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I think this is really a spectrum and they are focusing on some more extreme aspects of it. But it is definitely not just an Asian thing and I believe to some d

by ilaksh 2y ago

I think this is really a spectrum and they are focusing on some more extreme aspects of it. But it is definitely not just an Asian thing and I believe to some degree this type of social withdrawal has affected perhaps a very significant portion of our society. I have definitely been socially isolated my entire life to some degree or another. But much more so in adulthood. Again, I suggest that this is relatively common, not something that happens to only a few million people. One aspect that is being glossed over is the amount of socialization or let's call it "pseudo-social" activity that is happening over the internet for these people. I'm someone who generally does not have friends, leaves the apartment literally only a handful of times per month to take the garbage out and maybe buy groceries once or twice a month if I am trying to save money versus Instacart. For me it comes down to money. I have a health issue that makes me fatigued etc. and don't have money for health insurance. I don't have money to go to restaurants or otherwise waste going out. So I stay home. Because I'm always in a poor health and financial state, I feel uncomfortable trying to do any "real" socialization. But I have always been trying one way or another to get to a point where I have a "real" online business that allows me to actually thrive. Such as buying a car and a house, getting health insurance and addressing my health issues, or paying taxes. But what I have managed so far is usually just enough to scrape by. There have been some minor successes here and there but rarely have I ever felt like I had enough to truly meet my basic needs such as the health concerns or financial stability. Anyway, I think it's easy to get in a position with health and financial challenges, maybe just a series of low-paying contracts, where some degree of social isolation is just practical and realistic.

antegamisou 2y ago
I'm sorry for what you've been through and I hope your health gets better. However I believe you've phrased the following a bit poorly, although I'm sure unintentionally: some degree of social isolation is just practical and realistic. Unfortunately this leads to connotations that encourage people completely out of touch with the ordinary person's lifestyle (billionaires, CEOs etc.) make outrageous claims and dictating how they should navigate life with minimum wage and no insurance e.g. that CEO who said skip breakfast to save money, or HN's favorites that we should just shut up and be content with modern tech automating our creative abilities instead of assisting us with menial tasks. Instead if you had written social isolation is inevitable without controlled financial and health stability, you'd be 100% spot on. Human, social isolation and practical/realistic just don't fit together.
- card_zero 2y ago
  Escaping something that's inevitable is not practical or realistic.
- FormerBandmate 2y ago
  > we should just shut up and be content with modern tech automating our creative abilities instead of assisting us with menial tasks This isn’t true. Dalle and ChatGPT are assists, they don’t really replace anything and make being creative more accessible. AI also helps with tons of menial tasks like code syntax
  - ecjhdnc2025 2y ago
    > Dalle and ChatGPT are assists, they don’t really replace anything and make being creative more accessible. Proponents of these tools can keep saying this, but it doesn’t make it true. Almost nothing these tools can do really helps the creation of art.
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    It absolutely is. I see plenty of AI art used to illustrate websites that would previously have used stock imagery for which someone got paid, even if only a small amount. Even in contexts where it is used as a free gift (ie adding AI art to social media posts that would have just been text before), it has the function of crowding out human made art by its very proliferation. It's like Greshams law for media files. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
monero-xmr 2y ago
There are emotional and mental support groups, churches, community events, and all manner of things you can do for free that may help break your isolation. It takes effort to do this. I know you are struggling, but ultimately no one will help you but yourself, which is a hard pill to swallow.
- tempaccount420 2y ago
  Yet in this article, they were helped without needing to reach out first (a crucial part for a socially withdrawn person). American/European society just chooses to ignore and not help the same kind of people here.
chasil 2y ago
I live in Iowa, and I had a roommate who just stopped going to work one day. I learned after talking to her that she had done this before. In talking to her, it seemed to me a mix of anxiety and depression with a focus on agoraphobia. Her family from several hundred miles came to retrieve her when they contacted me. She asked to move back in later, but I declined. I saw her start a new career some years afterwards. I don't know if the "laying flat/tang ping" movement in China, or the issues of the people in the article, are completely separate from this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- wholemodern 2y ago
  the laying flat movement has mostly to do with lack of jobs/opportunity for young people. - there's a societal trend to not hire people over the age of 30-35 in China. after months of looking for work, they've given up - there's an unofficial 70% youth unemployment rate, and with 12 million new grads each year and intense competition for government work, sometimes hundred of applicants for a single stable government spot, the new grads give up - the young generation has realized that no house/car/marriage/kid (没房没车没妻子) is a good way to live, and there's no pressure on them to create a life. so they lay flat. thus the abysmal marriage/child rate in China, which is near the bottom of world ranking - the new grads don't want to work in a factory, day or night shift, for $2/hour. - if the workers are in 1st tier cities, they can barely save up any money working and living there, due to the recent 50% reduction in wages ($1000/month -> $500/month) and increased spending on necessities. so it's easier for them to just not work and live off of parents.
  - spywaregorilla 2y ago
    > there's a societal trend to not hire people over the age of 30-35 in China > there's an unofficial 70% youth unemployment rate > , due to the recent 50% reduction in wages I couldn't find anything on these points. The second one seems completely unbelievable while also being at odds with the first claim. What are you referring to?
Anotheroneagain 2y ago
Those people have completely taken over the west. You suffer alone in hopeless isolation if you are not like them. It isn't that you somehow didn't succeed - the majority simply prefers to be alone. Only the fact that the majority is "individualist" like this makes it much less obvious.
underlipton 2y ago
"Money" has also generally been the issue for me. Not simply the money to get to and enjoy activities. The money to meet (sometimes unrealistic) expectations of physical presentation (including clothing, grooming, the time and energy and diet required to work out) and therefore feel comfortable among people who will judge you for it - including, crucially and as a black man, authorities. The money to keep up with friends who might want to do things you didn't necessarily budget for. The money to feel comfortable with all of this while managing other necessary expenses (including, for some, supporting family). When I had a job, I definitely didn't have the money for all of this, particularly while living in a hoity-toity resort town (and particularly when it became much more hoity and toity and white during the summer). Making rent was much easier (read: possible) when I just went home every day. I have some other thoughts, particularly about how the modern job market makes it more difficult for young people to build durable relationships at work (which, as much as legal might abhor it, is indeed one of the avenues through which many young people make friends). Might edit/reply later with those. Suffice it to say, when layoffs disrupt the already imperiled process, you end up with a lot of people entering their late 20s/early 30s with social lives that are exceedingly fragile, if they're even extant.
- orhmeh09 2y ago
  this is a good post about topics people don't discuss enough. thank you for sharing.
- pastage 2y ago
  Money vs. Time. If you need too much money to even be able to socialize that only leads to misery. The best way to socialize is to do projects on your free time with other people, there will always be some who are too tired to work much in their spare time and that is ok as long as you are invested. The big lie is that everyone is a Millionaire and that you have to spend money to socialize. Workers unions have historically in Europe and the US tried to create places where people could socialize without having to spend money. That is something I took advantage of and lent my time to as a young adult, I should spend more money on that now that I have it.
- Xeyz0r 2y ago
paulpauper 2y ago
America has this too. It's homelessness. The drug abuse and mental illness makes it worse though. Unlike the comparably docile hikikomori, drug and alcohol use leads to erratic and aggressive behavior and makes accommodations and treatment impossible, hence homelessness.
- gibbitz 2y ago
  100% this. I think the reason we see these people homeless in the US is due to the myth of the self-sufficiency. That if you can't succeed or fit in it's because you are deficient in some way. It makes it hard to ask for help and it's doubly so if you are introverted to this extreme.
  - Xeyz0r 2y ago
    Ask for help for many people is the hardest thing to do... It should become more normalized
- Xeyz0r 2y ago
  Homelessness is the scariest thing for me. And actually I know that in many cases you became one without your actual influence on it. This problem breaks my heart.
Perenti 2y ago
I know where you're coming from. Chronic ill health can be a really isolated life. I get out once per fortnight to the supermarket, once per month to the pharmacy, once per 6 months to my GP. Other than that I get away from home maybe once every 2 or 3 months. I've had people say they'd go mad living my life. Well when your body works against you you just have to suck it up and deal with it. As for friends, I have very few because I'm angry all the time. Being alone helps not face charges.

by ilaksh 2y ago

antegamisou 2y ago

I'm sorry for what you've been through and I hope your health gets better. However I believe you've phrased the following a bit poorly, although I'm sure unintentionally: some degree of social isolation is just practical and realistic. Unfortunately this leads to connotations that encourage people completely out of touch with the ordinary person's lifestyle (billionaires, CEOs etc.) make outrageous claims and dictating how they should navigate life with minimum wage and no insurance e.g. that CEO who said skip breakfast to save money, or HN's favorites that we should just shut up and be content with modern tech automating our creative abilities instead of assisting us with menial tasks. Instead if you had written social isolation is inevitable without controlled financial and health stability, you'd be 100% spot on. Human, social isolation and practical/realistic just don't fit together.

card_zero 2y ago
Escaping something that's inevitable is not practical or realistic.
FormerBandmate 2y ago
> we should just shut up and be content with modern tech automating our creative abilities instead of assisting us with menial tasks This isn’t true. Dalle and ChatGPT are assists, they don’t really replace anything and make being creative more accessible. AI also helps with tons of menial tasks like code syntax
- ecjhdnc2025 2y ago
  > Dalle and ChatGPT are assists, they don’t really replace anything and make being creative more accessible. Proponents of these tools can keep saying this, but it doesn’t make it true. Almost nothing these tools can do really helps the creation of art.
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  It absolutely is. I see plenty of AI art used to illustrate websites that would previously have used stock imagery for which someone got paid, even if only a small amount. Even in contexts where it is used as a free gift (ie adding AI art to social media posts that would have just been text before), it has the function of crowding out human made art by its very proliferation. It's like Greshams law for media files. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

monero-xmr 2y ago

There are emotional and mental support groups, churches, community events, and all manner of things you can do for free that may help break your isolation. It takes effort to do this. I know you are struggling, but ultimately no one will help you but yourself, which is a hard pill to swallow.

tempaccount420 2y ago
Yet in this article, they were helped without needing to reach out first (a crucial part for a socially withdrawn person). American/European society just chooses to ignore and not help the same kind of people here.

chasil 2y ago

I live in Iowa, and I had a roommate who just stopped going to work one day. I learned after talking to her that she had done this before. In talking to her, it seemed to me a mix of anxiety and depression with a focus on agoraphobia. Her family from several hundred miles came to retrieve her when they contacted me. She asked to move back in later, but I declined. I saw her start a new career some years afterwards. I don't know if the "laying flat/tang ping" movement in China, or the issues of the people in the article, are completely separate from this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
wholemodern 2y ago
the laying flat movement has mostly to do with lack of jobs/opportunity for young people. - there's a societal trend to not hire people over the age of 30-35 in China. after months of looking for work, they've given up - there's an unofficial 70% youth unemployment rate, and with 12 million new grads each year and intense competition for government work, sometimes hundred of applicants for a single stable government spot, the new grads give up - the young generation has realized that no house/car/marriage/kid (没房没车没妻子) is a good way to live, and there's no pressure on them to create a life. so they lay flat. thus the abysmal marriage/child rate in China, which is near the bottom of world ranking - the new grads don't want to work in a factory, day or night shift, for $2/hour. - if the workers are in 1st tier cities, they can barely save up any money working and living there, due to the recent 50% reduction in wages ($1000/month -> $500/month) and increased spending on necessities. so it's easier for them to just not work and live off of parents.
- spywaregorilla 2y ago
  > there's a societal trend to not hire people over the age of 30-35 in China > there's an unofficial 70% youth unemployment rate > , due to the recent 50% reduction in wages I couldn't find anything on these points. The second one seems completely unbelievable while also being at odds with the first claim. What are you referring to?

Anotheroneagain 2y ago

Those people have completely taken over the west. You suffer alone in hopeless isolation if you are not like them. It isn't that you somehow didn't succeed - the majority simply prefers to be alone. Only the fact that the majority is "individualist" like this makes it much less obvious.

underlipton 2y ago

"Money" has also generally been the issue for me. Not simply the money to get to and enjoy activities. The money to meet (sometimes unrealistic) expectations of physical presentation (including clothing, grooming, the time and energy and diet required to work out) and therefore feel comfortable among people who will judge you for it - including, crucially and as a black man, authorities. The money to keep up with friends who might want to do things you didn't necessarily budget for. The money to feel comfortable with all of this while managing other necessary expenses (including, for some, supporting family). When I had a job, I definitely didn't have the money for all of this, particularly while living in a hoity-toity resort town (and particularly when it became much more hoity and toity and white during the summer). Making rent was much easier (read: possible) when I just went home every day. I have some other thoughts, particularly about how the modern job market makes it more difficult for young people to build durable relationships at work (which, as much as legal might abhor it, is indeed one of the avenues through which many young people make friends). Might edit/reply later with those. Suffice it to say, when layoffs disrupt the already imperiled process, you end up with a lot of people entering their late 20s/early 30s with social lives that are exceedingly fragile, if they're even extant.

orhmeh09 2y ago
this is a good post about topics people don't discuss enough. thank you for sharing.
pastage 2y ago
Money vs. Time. If you need too much money to even be able to socialize that only leads to misery. The best way to socialize is to do projects on your free time with other people, there will always be some who are too tired to work much in their spare time and that is ok as long as you are invested. The big lie is that everyone is a Millionaire and that you have to spend money to socialize. Workers unions have historically in Europe and the US tried to create places where people could socialize without having to spend money. That is something I took advantage of and lent my time to as a young adult, I should spend more money on that now that I have it.
Xeyz0r 2y ago

paulpauper 2y ago

America has this too. It's homelessness. The drug abuse and mental illness makes it worse though. Unlike the comparably docile hikikomori, drug and alcohol use leads to erratic and aggressive behavior and makes accommodations and treatment impossible, hence homelessness.

gibbitz 2y ago
100% this. I think the reason we see these people homeless in the US is due to the myth of the self-sufficiency. That if you can't succeed or fit in it's because you are deficient in some way. It makes it hard to ask for help and it's doubly so if you are introverted to this extreme.
- Xeyz0r 2y ago
  Ask for help for many people is the hardest thing to do... It should become more normalized
Xeyz0r 2y ago
Homelessness is the scariest thing for me. And actually I know that in many cases you became one without your actual influence on it. This problem breaks my heart.

Perenti 2y ago

I know where you're coming from. Chronic ill health can be a really isolated life. I get out once per fortnight to the supermarket, once per month to the pharmacy, once per 6 months to my GP. Other than that I get away from home maybe once every 2 or 3 months. I've had people say they'd go mad living my life. Well when your body works against you you just have to suck it up and deal with it. As for friends, I have very few because I'm angry all the time. Being alone helps not face charges.