9 ms·

Are they just banking on people not caring enough or knowing about the refund process? Clearly it can't be better off for them to refund hundreds of thousands m

Are they just banking on people not caring enough or knowing about the refund process? Clearly it can't be better off for them to refund hundreds of thousands maybe even 1m+ people. We need laws that step in to make this impossible. Hardware should be designed so that it can be reused. Make it so that people can just reflash the memory at a minimum. There's no reason for something like this to become e-waste. And the excuse being Spotify wanting to protect their brand should not stand.

marcosdumay 2y ago
It's a face saving move. They decided to just kill the thing less than 2 years after the launching. But people got angry, and having regulators look at them is way more expensive than refunding their customers. That said, yes, they will probably also make the process as hard as they can get away with it. Anyway, have some popcorn, this one got quite interesting.
sgerenser 2y ago
Did they actually sell 1m+ of these things? I think the reason they’re killing it is they hardly sold any.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
> Make it so that people can just reflash the memory at a minimum Letting the 0.1% of geeks who know how to and are interested in spending time on it reflash their hardware doesn't actually solve the problem in any meaningful way.
complaintdept 2y ago
Write your elected representatives, preferably by snail mail (they take it more seriously that way). With Right to Repair being talked about so much right now, the time could be right to get this into the public mind. Car Thing could be what nucleates anti bricking legislation.
- bravetraveler 2y ago
  Conversely, stop voting for people that need coerced to their job. I know this is reductive - save your fingers. Write, but do the not-vote-thing if they don't listen. The desire to not be hoodwinked has already been expressed. Just not this specific way. Or, expressed more positively I guess, vote for those who don't need goaded to do the obviously good thing.
  - hiAndrewQuinn 2y ago
    Why not go even farther than that? Admit political knowledge is virtually impossible, and just stop engaging in the political process at all. Save your time and energy for something easier, like cutting edge theoretical physics or becoming a billionaire. Such is the point argued by Dr. Mike Huemer in his essay In Praise of Passivity [1], and to this date I've never found a clearer piece of writing on the matter. [1]: https://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media/files/Studia_Humana/Studia_Humana-r2012-t-n2/Studia_Humana-r2012-t-n2-s12-28/Studia_Humana-r2012-t-n2-s12-28.pdf https://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media/files/Studia_Humana/Studia_Hum...
    - autoexec 2y ago
      If I wanted to cede control to unelected CEOs and unaccountable corporations I'd go around telling people not to exercise the power they have to influence politics too, because I'd know damn well that powerful corporations and industry groups aren't going to "stop engaging in the political process". They'll stay very busy spending huge amounts of time and money bribing politicians, writing legislation for them, and manipulating the public's perception to further their own interests and profits at the expense of everyone else. How frustrating it must be when the serfs interfere by exercising their rights to self-govern when they should just let their corporate masters run the show instead of insisting on a government that is "of the people, by the people, and for the people"
      - bravetraveler 2y ago
        Yea - I'm not advocating to stop participation entirely; just with the hacks/opportunists. We are so incredibly beyond the government serving the people. They don't reside in the same plane of existence. The average DC rep would be shocked to live like I did, the average person.
goodluckchuck 2y ago
We don’t need more laws. We need to repeal the arbitration act, and let things like this get resolved in court, where we can establish a precedent against this kind of stuff.
- contravariant 2y ago
  While we're at it let's get rid of the anti-circumvention part of the DMCA as well.
- teeray 2y ago
  Yeah, but it is so much work to litigate and it takes so much time, even for small claims. We can’t really expect a reasonable fraction of the owners of these devices to sue Spotify, then maintain the wherewithal to bring that suit to a judgement, then actually collect on it. The other legal mechanism, class actions, often just enrich the lawyers litigating them.
  - goodluckchuck 2y ago
    I would tend to disagree about civil litigation being that much work, because it takes far less effort than other approaches when measured by effectiveness. I’ve had situations where I’ve reported crimes to the authorities. Most of the time these reports go ignored. In one major instance they refused to even take a police report. I’ve put cases together will all the evidence needed for a conviction, and only once did they actually arrest the person (and even then adjudication was withheld). So yeah, leaving it up to the government is less work, but there’s a good chance nothing will happen (particularly if they’re not politically aligned on the issue / it would offend donors / etc.). Then when there is a “major” enforcement, it’s usually a slap on the wrist and no the victims get less than they would have from a class action.
- micromacrofoot 2y ago
  Do you have any reason to believe that "open unsupported hardware" would be a bad law? Resolving this in court every time a company decides to drop support seems worse.
bombcar 2y ago
Exactly this. They probably know the number using it down to single digits, and know exactly how much it will cost. Full refunds no questions asked will still only get some small percentage, most people don't take the time and just toss it.
keraf 2y ago
The lack of care for e-waste produced makes me sick. Spotify should at least open the hardware or sponsor a contest for a smart re-use / open source firmware for the device, would probably cost them less at the end and make them look better.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  The photos of landfills full of e-scooters make me physically ill.
  - haliskerbas 2y ago
    The current U.S. economic system doesn't support or incentivize caring about those things. Would you advocate for a system or policies that does incentivize it?
    - tombert 2y ago
      Not the person you responded to, but I would totally be onboard taxing companies in a way that more accurately reflects their environmental impact. As it stands products are artificially cheap because we're not factoring in environmental sustainability.
      - theturtletalks 2y ago
        Wireless earbuds are going to be filling landfills soon. They have become near unrepairable as of late and once the batteries inside barely last 15 min, people will just trash them and get new ones. At least wired headphones could be used for decades without issue.
        samatman 2y ago
        How much use out of something is enough? AirPods weigh 10.4 grams for the pair. Let's say two hours per charge, and 400 charges, before they're no good. That's 1.3 milligrams of e-waste per hour. After 77 hours you have one aspirin pill's worth of e-waste on your conscience. Filling a landfill? With the case, I get about 1.5 million per shipping container. How big are landfills where you live?
throwaway29812 2y ago
> Are they just banking on people not caring enough or knowing about the refund process? This seems to be the official policy for many retailers, insurance companies, etc. Hide the process, make it difficult, so you don't have to pay out as much.
ItCouldBeWorse 2y ago
Imagine, using a hacked and leaked customer database, to auto-start a refund process? Like, the victims do not even know they started one, but some chat-gpt generated letter is send in there name, making that road to curtail damages suddenly economically nonviable. And suddenly, data security and hacks, are no longer a "problem for the user" but a valid method, to sniper a careless competitor and buy the carcass. ____________________________________________________________ Is your product dangerous, addictive and stuck in a lawsuits-quagmire, even social engineering cant redirect away from you? We can help you- and create a healthy-alternative, that sits on the shelves like stones calming the public spirits feng-shui with a choice. Nothing sedates like responsibility distributed and societal agency diluted. The consumers are returning, the free market is healing. AliBuy products. We make it in red, so you don't have to.

marcosdumay 2y ago

It's a face saving move. They decided to just kill the thing less than 2 years after the launching. But people got angry, and having regulators look at them is way more expensive than refunding their customers. That said, yes, they will probably also make the process as hard as they can get away with it. Anyway, have some popcorn, this one got quite interesting.

sgerenser 2y ago

Did they actually sell 1m+ of these things? I think the reason they’re killing it is they hardly sold any.

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago

> Make it so that people can just reflash the memory at a minimum Letting the 0.1% of geeks who know how to and are interested in spending time on it reflash their hardware doesn't actually solve the problem in any meaningful way.

complaintdept 2y ago

Write your elected representatives, preferably by snail mail (they take it more seriously that way). With Right to Repair being talked about so much right now, the time could be right to get this into the public mind. Car Thing could be what nucleates anti bricking legislation.

bravetraveler 2y ago
Conversely, stop voting for people that need coerced to their job. I know this is reductive - save your fingers. Write, but do the not-vote-thing if they don't listen. The desire to not be hoodwinked has already been expressed. Just not this specific way. Or, expressed more positively I guess, vote for those who don't need goaded to do the obviously good thing.
- hiAndrewQuinn 2y ago
  Why not go even farther than that? Admit political knowledge is virtually impossible, and just stop engaging in the political process at all. Save your time and energy for something easier, like cutting edge theoretical physics or becoming a billionaire. Such is the point argued by Dr. Mike Huemer in his essay In Praise of Passivity [1], and to this date I've never found a clearer piece of writing on the matter. [1]: https://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media/files/Studia_Humana/Studia_Humana-r2012-t-n2/Studia_Humana-r2012-t-n2-s12-28/Studia_Humana-r2012-t-n2-s12-28.pdf https://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media/files/Studia_Humana/Studia_Hum...
  - autoexec 2y ago
    If I wanted to cede control to unelected CEOs and unaccountable corporations I'd go around telling people not to exercise the power they have to influence politics too, because I'd know damn well that powerful corporations and industry groups aren't going to "stop engaging in the political process". They'll stay very busy spending huge amounts of time and money bribing politicians, writing legislation for them, and manipulating the public's perception to further their own interests and profits at the expense of everyone else. How frustrating it must be when the serfs interfere by exercising their rights to self-govern when they should just let their corporate masters run the show instead of insisting on a government that is "of the people, by the people, and for the people"
    - bravetraveler 2y ago
      Yea - I'm not advocating to stop participation entirely; just with the hacks/opportunists. We are so incredibly beyond the government serving the people. They don't reside in the same plane of existence. The average DC rep would be shocked to live like I did, the average person.

goodluckchuck 2y ago

We don’t need more laws. We need to repeal the arbitration act, and let things like this get resolved in court, where we can establish a precedent against this kind of stuff.

contravariant 2y ago
While we're at it let's get rid of the anti-circumvention part of the DMCA as well.
teeray 2y ago
Yeah, but it is so much work to litigate and it takes so much time, even for small claims. We can’t really expect a reasonable fraction of the owners of these devices to sue Spotify, then maintain the wherewithal to bring that suit to a judgement, then actually collect on it. The other legal mechanism, class actions, often just enrich the lawyers litigating them.
- goodluckchuck 2y ago
  I would tend to disagree about civil litigation being that much work, because it takes far less effort than other approaches when measured by effectiveness. I’ve had situations where I’ve reported crimes to the authorities. Most of the time these reports go ignored. In one major instance they refused to even take a police report. I’ve put cases together will all the evidence needed for a conviction, and only once did they actually arrest the person (and even then adjudication was withheld). So yeah, leaving it up to the government is less work, but there’s a good chance nothing will happen (particularly if they’re not politically aligned on the issue / it would offend donors / etc.). Then when there is a “major” enforcement, it’s usually a slap on the wrist and no the victims get less than they would have from a class action.
micromacrofoot 2y ago
Do you have any reason to believe that "open unsupported hardware" would be a bad law? Resolving this in court every time a company decides to drop support seems worse.

bombcar 2y ago

Exactly this. They probably know the number using it down to single digits, and know exactly how much it will cost. Full refunds no questions asked will still only get some small percentage, most people don't take the time and just toss it.

keraf 2y ago

The lack of care for e-waste produced makes me sick. Spotify should at least open the hardware or sponsor a contest for a smart re-use / open source firmware for the device, would probably cost them less at the end and make them look better.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
The photos of landfills full of e-scooters make me physically ill.
- haliskerbas 2y ago
  The current U.S. economic system doesn't support or incentivize caring about those things. Would you advocate for a system or policies that does incentivize it?
  - tombert 2y ago
    Not the person you responded to, but I would totally be onboard taxing companies in a way that more accurately reflects their environmental impact. As it stands products are artificially cheap because we're not factoring in environmental sustainability.
    - theturtletalks 2y ago
      Wireless earbuds are going to be filling landfills soon. They have become near unrepairable as of late and once the batteries inside barely last 15 min, people will just trash them and get new ones. At least wired headphones could be used for decades without issue.
      - samatman 2y ago
        How much use out of something is enough? AirPods weigh 10.4 grams for the pair. Let's say two hours per charge, and 400 charges, before they're no good. That's 1.3 milligrams of e-waste per hour. After 77 hours you have one aspirin pill's worth of e-waste on your conscience. Filling a landfill? With the case, I get about 1.5 million per shipping container. How big are landfills where you live?

throwaway29812 2y ago

> Are they just banking on people not caring enough or knowing about the refund process? This seems to be the official policy for many retailers, insurance companies, etc. Hide the process, make it difficult, so you don't have to pay out as much.

ItCouldBeWorse 2y ago

Imagine, using a hacked and leaked customer database, to auto-start a refund process? Like, the victims do not even know they started one, but some chat-gpt generated letter is send in there name, making that road to curtail damages suddenly economically nonviable. And suddenly, data security and hacks, are no longer a "problem for the user" but a valid method, to sniper a careless competitor and buy the carcass. ____________________________________________________________ Is your product dangerous, addictive and stuck in a lawsuits-quagmire, even social engineering cant redirect away from you? We can help you- and create a healthy-alternative, that sits on the shelves like stones calming the public spirits feng-shui with a choice. Nothing sedates like responsibility distributed and societal agency diluted. The consumers are returning, the free market is healing. AliBuy products. We make it in red, so you don't have to.