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It is truly amazing how much engineering and science China has mastered. They have the newest space station as well. They appear to have made faster progress

It is truly amazing how much engineering and science China has mastered. They have the newest space station as well. They appear to have made faster progress on production of more advanced computer chips as well but that requires some further investigation / proof. This all while a single hostile nation wants to dictate what China is allowed or not allowed to buy on the free market.

tw04 2y ago
It’s also fueled by rampant IP theft. It’s a lot easier to advance when you’re not actually inventing anything.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Be that as it may, these things are won by whoever crosses the finish line first and China appears to be ahead of the west at this point and especially if current trends continue. Also worth noting that American space exploration achievements were also kickstarted by importing the talent from post-WW2 Germany.
  - 6d6b73 2y ago
    "the talent from post-WW2 Germany" is that a new way of saying "Nazi war criminals" like von Braun?
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      There aren't significant differences between a V-2, AIM-120 AMRAAM, Minuteman, Patriot, Tomahawk, Saturn V, Delta IV, Falcon 9, et al.. They are all metal pipes filled with boom powder that can be used to throw things up.
      - 6d6b73 2y ago
        And a microchip is just a bunch of copper wires with sand around them
      - dekhn 2y ago
        One of the differences is that the V-2 was built via slave labor in a massive cave where people were literally worked to death.
      - w0z_ 2y ago
        "There aren't significant differences between a V-2, AIM-120 AMRAAM, Minuteman, Patriot, Tomahawk, Saturn V, Delta IV, Falcon 9, et al.." I didn't think news.ycombinator.com catered to misinformation. I'm guessing your PhD is in Aerospace Engineering?
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        They are all pointy metal tubes with wings and (an) engine(s), filled with fuel that go boom to make them fly, carrying some sort of payload. Their only difference is to what purpose they are used. Some are used to destroy, some are used to kill, some are used to defend, some are used to throw stuff into space. But they are all pointy metal tubes filled with boom powder.
        w0z_ 2y ago
        Absolutely insane comment and can't believe this is allowed here.
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        Nearly all modern forms of rocketry trace their roots to German technologies like the V-2, and rockets used for space exploration in particular are direct or spiritual descendents of intercontinental ballistic missiles repurposed for civilian use. There really is no difference to the rockets themselves, they are all varying forms of pointy metal pipes filled with boom powder. The only difference is the payload they carry; whether they are humans or spaceborne vessels like satellites, or explosives of various descriptions with which to destroy and kill. If you disagree, and you've certainly made it clear you do, you can put forth counterarguments instead of claiming quackery.
        defrost 2y ago
        Well, you've almost convinced me. One quick question though, what was the "powder" used on, say, the Apollo missions? I've always heard the Saturn V launch had a J-2 liquid propellant rocket engine that used used liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > worth noting that American space exploration achievements were also kickstarted by importing the talent from post-WW2 Germany China can’t really play this card given what it’s currently doing in Xinjiang/East Turkestan [1]. (And while America was capturing the likes of von Braun and chemical bombing Vietnam, Mao was conducting his own crimes against humanity [2].) The proximate history of every country’s aerospace programme is unfortunately troubled. What matters is what can be done today and by whom. In that, China and America are worthy adversaries. Let’s hope the competition can be kept civil versus militarised. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Ch... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
- grecy 2y ago
  Humans would be a lot better off if everyone just copied everyone so we could advance as quickly as possible - imagine if the entire would could just manufacture whatever cutting edge medicine some corporation is holding hostage - and that's just the medicine example. Let your mind wander to every aspect of life - clean energy, transport, tech. Of course corporations wouldn't make nearly as much money, but is the goal of civilization for humans to live good lives, or for corporations to make maximum profit?
  - hm-nah 2y ago
    Humans would be a lot better off, if we could agree on what we are progressing to. When US has agenda of X and China had an agenda of Y, etc, we’ll be pulling at the common center of humanity. The feeling is pervasive in the enterprise as well. Each one protecting and petting their own agendas…fucking humans.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Yes its works for 1 generation, but nobody ain't going to break their back again to develop next generation cutting edge machine, if the adequate reward won't be there. And some cheers are not cutting it for capable and ambitious folks. Adequate reward in corporate world means of ten hundreds of millions or billions, since risk of failure and losing it all are often massive and they do happen regularly, risk gets bigger the more revolutionary stuff you do. That's why US won cold war - individuals and private entities were massively motivated to do their best, and so they did and in few decades leaped light years ahead of eastern bloc. Anybody from former soviet bloc/eastern bloc visiting western country went through absolute shock and disbelief, and that includes Gorbachev visiting supermarket in West Germany in late 80s IIRC, he thought its some sort of propaganda trick on him. I went through milder version of it too, a powerful experience. Communism in any form doesn't work long term, tried and tested many times already, period. It fails on people, and that's enough for a complete failure. Neutral non-greedy AGI could make this work, if not turning into some form of Skynet... but getting vastly off topic here
- basch 2y ago
  The scale of wealth/information transfer probably hasn't closely been accounted for, and is a fascinating story. https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/07/09/nsa-chief-cybercrime-constitutes-the-greatest-transfer-of-wealth-in-history/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/07/09/nsa-chief-cybercrime-co... https://www.infosecinstitute.com/resources/general-security/cyber-espionage-the-greatest-transfer-of-wealth-in-history/ https://www.infosecinstitute.com/resources/general-security/... https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/pub4199.pdf https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/pub4199.pdf https://securitypolicylaw.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Lotrionte_Countering_State_Sponsored_Cyber_Economic_Espionage.pdf https://securitypolicylaw.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/06... America's petro dollar funds research by arming countries that pull oil from the ground, research that is then acquired, emulated, and iterated upon. Who's the crook in that story? The people robbing the earth of a natural resource? The people holding the world hostage forcing them to use their financial system? The people taking scientific knowledge they didn't "pay for." While a significant portion of the techy American population in their younger years was against America's strengthen of intellectual property rights, while they were focused on art being locked down, were ignoring how much of America's strength in the world is propped up by claiming America owns ideas, information, and knowledge, that others have to buy from them.
- pompino 2y ago
  As-if all countries are on the brink of launching their own space program, if only they copied a few PDFs from somewhere. Its a US intelligence talking point.
skhunted 2y ago
This all while a single hostile nation wants to dictate what China is allowed or not allowed to buy on the free market. Xi has abandoned the wise policies of Deng and is setting China back. Due to the idiocy of Xi it's not a single hostile nation as you put it. It's Vietnam, South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, India, the EU, Australia, and New Zealand.
- Leary 2y ago
  If the EU is so hostile as you claim, why did France, Italy, and Sweden all collaborate with China on this mission to the moon?
  - micromacrofoot 2y ago
    government agencies sometimes have some leeway to cooperate despite broader government policies, especially in science - the ISS did this too
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    It'd be nice if we could get all three of you to stop with the propaganda. This is a step forward for mankind. Jeez, this is why we can't have nice things.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      Parent commenter isn't wrong, though. China's only definitive enemies are the US (at risk of their throne being usurped) and India (they've been waging border skirmishes for decades, long before Xi came to power). As for the rest: * The EU plays a two-faced game, antagonizing China to please the US while cooperating with China for benefits. * Japan and South Korea must respect the fact China is their regional dominant power, not the US nor themselves. Both historically and again in modern times as China (re)gains power. * Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Phillipines, et al.) and Oceania (Australia, New Zealand) antagonize or cooperate with China depending on the political winds of a given year.
      - 2y ago
joshuaheard 2y ago
I love the spirit of the Chinese people, but much of the engineering and science China has was stolen from the "hostile nation". China also restricts who can enter its markets and censors its citizens from outside influences.
- pompino 2y ago
  How do you know what was "stolen" and how it helped them?
  - joshuaheard 2y ago
    It's well known that China steals intellectual property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_theft_by_China#:~:text=China%20is%20regularly%20accused%20by,also%20include%20academia%20and%20government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr....
huygens6363 2y ago
It’s a disgrace indeed. This fragile, completely open and transparant, utterly harmless human rights paradise wants to just grow a tiny bit while this single, isolated, hostile, aggressive and jealous close-minded nation wants to control them.

tw04 2y ago

It’s also fueled by rampant IP theft. It’s a lot easier to advance when you’re not actually inventing anything.

Dalewyn 2y ago
Be that as it may, these things are won by whoever crosses the finish line first and China appears to be ahead of the west at this point and especially if current trends continue. Also worth noting that American space exploration achievements were also kickstarted by importing the talent from post-WW2 Germany.
- 6d6b73 2y ago
  "the talent from post-WW2 Germany" is that a new way of saying "Nazi war criminals" like von Braun?
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    There aren't significant differences between a V-2, AIM-120 AMRAAM, Minuteman, Patriot, Tomahawk, Saturn V, Delta IV, Falcon 9, et al.. They are all metal pipes filled with boom powder that can be used to throw things up.
    - 6d6b73 2y ago
      And a microchip is just a bunch of copper wires with sand around them
    - dekhn 2y ago
      One of the differences is that the V-2 was built via slave labor in a massive cave where people were literally worked to death.
    - w0z_ 2y ago
      "There aren't significant differences between a V-2, AIM-120 AMRAAM, Minuteman, Patriot, Tomahawk, Saturn V, Delta IV, Falcon 9, et al.." I didn't think news.ycombinator.com catered to misinformation. I'm guessing your PhD is in Aerospace Engineering?
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        They are all pointy metal tubes with wings and (an) engine(s), filled with fuel that go boom to make them fly, carrying some sort of payload. Their only difference is to what purpose they are used. Some are used to destroy, some are used to kill, some are used to defend, some are used to throw stuff into space. But they are all pointy metal tubes filled with boom powder.
        w0z_ 2y ago
        Absolutely insane comment and can't believe this is allowed here.
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        Nearly all modern forms of rocketry trace their roots to German technologies like the V-2, and rockets used for space exploration in particular are direct or spiritual descendents of intercontinental ballistic missiles repurposed for civilian use. There really is no difference to the rockets themselves, they are all varying forms of pointy metal pipes filled with boom powder. The only difference is the payload they carry; whether they are humans or spaceborne vessels like satellites, or explosives of various descriptions with which to destroy and kill. If you disagree, and you've certainly made it clear you do, you can put forth counterarguments instead of claiming quackery.
        defrost 2y ago
        Well, you've almost convinced me. One quick question though, what was the "powder" used on, say, the Apollo missions? I've always heard the Saturn V launch had a J-2 liquid propellant rocket engine that used used liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > worth noting that American space exploration achievements were also kickstarted by importing the talent from post-WW2 Germany China can’t really play this card given what it’s currently doing in Xinjiang/East Turkestan [1]. (And while America was capturing the likes of von Braun and chemical bombing Vietnam, Mao was conducting his own crimes against humanity [2].) The proximate history of every country’s aerospace programme is unfortunately troubled. What matters is what can be done today and by whom. In that, China and America are worthy adversaries. Let’s hope the competition can be kept civil versus militarised. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Ch... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
grecy 2y ago
Humans would be a lot better off if everyone just copied everyone so we could advance as quickly as possible - imagine if the entire would could just manufacture whatever cutting edge medicine some corporation is holding hostage - and that's just the medicine example. Let your mind wander to every aspect of life - clean energy, transport, tech. Of course corporations wouldn't make nearly as much money, but is the goal of civilization for humans to live good lives, or for corporations to make maximum profit?
- hm-nah 2y ago
  Humans would be a lot better off, if we could agree on what we are progressing to. When US has agenda of X and China had an agenda of Y, etc, we’ll be pulling at the common center of humanity. The feeling is pervasive in the enterprise as well. Each one protecting and petting their own agendas…fucking humans.
- jajko 2y ago
  Yes its works for 1 generation, but nobody ain't going to break their back again to develop next generation cutting edge machine, if the adequate reward won't be there. And some cheers are not cutting it for capable and ambitious folks. Adequate reward in corporate world means of ten hundreds of millions or billions, since risk of failure and losing it all are often massive and they do happen regularly, risk gets bigger the more revolutionary stuff you do. That's why US won cold war - individuals and private entities were massively motivated to do their best, and so they did and in few decades leaped light years ahead of eastern bloc. Anybody from former soviet bloc/eastern bloc visiting western country went through absolute shock and disbelief, and that includes Gorbachev visiting supermarket in West Germany in late 80s IIRC, he thought its some sort of propaganda trick on him. I went through milder version of it too, a powerful experience. Communism in any form doesn't work long term, tried and tested many times already, period. It fails on people, and that's enough for a complete failure. Neutral non-greedy AGI could make this work, if not turning into some form of Skynet... but getting vastly off topic here
basch 2y ago
The scale of wealth/information transfer probably hasn't closely been accounted for, and is a fascinating story. https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/07/09/nsa-chief-cybercrime-constitutes-the-greatest-transfer-of-wealth-in-history/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/07/09/nsa-chief-cybercrime-co... https://www.infosecinstitute.com/resources/general-security/cyber-espionage-the-greatest-transfer-of-wealth-in-history/ https://www.infosecinstitute.com/resources/general-security/... https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/pub4199.pdf https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/pub4199.pdf https://securitypolicylaw.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Lotrionte_Countering_State_Sponsored_Cyber_Economic_Espionage.pdf https://securitypolicylaw.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/06... America's petro dollar funds research by arming countries that pull oil from the ground, research that is then acquired, emulated, and iterated upon. Who's the crook in that story? The people robbing the earth of a natural resource? The people holding the world hostage forcing them to use their financial system? The people taking scientific knowledge they didn't "pay for." While a significant portion of the techy American population in their younger years was against America's strengthen of intellectual property rights, while they were focused on art being locked down, were ignoring how much of America's strength in the world is propped up by claiming America owns ideas, information, and knowledge, that others have to buy from them.
pompino 2y ago
As-if all countries are on the brink of launching their own space program, if only they copied a few PDFs from somewhere. Its a US intelligence talking point.

skhunted 2y ago

This all while a single hostile nation wants to dictate what China is allowed or not allowed to buy on the free market. Xi has abandoned the wise policies of Deng and is setting China back. Due to the idiocy of Xi it's not a single hostile nation as you put it. It's Vietnam, South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, India, the EU, Australia, and New Zealand.

Leary 2y ago
If the EU is so hostile as you claim, why did France, Italy, and Sweden all collaborate with China on this mission to the moon?
- micromacrofoot 2y ago
  government agencies sometimes have some leeway to cooperate despite broader government policies, especially in science - the ISS did this too
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  It'd be nice if we could get all three of you to stop with the propaganda. This is a step forward for mankind. Jeez, this is why we can't have nice things.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Parent commenter isn't wrong, though. China's only definitive enemies are the US (at risk of their throne being usurped) and India (they've been waging border skirmishes for decades, long before Xi came to power). As for the rest: * The EU plays a two-faced game, antagonizing China to please the US while cooperating with China for benefits. * Japan and South Korea must respect the fact China is their regional dominant power, not the US nor themselves. Both historically and again in modern times as China (re)gains power. * Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Phillipines, et al.) and Oceania (Australia, New Zealand) antagonize or cooperate with China depending on the political winds of a given year.
    - 2y ago

joshuaheard 2y ago

I love the spirit of the Chinese people, but much of the engineering and science China has was stolen from the "hostile nation". China also restricts who can enter its markets and censors its citizens from outside influences.

pompino 2y ago
How do you know what was "stolen" and how it helped them?
- joshuaheard 2y ago
  It's well known that China steals intellectual property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_theft_by_China#:~:text=China%20is%20regularly%20accused%20by,also%20include%20academia%20and%20government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr....

huygens6363 2y ago

It’s a disgrace indeed. This fragile, completely open and transparant, utterly harmless human rights paradise wants to just grow a tiny bit while this single, isolated, hostile, aggressive and jealous close-minded nation wants to control them.