to not let them know they could have cut the middleman. Basically nothing this guy is explaining ads any value. He had little to no expert knowledge, he just got lucky with some low hanging fruit (mostly because his customers were even more clueless than he was). No doubt he's making money now and is "his own boss" now, but nothing he did to get there seems inspirational or worth copying.
- jnord 2y agoThis line in the article sums up beautifully the desire for being an entrepreneur: "A path to avoid someone else’s bonehead business decision which kneecaps a company and executes my career."