10 ms·

85% of People Want Global Ban on Single-Use Plastics

183 points by sharpshadow 2y ago

cynicalsecurity 2y ago
I guess only with the exception of medical use.
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  Yes, that's how it's implemented in the EU directive at least.
- stronglikedan 2y ago
  Why can't they use reusable containers that can be sterilized just like their contents? Just asking. I don't support such a seeping ban, because I know the ramifications.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    How do you prove the sterile field hasn’t been broken? Also glass is a big hazard in a hospital… it will get dropped and shattered.
  - wannacboatmovie 2y ago
    We're not going back to the days of glass bottles for IV bags. The end.
  - OptionOfT 2y ago
    Sterilization doesn't solve all. Prions for example survive an autoclave.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
Is there a good substitute for cling wrap? I mostly store food in reusable containers. And I try to use foil as much as possible. But some things are irregularly shaped and need a tight seal, and I’ve struggled to find a good alternative.
- crooked-v 2y ago
  Slightly larger reusable containers? There are also plenty of varieties of reusable ziploc-style bag out there, including ones in jumbo sizes.
  - 0xEF 2y ago
    That and being a bit more conscious of our consumer choices. If you jave that much left over, try keeping a food journal for the sake of getting a better idea of how much we actually consume in a month, then adjust your purchasing weights and quantities. My wife and I did this about a year ago in effort to make some dietary changes, but it also happily resulted in less left-overs and slightly lower grocery expenses.
- haileys 2y ago
  vacuum containers
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    I have a vacuum sealer, but their bags are plastic. Is there an eco-friendly Food Saver bag that doesn’t require commercial composting?
    - nerdjon 2y ago
      I bought re-usable vacuum seal containers from Foodsaver. I hate the thing. It cannot keep a seal and will always slowly let air in, in a few days. I keep looking for alternatives since I vacuum seal a lot and I hate using a new plastic bag for each, but have yet to find a suitable alternative that doesn't defeat the entire purpose.
    - haileys 2y ago
      There are hard plastic containers, like regular reusable food containers, that have good seals and little vacuum pumps on the lid. You actuate the lid pump a bit and it removes enough air from the container to keep food for a bit longer. It's not magical, it won't keep food forever. But neither does cling wrap.
Rucadi 2y ago
The only exception is people that know the consequences on their every-day life.
- colordrops 2y ago
  What makes you say that? I support a ban and I totally understand that it will involve some pain until we adjust. Why would you believe others don't understand this?
  - Rucadi 2y ago
    People are already in power to ban single-use plastic, they can buy stuff that is more expensive or less convenient to get. This gives a signal to the market that if a lot of people does it, they should move in that direction to meet the demand. However, this is not what it's happening, and that's because people appreciate that something is cheaper thanks to single-use plastic of because they are not so interested in single-use plastic that they are willing to do an effort to go around it. Basically, what people reveal when in the everyday use is that they are fine with single-use plastic, and if they say otherwise is to signal some kind of virtue because they decide not to put effort into it.
    - mjamesaustin 2y ago
      People bought lead paint and asbestos in droves too before those were banned. Just because something is cheap and accessible doesn't mean people understand how it impacts their lives. With studies coming out routinely showing the dramatic damage microplastics are causing to our environment and even inside our own bodies, it's only a matter of time before we come to our senses and stop it.
      - kragen 2y ago
        those studies mostly show the dramatic presence of microplastics rather than dramatic damage, which is still mostly speculative. most of the microplastics inside our own bodies come from washing synthetic clothes rather than from single-use plastics
ravenstine 2y ago
Just because people say that doesn't mean they'll actually want it in practice. As well, asking people how important they think something is may not equate to their support for sweeping legislation.
- triyambakam 2y ago
  See e.g. Brexit
- conductr 2y ago
  My city banned bags once and had to immediately figure out how to unban bags because it caused outrage. They talked about it for 2 years and people supported it. Until the day it took effect that is.
  - zeeveener 2y ago
    My city talked about banning "Single Use Items" from drive thrus and such, but what they failed to communicate was this also meant "Paper Bags" like what McDonalds would hand you out the window. It was _that_ part which sparked outrage. The overly-simplistic definition of "Single Use" items included items which are _actually_ recyclable like paper (or compostable if covered in food-stuff). They undid the ban "for re-evaluation"
SllX 2y ago
I’m someone that wouldn’t mind seeing single use plastics go the way of the dodo bird but 1) you should never trust issue polling even within a single country and 2) given that, I would trust it even less when the polling is “global”.
- ganzuul 2y ago
  I see these studies as a first step in a Bayesian inference. Trust comes with more evidence but you have to start somewhere. Edit: Actually this is the third step. From the source: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2024-05/Ipsos%20report%20-%20Single-use%20plastics.pdf https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/...
  - SllX 2y ago
    Let me clarify: you cannot make useful judgements on the basis of an issue poll alone. The information they obscure is just as important as the information they purport to present. This is why we have legislators who in their offices actually investigate and discuss issues of lawmaking with their base, and can even contextualize it within a framework of privileged or classified information they may have access to rather than take an issue poll at face value that says “most of <nation’s population> support X on issue Y” and simply vote that way.
AlexandrB 2y ago
I'll admit I was a little skeptical of plastic bag bans here in Canada, but it's had a noticeable effect on how much random garbage ends up stuck in hedges and fences where I live. Adapting to it wasn't too bad and good reusable bags are a lot more ergonomic and don't tear as easily when carrying heavy loads.
- blackle 2y ago
  I fully agree, however if you're the kind of person who orders groceries, then what ends up happening is that you start collecting reusable bags that you have no way of reusing. I hope that someone starts some kind of "reusable bag recycling" system so I can give the scores of bags I have to a good home
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    The only grocery delivery service I've used let you return bags the next time they drop food off. I'm not sure how many of them get reused though.
  - bagels 2y ago
    It's really a farce. The old bags were really, really thin. Now, they're reuseable, and so they have to be much thicker, but they're still only used once. This just means that we're making more plastic waste.
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    - LeifCarrotson 2y ago
      I don't know what the average number of uses for a reusable bag is, but it's certainly not one. We've got about a half dozen, including a few freezer bags that do most of the work, plus a few that have been repurposed as the "beach activities bag" and "kid's soccer stuff bag" and so on. The ones used for groceries have been used at least once a week for going on four years. The old bags also averaged slightly over one use, but the mandatory "bag of bags" in the pantry got depleted much more slowly than it filled. If someone is throwing their reusable bags in the landfill and getting new ones every time, they're using it wrong...which I admit isn't entirely their fault at this societal scale, but let's at least agree it's the expected way to use the tool.
Skytram 2y ago
Yes yes instead of single use bags at the store I now get more durable plastic bags that I throw away after using once. Well done.
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  Why don't you use reusable bags? I have a couple that fold up and go in my back pocket.
  - wannacboatmovie 2y ago
    That's utterly ridiculous and highly inconvenient for nearly everyone that isn't proselytizing about reusable sacks or needs to purchase more than a few items. What works for dedicated urbanists doesn't fly for the other 85% of the population. Reusable bags are nearly universally unsanitary. People let their cats play in them, never wash them, then place them on the same conveyor belt where you put your vegetables.
    - worik 2y ago
      > Because that's utterly ridiculous and highly inconvenient for nearly everyone that isn't proselytizing about reusable sacks No Here in Aotearoa they are completely normal > Reusable bags are nearly universally unsanitary...place them on the same conveyor belt where you put your vegetables. Golly. Given the habits of growers you really should wash your vegetables before you use them. Pesticides
      - AlexandrB 2y ago
        Not just growers, I don't think grocery store employees are washing their hands religiously when they're putting this stuff out.
        wannacboatmovie 2y ago
        These days I often see the grocers using gloves when stocking shelves.
lykahb 2y ago
A ban like that sounds good. But what would replace those plastics? For the take-out food containers a common alternative is PFAS-treated paper. Is it much better for the health environment?
- Carrok 2y ago
  Local restaurants here have started using DeliveryZero which is a reusable container program, you just take the containers back to a drop point. That and plenty of places use non-PFAS-treated thicker paperboard. Those are also great in my experience.
  - ars 2y ago
    > you just take the containers back to a drop point. If someone drives to drop off the container they have uses way more resources than they would just using a disposable. I suspect this idea is just greenwashing. > thicker paperboard Which again uses more resources, and emits more CO2, than plastic.
    - Carrok 2y ago
      You're assuming I'm driving it back to the drop point as a dedicated trip. A: I typically keep the containers until I order next time, you have a month to drop them off. So just drop them off when you're picking up your food. B: The drop off point is a short walk away, so you could just, you know, walk. I'm not worried about resources or emissions here, I'm more concerned about trash in the rivers/oceans, and microplastics. There are more metrics to account for than you are allowing for.
      - ars 2y ago
        > I typically keep the containers until I order next time Don't them smell? If you wash them by hand you end up using more resources than if you had disposable. If you put them in a dishwasher then, I guess that would work, but seems like a lot of effort for takeout. > I'm more concerned about trash in the rivers/oceans, and microplastics Are you dumping things in the street? I suspect you are not. River/Ocean trash is a huge problem, and is not being caused in the US or Canada.
HL33tibCe7 2y ago
Sure, until they realise how much this would cost, then you’ll rather quickly see that number go down
emiliobumachar 2y ago
Crap. Most of the substitutes have a bigger ecological footprint, even if you don't care at all about cost and comfort. Those reusable shopping bags need to be actually reused, several dozen if not hundreds of times, to be ecological. How many times have you used your last one?
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  > How many times have you used your last one? Every shopping trip for 4 years now. It tore, but my partner was able to patch it since it's made of pretty good quality fabric.
  - drivebyhooting 2y ago
    Have you smelled them? Do you wash them?
    - AlexandrB 2y ago
      Yes and yes. It's fabric - you just stick it in the washing machine.
    - abdullahkhalids 2y ago
      I use reusable bags for many years as well, and I wash them every so often. I of course, wash all the produce before using anyway, so a little bit of dirtiness of the bag is negligible.
- Carrok 2y ago
  This argument is so absurd. I have reused my reusable bags more times than I can possibly count. It's really not hard or unrealistic. How does everyone else seem to have such a hard time with this?
  - doug_durham 2y ago
    To pile on here. I reuse my reusable bags hundreds if not thousands of times. I purchased a set of high quality bags that stuff into a small bag. They are better in all ways than any other bags I've used. The ergonomics are excellent.
Culonavirus 2y ago
> World Wildlife Fund and Greenpeace Ah yes, the open-minded beacons of impartiality. Next ask college lefties about rivers and seas. Ahem.
automatoney 2y ago
Oh wow, I haven't heard of theis "plastic pollution treaty" it sounds super promising! I think one of the things that makes this issue so popular is just how obvious it is to see plastic trash all over the place. Climate change and carbon emissions can be a bit abstract, but plastic pollution is everywhere, and extremely visible.
robxorb 2y ago
How do they choose people for these surveys? And can 24k people from 32 countries (so, 750 in each) be representative of 8 billion in 200+ countries? I know only a minority locally who could support a plastics ban, due to low awareness. Certainly a guesstimate in other countries I can think of who are likely responsible for high plastics pollution, would be far lower than 8 or 9 out of every 10 people, as it's a contributor as to why the issue exists in those places, surely?
- verteu 2y ago
  > can 24k people from 32 countries (so, 750 in each) be representative of 8 billion in 200+ countries? Yes, assuming they are sampled randomly. If they aren't, a bigger sample size won't help anyways: https://sample-size.net/confidence-interval-proportion/ https://sample-size.net/confidence-interval-proportion/
- rvnx 2y ago
  https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2024-05/Ipsos%20report%20-%20Single-use%20plastics.pdf https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/... "These are the results of a survey conducted by Ipsos on its Global Advisor online platform [...] they are more urban, more educated, and/or more affluent than the general population. The survey results should be viewed as reflecting the views of the more “connected” segment of their population" So basically it's people who have internet and accepted to be paid to answer surveys. Like a Twitter poll. It's nowhere meant to be representative of the population.
com2kid 2y ago
Doing this will involve a dramatic reshaping of how society works. All of the food packaging that is plastic needs to go away. This would entail large shifts in supply chains, how we buy groceries, and economics of scale for certain goods. We know it is possible (glass bottles were the norm even just 30 years ago), but doing that transition now will be huge. Then there are all the plastic bags that food comes in. From cookie sleeves to protein bars, all those plastics need to go away. How products are made shelf stable will need to change, which means flavors will change, and some products may no longer be viable. I hope we make the change as a society, but it will be absurdly complicated to do. Edit: I'd love if the restaurant industry had standardized reusable takeout container sizes that could be washed and handed back to a restaurant for (sterilization and then) reuse! It would not only improve the quality of takeout food (better insulation), but be more environmentally friendly.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > All of the food packaging that is plastic needs to go away Most of it can be swapped to bioplastics with minimal loss of utility.
  - com2kid 2y ago
    Only if they are 100% bioplastics, and 100% biodegradable in nature, not just in an industrial facility, or else you can end up with the same microplastics pollution problem. Although different chemicals are likely to have dramatic different impacts on the environment, hopefully by now we've learned that "dumping a bunch of microparticles into the environment and hoping everything is OK" is a bad way to go about things.
htk 2y ago
"Ban unnecessary single-use plastic products most likely to become plastic pollution, e.g. shopping bags, cutlery, cups & plates" Such a loaded question just weakens the point. That's why it's hard to take these efforts seriously.
- ars 2y ago
  Yah, I'd like to see the actual survey wording. All the weasel words they put in there make it seem kind of fake.
- gleenn 2y ago
  I kind of agree. I feel like the word "unnecessary" in that sentence guts it. Of course we should ban unnecessary and wasteful things. If the question was "should we ban plastic bags completely in favor of re-usable ones" might get a very different answer. I would definitely say yes to the first question but I also sometimes forget to bring my reusable bags to the store and then definitely always get the disposable ones if it's more items than I can carry in my hands.
  - kragen 2y ago
    > Of course we should ban unnecessary and wasteful things i strongly disagree with this; in almost all cases, the choice of what is unnecessary and wasteful should rest with the individual person most affected by it, not some kind of political authority or social consensus. even when it's legitimately a question of public policy—alcohol, for example, an addictive drug that causes massive amounts of crime and something like 5% of the world's human deaths—pigovian taxes are far preferable to outright bans. alcohol is a useful cleaning fluid, for example, and an effective antidote to ethylene glycol poisoning (though in rich countries safer antidotes are now available) kim jong un has banned unnecessary and wasteful hairstyles, which is the road down which 'of course we should ban unnecessary and wasteful things' generally leads i find it rather horrifying how casually people promote totalitarian ideologies like this nowadays
    - gleenn 2y ago
      All I'm saying is the word "unnecessary" in that question clearly is a "weasel word" because, just like you're saying, it's subjective and also greatly weakens the statement. Usually unnecessary things with negative externalities are easy for people to say "sure let's get rid of that, it's not providing value". I think you're caveating something which only furthers that sentiment.
wannacboatmovie 2y ago
Those numbers are so highly skewed it seems improbable.
nerdjon 2y ago
I would love for it to happen since if it were to finally just happen maybe enough money will be pumped into figuring out the alternatives. But it would need to be done with a hard cutoff date but far enough for those things to be figured out. There are still some areas that we seem to not quite have an alternative. Or the environmental impact of the alternative is not quite as rosy as it appears.
lowkey_ 2y ago
I was skeptical of whether it was representative of 85% of the global population, or just the first-world. I've often thought (and heard that) environmental concerns are secondary to economic, and that people in less prosperous countries don't care as much about environmental concerns as people in first-world countries who are secure in most areas of their lives. Surprisingly, this data says the opposite! Sample size was: North America: 2000, Central & South America: 3500, Europe: 8000, Africa: 3000, APAC: 7700, On banning unnecessary single-use plastics being 'important': Australia: 87%, South Korea: 86%, Mexico: 94%, Uganda: 93%, This may be obvious to some, but I really had the opposite notion until seeing this data.
- dumbo-octopus 2y ago
  The response rate is so low as to be entirely meaningless. If you're content with sampling only 0.000001% of the population, you can get any results you want by simply selecting for the people who care the most by taking a bunch of time to lecture the individual if they seem like they'd vote the other way (oh no, you have to leave? but we didn't even have time to submit your vote yet... :( ), and wording the question in such a way to make the answer you want be the only reasonable response.
  - orhmeh09 2y ago
    What do you think is a good sample size? How would you arrive at one?
    - aunty_helen 2y ago
      There isn’t one. Some things are not measurable by this standard and the stats relatively meaningless. 3000 people from a whole continent? Cmon
      - kragen 2y ago
        please see the introduction to statistical methods linked above at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40590633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40590633
beefnugs 2y ago
What a load of shit, paper straws cant even get through a single drink. Come up with some kind of useful alternative before just doing random reactionary dumb things
- eitally 2y ago
  You know what's the worst -- paper boba straws, especially for kids.
- watermelon0 2y ago
  Reusable metal straws do exist. They don't solve the problem for takeaway, but I assume straws are the least to worry there.
- bsza 2y ago
  Straws are a negligible [0] part of plastic waste, and the idea they aren't stems from research by a 9-year-old child [1]. We don't have to replace all single-use plastic, just those that matter. [0] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/news-plastic-drinking-straw-history-ban https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/news-... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-ban-fact-check-nyt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-b...
bagels 2y ago
How does this work, practically, at the grocery store? Many foods are sold in a disposable plastic wrapper. Cereal, meat, frozen foods, etc. What is the alternative? We bring a bunch of tupperware and everything is sold in bulk?
- kragen 2y ago
  they could sell you a glass jar with the food in it; in rich countries the extra cost of the disposable single-use glass wouldn't be significant to most consumers, although it would produce more pollution, hazard, and waste than the plastic alternatives. we've had returnable coke bottles since they started bottling coke
Aunche 2y ago
It's not sexy, but the number one way to reduce plastic pollution is to build landfills and proper waste management systems in developing countries. Plastic bans are largely performative and often counterproductive. Instead of bringing their own bags, a lot of shoppers just treat the "reuseable" bags the they buy a the supermarket as disposable. https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2024/01/22/new-jersey-bag-ban-followed-by-increased-use-of-plastic/?sh=44a368b66a85 https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2024/01/22/new-j... https://www.latimes.com/environment/plastic-bag-ban-waste-404-123#:~:text=In%202014%2C%20when%20the%20ban,per%20pound%20has%20gone%20up https://www.latimes.com/environment/plastic-bag-ban-waste-40....
- MattGaiser 2y ago
  I’m curious what bags would need to cost to change that behaviour, as for all the complaining about inflation, many clearly don’t miss 3-4% a shop buying cloth bags here.
  - londons_explore 2y ago
    I think bags would have to cost $10-$20 before the most people started remembering to bring one to the shop. People simply don't think far enough ahead to plan to take a bag to the shop, and prefer to 'pay for convenience'. Plenty of people pay $30 to avoid having to turn their oven on to cook something.
  - graeme 2y ago
    I bring a bookbag to stores, but if I forget one I buy a "reuseable" bag and then get rid of it. If you need a bag you need a bag. Before plastic, stores had paper bags. Some stores offer these now but many don't. I find it surprising. They're certainly less useful than plastic bags but they're plenty useful. you can walk with 2-3 in your arms, they hold a good amount of things, and they're recyclable. And then if you need one with handles you can get one of the paid bags stores have.
- quinncom 2y ago
  Mexico City implemented a ban on single-use plastics on January 1, 2021, which has been almost completely ignored except outside of corporate chains such as Walmart, where indeed many people just buy the recyclable bags.
legitster 2y ago
I'm actually pretty curious how they conducted the survey - you can't usually get 80% of people on a phone to admit they use the bathroom, let alone agree with a complex policy proposal. The attached report is high on charts but low on details.
- dinkleberg 2y ago
  Yeah I was hoping to see some more details on that. I'm in favor of a ban like this, but as with every big move like this, there are negative consequences that come with it (everything has trade offs). I am very curious how they framed the question to get such a high percentage of agreement. Surely this ban would result, at least in the short term, in higher prices for a lot of goods.
ninetyninenine 2y ago
I think pretty much everyone wants this yet we still use these plastics… we want to end global warming yet we still drive cars. We care but to what degree do we actually care? Not much. There’s huge business interest pushing the usage of environmentally damaging products forward because it generates money. This against consumer laziness, progress will be slow
- lunarboy 2y ago
  Yeah positive incentive and/or negative deterrent is just not strong enough for people to act on it over the current convenience. If "reusable" bags cost $10 at the store, but you get it refunded if you bring your own, I bet people won't forget to bring their own. The laws just arent strong enough
- textninja 2y ago
  > There’s huge business interest pushing the usage of environmentally damaging products forward because it generates money. The converse (pushing green products) is also true so we have to consider whether the environmental impact is as big as is claimed, whether it's worth it even if it is (single issue reductivism is a dangerous way to craft policy), or whether banal financial and power incentives are the true moving force behind the lobbied solution.
contingencies 2y ago
The FMCG companies will oppose it and have deep pockets. I have spent nearly ten years developing robotics to bring complex food production to the edge so that perishable logistics can occur instead of distributing non-fresh products in single use plastics. When consumers shift to better product, change will occur.
skrebbel 2y ago
Can anyone explain to me how this works in practice? Eg if i now buy meat or cheese or pre-cut vegetables or bread at the supermarket, it’s in plastic packaging. What do legislators propose we replace that by? I understand (and use) reusable shopping bags but keeping sliced ham fresh sounds less practical. For clarity, I’m not skeptical, I’m all for the strictest plastic ban that’s remotely practical. But I don’t get how it would work. Do we all take tupperware into the butchers?
- L-four 2y ago
  Which ever is more profitable.
- MSFT_Edging 2y ago
  Butchers used to use wax paper. Many still do. A wax paper without a petroleum based coating can compost.
- ganzuul 2y ago
  Glass jars and tin cans were the old solution. Perhaps some modern deep eutectic chemistry can improve on the old energy economy of glass.
  - kragen 2y ago
    deep eutectic systems seem a lot more likely to help with synthesizing organic plastics than with synthesizing glass
- lokar 2y ago
  People bought all of these things before plastics. When I get meat it tends to come wrapped in (waxed?) paper.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    >People bought all of these things before plastics. Yes, and that was dangerous and inconvenient.
- 2y ago
L-four 2y ago
If we could get the total cost of product disposal built into the checkout price. I think single use plastics would solve it's self along with a litany of other garbage disposal problems.
- bagels 2y ago
  What would you estimate the cost to be? In my locale, bags are charged at $0.25 each.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  While I agree in principle, I don't think this quite solves it. For example, disposable bags are extremely cheap to dispose of - they compress well and would take up minimal landfill space. The problem is how many of them "escape" between the initial purchase and getting to the landfill. How do you include that in the cost?
  - L-four 2y ago
    Ideally this would be factored in and included in the cost of disposable. E.G. the cost of employing litter collection and disposal. The cost needs to be placed on the producers so they have incentive to solve these problems. Many plastic containers and recycling processes could be standardized but currently there's no reason to do.
textninja 2y ago
I’m taking this with a grain of salt because 85% of people adopting such a hardline environmentalist stance defies reason. I think the poll’s design and authors probably had something to do with it. Context matters!
- legitster 2y ago
  Kind of like that "4 out of 5 dentists" claim from back in the day - it involved some very heavy editorializing: https://nowiknow.com/who-was-the-fifth-dentist-that-didnt-recommend-trident/ https://nowiknow.com/who-was-the-fifth-dentist-that-didnt-re...
jjcm 2y ago
I don't want a ban, I want a tax on them. There's a strong use for single use plastics - medical goods being one of the important ones that I highly suspect people don't want a ban of. They define these as "necessary" versus "unnecessary" in their poll (ie the 85% figure is specifically for "ban unnecessary single-use plastic products, e.g., shopping bags, cutlery, cups & plates"). Things get murky really quickly when we bucket items. Are single use water bottles bad? Probably. Are all plastic liquid containers bad? Almost certainly not, you wouldn't want to store a corrosive acid that eats through glass in a glass bottle. So either the option is create a giant database of what is/isn't single use, which then can be gamed in its own way, or simply tax all single-use plastics such that necessary cases still leverage them, but it quickly doesn't become cost-effective for the main offending category of them.
- ganzuul 2y ago
  The tax might not have to be monetary. Putting geolocation QR codes on stuff could help mitigate the super-polluters by taxing perception.
- cogman10 2y ago
  > Are all plastic liquid containers bad? Almost certainly not, you wouldn't want to store a corrosive acid that eats through glass in a glass bottle. I'd argue that most, especially containers in regard to food item, are. You don't have to have a database to figure this out, you can start simple by just banning the use of single use plastic with regards to food. There aren't many (any?) items that are highly corrosive and intended for human consumption. Plastics in medicine could wait for another round of legislation. Single use plastics used for shipping consumer goods and food are the 80% of plastic production problem.
  - Izkata 2y ago
    > There aren't many (any?) items that are highly corrosive and intended for human consumption. Pop cans have a plastic liner so it doesn't eat through the metal.
- textninja 2y ago
DataDive 2y ago
I always use my reusable bags, On the other hand, I found that sometimes I run out of plastic bags when I need them at home. In some situations, a plastic bag is super useful: store a wet paintbrush overnight, wrap something that needs to retain moisture, lock up some smelly stuff, etc. In those cases, I go to a store that still has plastic bags, then buy some stuff there and generously pack them into plastic bags.
H1Supreme 2y ago
64% of the people surveyed in the US "agree" or "strongly agree". Maybe it's because I spend most of my time in less affluent parts of the country, but I almost never see people bringing their own bags to the grocery store. Checkout clerks usually seem surprised when I pull out my canvas bags.
primitivesuave 2y ago
When I was in New Zealand, they had a single standard reusable metal cup for all their coffee shops. That is, you can pay to refill the cup, and if the cup is dirty, any coffee shop will exchange it with a clean one for free. Consumers pay a small deposit for the cup, and can get the deposit back by returning it. Unfortunately, common-sense solutions like this one require tremendous political coordination to even get started. In most countries, environmentalism is far less creative - levy new taxes to change consumer behavior (e.g. single-use bags), or ban something entirely without consideration toward the alternatives (e.g. paper vs plastic straws).
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago
Fuck that. Journalists had to go to the far east to film plastic laden rivers in order to shape public opinion. It isn't our problem. Now if you're going to accuse us of just exporting our waste then that might be true. In that case we should stop the recycling scam and just burn it like we do with all other oil.
peetle 2y ago
Yes, but who wants to pay more for them? It's very hard to beat single use plastic bags for environmental impact: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/grocery-bag-environmental-impact https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/grocery-bag-environmental...
paul7986 2y ago
Weren't plastics and the recycling movement supposed to be good for the environment?
deleted 2y ago
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blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I am OK with plastic bans but they need to be implemented smartly. Near me, bans on single use plastic bags have resulted in all the stores handing out extra thick plastic bags that are treated as single use by everyone anyways. So I feel like it’s made the problem worse.
Gys 2y ago
Those people clearly vote differently, otherwise this (and other problems like this climate thing...) would have been solved a long time ago. Maybe they forgot to also ask 'what if it will cost you some money in the process or diminish your convenience'.
disambiguation 2y ago
I thought the majority of ocean plastic pollution was fishing nets? is everyone on the same page about what "single-use" plastic means here?
doug_durham 2y ago
You don't need to wait for a ban. There is a company that sells wonderful cherry tomatoes. They sell them in an elaborate non-reusable plastic container. It keeps the product from being damaged and it presents the product well. However I cannot justify throwing a large plastic container in the landfill so I can have a dozen cherry tomatoes. So I don't purchase them anymore. I wrote to the company letting them know the situation (I haven't heard back). We can make choices in our day-to-day lives to reduce plastic. Let the levers of the market pressure producers.
c22 2y ago
If this is true then is a ban even necessary? Or are just 15% of the people responsible for all single-usage of plastic?
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
Don't need a survey for that. Just go to the nearest supermarket, stand near the cash register, and count how many people buy plastic bags, and divide by how many bring their own multiple-use bag. You will get the true picture, which I suspect is 10:1 in favor of single-use plastics.
- vel0city 2y ago
  The last time I was in a place that had a disposable shopping bag ban for a while, I was the only one seemingly grabbing some of the bags for sale as I was a visitor and did not have any of my own bags yet. I didn't see a single other person who actually lived there buy any bags on any of the trips I took to the grocery.
g9yuayon 2y ago
The All-In podcast mentioned research on the concentration of micro plastic particles in human body. I was wondering if banning single-use plastics can somehow reduce that concentration as well.
SergeAx 2y ago
Oh, that's an awesome result! I wonder how many of these people want to pay 20-50% more for their goods, repackaged?
Ekaros 2y ago
I wonder if all of these 85% people simply already refuse any single use plastic item. And never use such? Like no more plastic bags for anything, or not single plastic utensil. Or no single plastic cup. No single use medical devices like syringes.

183 points by sharpshadow 2y ago

cynicalsecurity 2y ago

I guess only with the exception of medical use.

AlecSchueler 2y ago
Yes, that's how it's implemented in the EU directive at least.
stronglikedan 2y ago
Why can't they use reusable containers that can be sterilized just like their contents? Just asking. I don't support such a seeping ban, because I know the ramifications.
- TylerE 2y ago
  How do you prove the sterile field hasn’t been broken? Also glass is a big hazard in a hospital… it will get dropped and shattered.
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  We're not going back to the days of glass bottles for IV bags. The end.
- OptionOfT 2y ago
  Sterilization doesn't solve all. Prions for example survive an autoclave.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

Is there a good substitute for cling wrap? I mostly store food in reusable containers. And I try to use foil as much as possible. But some things are irregularly shaped and need a tight seal, and I’ve struggled to find a good alternative.

crooked-v 2y ago
Slightly larger reusable containers? There are also plenty of varieties of reusable ziploc-style bag out there, including ones in jumbo sizes.
- 0xEF 2y ago
  That and being a bit more conscious of our consumer choices. If you jave that much left over, try keeping a food journal for the sake of getting a better idea of how much we actually consume in a month, then adjust your purchasing weights and quantities. My wife and I did this about a year ago in effort to make some dietary changes, but it also happily resulted in less left-overs and slightly lower grocery expenses.
haileys 2y ago
vacuum containers
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  I have a vacuum sealer, but their bags are plastic. Is there an eco-friendly Food Saver bag that doesn’t require commercial composting?
  - nerdjon 2y ago
    I bought re-usable vacuum seal containers from Foodsaver. I hate the thing. It cannot keep a seal and will always slowly let air in, in a few days. I keep looking for alternatives since I vacuum seal a lot and I hate using a new plastic bag for each, but have yet to find a suitable alternative that doesn't defeat the entire purpose.
  - haileys 2y ago
    There are hard plastic containers, like regular reusable food containers, that have good seals and little vacuum pumps on the lid. You actuate the lid pump a bit and it removes enough air from the container to keep food for a bit longer. It's not magical, it won't keep food forever. But neither does cling wrap.

Rucadi 2y ago

The only exception is people that know the consequences on their every-day life.

colordrops 2y ago
What makes you say that? I support a ban and I totally understand that it will involve some pain until we adjust. Why would you believe others don't understand this?
- Rucadi 2y ago
  People are already in power to ban single-use plastic, they can buy stuff that is more expensive or less convenient to get. This gives a signal to the market that if a lot of people does it, they should move in that direction to meet the demand. However, this is not what it's happening, and that's because people appreciate that something is cheaper thanks to single-use plastic of because they are not so interested in single-use plastic that they are willing to do an effort to go around it. Basically, what people reveal when in the everyday use is that they are fine with single-use plastic, and if they say otherwise is to signal some kind of virtue because they decide not to put effort into it.
  - mjamesaustin 2y ago
    People bought lead paint and asbestos in droves too before those were banned. Just because something is cheap and accessible doesn't mean people understand how it impacts their lives. With studies coming out routinely showing the dramatic damage microplastics are causing to our environment and even inside our own bodies, it's only a matter of time before we come to our senses and stop it.
    - kragen 2y ago
      those studies mostly show the dramatic presence of microplastics rather than dramatic damage, which is still mostly speculative. most of the microplastics inside our own bodies come from washing synthetic clothes rather than from single-use plastics

ravenstine 2y ago

Just because people say that doesn't mean they'll actually want it in practice. As well, asking people how important they think something is may not equate to their support for sweeping legislation.

triyambakam 2y ago
See e.g. Brexit
conductr 2y ago
My city banned bags once and had to immediately figure out how to unban bags because it caused outrage. They talked about it for 2 years and people supported it. Until the day it took effect that is.
- zeeveener 2y ago
  My city talked about banning "Single Use Items" from drive thrus and such, but what they failed to communicate was this also meant "Paper Bags" like what McDonalds would hand you out the window. It was _that_ part which sparked outrage. The overly-simplistic definition of "Single Use" items included items which are _actually_ recyclable like paper (or compostable if covered in food-stuff). They undid the ban "for re-evaluation"

SllX 2y ago

I’m someone that wouldn’t mind seeing single use plastics go the way of the dodo bird but 1) you should never trust issue polling even within a single country and 2) given that, I would trust it even less when the polling is “global”.

ganzuul 2y ago
I see these studies as a first step in a Bayesian inference. Trust comes with more evidence but you have to start somewhere. Edit: Actually this is the third step. From the source: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2024-05/Ipsos%20report%20-%20Single-use%20plastics.pdf https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/...
- SllX 2y ago
  Let me clarify: you cannot make useful judgements on the basis of an issue poll alone. The information they obscure is just as important as the information they purport to present. This is why we have legislators who in their offices actually investigate and discuss issues of lawmaking with their base, and can even contextualize it within a framework of privileged or classified information they may have access to rather than take an issue poll at face value that says “most of <nation’s population> support X on issue Y” and simply vote that way.

AlexandrB 2y ago

I'll admit I was a little skeptical of plastic bag bans here in Canada, but it's had a noticeable effect on how much random garbage ends up stuck in hedges and fences where I live. Adapting to it wasn't too bad and good reusable bags are a lot more ergonomic and don't tear as easily when carrying heavy loads.

blackle 2y ago
I fully agree, however if you're the kind of person who orders groceries, then what ends up happening is that you start collecting reusable bags that you have no way of reusing. I hope that someone starts some kind of "reusable bag recycling" system so I can give the scores of bags I have to a good home
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  The only grocery delivery service I've used let you return bags the next time they drop food off. I'm not sure how many of them get reused though.
- bagels 2y ago
  It's really a farce. The old bags were really, really thin. Now, they're reuseable, and so they have to be much thicker, but they're still only used once. This just means that we're making more plastic waste.
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  - LeifCarrotson 2y ago
    I don't know what the average number of uses for a reusable bag is, but it's certainly not one. We've got about a half dozen, including a few freezer bags that do most of the work, plus a few that have been repurposed as the "beach activities bag" and "kid's soccer stuff bag" and so on. The ones used for groceries have been used at least once a week for going on four years. The old bags also averaged slightly over one use, but the mandatory "bag of bags" in the pantry got depleted much more slowly than it filled. If someone is throwing their reusable bags in the landfill and getting new ones every time, they're using it wrong...which I admit isn't entirely their fault at this societal scale, but let's at least agree it's the expected way to use the tool.

Skytram 2y ago

Yes yes instead of single use bags at the store I now get more durable plastic bags that I throw away after using once. Well done.

AlecSchueler 2y ago
Why don't you use reusable bags? I have a couple that fold up and go in my back pocket.
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  That's utterly ridiculous and highly inconvenient for nearly everyone that isn't proselytizing about reusable sacks or needs to purchase more than a few items. What works for dedicated urbanists doesn't fly for the other 85% of the population. Reusable bags are nearly universally unsanitary. People let their cats play in them, never wash them, then place them on the same conveyor belt where you put your vegetables.
  - worik 2y ago
    > Because that's utterly ridiculous and highly inconvenient for nearly everyone that isn't proselytizing about reusable sacks No Here in Aotearoa they are completely normal > Reusable bags are nearly universally unsanitary...place them on the same conveyor belt where you put your vegetables. Golly. Given the habits of growers you really should wash your vegetables before you use them. Pesticides
    - AlexandrB 2y ago
      Not just growers, I don't think grocery store employees are washing their hands religiously when they're putting this stuff out.
      - wannacboatmovie 2y ago
        These days I often see the grocers using gloves when stocking shelves.

lykahb 2y ago

A ban like that sounds good. But what would replace those plastics? For the take-out food containers a common alternative is PFAS-treated paper. Is it much better for the health environment?

Carrok 2y ago
Local restaurants here have started using DeliveryZero which is a reusable container program, you just take the containers back to a drop point. That and plenty of places use non-PFAS-treated thicker paperboard. Those are also great in my experience.
- ars 2y ago
  > you just take the containers back to a drop point. If someone drives to drop off the container they have uses way more resources than they would just using a disposable. I suspect this idea is just greenwashing. > thicker paperboard Which again uses more resources, and emits more CO2, than plastic.
  - Carrok 2y ago
    You're assuming I'm driving it back to the drop point as a dedicated trip. A: I typically keep the containers until I order next time, you have a month to drop them off. So just drop them off when you're picking up your food. B: The drop off point is a short walk away, so you could just, you know, walk. I'm not worried about resources or emissions here, I'm more concerned about trash in the rivers/oceans, and microplastics. There are more metrics to account for than you are allowing for.
    - ars 2y ago
      > I typically keep the containers until I order next time Don't them smell? If you wash them by hand you end up using more resources than if you had disposable. If you put them in a dishwasher then, I guess that would work, but seems like a lot of effort for takeout. > I'm more concerned about trash in the rivers/oceans, and microplastics Are you dumping things in the street? I suspect you are not. River/Ocean trash is a huge problem, and is not being caused in the US or Canada.

HL33tibCe7 2y ago

Sure, until they realise how much this would cost, then you’ll rather quickly see that number go down

emiliobumachar 2y ago

Crap. Most of the substitutes have a bigger ecological footprint, even if you don't care at all about cost and comfort. Those reusable shopping bags need to be actually reused, several dozen if not hundreds of times, to be ecological. How many times have you used your last one?

AlexandrB 2y ago
> How many times have you used your last one? Every shopping trip for 4 years now. It tore, but my partner was able to patch it since it's made of pretty good quality fabric.
- drivebyhooting 2y ago
  Have you smelled them? Do you wash them?
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    Yes and yes. It's fabric - you just stick it in the washing machine.
  - abdullahkhalids 2y ago
    I use reusable bags for many years as well, and I wash them every so often. I of course, wash all the produce before using anyway, so a little bit of dirtiness of the bag is negligible.
Carrok 2y ago
This argument is so absurd. I have reused my reusable bags more times than I can possibly count. It's really not hard or unrealistic. How does everyone else seem to have such a hard time with this?
- doug_durham 2y ago
  To pile on here. I reuse my reusable bags hundreds if not thousands of times. I purchased a set of high quality bags that stuff into a small bag. They are better in all ways than any other bags I've used. The ergonomics are excellent.

Culonavirus 2y ago

> World Wildlife Fund and Greenpeace Ah yes, the open-minded beacons of impartiality. Next ask college lefties about rivers and seas. Ahem.

automatoney 2y ago

Oh wow, I haven't heard of theis "plastic pollution treaty" it sounds super promising! I think one of the things that makes this issue so popular is just how obvious it is to see plastic trash all over the place. Climate change and carbon emissions can be a bit abstract, but plastic pollution is everywhere, and extremely visible.

robxorb 2y ago

How do they choose people for these surveys? And can 24k people from 32 countries (so, 750 in each) be representative of 8 billion in 200+ countries? I know only a minority locally who could support a plastics ban, due to low awareness. Certainly a guesstimate in other countries I can think of who are likely responsible for high plastics pollution, would be far lower than 8 or 9 out of every 10 people, as it's a contributor as to why the issue exists in those places, surely?

verteu 2y ago
> can 24k people from 32 countries (so, 750 in each) be representative of 8 billion in 200+ countries? Yes, assuming they are sampled randomly. If they aren't, a bigger sample size won't help anyways: https://sample-size.net/confidence-interval-proportion/ https://sample-size.net/confidence-interval-proportion/
rvnx 2y ago
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2024-05/Ipsos%20report%20-%20Single-use%20plastics.pdf https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/... "These are the results of a survey conducted by Ipsos on its Global Advisor online platform [...] they are more urban, more educated, and/or more affluent than the general population. The survey results should be viewed as reflecting the views of the more “connected” segment of their population" So basically it's people who have internet and accepted to be paid to answer surveys. Like a Twitter poll. It's nowhere meant to be representative of the population.

com2kid 2y ago

Doing this will involve a dramatic reshaping of how society works. All of the food packaging that is plastic needs to go away. This would entail large shifts in supply chains, how we buy groceries, and economics of scale for certain goods. We know it is possible (glass bottles were the norm even just 30 years ago), but doing that transition now will be huge. Then there are all the plastic bags that food comes in. From cookie sleeves to protein bars, all those plastics need to go away. How products are made shelf stable will need to change, which means flavors will change, and some products may no longer be viable. I hope we make the change as a society, but it will be absurdly complicated to do. Edit: I'd love if the restaurant industry had standardized reusable takeout container sizes that could be washed and handed back to a restaurant for (sterilization and then) reuse! It would not only improve the quality of takeout food (better insulation), but be more environmentally friendly.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> All of the food packaging that is plastic needs to go away Most of it can be swapped to bioplastics with minimal loss of utility.
- com2kid 2y ago
  Only if they are 100% bioplastics, and 100% biodegradable in nature, not just in an industrial facility, or else you can end up with the same microplastics pollution problem. Although different chemicals are likely to have dramatic different impacts on the environment, hopefully by now we've learned that "dumping a bunch of microparticles into the environment and hoping everything is OK" is a bad way to go about things.

htk 2y ago

"Ban unnecessary single-use plastic products most likely to become plastic pollution, e.g. shopping bags, cutlery, cups & plates" Such a loaded question just weakens the point. That's why it's hard to take these efforts seriously.

ars 2y ago
Yah, I'd like to see the actual survey wording. All the weasel words they put in there make it seem kind of fake.
gleenn 2y ago
I kind of agree. I feel like the word "unnecessary" in that sentence guts it. Of course we should ban unnecessary and wasteful things. If the question was "should we ban plastic bags completely in favor of re-usable ones" might get a very different answer. I would definitely say yes to the first question but I also sometimes forget to bring my reusable bags to the store and then definitely always get the disposable ones if it's more items than I can carry in my hands.
- kragen 2y ago
  > Of course we should ban unnecessary and wasteful things i strongly disagree with this; in almost all cases, the choice of what is unnecessary and wasteful should rest with the individual person most affected by it, not some kind of political authority or social consensus. even when it's legitimately a question of public policy—alcohol, for example, an addictive drug that causes massive amounts of crime and something like 5% of the world's human deaths—pigovian taxes are far preferable to outright bans. alcohol is a useful cleaning fluid, for example, and an effective antidote to ethylene glycol poisoning (though in rich countries safer antidotes are now available) kim jong un has banned unnecessary and wasteful hairstyles, which is the road down which 'of course we should ban unnecessary and wasteful things' generally leads i find it rather horrifying how casually people promote totalitarian ideologies like this nowadays
  - gleenn 2y ago
    All I'm saying is the word "unnecessary" in that question clearly is a "weasel word" because, just like you're saying, it's subjective and also greatly weakens the statement. Usually unnecessary things with negative externalities are easy for people to say "sure let's get rid of that, it's not providing value". I think you're caveating something which only furthers that sentiment.

wannacboatmovie 2y ago

Those numbers are so highly skewed it seems improbable.

nerdjon 2y ago

I would love for it to happen since if it were to finally just happen maybe enough money will be pumped into figuring out the alternatives. But it would need to be done with a hard cutoff date but far enough for those things to be figured out. There are still some areas that we seem to not quite have an alternative. Or the environmental impact of the alternative is not quite as rosy as it appears.

lowkey_ 2y ago

I was skeptical of whether it was representative of 85% of the global population, or just the first-world. I've often thought (and heard that) environmental concerns are secondary to economic, and that people in less prosperous countries don't care as much about environmental concerns as people in first-world countries who are secure in most areas of their lives. Surprisingly, this data says the opposite! Sample size was: North America: 2000, Central & South America: 3500, Europe: 8000, Africa: 3000, APAC: 7700, On banning unnecessary single-use plastics being 'important': Australia: 87%, South Korea: 86%, Mexico: 94%, Uganda: 93%, This may be obvious to some, but I really had the opposite notion until seeing this data.

dumbo-octopus 2y ago
The response rate is so low as to be entirely meaningless. If you're content with sampling only 0.000001% of the population, you can get any results you want by simply selecting for the people who care the most by taking a bunch of time to lecture the individual if they seem like they'd vote the other way (oh no, you have to leave? but we didn't even have time to submit your vote yet... :( ), and wording the question in such a way to make the answer you want be the only reasonable response.
- orhmeh09 2y ago
  What do you think is a good sample size? How would you arrive at one?
  - aunty_helen 2y ago
    There isn’t one. Some things are not measurable by this standard and the stats relatively meaningless. 3000 people from a whole continent? Cmon
    - kragen 2y ago
      please see the introduction to statistical methods linked above at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40590633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40590633

beefnugs 2y ago

What a load of shit, paper straws cant even get through a single drink. Come up with some kind of useful alternative before just doing random reactionary dumb things

eitally 2y ago
You know what's the worst -- paper boba straws, especially for kids.
watermelon0 2y ago
Reusable metal straws do exist. They don't solve the problem for takeaway, but I assume straws are the least to worry there.
bsza 2y ago
Straws are a negligible [0] part of plastic waste, and the idea they aren't stems from research by a 9-year-old child [1]. We don't have to replace all single-use plastic, just those that matter. [0] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/news-plastic-drinking-straw-history-ban https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/news-... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-ban-fact-check-nyt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-b...

bagels 2y ago

How does this work, practically, at the grocery store? Many foods are sold in a disposable plastic wrapper. Cereal, meat, frozen foods, etc. What is the alternative? We bring a bunch of tupperware and everything is sold in bulk?

kragen 2y ago
they could sell you a glass jar with the food in it; in rich countries the extra cost of the disposable single-use glass wouldn't be significant to most consumers, although it would produce more pollution, hazard, and waste than the plastic alternatives. we've had returnable coke bottles since they started bottling coke

Aunche 2y ago

It's not sexy, but the number one way to reduce plastic pollution is to build landfills and proper waste management systems in developing countries. Plastic bans are largely performative and often counterproductive. Instead of bringing their own bags, a lot of shoppers just treat the "reuseable" bags the they buy a the supermarket as disposable. https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2024/01/22/new-jersey-bag-ban-followed-by-increased-use-of-plastic/?sh=44a368b66a85 https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickgleason/2024/01/22/new-j... https://www.latimes.com/environment/plastic-bag-ban-waste-404-123#:~:text=In%202014%2C%20when%20the%20ban,per%20pound%20has%20gone%20up https://www.latimes.com/environment/plastic-bag-ban-waste-40....

MattGaiser 2y ago
I’m curious what bags would need to cost to change that behaviour, as for all the complaining about inflation, many clearly don’t miss 3-4% a shop buying cloth bags here.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  I think bags would have to cost $10-$20 before the most people started remembering to bring one to the shop. People simply don't think far enough ahead to plan to take a bag to the shop, and prefer to 'pay for convenience'. Plenty of people pay $30 to avoid having to turn their oven on to cook something.
- graeme 2y ago
  I bring a bookbag to stores, but if I forget one I buy a "reuseable" bag and then get rid of it. If you need a bag you need a bag. Before plastic, stores had paper bags. Some stores offer these now but many don't. I find it surprising. They're certainly less useful than plastic bags but they're plenty useful. you can walk with 2-3 in your arms, they hold a good amount of things, and they're recyclable. And then if you need one with handles you can get one of the paid bags stores have.
quinncom 2y ago
Mexico City implemented a ban on single-use plastics on January 1, 2021, which has been almost completely ignored except outside of corporate chains such as Walmart, where indeed many people just buy the recyclable bags.

legitster 2y ago

I'm actually pretty curious how they conducted the survey - you can't usually get 80% of people on a phone to admit they use the bathroom, let alone agree with a complex policy proposal. The attached report is high on charts but low on details.

dinkleberg 2y ago
Yeah I was hoping to see some more details on that. I'm in favor of a ban like this, but as with every big move like this, there are negative consequences that come with it (everything has trade offs). I am very curious how they framed the question to get such a high percentage of agreement. Surely this ban would result, at least in the short term, in higher prices for a lot of goods.

ninetyninenine 2y ago

I think pretty much everyone wants this yet we still use these plastics… we want to end global warming yet we still drive cars. We care but to what degree do we actually care? Not much. There’s huge business interest pushing the usage of environmentally damaging products forward because it generates money. This against consumer laziness, progress will be slow

lunarboy 2y ago
Yeah positive incentive and/or negative deterrent is just not strong enough for people to act on it over the current convenience. If "reusable" bags cost $10 at the store, but you get it refunded if you bring your own, I bet people won't forget to bring their own. The laws just arent strong enough
textninja 2y ago
> There’s huge business interest pushing the usage of environmentally damaging products forward because it generates money. The converse (pushing green products) is also true so we have to consider whether the environmental impact is as big as is claimed, whether it's worth it even if it is (single issue reductivism is a dangerous way to craft policy), or whether banal financial and power incentives are the true moving force behind the lobbied solution.

contingencies 2y ago

The FMCG companies will oppose it and have deep pockets. I have spent nearly ten years developing robotics to bring complex food production to the edge so that perishable logistics can occur instead of distributing non-fresh products in single use plastics. When consumers shift to better product, change will occur.

skrebbel 2y ago

Can anyone explain to me how this works in practice? Eg if i now buy meat or cheese or pre-cut vegetables or bread at the supermarket, it’s in plastic packaging. What do legislators propose we replace that by? I understand (and use) reusable shopping bags but keeping sliced ham fresh sounds less practical. For clarity, I’m not skeptical, I’m all for the strictest plastic ban that’s remotely practical. But I don’t get how it would work. Do we all take tupperware into the butchers?

L-four 2y ago
Which ever is more profitable.
MSFT_Edging 2y ago
Butchers used to use wax paper. Many still do. A wax paper without a petroleum based coating can compost.
ganzuul 2y ago
Glass jars and tin cans were the old solution. Perhaps some modern deep eutectic chemistry can improve on the old energy economy of glass.
- kragen 2y ago
  deep eutectic systems seem a lot more likely to help with synthesizing organic plastics than with synthesizing glass
lokar 2y ago
People bought all of these things before plastics. When I get meat it tends to come wrapped in (waxed?) paper.
- Ray20 2y ago
  >People bought all of these things before plastics. Yes, and that was dangerous and inconvenient.
2y ago

L-four 2y ago

If we could get the total cost of product disposal built into the checkout price. I think single use plastics would solve it's self along with a litany of other garbage disposal problems.

bagels 2y ago
What would you estimate the cost to be? In my locale, bags are charged at $0.25 each.
AlexandrB 2y ago
While I agree in principle, I don't think this quite solves it. For example, disposable bags are extremely cheap to dispose of - they compress well and would take up minimal landfill space. The problem is how many of them "escape" between the initial purchase and getting to the landfill. How do you include that in the cost?
- L-four 2y ago
  Ideally this would be factored in and included in the cost of disposable. E.G. the cost of employing litter collection and disposal. The cost needs to be placed on the producers so they have incentive to solve these problems. Many plastic containers and recycling processes could be standardized but currently there's no reason to do.

textninja 2y ago

I’m taking this with a grain of salt because 85% of people adopting such a hardline environmentalist stance defies reason. I think the poll’s design and authors probably had something to do with it. Context matters!

legitster 2y ago
Kind of like that "4 out of 5 dentists" claim from back in the day - it involved some very heavy editorializing: https://nowiknow.com/who-was-the-fifth-dentist-that-didnt-recommend-trident/ https://nowiknow.com/who-was-the-fifth-dentist-that-didnt-re...

jjcm 2y ago

I don't want a ban, I want a tax on them. There's a strong use for single use plastics - medical goods being one of the important ones that I highly suspect people don't want a ban of. They define these as "necessary" versus "unnecessary" in their poll (ie the 85% figure is specifically for "ban unnecessary single-use plastic products, e.g., shopping bags, cutlery, cups & plates"). Things get murky really quickly when we bucket items. Are single use water bottles bad? Probably. Are all plastic liquid containers bad? Almost certainly not, you wouldn't want to store a corrosive acid that eats through glass in a glass bottle. So either the option is create a giant database of what is/isn't single use, which then can be gamed in its own way, or simply tax all single-use plastics such that necessary cases still leverage them, but it quickly doesn't become cost-effective for the main offending category of them.

ganzuul 2y ago
The tax might not have to be monetary. Putting geolocation QR codes on stuff could help mitigate the super-polluters by taxing perception.
cogman10 2y ago
> Are all plastic liquid containers bad? Almost certainly not, you wouldn't want to store a corrosive acid that eats through glass in a glass bottle. I'd argue that most, especially containers in regard to food item, are. You don't have to have a database to figure this out, you can start simple by just banning the use of single use plastic with regards to food. There aren't many (any?) items that are highly corrosive and intended for human consumption. Plastics in medicine could wait for another round of legislation. Single use plastics used for shipping consumer goods and food are the 80% of plastic production problem.
- Izkata 2y ago
  > There aren't many (any?) items that are highly corrosive and intended for human consumption. Pop cans have a plastic liner so it doesn't eat through the metal.
textninja 2y ago

DataDive 2y ago

I always use my reusable bags, On the other hand, I found that sometimes I run out of plastic bags when I need them at home. In some situations, a plastic bag is super useful: store a wet paintbrush overnight, wrap something that needs to retain moisture, lock up some smelly stuff, etc. In those cases, I go to a store that still has plastic bags, then buy some stuff there and generously pack them into plastic bags.

H1Supreme 2y ago

64% of the people surveyed in the US "agree" or "strongly agree". Maybe it's because I spend most of my time in less affluent parts of the country, but I almost never see people bringing their own bags to the grocery store. Checkout clerks usually seem surprised when I pull out my canvas bags.

primitivesuave 2y ago

When I was in New Zealand, they had a single standard reusable metal cup for all their coffee shops. That is, you can pay to refill the cup, and if the cup is dirty, any coffee shop will exchange it with a clean one for free. Consumers pay a small deposit for the cup, and can get the deposit back by returning it. Unfortunately, common-sense solutions like this one require tremendous political coordination to even get started. In most countries, environmentalism is far less creative - levy new taxes to change consumer behavior (e.g. single-use bags), or ban something entirely without consideration toward the alternatives (e.g. paper vs plastic straws).

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago

Fuck that. Journalists had to go to the far east to film plastic laden rivers in order to shape public opinion. It isn't our problem. Now if you're going to accuse us of just exporting our waste then that might be true. In that case we should stop the recycling scam and just burn it like we do with all other oil.

peetle 2y ago

Yes, but who wants to pay more for them? It's very hard to beat single use plastic bags for environmental impact: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/grocery-bag-environmental-impact https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/grocery-bag-environmental...

paul7986 2y ago

Weren't plastics and the recycling movement supposed to be good for the environment?

deleted 2y ago

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blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I am OK with plastic bans but they need to be implemented smartly. Near me, bans on single use plastic bags have resulted in all the stores handing out extra thick plastic bags that are treated as single use by everyone anyways. So I feel like it’s made the problem worse.

Gys 2y ago

Those people clearly vote differently, otherwise this (and other problems like this climate thing...) would have been solved a long time ago. Maybe they forgot to also ask 'what if it will cost you some money in the process or diminish your convenience'.

disambiguation 2y ago

I thought the majority of ocean plastic pollution was fishing nets? is everyone on the same page about what "single-use" plastic means here?

doug_durham 2y ago

You don't need to wait for a ban. There is a company that sells wonderful cherry tomatoes. They sell them in an elaborate non-reusable plastic container. It keeps the product from being damaged and it presents the product well. However I cannot justify throwing a large plastic container in the landfill so I can have a dozen cherry tomatoes. So I don't purchase them anymore. I wrote to the company letting them know the situation (I haven't heard back). We can make choices in our day-to-day lives to reduce plastic. Let the levers of the market pressure producers.

c22 2y ago

If this is true then is a ban even necessary? Or are just 15% of the people responsible for all single-usage of plastic?

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago

Don't need a survey for that. Just go to the nearest supermarket, stand near the cash register, and count how many people buy plastic bags, and divide by how many bring their own multiple-use bag. You will get the true picture, which I suspect is 10:1 in favor of single-use plastics.

vel0city 2y ago
The last time I was in a place that had a disposable shopping bag ban for a while, I was the only one seemingly grabbing some of the bags for sale as I was a visitor and did not have any of my own bags yet. I didn't see a single other person who actually lived there buy any bags on any of the trips I took to the grocery.

g9yuayon 2y ago

The All-In podcast mentioned research on the concentration of micro plastic particles in human body. I was wondering if banning single-use plastics can somehow reduce that concentration as well.

SergeAx 2y ago

Oh, that's an awesome result! I wonder how many of these people want to pay 20-50% more for their goods, repackaged?

Ekaros 2y ago

I wonder if all of these 85% people simply already refuse any single use plastic item. And never use such? Like no more plastic bags for anything, or not single plastic utensil. Or no single plastic cup. No single use medical devices like syringes.