14 ms·

Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

132 points by julienreszka 2y ago

Just let me drive. I don't need fancy screens.

frankjr 2y ago
Right? I would be perfectly content with a feature set from 30 years ago.
- ted_bunny 2y ago
  I wonder if people know exactly how much they're psying for each little gizmo that rolls down their windows, adds a PIN to their door, etc. I bet you could cut about 25% of the price off by removing goofy crap you don't need.
  - doix 2y ago
    > I bet you could cut about 25% of the price off by removing goofy crap you don't need. Most of those things are low cost, high margin extras. Removing them wouldn't really decrease the cost of the car for the manufacturer. A lot of the time, if you don't pay for the extra's, they are included in the car anyway because it's not worth the effort of customizing the build. They are just disabled in software.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
      This is something that people without a manufacturing background often don't appreciate. Modern production lines are so efficient that it's frequently more cost effective to build all units of a product with the same hardware but disable some features in software. I first came across this 20+ years ago working for an office equipment manufacturer. We had to add code for the service people to enable a feature in the machine that was already present (and pretty expensive to build), but not turned on until the customer paid for it. I remember at the time asking if it wouldn't piss customers off to know that they were paying for something that was already installed, but it didn't seem to faze the Marketing people in the least. Then again, the buyer was someone in a corporate office who would probably never actually see the machine anyway.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        Yeah, this kind of thing will really piss off individual consumers, but corporate buyers have an entirely different mindset. Corporate customers frequently lease stuff anyway, rather than buying it, because of the way that this affects taxation.
    - ted_bunny 2y ago
      I meant, if a modern line of cars were made without the bells and whistles in the first place.
bell-cot 2y ago
The really difficult and expensive part is manufacturing decent cars, at scale. The profit margins on that part generally suck - so Capitalism says "hahaha...NO". The pretty-easy-and-cheap part is adding glitzy screens to cars. Doing that gets most people all excited...and willing to shell out far more money. In an extremely well-run socialist country, there'd probably be good, low-tech electric cars.
- jerf 2y ago
  The car industry has an unusual profit curve. They have huge, huge fixed costs. It's not just the factory, it's the testing, compliance, marketing, etc. However, the price you pay for a car is substantially more than the marginal cost of producing it. So that industry is a famine-or-feast industry. Either they are losing money in mind-boggling quantities, or they are making money in mind-boggling quantities. There is not a lot of in between. Unfortunately, the connection to the question the original poster asked is that they basically can't risk not selling a car because it doesn't have some hot feature that most of the market wants, so you won't see a screen-free car made today. Putting $100 of hardware in to seal the deal is a no-brainer in their profit model. (Though they will trim every penny on it, as they do everything else; it may seem like a contradiction but if you think about it enough it'll make sense. Consider the term "bullet-point feature" in our industry.) Until the market as a whole screams for it, it won't exist.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    >So that industry is a famine-or-feast industry. Either they are losing money in mind-boggling quantities, or they are making money in mind-boggling quantities. There is not a lot of in between. Search profit margins for Toyota/Ford/Volkswagen/Mercedes/BMW/Honda/etc All are in the 5% to 10% range, which is objectively a middle of the road profit margin. Mind boggling is what tech/oil/pharma/finance does, at 20%, 30%, even 40%+ profit margins. Which is why they are at the top of market cap rankings. https://companiesmarketcap.com/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/
    - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
muzani 2y ago
Ora, BYD, Neta. Maybe Chinese cars aren't popular there?
- 2rsf 2y ago
  Are they low-tech? at least BYD presents all the known tech, bells and whistles for a lower price.
  - muzani 2y ago
    What's the definition of low tech? Golf carts? Cars without a screen seem about as rare as phones without a camera.
- twunde 2y ago
  If the OP is in the US, Chinese cars are unavailable since they don't meet US standards. Additionally, there is a level of protectionism that will try to prevent them from being introduced in the US.
  - brianbreslin 2y ago
    There are also 100% tariffs on Chinese cars in the US. so doubling the price. Chinese EV manufacturers will likely set up final assembly plants in Mexico and ship them 90% finished, and then they will be able to circumvent that tariff. That's how Chinese steel manufacturers get into the US market.
  - r0ckarong 2y ago
    They're unavailable for the same reason they're expensive here in Germany. Government protecting the local automobile industries.
- glintik 2y ago
  They are nor low tech, not a real budget cars.
ungreased0675 2y ago
I also wonder this. Electric cars tend to be larger heavy luxury vehicles, the opposite of what we need more of. Where are the small efficient commuter vehicles?
- Jeremy1026 2y ago
  You have larger margins on larger luxury vehicles. Manufacturers are getting their R&D money back by selling these cars first before they trickle down to lower cost (and lower margin) econoboxes.
- some_random 2y ago
  The tech is still immature and can't compete with similarly priced vehicles except at the top end of the market. Tesla is the only seems to be getting the scale required to push the price down.
- brokenmachine 2y ago
  Talking about ICE vehicles, just about EVERY new car seems to be a larger heavy luxury vehicle. Maybe it's just where I'm living? I thought it was because they increased the efficiency requirements for standard wheelbase vehicles. Intended effect: manufacturers make more efficient vehicles. Actual effect: manufacturers make gigantic, less efficient, more expensive vehicles.
twoquestions 2y ago
I wonder the same, there's a bunch of budget electric bikes out there, I'd love something small that I can get around in the winter with!
- bluGill 2y ago
  > I'd love something small that I can get around in the winter with! Try a coat. If you look around you discover that cycling cities tend to be places with harsh winters. While cycling dies off in winter, there are some die-hards go year round and they will report what you need if you ask them.
  - david-gpu 2y ago
    Yeah, I live in Toronto and cycle year round. Simply wear winter clothes, like you would do if you went out for a walk.
glintik 2y ago
That’s a good catch. I also wondered because there are vast amount of people want just personal vehicle to move from A to B.
calrain 2y ago
Wouldn't electric car conversions count as low tech? Like those VW or 2CV conversions.
jitl 2y ago
The big reason screens matter for electric cars is planning long range trips with stops at a battery charge location. Without the map/screen in-car you can’t integrate battery level with routing. Maybe you’re fine doing this manually, but range anxiety is the big reason consumers who can afford electric don’t buy electric, so it seems self defeating to remove features that help with that. The screens and stuff aren’t that much extra, often it helps save more on tooling/logistics for plastic buttons and dials. Additionally, CarPlay/Android Auto is a hard requirement for me and many other consumers these days. I wouldn’t consider a car - gas or electric - without it. I opted for a Mercedes gas car in part because there was no overall good electric car with wireless CarPlay in my price range.
- jacknews 2y ago
  That's what your phone or tablet is for. No need for all that custom UI tech in the car, just provide a documented API and open-source app you can run on your phone or even dedicate a tablet for it. Proprietary screens and their supporting computers will be obsolete quickly, will break easily and be exorbitantly expensive to fix/replace, and of course there's a good chance they will also surveil everything you do, mostly for the benefit of the manufacturer. Just say no to smart appliances, especially something as central as your personal transport.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    I have no confidence that auto/carplay of today will work with whatever phone I have in 12 years. Car makers want to ship their cars and forget about them. They hate warranty work. Tesla does software updates but the others don't want to (they do but only when they must or if they can charge for them - the maps on my 12 year old car are way out of date because like most car buyers I won't pay to update them). I'm not even sure that phones in 12 years will have communications (usb, bluetooth, wifi) compatible with the infotainment system in today's new cars. I am sure I will not be using today's phone as 5g towers will be shutting down.
    - jacknews 2y ago
erellsworth 2y ago
Because marketing departments like to have lots of features to advertise. There's a lot of money in selling people things they don't need or even want.
gonzo41 2y ago
I totally agree, I really want a Caterham 7 with 4 electric hub motors and the battery where the engine used to go. It seems like it should be actually pretty cheap to build. I do think the reason we havn't seen this class yet is that EV's are yuppie cars. They are sold at a premium for people who think this is the thing that will solve CC. When really taking busses, even petrol ones would probably do more.
brabel 2y ago
The Nissan Leaf has been available for many years now , and it is a very basic car (not sure you would qualify it as low tech): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf Still much more expensive than the equivalent cars with a combustion engine though.
edent 2y ago
Citroën Ami is about as low tech as you can get. If you want something more car-shaped, the Renault Zoe has very few tech feature. Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! No radar, lane assist, carplay or anything like that. Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise control, she wants lane assist, he wants automatic parking. Creating a dozen different SKUs for all those things is complicated. Getting regulatory approval for every variation is expensive. So most manufacturers sell only a few variations of their models.
- eloisant 2y ago
  Do you mean Citroen Ami?
  - edent 2y ago
    Thanks. Corrected.
- glintik 2y ago
  The downside of Zoe is Renault. For its tech price should be much less.
- danybittel 2y ago
  Wouldn't it be fun if electric cars were the same way as PC's. Plug and play the parts you want, switch motor / battery.. choose a new chassis as you wish. And LED lights of course.
  - tnel77 2y ago
    Man I can dream! That sounds incredible.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    They kind of are. But at manufacturer level. Everyone now has like 3-4 chassis options and they build cars on top of that.
baali 2y ago
MG Motors in India introduced Comet: https://www.mgmotor.co.in/vehicles/comet-ev-electric-car-in-india https://www.mgmotor.co.in/vehicles/comet-ev-electric-car-in-... It still has a big screen though.
karaterobot 2y ago
I hate touch screens too. And I hate when my car yells at me. My view is, until they release a car where self-driving actually works, there's no basis for my car telling me—30 years of driving in the city, zero accidents—how to drive. But, there's a bound to how low tech a car can be, especially for companies who are looking ahead to increasingly prescriptive safety regulations in the future. Cars sold in the U.S. need a lot of sensors, computers, and mechanisms to take control of the vehicle away from you when it thinks it's necessary. It's just the law. The idea of a simple box with four wheels and some number of motors is pretty much not a viable option, legally speaking.
pen2l 2y ago
Fancy screens are essentially low-tech now though, they've been commodified, Apple and Google will hook up car companies with that and it's not gonna cost them much. Bespoke buttons with soft touch is what is exotic.
r0ckarong 2y ago
Because everybody wants to be Apple.
Simulacra 2y ago
The Arcimoto seems like what you're looking for.
- rapjr9 2y ago
  Looks like Arcimoto is gone, Wikipedia says their web site disappeared in March 2024 and they defaulted on several obligations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcimoto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcimoto Maybe it will live on if someone buys the IP.
  - Simulacra 2y ago
    Ah man. Thank you, I didn't realize. I got to ride around in one at a car show and thought it be a nice little community vehicle.
SkyPuncher 2y ago
Because “low tech” doesn’t mean cheap. The tech components of cars makes up a small fraction of the cost, but represents significant value.
- julienreszka 2y ago
  The aspect that I personally would enjoy is privacy and low maintenance + easy fixes. I can afford expensive low tech.
mushufasa 2y ago
So the unit economics of electric cars are quite different from gas cars (ICE = internal combustion). Electric car companies don't make money on low cost cars -- and neither can ICE cars! Basic ICE cars are essentially sold at cost, sometimes as loss leaders, because the manufacturers make a long-tail of money supplying parts and maintenance for the cars over their lifetime; for 10-20 years they now have a (variable) recurring revenue stream. So a lot of automakers' incentives are to get as large of a fleet as possible. Electric cars inherently have much less of a maintenance burden because there are way fewer moving parts in a motor versus an engine. For example, there's no oil changes ever 3k miles or timing belts to replace ever 30k miles. That means, for electric car companies, business model options are a) introduce SaaS subscriptions for electronic features (a - la Tesla Autopilot premium, supercharger network subscriptions) b) introduce unnecessary complexity to increase maintenance revenue (gullwing doors) c) sell at a profit margin off the factory. Can have higher margins and higher total profit for luxury cars versus basic cars And Tesla's recent push towards robotaxis of their existing fleet would be a totally killer disruption of the unit economics by generating recurring revenue off their fleet. So all the incentives for electric cars point towards high tech luxury, not basic eco-cars. There may be an exception to the rule in some countries, and those may be related to government subsidies.
- janice1999 2y ago
  > a) introduce SaaS subscriptions for electronic feature All the manufacturing are talking about is the need for the 'vehicle as a platform' to sell subscriptions, services and driver data. I've seen so many PowerPoints about this, it's nauseating.
- bluGill 2y ago
  > Electric cars inherently have much less of a maintenance burden because there are way fewer moving parts in a motor versus an engine. A modern ICE outlasts the rest of the car. You might replace the alternator or water pump, but those are made by third parties not the OEM. You will replace the oil, but again, the OEM doesn't make that. The dealers make a lot of money on after sales, but (except Tesla) those are independent third parties. The manufacture doesn't get much after sales. OEM parts do sell for more than third party. And so there is money in OEM parts, but after 5 years most people are buying replacement parts from the third party (the OEM doesn't make those parts - they are buying from a third party and putting a markup on them). Sometimes people will buy OEM parts instead of a third party as OEM tends to give much higher quality vs random third party.
tjansen 2y ago
Not sure about other regions, but in the EU, low tech cars are not allowed. Required safety systems include emergency breaking, emergency lane-keeping, intelligent speed assistance (car must use cameras or GPS to determine current speed limit), driver attention warning systems and many more. That fancy screen is really not a cost factor. These days you can buy after-market screens with Car Play and Android auto support for 100 EURs or less. But all the safety systems needs lots of sensors, and also the ability to auto-brake and auto-steer in emergency situations. https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/new-vehicle-safety-systems.html https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/...
- Kuinox 2y ago
  It's wrong, we have the Twizy, the Ami and the Zoe in France. The most technological advanced thing in the Zoe is the Bluetooth to play music.
  - tjansen 2y ago
    I guess that's why the Zoe has been discontinued: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe Twizy and Ami are not regular passenger vehicles. I am sure there are less requirements for them.
    - Kuinox 2y ago
      Zoe is very popular in France and is being discontinued because it's replaced by the new Alpine A290, that was announced 2 hours ago. Edit: Correction, it's the most popular electric car un Europe. > by the end of 2020, the Zoe ranked as the all-time best selling plug-in car in Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe#Sales_and_markets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe#Sales_and_markets
      - tjansen 2y ago
        I believe the Zoe's successor is the Renault 5 e (the A290 seems to be a performance version of the 5e). The Renault 5 has advanced ADAS, since it's required for all new cars, and is, according to Renault, "packed with electrical and digital technology": https://media.renault.com/renault-5-e-tech-electric-the-electric-renaulutionary-pop-icon/ https://media.renault.com/renault-5-e-tech-electric-the-elec...
yazantapuz 2y ago
In Argentina we have a local manufacturer producing an electricar car named Tito: https://movilidad.coradir.com.ar/tito/ https://movilidad.coradir.com.ar/tito/
isawczuk 2y ago
This is exact same topic I was wondering. Frame + electric motor + battery + gamepad + cpu. From my research, it's boils down to: 1. Car is still a wealth marker. Not enough people think about it just as a means of transpiration. If they do they mostly use public transport or uber/escooters. 2. Car frame - you need to meet security standards, it cost a lot 3. Battery - current technology is expensive 4. Car lobby - especially in Europe, there are large tariffs to bring EV cars from Asia.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  > Car is still a wealth marker. Definitely not in the US.
  - faeranne 2y ago
    Oh it definitely is, it's just also a requirement for reasonable living in most of the US too. It's not a good combo.
- sebnukem2 2y ago
  The bicycle is definitively the best mean of _transpiration_.
mobilio 2y ago
Dacia Spring is low tech electric car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid#Dacia_Spring_Electric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid#Dacia_Spring_Elec...
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
diwank 2y ago
The Pagani Utopia is fairly new (launched September 2022) and is completely bereft of screens and gizmos. A complete work of art costing a mere $2.5 million
- speedgoose 2y ago
  And it’s not an EV.
willcipriano 2y ago
Regulatory capture made it illegal to not add "safety features" that Detroit has the patents on/other types of manufacturing exclusivity (for example certified glass). Then the tariffs that prevent any meaningful foreign competition. The rest is all the automakers run by the same consultanting firm and they don't really compete all that hard with eachother anymore.
nottorp 2y ago
Because there are some early adopters left with more money than sense. And the subsidies are fading but aren't gone for good. And because everyone's copying Tesla's unusable interface for some unknown reason. I doubt Musk would recognize a rotating physical a/c control if it fell off a Falcon and hit him on the head.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  As crappy and annoying Tesla's UI can be, just keep in mind Tesla's software capability is 10x better than any other auto company (or more correctly their OEMs) were capable of.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Oh yeah, but what does that help with when you can't change your a/c to recirculate and back without stopping the car? Or when you simply can't ... figure ... out ... the "smart" turn stalk?
    - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
      I'm certainly not going to defend minimalism-to-the-extreme design that gave us the ribbon in macbooks, removed the stalk/buttons in cars, or other movements that pretend that palpable controls using one of our fundamental senses (touch) are superfluous. They're from the same "material design" hipster insanity that removed shadowing and numerous other visual cues from UI design that we still suffer today.
bluGill 2y ago
Which would you prefer - a brand new basic car with the minimum legal features (so you get a backup camera, tire pressure monitoring, airbags ...). Or a 5 year old car with features like air conditioning, radio, infotainment, heated seats and so on? The reality is people who are cheap buy used cars anyway as for the same price as a bare bones new car they can get all the luxury features as well. People who care about their image demand all the luxury features and will not be seen in a car more than 3 years old. If we changed something (either legal, planned obsolesce, ???) so that cars only last 3 years, there would be a large market for bare bones cars as people who are cheap would buy them. (and many people who today buy new cars would be forced to buy a much cheaper car since their car no longer as more than scrap value). However the economics of cars mean anyone who would buy a bare bones car buys used.
- ipaddr 2y ago
  In time the used market will be filled with these cars that bare bones fans don't want. That will push down the price of recent used cars which means trade-in value lowers and new car fans can afford less which increases the barebones demand in new cars.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Cars have been around long enough that we can look at 70+ years of history and conclude if it hasn't happened yet it won't.
- rdtsc 2y ago
  I would buy a cheap basic car. I don’t want any fancy features and don’t want to care about how someone else took or didn’t take care of the car.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    There's dozens of us! Dozens!
juancn 2y ago
There are some, but they're really crappy: https://movilidad.coradir.com.ar/tito/ https://movilidad.coradir.com.ar/tito/
1ark 2y ago
Honda N-VAN e[1] or Honda e, maybe? 1. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/japans-honda-start-selling-micro-sized-electric-vans-october-2024-06-13/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/japans...
kkfx 2y ago
Because OEMs want you to be their puppet. So they need to remain in control on the "cars" the sell, to resell driving data to insurances, video to various third party (including porn ones) just to cite recent "scandals", and they need to justify the absurd price of new macro-bugs on wheels. Unfortunately most citizens do not even understand the tech so they do not even know that the crappy car-app is actually connected to the OEM servers like the car, they do not even know the car collect gazillion of data and so on. So the OEM can do pretty whatever they want, the percentage of people who understand is so little that nobody hear them.
jarbus 2y ago
I’d love a car like a Framework laptop but for EVs. I’d love to strip out the junk I don’t need and fix/change things myself for much cheaper than a mechanic.
- kylehotchkiss 2y ago
  Intension: low cost car repairs, longer service life Reality: Fast N Furious guys realize the ECU is tunable, break all the parameters, remove the muffler, and make their engine explode within 20,000 miles in the noisiest way possible.
kylehotchkiss 2y ago
Because data collection is a very profitable market for car manufacturers to enter. Most cars these days can make it to 200,000 miles and people buy them less often. I wish there was a website that had a guide for how to disable the 4g chip for every car model.
- faeranne 2y ago
  Someone want to setup a wiki for this? Seems like a good place for things like replacing the head unit correctly or other "make it my own" instructions.
iamleppert 2y ago
I'm determined to never buy a new car again. My 2016 Honda Civic will be the last car I ever drive, if I can help it. I own it, no car payment, its reliable, it works, it's not electric, efficient, no self driving features, no phone home, no Elon Musk, just an unsexy regular car and I couldn't be happier. Pure bliss.
alexk307 2y ago
They are...just in China, and with 40% tariffs if you want one.
constantcrying 2y ago
They are illegal and people don't want them. Yes, it really is as simple as that. Legality aside, making such a car a reality is at the very least 1B€ in development cost (you have to do a new electronics architecture and probably a new platform variant). You will never make a profit on such a car. The customer base is tiny and expects low prices, but low prices can only be achieved with high volumes.
- meowster 2y ago
  What's illegal about a low-tech (aka "dumb") electric car? Is there a law that requires connectivity, or for manufacturers to abuse that connectivity?
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    >What's illegal about a low-tech (aka "dumb") electric car? That it can't meet regulatory safety standards. E.g. drowsiness detection or crash detection to call emergency services mean that any car can not be "low tech" in any meaningful sense. So the best thing you can possibly get is a high tech car, where user facing technologies have been removed. Needlessly to say, the market for that is miniscule.
- speg 2y ago
  What is illegal?
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    A car without a complex internal electronic system.
leobg 2y ago
Why not buy a used 2014 Model S? It has a screen, sure. But it’s basically just battery and muscle.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- leobg 2y ago
  Also, it’s aluminum. So no rust, ever.
m463 2y ago
I hope someday there will be a backlash. - dumb TVs, or open-source TVs. - dumb phones, or completely open-source smart phones. - dumb EVs, or completely open-source EVs. I think the profit for open source stuff is not guaranteed, so funding a company is hard. People who fund companies want lock-in, patents, product monopoly. They don't want something that can be copied and productized by another company that had no R&D costs and then undercut in price. that said, it is definitely something society wants.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >dumb phones, or completely open-source smart phones. What use are dumb phones (i.e., feature phones)? They're only good for actually talking to people, and the only people I know who regularly use their phones for talking are my elderly relatives (in their 80s). Everyone younger than that uses their phones for: texting, games, web, various apps such as banking, etc. Actual talking is fairly rare, and usually only with some business (e.g. calling the doctor's office to schedule an appointment because they don't have a website reservation system, and even these places are dying out or moving online slowly).
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    That doesn’t fit my experience. Anything that involves typing out paragraphs of text almost immediately revert to a quick phone call where you can get the idea across in seconds instead of lots of minutes. These are people in their mid and early 30s.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      In my experience, when this happens, we just use the voice or video-calling function of whatever chat app we're using texting through. We don't use phone numbers. I've never actually even called my girlfriend, for instance; I only have her phone number in my contacts list for emergencies, but when I've talked with her, it's been through our chat app (LINE), since we can use video there.
teleforce 2y ago
Toyota has been producing and selling ultra compact BEV car for examples COMS and C+pod for some times now [1][2]. However there are not that popular outside Japan, and inside Japan many are being used for food and home delivery. Not only they're small and lightweight for urban commuting, the fact that for countries with frequent raining and hot climates they're much better proposition compared to the more accident prone motorcycles and EV bikes. For normal and sub-compact EV car, BYD Seagull is a game changer and without country and state protections, they will sell by truck loads of them, and at less than USD10K selling price in China now it's a steal [4]. I think Seagull is the main reason US, Europe and many countries around the world suddenly have the new tariffs for EV cars. Most of the tariffs were announced just several months Seagull was announced to the world, and they're not a coincident. When EV cars are dirt cheap to buy, operate and maintain you can say good bye to the local car manufacturers (even the EV ones) if there's no protection. Apparently and obviously the much touted free trades policy only works when it's for you but not against you, c'est la vie [5][6]. [1] Toyota C+pod: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C%2Bpod https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C%2Bpod [2] Toyota COMS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_COMS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_COMS [3] BYD Seagull: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull [4] Why a small China-made EV has global auto execs and politicians on edge: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/22/byd-seagull-ev-puts-global-auto-execs-politicians-on-edge.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/22/byd-seagull-ev-puts-global-a... [5] How will new EU tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles work? https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/how-will-new-eu-tariffs-on-chinese-electric-vehicles-work https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/how... [6] Biden hits Chinese electric cars and solar cells with higher tariffs: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-69004520 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-69004520
xbmcuser 2y ago
Not enough production yet to target those cheap customers. Today most companies would like to utilize all their production to make most money ie the most expensive. As demand gets saturated and they start looking for new customers they will get there.
Kirby64 2y ago
One of the main reasons: the margins on the high tech stuff is much better than all the low tech stuff, and amortizing the software of the high tech stuff across their entire line is much easier than just on the high end stuff alone.
sircastor 2y ago
I used to work in luxury automotive infotainment. The general feeling is that luxury customers want luxury level systems. EVs are still considered by the industry to be upper-level vehicles. Which is to say they still believe they’re catering to with more money. We’re not going to see a low-tech EV for a long time. In my opinion, we’re not ever going to see one. And respectfully to you and all the other folks here who feel like you, I don’t think you represent the average driver in this regard.
- defrost 2y ago
  > We’re not going to see a low-tech EV for a long time. Have a look at last years low end BYD domestic market EV offers, there's a crazy amount of choice in style, design, and no frills offerings. By "we" I'm guessing you mean the tariff protected domestic north american and european markets. The domestic BYD Seagull sells for under $10K USD on home soil and isn't being exported much ATM: https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-byd-seagull-unveiled-not-for-australia/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-byd-seagull-unveiled-not-... China spins out a lot of variations on a theme, there's bound to be limited run versions with little more than the absolute bare essentials to have a functional EV - the asian phone market is an indicator of the kind of range that is just not seen in the western markets.
  - sircastor 2y ago
    > By "we" I'm guessing you mean the tariff protected domestic north american and european markets. Yes, I apologize for the western-centric approach there, though I would extend that position to the UAE and Saudi-Arabia. The NA OEMs are not interested in bringing very low-cost vehicles to market. And the low-cost OEMs from Europe haven’t really been able to reach the American market. aside from a very outlier products.
    - defrost 2y ago
      No drama. Odd aside, these days "low tech" (minimal effort, low cost) cars are going to have screens and control by wire interfaces for many things - it's 2024 and touch screens are a throw away disposable item compared to physical controls, tension cables, routing looms for every physical switch and interface light bulb, etc. In a sense the ideal notion of a "low tech car" is now a hand crafted artisan object.
morningsam 2y ago
As usual with these kinds of things, European standards bodies to the rescue [1]: >Euro NCAP – Europe’s leading automotive safety industry body – has stated that from 2026 new guidance will be introduced over physical buttons and touchscreens. >Euro NCAP’s rules are not mandatory for manufacturers to follow, but the threat of losing points will likely impact the decisions of many of the leading brands in the years ahead. Although I would prefer a hard ban of touchscreen-only car controls in EU countries, which would obviously have more of an impact. [1]: https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/driving-tech/is-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-car-touchscreens/ https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/driving-tech/is-the-beginni... (5th Mar 2024)
mstaoru 2y ago
Lived in China 2009-2022, when I arrived they were just starting to experience the boom - and forced China-style adoption (aka "all gas scooters are banned starting from tomorrow" out of blue) - of electric scooters. At that time I wondered, why not just "put two scooters together" with a shell, and voila, a car! Fast forward to 2020s and that's exactly what's going on. There is a lot of EV "cars" cars in China that barely qualify as a car (e.g. Wuling Hongguang) and cost as low as 20,000 RMB (~US$3,000). I would not want to buy those, though. The current EV boom is forced by planned economy with huge subsidies, which always attracts "wrong crowd" in China. There are hundreds of brands right now, but once the subsidies dry up, 99% of them will shut down, leaving unsupported hastily slapped together cars to rot.
gary_0 2y ago
I will never buy a car that can connect to the Internet. I will make any sacrifice and go to any length.
- thecrims0nchin 2y ago
  Are there many 2024ish models with this option? Or are you limited to older cars
- LUmBULtERA 2y ago
  "It's an integrated computer network, and I will not have it aboard this ship." :) -William Adama, BSG
- pxmpxm 2y ago
  Seconded, or any appliance for that matter.
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
EV conversions of older models probably fills this tiny niche quite well. I had assumed the overly loud voices complaining about this "issue" were just the latest iteration of intelligent people inventing convoluted reasons to go along with their political tribe's insane policy preferences. Like if you're a Republican on HN you can't just openly deny climate change exists any more (though a few still try), you want plausible deniability that your intense love for nuclear power isn't just an excuse to spread outdated lies about renewables. Similarly you can loudly announce that you'll never buy an EV, and then when people put you in the "coal rolling idiot" bucket you can surprise them by revealing that it's actually a ridiculously niche concern about too much tech that you've invented to go along with your political peers in their hatred of EVs. And people reading then move you into a subtly different subsection of the anti-EV crank bucket in their mind.
- jryb 2y ago
  While political identity certainly plays some role, a BEV is still a major purchase and people will take other factors into account. Is it really inconceivable that someone would want a car like the ones they're used to, except with a different power source? Every time I look at electric cars there's always some insane choice, e.g. the brake lights don't turn on when regenerative braking is active, even though your car is rapidly decelerating. The touch screens are also a safety concern - you can't change the music or skip ahead on a podcast without taking your eyes off the road for a meaningful amount of time. The fact that you're paying well over the median price for a new car makes it even less appealing. FWIW I don't own a car and I'm not in a hurry to get one.
giantg2 2y ago
The biggest hurdle is cost. The batteries cost a lot and so they throw in a bunch of tech and other premium features to make the cost appealing to the larger market. The next biggest issue is regulation. Depending on jurisdiction, it's likely that things from backup cameras to autobraking and more are required or will be shortly. Even drowsy driver and drunk driver protections are already in laws/regs for future adoption.
runjake 2y ago
Because they wouldn't sell nor meet regulatory requirements in countries like the US. I myself dream of low-tech car, but then again, I do like CarPlay, adaptive AWD, radar, and lane assist a whole bunch. (I assume you're asking about the US, because there are low-tech options in many other countries.) If you want a low-tech car, your best bet is to buy an early 2000s model of something that is well-regarded and can continue to be maintained long term (eg. Toyota). There are a lot of Internet resources that cherry-pick these desirable models and years for you.
RecycledEle 2y ago
We need standards so that mid-sized companies can make parts that meet standards and other mid-sized companies can assemble those parts into cars. The battery bus should be 2 wires (+ and -) and automotive-grade Cat 6. The voltage on the 2 wires should vary between 200 V DC and 400 V DC as the batteries are charged and drained. Any kind of battery can be connected in parallel. You can connect NiCad, NiMH, Li-Ion, LiPo, and AGM batteries all in parallel provided you put the right number of cells in each battery module to get the correct voltage. You can not put 2 different chemistries of batteries in series. So everything on the battery bus should be connected in parallel. The Cat 6 should run a variant of CANbus tunneled through Ethernet. If a battery can not handle the voltage on the battery bus (for example because the bus is at 200 V, and the battery is charged to 400 V) then the battery should disconnect. This is easily accomplished with small DC motors driving screws, just like low-battery cut-offs do. Battery bays should be standard sizes. 18" x 30" x 6" would be good. That can fit under seats, under a truck's bed, and under a trunk or frunk. They can even fit under floorboards. Motors should be housed in modular, sealed units with gearboxes and motor controllers. There should be spaces to install motors on every axle or even on every wheel. The gearing inside the motor units should give an output that is about the speed we expect from a car tire going down the road. All batteries and motors should connect to the some parallel battery bus. If you want more range, add another battery. If you want AWD, add another motor or two. All drive components should be connected by CANbus. Replacing your accelerator pedal should be as easy as a few screws and an electrical connector. Brakes and steering still need mechanical linkages to comply with safety laws, for now. A standard battery bus would enable other cool things: 1. Any car could have a generator to make it a 2-stage hybrid. 2. RVs could use the same batteries and generators as electric cars. 3. Off-grid applications and grid-tie applications could use the same batteries as electric cars. This makes it even easier to tie car batteries into the power grid. 4. Because battery busses and battery bays are standard, a medium-sized company can build capacitor banks that drop in. 5. Power transfers between 2 batteries on the bus can work, coordinated by CANbus-over-Ethernet. If you are driving down a mountain, you can regeneratively brake into your capacitor bank, then slowly charge your batteries from that bank. 6. Grid-scale battery deployments can use the same batteries as cars. The marginal cost of making another 1 million batteries is a lot less if you already made 2 million of them. 7. Battery chargers that plug into wall power, power inverters, air compressors, and other devices can also be slotted into standard battery bays and interface into standard battery buses. This gives a lot more flexibility to a work truck than the built-in air compressor some brands like to include. Imagine a 2-stage diesel-electric medium-duty truck (that's the size of a UPS truck or a big Amazon delivery truck) that has a hydraulic compressor in a battery bay so it can lift or lower the truck and a lift gate on the rear end. 8. You could buy a cheap electric car with a single Li-Ion battery and a single motor on the front axle. Later, you could add 2 more batteries to almost triple the range and another motor on the rear axle. Not all motors have to deliver the same horsepower, so your little 85 horse-power commuter car could become a 300 horse-power AWD machine. More upgrades could turn it into a 700 horse-power muscle car. This would be the biggest selling point. Buying a stripped-down electric car would be an aspirational purchase. The buyer's goal would be to one day upgrade it to a long-range supercar. Cars could grow with buyers. A kid's first car could be upgrade to AWD when they realize it slides on snow and ice. After a wreck totals the car, the motors and batteries could be moved to a newer model. 9. Concerns over recycling batteries and motors go away if most cars use the same interfaces to the batteries and motors. Old electric cars can be parted out like old Chevys. There is never a reason for an old Chevy small-block V8 to go to waste; millions of cars can use them. Ditto standard electric batteries and motors. SAE and IEEE should coordinate to establish standards, then we should be able to swap out drive train parts as easily as we swap out wheels and tires on our cars today. I wonder if the free market will adopt such standards, or if it will take regulations to push big auto makers into standardizing battery buses, packs, and motors.
t312227 2y ago
imho. (!) indirect: because we live in "capitalism"? eg. companies are "in it" for the money / the profit!? * if i sell you a car, i want to sell you the most expensive car you are willing to buy, because that increases my profit. cars are products, which you buy once every xx years, not every week, not 2 or 3 at once etc. so as a company i have to "make out of this single sale" as much as possible in terms of money. i call this the "SUV effect": make everything just a little bit "bigger" with every iteration of the product to justify a price-hike ... accompanied by ads, which tell you, why you need this & that additional feature ... repeat!! ;)) just my 0.02€
kdot 2y ago
https://scoutmotors.com https://scoutmotors.com

132 points by julienreszka 2y ago

Just let me drive. I don't need fancy screens.

frankjr 2y ago

Right? I would be perfectly content with a feature set from 30 years ago.

ted_bunny 2y ago
I wonder if people know exactly how much they're psying for each little gizmo that rolls down their windows, adds a PIN to their door, etc. I bet you could cut about 25% of the price off by removing goofy crap you don't need.
- doix 2y ago
  > I bet you could cut about 25% of the price off by removing goofy crap you don't need. Most of those things are low cost, high margin extras. Removing them wouldn't really decrease the cost of the car for the manufacturer. A lot of the time, if you don't pay for the extra's, they are included in the car anyway because it's not worth the effort of customizing the build. They are just disabled in software.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    This is something that people without a manufacturing background often don't appreciate. Modern production lines are so efficient that it's frequently more cost effective to build all units of a product with the same hardware but disable some features in software. I first came across this 20+ years ago working for an office equipment manufacturer. We had to add code for the service people to enable a feature in the machine that was already present (and pretty expensive to build), but not turned on until the customer paid for it. I remember at the time asking if it wouldn't piss customers off to know that they were paying for something that was already installed, but it didn't seem to faze the Marketing people in the least. Then again, the buyer was someone in a corporate office who would probably never actually see the machine anyway.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      Yeah, this kind of thing will really piss off individual consumers, but corporate buyers have an entirely different mindset. Corporate customers frequently lease stuff anyway, rather than buying it, because of the way that this affects taxation.
  - ted_bunny 2y ago
    I meant, if a modern line of cars were made without the bells and whistles in the first place.

bell-cot 2y ago

The really difficult and expensive part is manufacturing decent cars, at scale. The profit margins on that part generally suck - so Capitalism says "hahaha...NO". The pretty-easy-and-cheap part is adding glitzy screens to cars. Doing that gets most people all excited...and willing to shell out far more money. In an extremely well-run socialist country, there'd probably be good, low-tech electric cars.

jerf 2y ago
The car industry has an unusual profit curve. They have huge, huge fixed costs. It's not just the factory, it's the testing, compliance, marketing, etc. However, the price you pay for a car is substantially more than the marginal cost of producing it. So that industry is a famine-or-feast industry. Either they are losing money in mind-boggling quantities, or they are making money in mind-boggling quantities. There is not a lot of in between. Unfortunately, the connection to the question the original poster asked is that they basically can't risk not selling a car because it doesn't have some hot feature that most of the market wants, so you won't see a screen-free car made today. Putting $100 of hardware in to seal the deal is a no-brainer in their profit model. (Though they will trim every penny on it, as they do everything else; it may seem like a contradiction but if you think about it enough it'll make sense. Consider the term "bullet-point feature" in our industry.) Until the market as a whole screams for it, it won't exist.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  >So that industry is a famine-or-feast industry. Either they are losing money in mind-boggling quantities, or they are making money in mind-boggling quantities. There is not a lot of in between. Search profit margins for Toyota/Ford/Volkswagen/Mercedes/BMW/Honda/etc All are in the 5% to 10% range, which is objectively a middle of the road profit margin. Mind boggling is what tech/oil/pharma/finance does, at 20%, 30%, even 40%+ profit margins. Which is why they are at the top of market cap rankings. https://companiesmarketcap.com/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago

muzani 2y ago

Ora, BYD, Neta. Maybe Chinese cars aren't popular there?

2rsf 2y ago
Are they low-tech? at least BYD presents all the known tech, bells and whistles for a lower price.
- muzani 2y ago
  What's the definition of low tech? Golf carts? Cars without a screen seem about as rare as phones without a camera.
twunde 2y ago
If the OP is in the US, Chinese cars are unavailable since they don't meet US standards. Additionally, there is a level of protectionism that will try to prevent them from being introduced in the US.
- brianbreslin 2y ago
  There are also 100% tariffs on Chinese cars in the US. so doubling the price. Chinese EV manufacturers will likely set up final assembly plants in Mexico and ship them 90% finished, and then they will be able to circumvent that tariff. That's how Chinese steel manufacturers get into the US market.
- r0ckarong 2y ago
  They're unavailable for the same reason they're expensive here in Germany. Government protecting the local automobile industries.
glintik 2y ago
They are nor low tech, not a real budget cars.

ungreased0675 2y ago

I also wonder this. Electric cars tend to be larger heavy luxury vehicles, the opposite of what we need more of. Where are the small efficient commuter vehicles?

Jeremy1026 2y ago
You have larger margins on larger luxury vehicles. Manufacturers are getting their R&D money back by selling these cars first before they trickle down to lower cost (and lower margin) econoboxes.
some_random 2y ago
The tech is still immature and can't compete with similarly priced vehicles except at the top end of the market. Tesla is the only seems to be getting the scale required to push the price down.
brokenmachine 2y ago
Talking about ICE vehicles, just about EVERY new car seems to be a larger heavy luxury vehicle. Maybe it's just where I'm living? I thought it was because they increased the efficiency requirements for standard wheelbase vehicles. Intended effect: manufacturers make more efficient vehicles. Actual effect: manufacturers make gigantic, less efficient, more expensive vehicles.

twoquestions 2y ago

I wonder the same, there's a bunch of budget electric bikes out there, I'd love something small that I can get around in the winter with!

bluGill 2y ago
> I'd love something small that I can get around in the winter with! Try a coat. If you look around you discover that cycling cities tend to be places with harsh winters. While cycling dies off in winter, there are some die-hards go year round and they will report what you need if you ask them.
- david-gpu 2y ago
  Yeah, I live in Toronto and cycle year round. Simply wear winter clothes, like you would do if you went out for a walk.

glintik 2y ago

That’s a good catch. I also wondered because there are vast amount of people want just personal vehicle to move from A to B.

calrain 2y ago

Wouldn't electric car conversions count as low tech? Like those VW or 2CV conversions.

jitl 2y ago

The big reason screens matter for electric cars is planning long range trips with stops at a battery charge location. Without the map/screen in-car you can’t integrate battery level with routing. Maybe you’re fine doing this manually, but range anxiety is the big reason consumers who can afford electric don’t buy electric, so it seems self defeating to remove features that help with that. The screens and stuff aren’t that much extra, often it helps save more on tooling/logistics for plastic buttons and dials. Additionally, CarPlay/Android Auto is a hard requirement for me and many other consumers these days. I wouldn’t consider a car - gas or electric - without it. I opted for a Mercedes gas car in part because there was no overall good electric car with wireless CarPlay in my price range.

jacknews 2y ago
That's what your phone or tablet is for. No need for all that custom UI tech in the car, just provide a documented API and open-source app you can run on your phone or even dedicate a tablet for it. Proprietary screens and their supporting computers will be obsolete quickly, will break easily and be exorbitantly expensive to fix/replace, and of course there's a good chance they will also surveil everything you do, mostly for the benefit of the manufacturer. Just say no to smart appliances, especially something as central as your personal transport.
- bluGill 2y ago
  I have no confidence that auto/carplay of today will work with whatever phone I have in 12 years. Car makers want to ship their cars and forget about them. They hate warranty work. Tesla does software updates but the others don't want to (they do but only when they must or if they can charge for them - the maps on my 12 year old car are way out of date because like most car buyers I won't pay to update them). I'm not even sure that phones in 12 years will have communications (usb, bluetooth, wifi) compatible with the infotainment system in today's new cars. I am sure I will not be using today's phone as 5g towers will be shutting down.
  - jacknews 2y ago

erellsworth 2y ago

Because marketing departments like to have lots of features to advertise. There's a lot of money in selling people things they don't need or even want.

gonzo41 2y ago

I totally agree, I really want a Caterham 7 with 4 electric hub motors and the battery where the engine used to go. It seems like it should be actually pretty cheap to build. I do think the reason we havn't seen this class yet is that EV's are yuppie cars. They are sold at a premium for people who think this is the thing that will solve CC. When really taking busses, even petrol ones would probably do more.

brabel 2y ago

The Nissan Leaf has been available for many years now , and it is a very basic car (not sure you would qualify it as low tech): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf Still much more expensive than the equivalent cars with a combustion engine though.

edent 2y ago

Citroën Ami is about as low tech as you can get. If you want something more car-shaped, the Renault Zoe has very few tech feature. Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! No radar, lane assist, carplay or anything like that. Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise control, she wants lane assist, he wants automatic parking. Creating a dozen different SKUs for all those things is complicated. Getting regulatory approval for every variation is expensive. So most manufacturers sell only a few variations of their models.

eloisant 2y ago
Do you mean Citroen Ami?
- edent 2y ago
  Thanks. Corrected.
glintik 2y ago
The downside of Zoe is Renault. For its tech price should be much less.
danybittel 2y ago
Wouldn't it be fun if electric cars were the same way as PC's. Plug and play the parts you want, switch motor / battery.. choose a new chassis as you wish. And LED lights of course.
- tnel77 2y ago
  Man I can dream! That sounds incredible.
- nottorp 2y ago
  They kind of are. But at manufacturer level. Everyone now has like 3-4 chassis options and they build cars on top of that.

baali 2y ago

MG Motors in India introduced Comet: https://www.mgmotor.co.in/vehicles/comet-ev-electric-car-in-india https://www.mgmotor.co.in/vehicles/comet-ev-electric-car-in-... It still has a big screen though.

karaterobot 2y ago

I hate touch screens too. And I hate when my car yells at me. My view is, until they release a car where self-driving actually works, there's no basis for my car telling me—30 years of driving in the city, zero accidents—how to drive. But, there's a bound to how low tech a car can be, especially for companies who are looking ahead to increasingly prescriptive safety regulations in the future. Cars sold in the U.S. need a lot of sensors, computers, and mechanisms to take control of the vehicle away from you when it thinks it's necessary. It's just the law. The idea of a simple box with four wheels and some number of motors is pretty much not a viable option, legally speaking.

pen2l 2y ago

Fancy screens are essentially low-tech now though, they've been commodified, Apple and Google will hook up car companies with that and it's not gonna cost them much. Bespoke buttons with soft touch is what is exotic.

r0ckarong 2y ago

Because everybody wants to be Apple.

Simulacra 2y ago

The Arcimoto seems like what you're looking for.

rapjr9 2y ago
Looks like Arcimoto is gone, Wikipedia says their web site disappeared in March 2024 and they defaulted on several obligations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcimoto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcimoto Maybe it will live on if someone buys the IP.
- Simulacra 2y ago
  Ah man. Thank you, I didn't realize. I got to ride around in one at a car show and thought it be a nice little community vehicle.

SkyPuncher 2y ago

Because “low tech” doesn’t mean cheap. The tech components of cars makes up a small fraction of the cost, but represents significant value.

julienreszka 2y ago
The aspect that I personally would enjoy is privacy and low maintenance + easy fixes. I can afford expensive low tech.

mushufasa 2y ago

So the unit economics of electric cars are quite different from gas cars (ICE = internal combustion). Electric car companies don't make money on low cost cars -- and neither can ICE cars! Basic ICE cars are essentially sold at cost, sometimes as loss leaders, because the manufacturers make a long-tail of money supplying parts and maintenance for the cars over their lifetime; for 10-20 years they now have a (variable) recurring revenue stream. So a lot of automakers' incentives are to get as large of a fleet as possible. Electric cars inherently have much less of a maintenance burden because there are way fewer moving parts in a motor versus an engine. For example, there's no oil changes ever 3k miles or timing belts to replace ever 30k miles. That means, for electric car companies, business model options are a) introduce SaaS subscriptions for electronic features (a - la Tesla Autopilot premium, supercharger network subscriptions) b) introduce unnecessary complexity to increase maintenance revenue (gullwing doors) c) sell at a profit margin off the factory. Can have higher margins and higher total profit for luxury cars versus basic cars And Tesla's recent push towards robotaxis of their existing fleet would be a totally killer disruption of the unit economics by generating recurring revenue off their fleet. So all the incentives for electric cars point towards high tech luxury, not basic eco-cars. There may be an exception to the rule in some countries, and those may be related to government subsidies.

janice1999 2y ago
> a) introduce SaaS subscriptions for electronic feature All the manufacturing are talking about is the need for the 'vehicle as a platform' to sell subscriptions, services and driver data. I've seen so many PowerPoints about this, it's nauseating.
bluGill 2y ago
> Electric cars inherently have much less of a maintenance burden because there are way fewer moving parts in a motor versus an engine. A modern ICE outlasts the rest of the car. You might replace the alternator or water pump, but those are made by third parties not the OEM. You will replace the oil, but again, the OEM doesn't make that. The dealers make a lot of money on after sales, but (except Tesla) those are independent third parties. The manufacture doesn't get much after sales. OEM parts do sell for more than third party. And so there is money in OEM parts, but after 5 years most people are buying replacement parts from the third party (the OEM doesn't make those parts - they are buying from a third party and putting a markup on them). Sometimes people will buy OEM parts instead of a third party as OEM tends to give much higher quality vs random third party.

tjansen 2y ago

Not sure about other regions, but in the EU, low tech cars are not allowed. Required safety systems include emergency breaking, emergency lane-keeping, intelligent speed assistance (car must use cameras or GPS to determine current speed limit), driver attention warning systems and many more. That fancy screen is really not a cost factor. These days you can buy after-market screens with Car Play and Android auto support for 100 EURs or less. But all the safety systems needs lots of sensors, and also the ability to auto-brake and auto-steer in emergency situations. https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/new-vehicle-safety-systems.html https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/...

Kuinox 2y ago
It's wrong, we have the Twizy, the Ami and the Zoe in France. The most technological advanced thing in the Zoe is the Bluetooth to play music.
- tjansen 2y ago
  I guess that's why the Zoe has been discontinued: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe Twizy and Ami are not regular passenger vehicles. I am sure there are less requirements for them.
  - Kuinox 2y ago
    Zoe is very popular in France and is being discontinued because it's replaced by the new Alpine A290, that was announced 2 hours ago. Edit: Correction, it's the most popular electric car un Europe. > by the end of 2020, the Zoe ranked as the all-time best selling plug-in car in Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe#Sales_and_markets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe#Sales_and_markets
    - tjansen 2y ago
      I believe the Zoe's successor is the Renault 5 e (the A290 seems to be a performance version of the 5e). The Renault 5 has advanced ADAS, since it's required for all new cars, and is, according to Renault, "packed with electrical and digital technology": https://media.renault.com/renault-5-e-tech-electric-the-electric-renaulutionary-pop-icon/ https://media.renault.com/renault-5-e-tech-electric-the-elec...

yazantapuz 2y ago

In Argentina we have a local manufacturer producing an electricar car named Tito: https://movilidad.coradir.com.ar/tito/ https://movilidad.coradir.com.ar/tito/

isawczuk 2y ago

This is exact same topic I was wondering. Frame + electric motor + battery + gamepad + cpu. From my research, it's boils down to: 1. Car is still a wealth marker. Not enough people think about it just as a means of transpiration. If they do they mostly use public transport or uber/escooters. 2. Car frame - you need to meet security standards, it cost a lot 3. Battery - current technology is expensive 4. Car lobby - especially in Europe, there are large tariffs to bring EV cars from Asia.

HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
> Car is still a wealth marker. Definitely not in the US.
- faeranne 2y ago
  Oh it definitely is, it's just also a requirement for reasonable living in most of the US too. It's not a good combo.
sebnukem2 2y ago
The bicycle is definitively the best mean of _transpiration_.

mobilio 2y ago

Dacia Spring is low tech electric car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid#Dacia_Spring_Electric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid#Dacia_Spring_Elec...

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

diwank 2y ago

The Pagani Utopia is fairly new (launched September 2022) and is completely bereft of screens and gizmos. A complete work of art costing a mere $2.5 million

speedgoose 2y ago
And it’s not an EV.

willcipriano 2y ago

Regulatory capture made it illegal to not add "safety features" that Detroit has the patents on/other types of manufacturing exclusivity (for example certified glass). Then the tariffs that prevent any meaningful foreign competition. The rest is all the automakers run by the same consultanting firm and they don't really compete all that hard with eachother anymore.

nottorp 2y ago

Because there are some early adopters left with more money than sense. And the subsidies are fading but aren't gone for good. And because everyone's copying Tesla's unusable interface for some unknown reason. I doubt Musk would recognize a rotating physical a/c control if it fell off a Falcon and hit him on the head.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
As crappy and annoying Tesla's UI can be, just keep in mind Tesla's software capability is 10x better than any other auto company (or more correctly their OEMs) were capable of.
- nottorp 2y ago
  Oh yeah, but what does that help with when you can't change your a/c to recirculate and back without stopping the car? Or when you simply can't ... figure ... out ... the "smart" turn stalk?
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    I'm certainly not going to defend minimalism-to-the-extreme design that gave us the ribbon in macbooks, removed the stalk/buttons in cars, or other movements that pretend that palpable controls using one of our fundamental senses (touch) are superfluous. They're from the same "material design" hipster insanity that removed shadowing and numerous other visual cues from UI design that we still suffer today.

bluGill 2y ago

Which would you prefer - a brand new basic car with the minimum legal features (so you get a backup camera, tire pressure monitoring, airbags ...). Or a 5 year old car with features like air conditioning, radio, infotainment, heated seats and so on? The reality is people who are cheap buy used cars anyway as for the same price as a bare bones new car they can get all the luxury features as well. People who care about their image demand all the luxury features and will not be seen in a car more than 3 years old. If we changed something (either legal, planned obsolesce, ???) so that cars only last 3 years, there would be a large market for bare bones cars as people who are cheap would buy them. (and many people who today buy new cars would be forced to buy a much cheaper car since their car no longer as more than scrap value). However the economics of cars mean anyone who would buy a bare bones car buys used.

ipaddr 2y ago
In time the used market will be filled with these cars that bare bones fans don't want. That will push down the price of recent used cars which means trade-in value lowers and new car fans can afford less which increases the barebones demand in new cars.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Cars have been around long enough that we can look at 70+ years of history and conclude if it hasn't happened yet it won't.
rdtsc 2y ago
I would buy a cheap basic car. I don’t want any fancy features and don’t want to care about how someone else took or didn’t take care of the car.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  There's dozens of us! Dozens!

juancn 2y ago

There are some, but they're really crappy: https://movilidad.coradir.com.ar/tito/ https://movilidad.coradir.com.ar/tito/

1ark 2y ago

Honda N-VAN e[1] or Honda e, maybe? 1. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/japans-honda-start-selling-micro-sized-electric-vans-october-2024-06-13/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/japans...

kkfx 2y ago

Because OEMs want you to be their puppet. So they need to remain in control on the "cars" the sell, to resell driving data to insurances, video to various third party (including porn ones) just to cite recent "scandals", and they need to justify the absurd price of new macro-bugs on wheels. Unfortunately most citizens do not even understand the tech so they do not even know that the crappy car-app is actually connected to the OEM servers like the car, they do not even know the car collect gazillion of data and so on. So the OEM can do pretty whatever they want, the percentage of people who understand is so little that nobody hear them.

jarbus 2y ago

I’d love a car like a Framework laptop but for EVs. I’d love to strip out the junk I don’t need and fix/change things myself for much cheaper than a mechanic.

kylehotchkiss 2y ago
Intension: low cost car repairs, longer service life Reality: Fast N Furious guys realize the ECU is tunable, break all the parameters, remove the muffler, and make their engine explode within 20,000 miles in the noisiest way possible.

kylehotchkiss 2y ago

Because data collection is a very profitable market for car manufacturers to enter. Most cars these days can make it to 200,000 miles and people buy them less often. I wish there was a website that had a guide for how to disable the 4g chip for every car model.

faeranne 2y ago
Someone want to setup a wiki for this? Seems like a good place for things like replacing the head unit correctly or other "make it my own" instructions.

iamleppert 2y ago

I'm determined to never buy a new car again. My 2016 Honda Civic will be the last car I ever drive, if I can help it. I own it, no car payment, its reliable, it works, it's not electric, efficient, no self driving features, no phone home, no Elon Musk, just an unsexy regular car and I couldn't be happier. Pure bliss.

alexk307 2y ago

They are...just in China, and with 40% tariffs if you want one.

constantcrying 2y ago

They are illegal and people don't want them. Yes, it really is as simple as that. Legality aside, making such a car a reality is at the very least 1B€ in development cost (you have to do a new electronics architecture and probably a new platform variant). You will never make a profit on such a car. The customer base is tiny and expects low prices, but low prices can only be achieved with high volumes.

meowster 2y ago
What's illegal about a low-tech (aka "dumb") electric car? Is there a law that requires connectivity, or for manufacturers to abuse that connectivity?
- constantcrying 2y ago
  >What's illegal about a low-tech (aka "dumb") electric car? That it can't meet regulatory safety standards. E.g. drowsiness detection or crash detection to call emergency services mean that any car can not be "low tech" in any meaningful sense. So the best thing you can possibly get is a high tech car, where user facing technologies have been removed. Needlessly to say, the market for that is miniscule.
speg 2y ago
What is illegal?
- constantcrying 2y ago
  A car without a complex internal electronic system.

leobg 2y ago

Why not buy a used 2014 Model S? It has a screen, sure. But it’s basically just battery and muscle.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
leobg 2y ago
Also, it’s aluminum. So no rust, ever.

m463 2y ago

I hope someday there will be a backlash. - dumb TVs, or open-source TVs. - dumb phones, or completely open-source smart phones. - dumb EVs, or completely open-source EVs. I think the profit for open source stuff is not guaranteed, so funding a company is hard. People who fund companies want lock-in, patents, product monopoly. They don't want something that can be copied and productized by another company that had no R&D costs and then undercut in price. that said, it is definitely something society wants.

shiroiushi 2y ago
>dumb phones, or completely open-source smart phones. What use are dumb phones (i.e., feature phones)? They're only good for actually talking to people, and the only people I know who regularly use their phones for talking are my elderly relatives (in their 80s). Everyone younger than that uses their phones for: texting, games, web, various apps such as banking, etc. Actual talking is fairly rare, and usually only with some business (e.g. calling the doctor's office to schedule an appointment because they don't have a website reservation system, and even these places are dying out or moving online slowly).
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  That doesn’t fit my experience. Anything that involves typing out paragraphs of text almost immediately revert to a quick phone call where you can get the idea across in seconds instead of lots of minutes. These are people in their mid and early 30s.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    In my experience, when this happens, we just use the voice or video-calling function of whatever chat app we're using texting through. We don't use phone numbers. I've never actually even called my girlfriend, for instance; I only have her phone number in my contacts list for emergencies, but when I've talked with her, it's been through our chat app (LINE), since we can use video there.

teleforce 2y ago

Toyota has been producing and selling ultra compact BEV car for examples COMS and C+pod for some times now [1][2]. However there are not that popular outside Japan, and inside Japan many are being used for food and home delivery. Not only they're small and lightweight for urban commuting, the fact that for countries with frequent raining and hot climates they're much better proposition compared to the more accident prone motorcycles and EV bikes. For normal and sub-compact EV car, BYD Seagull is a game changer and without country and state protections, they will sell by truck loads of them, and at less than USD10K selling price in China now it's a steal [4]. I think Seagull is the main reason US, Europe and many countries around the world suddenly have the new tariffs for EV cars. Most of the tariffs were announced just several months Seagull was announced to the world, and they're not a coincident. When EV cars are dirt cheap to buy, operate and maintain you can say good bye to the local car manufacturers (even the EV ones) if there's no protection. Apparently and obviously the much touted free trades policy only works when it's for you but not against you, c'est la vie [5][6]. [1] Toyota C+pod: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C%2Bpod https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C%2Bpod [2] Toyota COMS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_COMS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_COMS [3] BYD Seagull: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull [4] Why a small China-made EV has global auto execs and politicians on edge: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/22/byd-seagull-ev-puts-global-auto-execs-politicians-on-edge.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/22/byd-seagull-ev-puts-global-a... [5] How will new EU tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles work? https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/how-will-new-eu-tariffs-on-chinese-electric-vehicles-work https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/12/how... [6] Biden hits Chinese electric cars and solar cells with higher tariffs: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-69004520 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-69004520

xbmcuser 2y ago

Not enough production yet to target those cheap customers. Today most companies would like to utilize all their production to make most money ie the most expensive. As demand gets saturated and they start looking for new customers they will get there.

Kirby64 2y ago

One of the main reasons: the margins on the high tech stuff is much better than all the low tech stuff, and amortizing the software of the high tech stuff across their entire line is much easier than just on the high end stuff alone.

sircastor 2y ago

I used to work in luxury automotive infotainment. The general feeling is that luxury customers want luxury level systems. EVs are still considered by the industry to be upper-level vehicles. Which is to say they still believe they’re catering to with more money. We’re not going to see a low-tech EV for a long time. In my opinion, we’re not ever going to see one. And respectfully to you and all the other folks here who feel like you, I don’t think you represent the average driver in this regard.

defrost 2y ago
> We’re not going to see a low-tech EV for a long time. Have a look at last years low end BYD domestic market EV offers, there's a crazy amount of choice in style, design, and no frills offerings. By "we" I'm guessing you mean the tariff protected domestic north american and european markets. The domestic BYD Seagull sells for under $10K USD on home soil and isn't being exported much ATM: https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-byd-seagull-unveiled-not-for-australia/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/2023-byd-seagull-unveiled-not-... China spins out a lot of variations on a theme, there's bound to be limited run versions with little more than the absolute bare essentials to have a functional EV - the asian phone market is an indicator of the kind of range that is just not seen in the western markets.
- sircastor 2y ago
  > By "we" I'm guessing you mean the tariff protected domestic north american and european markets. Yes, I apologize for the western-centric approach there, though I would extend that position to the UAE and Saudi-Arabia. The NA OEMs are not interested in bringing very low-cost vehicles to market. And the low-cost OEMs from Europe haven’t really been able to reach the American market. aside from a very outlier products.
  - defrost 2y ago
    No drama. Odd aside, these days "low tech" (minimal effort, low cost) cars are going to have screens and control by wire interfaces for many things - it's 2024 and touch screens are a throw away disposable item compared to physical controls, tension cables, routing looms for every physical switch and interface light bulb, etc. In a sense the ideal notion of a "low tech car" is now a hand crafted artisan object.

morningsam 2y ago

As usual with these kinds of things, European standards bodies to the rescue [1]: >Euro NCAP – Europe’s leading automotive safety industry body – has stated that from 2026 new guidance will be introduced over physical buttons and touchscreens. >Euro NCAP’s rules are not mandatory for manufacturers to follow, but the threat of losing points will likely impact the decisions of many of the leading brands in the years ahead. Although I would prefer a hard ban of touchscreen-only car controls in EU countries, which would obviously have more of an impact. [1]: https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/driving-tech/is-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-car-touchscreens/ https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/driving-tech/is-the-beginni... (5th Mar 2024)

mstaoru 2y ago

Lived in China 2009-2022, when I arrived they were just starting to experience the boom - and forced China-style adoption (aka "all gas scooters are banned starting from tomorrow" out of blue) - of electric scooters. At that time I wondered, why not just "put two scooters together" with a shell, and voila, a car! Fast forward to 2020s and that's exactly what's going on. There is a lot of EV "cars" cars in China that barely qualify as a car (e.g. Wuling Hongguang) and cost as low as 20,000 RMB (~US$3,000). I would not want to buy those, though. The current EV boom is forced by planned economy with huge subsidies, which always attracts "wrong crowd" in China. There are hundreds of brands right now, but once the subsidies dry up, 99% of them will shut down, leaving unsupported hastily slapped together cars to rot.

gary_0 2y ago

I will never buy a car that can connect to the Internet. I will make any sacrifice and go to any length.

thecrims0nchin 2y ago
Are there many 2024ish models with this option? Or are you limited to older cars
LUmBULtERA 2y ago
"It's an integrated computer network, and I will not have it aboard this ship." :) -William Adama, BSG
pxmpxm 2y ago
Seconded, or any appliance for that matter.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago

EV conversions of older models probably fills this tiny niche quite well. I had assumed the overly loud voices complaining about this "issue" were just the latest iteration of intelligent people inventing convoluted reasons to go along with their political tribe's insane policy preferences. Like if you're a Republican on HN you can't just openly deny climate change exists any more (though a few still try), you want plausible deniability that your intense love for nuclear power isn't just an excuse to spread outdated lies about renewables. Similarly you can loudly announce that you'll never buy an EV, and then when people put you in the "coal rolling idiot" bucket you can surprise them by revealing that it's actually a ridiculously niche concern about too much tech that you've invented to go along with your political peers in their hatred of EVs. And people reading then move you into a subtly different subsection of the anti-EV crank bucket in their mind.

jryb 2y ago
While political identity certainly plays some role, a BEV is still a major purchase and people will take other factors into account. Is it really inconceivable that someone would want a car like the ones they're used to, except with a different power source? Every time I look at electric cars there's always some insane choice, e.g. the brake lights don't turn on when regenerative braking is active, even though your car is rapidly decelerating. The touch screens are also a safety concern - you can't change the music or skip ahead on a podcast without taking your eyes off the road for a meaningful amount of time. The fact that you're paying well over the median price for a new car makes it even less appealing. FWIW I don't own a car and I'm not in a hurry to get one.

giantg2 2y ago

The biggest hurdle is cost. The batteries cost a lot and so they throw in a bunch of tech and other premium features to make the cost appealing to the larger market. The next biggest issue is regulation. Depending on jurisdiction, it's likely that things from backup cameras to autobraking and more are required or will be shortly. Even drowsy driver and drunk driver protections are already in laws/regs for future adoption.

runjake 2y ago

Because they wouldn't sell nor meet regulatory requirements in countries like the US. I myself dream of low-tech car, but then again, I do like CarPlay, adaptive AWD, radar, and lane assist a whole bunch. (I assume you're asking about the US, because there are low-tech options in many other countries.) If you want a low-tech car, your best bet is to buy an early 2000s model of something that is well-regarded and can continue to be maintained long term (eg. Toyota). There are a lot of Internet resources that cherry-pick these desirable models and years for you.

RecycledEle 2y ago

We need standards so that mid-sized companies can make parts that meet standards and other mid-sized companies can assemble those parts into cars. The battery bus should be 2 wires (+ and -) and automotive-grade Cat 6. The voltage on the 2 wires should vary between 200 V DC and 400 V DC as the batteries are charged and drained. Any kind of battery can be connected in parallel. You can connect NiCad, NiMH, Li-Ion, LiPo, and AGM batteries all in parallel provided you put the right number of cells in each battery module to get the correct voltage. You can not put 2 different chemistries of batteries in series. So everything on the battery bus should be connected in parallel. The Cat 6 should run a variant of CANbus tunneled through Ethernet. If a battery can not handle the voltage on the battery bus (for example because the bus is at 200 V, and the battery is charged to 400 V) then the battery should disconnect. This is easily accomplished with small DC motors driving screws, just like low-battery cut-offs do. Battery bays should be standard sizes. 18" x 30" x 6" would be good. That can fit under seats, under a truck's bed, and under a trunk or frunk. They can even fit under floorboards. Motors should be housed in modular, sealed units with gearboxes and motor controllers. There should be spaces to install motors on every axle or even on every wheel. The gearing inside the motor units should give an output that is about the speed we expect from a car tire going down the road. All batteries and motors should connect to the some parallel battery bus. If you want more range, add another battery. If you want AWD, add another motor or two. All drive components should be connected by CANbus. Replacing your accelerator pedal should be as easy as a few screws and an electrical connector. Brakes and steering still need mechanical linkages to comply with safety laws, for now. A standard battery bus would enable other cool things: 1. Any car could have a generator to make it a 2-stage hybrid. 2. RVs could use the same batteries and generators as electric cars. 3. Off-grid applications and grid-tie applications could use the same batteries as electric cars. This makes it even easier to tie car batteries into the power grid. 4. Because battery busses and battery bays are standard, a medium-sized company can build capacitor banks that drop in. 5. Power transfers between 2 batteries on the bus can work, coordinated by CANbus-over-Ethernet. If you are driving down a mountain, you can regeneratively brake into your capacitor bank, then slowly charge your batteries from that bank. 6. Grid-scale battery deployments can use the same batteries as cars. The marginal cost of making another 1 million batteries is a lot less if you already made 2 million of them. 7. Battery chargers that plug into wall power, power inverters, air compressors, and other devices can also be slotted into standard battery bays and interface into standard battery buses. This gives a lot more flexibility to a work truck than the built-in air compressor some brands like to include. Imagine a 2-stage diesel-electric medium-duty truck (that's the size of a UPS truck or a big Amazon delivery truck) that has a hydraulic compressor in a battery bay so it can lift or lower the truck and a lift gate on the rear end. 8. You could buy a cheap electric car with a single Li-Ion battery and a single motor on the front axle. Later, you could add 2 more batteries to almost triple the range and another motor on the rear axle. Not all motors have to deliver the same horsepower, so your little 85 horse-power commuter car could become a 300 horse-power AWD machine. More upgrades could turn it into a 700 horse-power muscle car. This would be the biggest selling point. Buying a stripped-down electric car would be an aspirational purchase. The buyer's goal would be to one day upgrade it to a long-range supercar. Cars could grow with buyers. A kid's first car could be upgrade to AWD when they realize it slides on snow and ice. After a wreck totals the car, the motors and batteries could be moved to a newer model. 9. Concerns over recycling batteries and motors go away if most cars use the same interfaces to the batteries and motors. Old electric cars can be parted out like old Chevys. There is never a reason for an old Chevy small-block V8 to go to waste; millions of cars can use them. Ditto standard electric batteries and motors. SAE and IEEE should coordinate to establish standards, then we should be able to swap out drive train parts as easily as we swap out wheels and tires on our cars today. I wonder if the free market will adopt such standards, or if it will take regulations to push big auto makers into standardizing battery buses, packs, and motors.

t312227 2y ago

imho. (!) indirect: because we live in "capitalism"? eg. companies are "in it" for the money / the profit!? * if i sell you a car, i want to sell you the most expensive car you are willing to buy, because that increases my profit. cars are products, which you buy once every xx years, not every week, not 2 or 3 at once etc. so as a company i have to "make out of this single sale" as much as possible in terms of money. i call this the "SUV effect": make everything just a little bit "bigger" with every iteration of the product to justify a price-hike ... accompanied by ads, which tell you, why you need this & that additional feature ... repeat!! ;)) just my 0.02€

kdot 2y ago

https://scoutmotors.com https://scoutmotors.com