16 ms·

Armor from Mycenaean Greece turns out to have been effective

228 points by thepuppet33r 2y ago

legitster 2y ago
> “Such suits of armor were recorded in palace archives—in the equipment lists of those complete or needing repair. This indicates they were supplied at the expense of palatial centers,” says Flouris. They were bloody expensive and thus financed, maintained, stored, and issued during emergencies by the state. Mycenaean palatial centers disappeared around 1200 BCE, and the supplies of Dendra-type armor disappeared with them. So... it sounds like the armor was kind of ceremonial in a way. Even if it was functional it didn't sound very practical - it only existed as a projection of force and wealth in defensive situations.
- travisjungroth 2y ago
  You could say the same thing about intercepter aircraft and it’s a real stretch to call those ceremonial.
  - peterarmstrong 2y ago
    Hey, in Canada the newest model will be! Next year we'll have, what, four F-35s? We'd almost be better off making a bunch of that bronze armour and the cool hats...
    - zknow 2y ago
      As a fellow Canadian I gotta agree on this one.
- Bayart 2y ago
  Working out as a projection of force assumes its usefulness at impressing force.
- alpaca128 2y ago
  One glance at the pictures tells me there's no way this design is for ceremonial use. This armor looks like a prime example of function over form.
YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
>> His team assumed the Trojan War happened Stop there and try to prove that, first.
- cannonpr 2y ago
  So literally ? Hard to, however there are many records of continuous invasions of Persia by Greeks of the era that are well substantiated and many torched cities that were rebuilt frequently. It might be more pertinent to say which events of over 20-30 major campaigns inspired the texts of the Iliad.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > there are many records of continuous invasions of Persia by Greeks of the era that are well substantiated Persia won't come into existence for at least 600 years if "the era" is Mycenaean Greece. If you're talking about the region of the Persian homeland, there are zero records of invasions by Greeks of the era. It's on the other side of Mesopotamia from them. Troy is located in Anatolia both according to classical tradition and modern belief. The best currently known evidence for the Trojan War is stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawagalawa_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawagalawa_letter
    - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
      I suspect OP is thinking of the Sea Peoples, some of whom are conjectured to have been Greeks (e.g. Acheans).
      - wwtrv 2y ago
        Do we know anything at all about any contact between the "Sea People" and Persia? e.g. the distance between ancient Persia and Egypt significantly (~50%) larger than between Egypt and the Greek mainland and sea travel was much faster in the first place.
        deleted 2y ago
jvanderbot 2y ago
> The 13 marines who volunteered were trained in historical combat, fitted with sensors that monitored their performance, and fed roughly 4,500 calories worth of goat cheese, roasted meat, olives, bread, water, wine, and other Bronze Age culinary delicacies. And then they had a go at it. This is science at its best. > During those 11 hours, a typical warrior in Homeric tales would go through 31 one-versus-one duels, 10 encounters with the enemy on a chariot, two chariot-versus-chariot engagements, and one chariot-versus-warrior-on-ship encounter (a ranged battle where the warrior defended beached ships from charging chariots).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  They should have done more stabby stabby on camera
jonathankoren 2y ago
The parallels with “European plate armor was too bulky to be used and knights couldn’t stand up when they fell”, shouldn’t be lost on anyone. It’s a common belief handed down over the years, but it’s complete bollocks. We know it is, because back in the 60s or 70s someone had the idea of actually putting the armor on, run around in it, and even get knocked down and stand up in it. There is like a BBC film showing this or something. It’s kinda weird that people keep dismissing the armor of the past as completely impractical, even though the people in the past keep saying or implying that this is exact what they wore into battle.
- surfingdino 2y ago
  It was difficult to mount a horse while wearing heavy armour though and I think that's how the rumour originated.
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  There are quite a few YouTube videos showing how full plate is worn and how much range of motion you’d have.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  There are more recently made videos, I believe, demonstrating the same thing: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
  - stanford_labrat 2y ago
    imagine being a medieval peasant conscript and seeing that guy from the first few seconds of the first video charging at you, knowing full well he's from the warrior class and trained his entire life for the job of fighting. terrifying...
    - pavel_lishin 2y ago
      I remember reading somewhere that peasants who killed an enemy night would effectively be treated as war criminals. So you'd be fucked no matter what you do.
lumb63 2y ago
> It took over a decade of research, elaborate numerical models, and 13 Greek marines fighting in it from dawn till dusk to prove it was surprisingly good at its job A decade of research and mathematical models to determine that an ancient civilization wasn’t just making useless armor for fun?
- jerf 2y ago
  The idea that we and we alone discovered being smart, or maybe, at best, the people in the 19th and 20th centuries were on to something although they are still nowhere near as smart as us, and everyone else in history were nasty drooling superstitious cretins in every way is ingrained surprisingly deeply into our culture, in multiple places, for multiple distinct reasons.
- aredox 2y ago
  Ceremonial armors aren't made for fun. Should our descendents of the year 3000 look at the British bearskin (the tall furry hat of the Royal Guard) and think "of course, this was standard combat attire".
  - adolph 2y ago
    Presumably something like the mitznefet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitznefet_(Israeli_military) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitznefet_(Israeli_military) https://www.twz.com/israeli-troops-chefs-hat-helmet-covers-explained https://www.twz.com/israeli-troops-chefs-hat-helmet-covers-e...
    - aredox 2y ago
      Exactly. Archeologist from the future working from fragmentary sources won't be easily able to determine if the mitznefet is battle gear or ceremonial parure. In fact, they could reach the wrong conclusion by noting the bearskin is more widespread than the mitznefet ("if it is efficient battle hat, why isn't it more widely in use?").
- ysavir 2y ago
lupusreal 2y ago
I love to see experimental archaeology making fools out of bookish academics too weak and lazy to get up from their chairs.
A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
From the article: > People suspected the Dendra armor was ceremonial That's not true. I don't think that there was ever anything approaching a consensus that the Mycenean Greek armor in question, the Dendra Panopoly, was entirely ceremonial. In fact, I've never even seen that view expressed. Many people believed that it would prove practical enough for infantry fighting. The old counter-argument -- which even then was speculative -- was that the armor was intended for charioteers. See: https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/encased-bronze-panoply-mycenaean-tomb-dendra/ https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/encased-bronze... What's more, people have been making and sparring in reproduction pieces for years: https://mindhost.tumblr.com/post/141243954157/dendra-panoply-mycenaean-armour-recreation https://mindhost.tumblr.com/post/141243954157/dendra-panoply... And especially: https://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm https://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm > "Some high fidelity reconstructions have demonstrate how this panoply, despite the huge aspect, was enough flexible and comfortable to be used also during fights on foot and not, as sometimes argued, exclusively by warriors fighting from the chariots."
- hinkley 2y ago
  I wonder if this was intraoffice politics. You work with two loud, tenured professors who both believe a certain thing that your advisor thinks is bullshit, and your dissertation or post doc publications become about how Steve and Mark are wrong. Suck it, Steve.
  - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
    That may be the case. There's also, assuredly, an element of that very recent controversy: "If it's not published in a peer review journal, it doesn't exist." Now that somebody has written up a report of people sparring in modern recreations of the Dendra Panopoly, and has had it published in a decent journal, the matter is settled. Before, despite dozens of people and groups doing the same exact thing, I suppose it wasn't! Goes to show.
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      Reminds me of how I just saw a paper where scientists proved it was safe to eat double-yolk eggs, which I do all the time.
EdwardDiego 2y ago
It looks imposing enough, reminds me of Stargate's aliens.
bitwize 2y ago
There's something vaguely Doom-like about dressing modern marines in ancient armor and letting them fight, and I am totally here for it.
- enhancer 2y ago
  And the armor looks like it fits in Dark Souls
doctorwho42 2y ago
Looking at that armor, it makes WAY more sense why Homer/Greeks would make Achilles' weak point his heel... Dude is literally a bronze tank in that armor. Only way to really stop him is to take out a leg, and his feet are like the least armored thing about him.
- Tao3300 2y ago
  That's a great observation. The very tendon we named after him is just hanging out there.
INTPenis 2y ago
The person carrying such an expensive suit probably had a very specific role on the battlefield. Which is a source of endless speculation. Presumably they had to be protected to perform a task while exposed to arrows or spears.
LarsDu88 2y ago
A full suit of bronze armor back in 1200 BCE must have been absurdly expensive. To make bronze, you need to alloy copper with tin which is rather rare The alternative to tin was arsenic which is incredibly toxic to work with.
andrewflnr 2y ago
The huge collar is a really interesting feature. That's sure going to make it hard to attack the soldiers neck, with not that much cost to mobility or even visibility. I think the neck is one of the trickier articulation points in European plate armor and space suits, for similar reasons. The giant collar seems like a gordian knot type of solution. But if anyone gets as far as deploying hooks to the battlefield, perhaps as part of a halberd-like weapon, those collars will be trouble.
- YurgenJurgensen 2y ago
  From what I've seen, gorgets were generally more common than articulated visors. so the collar is a fairly standard feature, it's just more obvious than on later plate. Obviously the drawback of that design is that more standoff means more surface area to armour, which means more weight for the same protection.
  - gridspy 2y ago
    More standoff means that the armor can spread a blow over a larger deflection without injuring the wearer. Also, a blow is going to contact a larger area of metal during the deflection. So you could use lighter or more flexible material - heavier perhaps but superior protection.
- Tao3300 2y ago
  When Achilles defeats Hector, he's able to do so because he exploits the gap in his armor that leaves the neck exposed. Achilles knows about this because the armor had previously belonged to him, and he's now fighting in new armor gifted to him by a different goddess. Replace "divine gift" with "innovation" and now we have a story about how exactly this sort of armor was a hot new technology.
estreeper 2y ago
Here’s a short video of this armor in action: https://youtu.be/rm2ZR25xU8M?si=6HdtRO8cFxB5HO8l https://youtu.be/rm2ZR25xU8M?si=6HdtRO8cFxB5HO8l
- jeremiahbuckley 2y ago
  Thank you! I particularly like the brief clip of an armored guy standing on a chariot strapped to a treadmill. It appears he is able to stand stoically while machines work underneath him. I have to assume it’s some sort of wind tunnel test and there’s a fan or something off camera left?
- Tao3300 2y ago
  Ok, warmups are over. Send in the retiarius and let's see what happens!
jakderrida 2y ago
I recall watching a lecture on Youtube where the lecturer pulled up a picture of the same armor as an example of archaeologists misinterpreting the purpose of what they find. The lecture hall, filled with professionals, started laughing as if it were some obvious well-known mistake of the archaeologist misidentifying it as armor. Still not sure what they all thought it was.
WalterBright 2y ago
In WW2, the Japanese Zero did not have armor on the theory that the lighter weight would make the Zero more maneuverable and that was the best defense a pilot could have. The Zero's first adversary was the P40 Warhawk. The P40 was inferior in every way but one - it had forward armor. The pilots figured out that the way to beat the Zero was a head on attack, with both pilots blasting away. With no armor the Zero would get shredded. The Zero pilots had a pretty hard time of it during the war.
- cynusx 2y ago
  They were just ahead of the times. Modern fighting jets don't have armour either because missiles blast straight through it anyway.
  - fifilura 2y ago
    Being ahead didn't help much? I would not say ahead, rather out of step with the times.
- Jensson 2y ago
  > The pilots figured out that the way to beat the Zero was a head on attack, with both pilots blasting away. With no armor the Zero would get shredded. The Zero pilots had a pretty hard time of it during the war. Sounds like that lack of armor wasn't an advantage.
  - Tao3300 2y ago
    Arms race. It was an advantage until the enemy adapted.
FpUser 2y ago
>"fed roughly 4,500 calories worth of goat cheese, roasted meat, olives, bread, water, wine ..." Where do I sign up ...
jessepasley 2y ago
I initially read 'Dendra Armor' as 'Daedra Armor'
xarope 2y ago
For the marines, I think wearing a kevlar helmet, LBV (or whatever they are using nowadays) with water, ammo etc, would already be 30+lbs (not including plate), so I suspect the marines would be like "45lbs, is that it?"
swiftcoder 2y ago
> fed roughly 4,500 calories worth of goat cheese, roasted meat, olives, bread, water, wine, and other Bronze Age culinary delicacies Where do I sign up?
- petesergeant 2y ago
  Keep an eye out for signs that say ταβέρνα
- zolbrek 2y ago
  I was thinking this myself.
keiferski 2y ago
The most interesting thing about these old forms of armor to me is how they were developed in the first place. Did craftsmen work with warriors to test and fine-tune which designs worked and which didn’t? Or maybe it was more of an evolutionary process, whereby the winners of a conflict (which they won by having better armor) became the rulers, and therefore their designs were considered the best and copied?
- asadotzler 2y ago
  Dudes get back from a war and say "hey, this one guy that killed most of us had a neat-o neck piece, can we have those and see if they help?"
Ekaros 2y ago
Ceremonial armour feels so strange concept. For something to become ceremonial it must first have real use case. You don't just go around inventing things from zero. Maybe you will scale it up and make it more impressive, but to have meaning it must first at some point had some real use.
- 1123581321 2y ago
  That’s a good explanation of their origin. Ceremonial objects could be preserved and their progenitors lost, due to material reuse, ceremonial objects being well preserved through different storage methods, or something else. However, usually objects of ceremonial use are also functional, just too expensive for everyone to use. E.g. we would tend to find an especially engraved bowl in ruins of a religious building—-it could still hold soup or beer in a pinch.
ajuc 2y ago
> The composition of this ordeal was inferred from statistical analysis of fights in The Iliad. Each of those scenarios included a fair share of spear throws, sword strikes, shooting arrows, and spear strikes, all performed in full body armor. Overall, the whole day was effectively a long, high-intensity interval exercise. I love the idea of people 2000 years from now doing statistical analysis of Rambo movies to deduce how wars were fought in 20th century.
- naijaboiler 2y ago
  Can 1 man really beat a battalion by himself
btbuildem 2y ago
It looks so silly! But there's an equally silly chestnut among archeologists, that when an artifact is found and the boffins can't divine it's purpose, the go-to answer is "religious use" or "ceremonial". The neck part of the armour is actually quite clever on closer inspection -- no complex moving part, doesn't restrict the wearer's head movements (well, other than looking at your own feet I guess) and seems to offer robust protection. It reminds me somewhat of the benevolent aliens in Fifth Element.
philbin 2y ago
[dead]
iambateman 2y ago
In 3000 years, what of our culture will be wrongly associated with usage in a religious ceremony? My money is on the cybertruck
- ertian 2y ago
  I mean it is largely ceremonial... (along with all those F-250s in the middle of a crowded city)
- doublepg23 2y ago
  The bathroom mirror.
082349872349872 2y ago
submission linking to actual paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40527844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40527844
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
rrr_oh_man 2y ago
170 fucking ad partners. Jesus fucking Christ.
- HeckFeck 2y ago
  Like the loaves and the fishes, they multiply.

228 points by thepuppet33r 2y ago

> “Such suits of armor were recorded in palace archives—in the equipment lists of those complete or needing repair. This indicates they were supplied at the expense of palatial centers,” says Flouris. They were bloody expensive and thus financed, maintained, stored, and issued during emergencies by the state. Mycenaean palatial centers disappeared around 1200 BCE, and the supplies of Dendra-type armor disappeared with them. So... it sounds like the armor was kind of ceremonial in a way. Even if it was functional it didn't sound very practical - it only existed as a projection of force and wealth in defensive situations.

travisjungroth 2y ago
You could say the same thing about intercepter aircraft and it’s a real stretch to call those ceremonial.
- peterarmstrong 2y ago
  Hey, in Canada the newest model will be! Next year we'll have, what, four F-35s? We'd almost be better off making a bunch of that bronze armour and the cool hats...
  - zknow 2y ago
    As a fellow Canadian I gotta agree on this one.
Bayart 2y ago
Working out as a projection of force assumes its usefulness at impressing force.
alpaca128 2y ago
One glance at the pictures tells me there's no way this design is for ceremonial use. This armor looks like a prime example of function over form.

YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago

>> His team assumed the Trojan War happened Stop there and try to prove that, first.

cannonpr 2y ago
So literally ? Hard to, however there are many records of continuous invasions of Persia by Greeks of the era that are well substantiated and many torched cities that were rebuilt frequently. It might be more pertinent to say which events of over 20-30 major campaigns inspired the texts of the Iliad.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > there are many records of continuous invasions of Persia by Greeks of the era that are well substantiated Persia won't come into existence for at least 600 years if "the era" is Mycenaean Greece. If you're talking about the region of the Persian homeland, there are zero records of invasions by Greeks of the era. It's on the other side of Mesopotamia from them. Troy is located in Anatolia both according to classical tradition and modern belief. The best currently known evidence for the Trojan War is stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawagalawa_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawagalawa_letter
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    I suspect OP is thinking of the Sea Peoples, some of whom are conjectured to have been Greeks (e.g. Acheans).
    - wwtrv 2y ago
      Do we know anything at all about any contact between the "Sea People" and Persia? e.g. the distance between ancient Persia and Egypt significantly (~50%) larger than between Egypt and the Greek mainland and sea travel was much faster in the first place.
      - deleted 2y ago

jvanderbot 2y ago

> The 13 marines who volunteered were trained in historical combat, fitted with sensors that monitored their performance, and fed roughly 4,500 calories worth of goat cheese, roasted meat, olives, bread, water, wine, and other Bronze Age culinary delicacies. And then they had a go at it. This is science at its best. > During those 11 hours, a typical warrior in Homeric tales would go through 31 one-versus-one duels, 10 encounters with the enemy on a chariot, two chariot-versus-chariot engagements, and one chariot-versus-warrior-on-ship encounter (a ranged battle where the warrior defended beached ships from charging chariots).

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
They should have done more stabby stabby on camera

jonathankoren 2y ago

The parallels with “European plate armor was too bulky to be used and knights couldn’t stand up when they fell”, shouldn’t be lost on anyone. It’s a common belief handed down over the years, but it’s complete bollocks. We know it is, because back in the 60s or 70s someone had the idea of actually putting the armor on, run around in it, and even get knocked down and stand up in it. There is like a BBC film showing this or something. It’s kinda weird that people keep dismissing the armor of the past as completely impractical, even though the people in the past keep saying or implying that this is exact what they wore into battle.

surfingdino 2y ago
It was difficult to mount a horse while wearing heavy armour though and I think that's how the rumour originated.
kayodelycaon 2y ago
There are quite a few YouTube videos showing how full plate is worn and how much range of motion you’d have.
pavel_lishin 2y ago
There are more recently made videos, I believe, demonstrating the same thing: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
- stanford_labrat 2y ago
  imagine being a medieval peasant conscript and seeing that guy from the first few seconds of the first video charging at you, knowing full well he's from the warrior class and trained his entire life for the job of fighting. terrifying...
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    I remember reading somewhere that peasants who killed an enemy night would effectively be treated as war criminals. So you'd be fucked no matter what you do.

lumb63 2y ago

> It took over a decade of research, elaborate numerical models, and 13 Greek marines fighting in it from dawn till dusk to prove it was surprisingly good at its job A decade of research and mathematical models to determine that an ancient civilization wasn’t just making useless armor for fun?

jerf 2y ago
The idea that we and we alone discovered being smart, or maybe, at best, the people in the 19th and 20th centuries were on to something although they are still nowhere near as smart as us, and everyone else in history were nasty drooling superstitious cretins in every way is ingrained surprisingly deeply into our culture, in multiple places, for multiple distinct reasons.
aredox 2y ago
Ceremonial armors aren't made for fun. Should our descendents of the year 3000 look at the British bearskin (the tall furry hat of the Royal Guard) and think "of course, this was standard combat attire".
- adolph 2y ago
  Presumably something like the mitznefet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitznefet_(Israeli_military) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitznefet_(Israeli_military) https://www.twz.com/israeli-troops-chefs-hat-helmet-covers-explained https://www.twz.com/israeli-troops-chefs-hat-helmet-covers-e...
  - aredox 2y ago
    Exactly. Archeologist from the future working from fragmentary sources won't be easily able to determine if the mitznefet is battle gear or ceremonial parure. In fact, they could reach the wrong conclusion by noting the bearskin is more widespread than the mitznefet ("if it is efficient battle hat, why isn't it more widely in use?").
ysavir 2y ago

lupusreal 2y ago

I love to see experimental archaeology making fools out of bookish academics too weak and lazy to get up from their chairs.

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago

From the article: > People suspected the Dendra armor was ceremonial That's not true. I don't think that there was ever anything approaching a consensus that the Mycenean Greek armor in question, the Dendra Panopoly, was entirely ceremonial. In fact, I've never even seen that view expressed. Many people believed that it would prove practical enough for infantry fighting. The old counter-argument -- which even then was speculative -- was that the armor was intended for charioteers. See: https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/encased-bronze-panoply-mycenaean-tomb-dendra/ https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/encased-bronze... What's more, people have been making and sparring in reproduction pieces for years: https://mindhost.tumblr.com/post/141243954157/dendra-panoply-mycenaean-armour-recreation https://mindhost.tumblr.com/post/141243954157/dendra-panoply... And especially: https://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm https://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm > "Some high fidelity reconstructions have demonstrate how this panoply, despite the huge aspect, was enough flexible and comfortable to be used also during fights on foot and not, as sometimes argued, exclusively by warriors fighting from the chariots."

hinkley 2y ago
I wonder if this was intraoffice politics. You work with two loud, tenured professors who both believe a certain thing that your advisor thinks is bullshit, and your dissertation or post doc publications become about how Steve and Mark are wrong. Suck it, Steve.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  That may be the case. There's also, assuredly, an element of that very recent controversy: "If it's not published in a peer review journal, it doesn't exist." Now that somebody has written up a report of people sparring in modern recreations of the Dendra Panopoly, and has had it published in a decent journal, the matter is settled. Before, despite dozens of people and groups doing the same exact thing, I suppose it wasn't! Goes to show.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    Reminds me of how I just saw a paper where scientists proved it was safe to eat double-yolk eggs, which I do all the time.

EdwardDiego 2y ago

It looks imposing enough, reminds me of Stargate's aliens.

bitwize 2y ago

There's something vaguely Doom-like about dressing modern marines in ancient armor and letting them fight, and I am totally here for it.

enhancer 2y ago
And the armor looks like it fits in Dark Souls

doctorwho42 2y ago

Looking at that armor, it makes WAY more sense why Homer/Greeks would make Achilles' weak point his heel... Dude is literally a bronze tank in that armor. Only way to really stop him is to take out a leg, and his feet are like the least armored thing about him.

Tao3300 2y ago
That's a great observation. The very tendon we named after him is just hanging out there.

INTPenis 2y ago

The person carrying such an expensive suit probably had a very specific role on the battlefield. Which is a source of endless speculation. Presumably they had to be protected to perform a task while exposed to arrows or spears.

LarsDu88 2y ago

A full suit of bronze armor back in 1200 BCE must have been absurdly expensive. To make bronze, you need to alloy copper with tin which is rather rare The alternative to tin was arsenic which is incredibly toxic to work with.

andrewflnr 2y ago

The huge collar is a really interesting feature. That's sure going to make it hard to attack the soldiers neck, with not that much cost to mobility or even visibility. I think the neck is one of the trickier articulation points in European plate armor and space suits, for similar reasons. The giant collar seems like a gordian knot type of solution. But if anyone gets as far as deploying hooks to the battlefield, perhaps as part of a halberd-like weapon, those collars will be trouble.

YurgenJurgensen 2y ago
From what I've seen, gorgets were generally more common than articulated visors. so the collar is a fairly standard feature, it's just more obvious than on later plate. Obviously the drawback of that design is that more standoff means more surface area to armour, which means more weight for the same protection.
- gridspy 2y ago
  More standoff means that the armor can spread a blow over a larger deflection without injuring the wearer. Also, a blow is going to contact a larger area of metal during the deflection. So you could use lighter or more flexible material - heavier perhaps but superior protection.
Tao3300 2y ago
When Achilles defeats Hector, he's able to do so because he exploits the gap in his armor that leaves the neck exposed. Achilles knows about this because the armor had previously belonged to him, and he's now fighting in new armor gifted to him by a different goddess. Replace "divine gift" with "innovation" and now we have a story about how exactly this sort of armor was a hot new technology.

estreeper 2y ago

Here’s a short video of this armor in action: https://youtu.be/rm2ZR25xU8M?si=6HdtRO8cFxB5HO8l https://youtu.be/rm2ZR25xU8M?si=6HdtRO8cFxB5HO8l

jeremiahbuckley 2y ago
Thank you! I particularly like the brief clip of an armored guy standing on a chariot strapped to a treadmill. It appears he is able to stand stoically while machines work underneath him. I have to assume it’s some sort of wind tunnel test and there’s a fan or something off camera left?
Tao3300 2y ago
Ok, warmups are over. Send in the retiarius and let's see what happens!

jakderrida 2y ago

I recall watching a lecture on Youtube where the lecturer pulled up a picture of the same armor as an example of archaeologists misinterpreting the purpose of what they find. The lecture hall, filled with professionals, started laughing as if it were some obvious well-known mistake of the archaeologist misidentifying it as armor. Still not sure what they all thought it was.

WalterBright 2y ago

In WW2, the Japanese Zero did not have armor on the theory that the lighter weight would make the Zero more maneuverable and that was the best defense a pilot could have. The Zero's first adversary was the P40 Warhawk. The P40 was inferior in every way but one - it had forward armor. The pilots figured out that the way to beat the Zero was a head on attack, with both pilots blasting away. With no armor the Zero would get shredded. The Zero pilots had a pretty hard time of it during the war.

cynusx 2y ago
They were just ahead of the times. Modern fighting jets don't have armour either because missiles blast straight through it anyway.
- fifilura 2y ago
  Being ahead didn't help much? I would not say ahead, rather out of step with the times.
Jensson 2y ago
> The pilots figured out that the way to beat the Zero was a head on attack, with both pilots blasting away. With no armor the Zero would get shredded. The Zero pilots had a pretty hard time of it during the war. Sounds like that lack of armor wasn't an advantage.
- Tao3300 2y ago
  Arms race. It was an advantage until the enemy adapted.

FpUser 2y ago

>"fed roughly 4,500 calories worth of goat cheese, roasted meat, olives, bread, water, wine ..." Where do I sign up ...

jessepasley 2y ago

I initially read 'Dendra Armor' as 'Daedra Armor'

xarope 2y ago

For the marines, I think wearing a kevlar helmet, LBV (or whatever they are using nowadays) with water, ammo etc, would already be 30+lbs (not including plate), so I suspect the marines would be like "45lbs, is that it?"

swiftcoder 2y ago

> fed roughly 4,500 calories worth of goat cheese, roasted meat, olives, bread, water, wine, and other Bronze Age culinary delicacies Where do I sign up?

petesergeant 2y ago
Keep an eye out for signs that say ταβέρνα
zolbrek 2y ago
I was thinking this myself.

keiferski 2y ago

The most interesting thing about these old forms of armor to me is how they were developed in the first place. Did craftsmen work with warriors to test and fine-tune which designs worked and which didn’t? Or maybe it was more of an evolutionary process, whereby the winners of a conflict (which they won by having better armor) became the rulers, and therefore their designs were considered the best and copied?

asadotzler 2y ago
Dudes get back from a war and say "hey, this one guy that killed most of us had a neat-o neck piece, can we have those and see if they help?"

Ekaros 2y ago

Ceremonial armour feels so strange concept. For something to become ceremonial it must first have real use case. You don't just go around inventing things from zero. Maybe you will scale it up and make it more impressive, but to have meaning it must first at some point had some real use.

1123581321 2y ago
That’s a good explanation of their origin. Ceremonial objects could be preserved and their progenitors lost, due to material reuse, ceremonial objects being well preserved through different storage methods, or something else. However, usually objects of ceremonial use are also functional, just too expensive for everyone to use. E.g. we would tend to find an especially engraved bowl in ruins of a religious building—-it could still hold soup or beer in a pinch.

ajuc 2y ago

> The composition of this ordeal was inferred from statistical analysis of fights in The Iliad. Each of those scenarios included a fair share of spear throws, sword strikes, shooting arrows, and spear strikes, all performed in full body armor. Overall, the whole day was effectively a long, high-intensity interval exercise. I love the idea of people 2000 years from now doing statistical analysis of Rambo movies to deduce how wars were fought in 20th century.

naijaboiler 2y ago
Can 1 man really beat a battalion by himself

btbuildem 2y ago

It looks so silly! But there's an equally silly chestnut among archeologists, that when an artifact is found and the boffins can't divine it's purpose, the go-to answer is "religious use" or "ceremonial". The neck part of the armour is actually quite clever on closer inspection -- no complex moving part, doesn't restrict the wearer's head movements (well, other than looking at your own feet I guess) and seems to offer robust protection. It reminds me somewhat of the benevolent aliens in Fifth Element.

philbin 2y ago

[dead]

iambateman 2y ago

In 3000 years, what of our culture will be wrongly associated with usage in a religious ceremony? My money is on the cybertruck

ertian 2y ago
I mean it is largely ceremonial... (along with all those F-250s in the middle of a crowded city)
doublepg23 2y ago
The bathroom mirror.

082349872349872 2y ago

submission linking to actual paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40527844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40527844

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

rrr_oh_man 2y ago

170 fucking ad partners. Jesus fucking Christ.

HeckFeck 2y ago
Like the loaves and the fishes, they multiply.