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Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

225 points by peutetre 2y ago

DangitBobby 2y ago
Half of the stories about billing for unused gas are clearly just theft. Why do consumers have no recourse against companies that steal from them? If I made charges to someone's card for services that weren't rendered, I'd probably go to jail.
- janice1999 2y ago
  It could be worse - Hertz falsely accused hundreds of people of stealing cars which lead to felonies, arrests and jail time. https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusation-stealing-cars-settlement https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...
  - psynister 2y ago
    Holy crap, that is seriously messed up.
  - prawn 2y ago
    Something like this happened to me - I'd rented one of their cars with no return date because I hadn't fully planned out a multi-week trip in the eastern USA. The staff member said this was fine; they'd put in a return date of a week or two and then keep pushing it back. Five weeks later I returned the car and flew back home to Australia. Found letters that had been posted saying that the car hadn't been returned and was considered stolen.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - paranoidrobot 2y ago
      For some of these cases, it was arguably worse. It turns out that when Hertz gets back a vehicle they'd reported as stolen, they might "forget" to tell the cops that. They'd rented a car for a fixed period, and were arrested and jailed for driving a stolen vehicle. They've shown police the lease agreement from Hertz showing they were authorised to drive the vehicle but police either couldn't or wouldn't verify the information with Hertz. If being arrested and jailed for this wasn't bad enough, in some cases Hertz managers were slow to respond to police requests for information - so people have sat in jail for extended periods.
  - xvector 2y ago
    False accusations and convictions ruin people's lives. I'm not sure why these companies are not mandated to pay people's current income and expected income growth over the course of their working lives because it'll probably be hard for these people to ever find a job again. For instance, if I make $500k today, the company should be obligated to pay me this amount every year plus additional compounding interest on that amount in order to account for inflation and expected salary growth over the remainder of my working life. The company should be forced to put this money aside in a trust immediately so I do not have to worry about the company going bankrupt. Company resources and equity ought to be garnished, if necessary, in order to accomplish this. It's frustrating and bizarre to me that people are allowed to ruin others' lives and then they do not have to bear the full consequences of their actions. Surely, if one is found to have ruined someone's life, the least our justice system can do is obligate them to repay in full?
    - jliptzin 2y ago
      Lol, fat chance
      - john01dav 2y ago
        They're saying what SHOULD happen, not what DOES happen.
    - jerbear4328 2y ago
      Wouldn't that incentivize people to try to get companies to "ruin their lives"? If someone had a way to get a well paying income, then get a big company to do the bare minimum that counts as "ruining their lives", they live the rest of their lives comfortably without having to get a job. I think that, in theory, compensating people for life-ruining is obviously the right thing to do. The issue is that it relies on people to be perfect and never try to abuse the system, and if we can assume that, then we can just get rid of law enforcement and become a communist utopia. What is practical is making these companies far more liable than they currently are, though. It is unacceptable that they have no penalties for destroying someone's future.
  - mgerdts 2y ago
    I rented a car from Hertz at SFO. After my trip I tried to file my expense report and found I didn’t have a charge on my credit card and it wasn’t listed in my Hertz account. Looking at the paperwork, I saw they rented it to someone else. Thankfully I had no interactions with the police while driving that car.
  - ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
    e-sign
- threeseed 2y ago
  It's not theft. Rather just regular old big company incompetence. You're dealing with broken automated systems and an out-sourced customer support agent. Wait until LLMs arrive on the scene and further exacerbate the problem.
  - db48x 2y ago
    It is theft too. Theft caused by incompetence and out–sourced customer support is still theft.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      No. Theft requires intent. If we accept that it's incompetence and no one actually intended to apply the fee to an electric vehicle then it is not theft.
      - db48x 2y ago
        I think that a big part of Hertz’s business model is to deliberately overcharge as many of their customers as possible.
      - Repulsion9513 2y ago
        If no one intended to apply the fee to an electric vehicle, then why was the fee applied to an electric vehicle? Moreover why did it happen numerous times? And why was support not immediately like "oh crap lemme fix that"?
  - chipgap98 2y ago
    Incompetence is not a valid justification for theft
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    While I generally agree with your premise, the problem is that when companies realize they can make more money through "old big company incompetence", at best it means they have no incentive to improve, and at worst in means they can maliciously overcharge and then just blame it on "incompetence". I really think government needs to enact laws that make companies compensate people for their time when they have to deal with bureaucratic nightmares like this. Right now companies just get to externalize the costs of their fucks ups onto everyone else.
- unstatusthequo 2y ago
  State Attorney General or Consumer Fraud Departments
- laweijfmvo 2y ago
  at what point does something like this garner class-action attention? most of the money ends up going to the lawyers, though…
  - wahnfrieden 2y ago
    It can get extremely expensive before anything is done. And in fact the high price of it can keep it going, when it’s benefitting those with lobbying power Just take a look at wage theft and federal police theft stats compared with all other forms of robbery in the US - it’s out of control but the only thing that seems to get actioned on is the small shoplifting issue, not the vastly worse forms of theft (per dollar value)
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    Class action is often prohibited through terms that force you to act solely and also they require arbitration. This sort of thing should be banned and made retroactive.
    - eli 2y ago
      Sadly the courts are on the side of large corporate interests.
    - 1123581321 2y ago
      A judge can still approve a class in those conditions.
  - Repulsion9513 2y ago
    When they've made approximately nine digits off of it. After all, they need to be able to keep some of their ill-gotten profits, the lawyers need at least 7 digits (more often 8), the class representatives need perhaps 5-6 digits, and everyone else (who was fleeced out of 3 digits) gets 1 digit.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  As a general rule, people stealing or otherwise breaking the law via companies get cut way more slack than random individuals. Like, Wells Fargo set up millions of fraudulent accounts for its customers, and zero people went to jail. Even if you accept the premise that upper level management somehow didn't know, a certain level of negligence should absolutely lead to prison time when the impact is this is large.
  - hnburnsy 2y ago
    No prison time but one was prosecuted and sentenced to home confinement and community service... >A former top Wells Fargo executive avoided prison time for her role in the bank’s sham accounts scandal, after a federal judge on Friday instead sentenced her to six months of home confinement and three years of probation. She was also ordered to pay a $100,000 fine and perform 120 hours of community service.
    - tw04 2y ago
      She DEFINITELY made more than $100k in stock and bonuses for the fraud.
    - jmpman 2y ago
      Was this the person in HR, who, when the good hearted Wells Fargo’s employees reported the ethical violation, had them terminated? I don’t understand why everyone in their HR department wasn’t immediately terminated and thrown into prison, and forced to pay the salaries of anyone who was fired.
  - discordance 2y ago
    Another classic example is from the 2007–2008 financial crisis, for which there were only two people who were actually charged for their wrong doing: Kareem Serageldin got a 30 month sentence, and Lee Farkas got 30 years but only served 9 and was released because of his "susceptibility to COVID-19 while incarcerated at the Coleman low-security prison in Wildwood" [0][1]. Talk about a lack of culpability. 0: https://www.nationalmortgagenews.com/news/mortgage-fraudster-lee-farkas-out-of-prison-serves-9-of-30-year-bid https://www.nationalmortgagenews.com/news/mortgage-fraudster... 1: https://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/lee-farkas-released-from-prison/ https://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/lee-farkas-released-from-p...
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
  This is small potatoes. Hertz has been actually triggered false arrets of its own customers -some going to jail - due to poorly implemented software logic....[1] And no one at hertz is going to jail [2]. They are settling as usual. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-claims-false-arrests/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-claims-false-arrests/ [2] https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusation-stealing-cars-settlement https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...
  - dylan604 2y ago
    With all of the pitch fork and torches being gathered, who is at fault to point the gather crowd to go after? Is it Hertz for accepting faulty software, or the software devs for designing such broken code and passing it off as production ready? Where was this program made? How many boats will be required to ferry the gathering crowd to the offshored lands? Also, at what point do police stop accepting "stolen" car reports from Hertz? This is such a failure on so many levels, why is Hertz the only ones receiving the hate?
    - jjav 2y ago
      > who is at fault to point the gather crowd to go after? Ultimately I'll point the fault at the district attorney, as they are the ones who decide what is prosecuted and what is not. They take unsubstantiated allegations from hertz and put people to jail, but at the same time don't lift a finger to prosecute the clearly guilty corporations for fraud. So yes, while mistakes are made all around, the ultimate guilty party is the district attorney.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        Have there been any convictions in any of these false cases due to poorly written software? I get being arrested and detained in jail for any length of time is total bullshit. Unless these people cannot post bail after being arraigned, that should be the end of it. Once a defense attorney challenges the case, the DA should be dropping charges. If the DA continues to prosecute, what jury is convicting? So this "going to jail" sounds like it's getting conflated from held until arraignment versus serving time after being found guilty
- Aurornis 2y ago
  > Why do consumers have no recourse against companies that steal from them? Stuff like this is easy to charge back with your credit card company. But in this case, the article makes it clear that the people were able to get the charges reversed by talking to Hertz. It wasn't necessarily convenient, but the funds were returned when a human saw the mistake. > If I made charges to someone's card for services that weren't rendered, I'd probably go to jail. If you entered into an agreement with someone to do business and then accidentally charged them the wrong amount, you would not go to jail. That's what happened here, as annoying as it is. I know this is HN and we're supposed to get our pitchforks out any time a company makes a mistake, but your analogy doesn't hold. Legally, intentional theft is a higher bar than a mistake. You're right that you'd be in trouble if you just started charging random people's credit cards fraudulently, but you're not going to jail if you're doing business with someone and you occasionally make a mistake about the amount when it's time to bill them. (FYI: Billing mistakes happen all the time at scale) If you could prove that someone in Hertz was diabolically masterminding a scheme to knowingly milk money from customers by charging EV drivers for gas, you could have a case. But if Hertz is just accidentally charging a couple people here and there for gas (as appears to be the case from the article) then that's not "stealing". It's just a mistake.
  - jononomo 2y ago
    It wasn't a mistake. It was a pretend mistake.
  - sneak 2y ago
    > Stuff like this is easy to charge back with your credit card company. That's not actually true. This sort of "oh, you never have to pay for services not rendered" is mostly just a fiction. I've had multiple issues with major credit card issuers who refused to persist chargebacks when vendors screwed me. The other issue is that, even if you successfully chargeback against a vendor, oftentimes that vendor is a monopoly or duopoloy, and they will terminate your account and ban any new accounts using the same name or card number, and you'll be screwed.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
- kevinob11 2y ago
  I wonder about this constantly. Why is there such a legal power imbalance between people and companies, especially large companies? If a company wants to charge me extra they just do it, they don't have to provide proof of anything. If I want to resolve the issue I have to call them or my credit card company, neither is simple and has something like a 75% chance of being successful (IME) even if I'm completely right. On two separate occasions a company has charged me for something and after I've made multiple calls and escalations (which of course can only happen during certain hours) they finally refunded me by saying "we'll make a one-time exception as a favor to you" even though they were literally stealing from me. In one case they only finally did it after I contacted the attorney general. Honestly I don't even really care if it was a mistake (which are usually systemic issues) vs intentional, it is theft. In one example Comcast charged me a late fee even though I had autopay set up and they just missed running the charge. I wonder how many people just didn't notice. I've long thought the only solution to these issues is to levy fines (or jail time if intentional theft) large enough to discourage the behavior. If it is still happening, keep raising the fines until it stops.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    > I've long thought the only solution to these issues is to levy fines (or jail time if intentional theft) large enough to discourage the behavior. If it is still happening, keep raising the fines until it stops. We need a corporate death penalty and three strike laws - where three is scaled to the customer base or total monetary damages or whatever. Upon death, any and all assets (including shares of the company, in case of restructuring) go to employee salaries until the company can be wound down.
    - Droobfest 2y ago
      This would only give employees a giant incentive to tank the company this way…
    - pmontra 2y ago
      It's not companies that do this kind of stuff, it's people working at companies. You just jail/fine those people and all the chain of command up to the CEO. That would be an incentive to establish good procedures and not to steal on customers.
- exclusiv 2y ago
  IANA but I understand CLRA in California is very strong for this type of stuff.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Repulsion9513 2y ago
  Welcome to the corporatocracy.
dinobones 2y ago
It’s surprising to me how large businesses can basically steal from people like this with impunity, under the guise of some “fee.” Of course 10 years later there’s a class action lawsuit where everyone gets a check for $23 in the mail, but, at that point what’s the point?
- zdragnar 2y ago
  Why wait for the class action, especially when the claim is plenty small enough to fit into a small claims court? They exist for a reason. If enough people use them, it'll end up costing the company far more than a class action, and you'll get more back too because Lawyers won't suck up 50% of the payment.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    I think you have to go to forced arbitration instead of small claims. That process usually starts with paying a roughly $1000 fee to open the arbitration.
- vkou 2y ago
  Because overcharging someone isn't actually theft, and rarely rises to the level of fraud.
  - jen20 2y ago
    Why is it not theft?
    - vkou 2y ago
      Theft is physically taking your money against your will. Unless they are grabbing cash out of your wallet, or physically grabbing and swiping your card, it's not theft. Fraud is you giving them your money under false pretenses. They falsely claim a service has been provided to you, and are charging you for it, per the agreement that you've entered. Theft is trivial to prove and cops take you straight to jail for it. Fraud is a lot harder, because by the time it gets to the courts, they need to dig through the weeds and determine if it is deception, or just a disagreement about a contract. (It's, uh, also called theft of services when you do it against a service provider. You may want to get in touch with your local legislative body about the unfair nature of this sort of asymmetry, but you'll be wasting your breath.)
userbinator 2y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if other customers renting an ICE car got the EV charge, but obviously won't complain if it's cheaper.
grayhatter 2y ago
someone is overbilled... why is this hacker news?
- ggm 2y ago
  Because it's supported across years, decades even, by maldesigned software systems. The mismatch should be detectable from basic BI. Nobody did because the failure was profitable. Not unlike the UK post office ICT failure in that respect.
grugagag 2y ago
Rented a Hertz and got charged $90 a day for easy pass service whether I drove the car or not (I was camping for a week) and had no way of fighting the charges, some fine print tricked me. For such scams I vowed to never give my business to Hertz again. Ever.
- unstatusthequo 2y ago
  Small claims court. Just depends on your time value of money. Or willingness to screw with them for gigs.
  - grugagag 2y ago
    I was too busy to fight it off, initially called my CC and put stop on charges. Eventually they got my money.
    - busterarm 2y ago
      Reminds me of the time I made the mistake of booking a Hertz rental through Expedia. My rental started on a daylight savings time changeover. _Hertz_ messed up the rental dates on their end of the transaction (by multiple days, even) and would not allow me to modify or cancel the rental. I ended up disputing the charge with Expedia via an AmEx chargeback and lost. AmEx owns 10% of Expedia.
    - mbesto 2y ago
      This is a huge feature of CCs that most people don't recognize. You're paying an extra ~3% to credit card companies in exchange for the ability to dispute a charge. If a merchant (in this case Hertz) accepted cash, you would get an invoice in your hand that you could dispute on the spot and just simply not pay. The reverse would be true for Hertz who could try to sue you for not complying.
      - reaperman 2y ago
        They'd end up doing something like you pay $2000 in cash upfront and then you get the unused portion back at the end, and GDP would lower significantly because most people can't afford to give businesses a line of credit like this.
psynister 2y ago
I have had nothing but bad experiences with Hertz. Unfortunately the corporate rate we get is very low so I'm stuck with them, but it seems like there is always something that goes wrong. I drove out of their facility, had a low tire pressure indicator on, brought it back and they wanted me to sign something saying I was responsible for damage to their tire.
charles_f 2y ago
This is a simple case where it's pretty easy to prove that they made a mistake, but I once got charged for skip the pump, despite a) i had filled in the tank, b) the tank was not even full when I picked the car. Lucky enough I always keep the pump receipts and they ended refunding me, but I'm left to wonder how many people get charged those fees and can't get them reversed
- Yesman85 2y ago
  Every single time I rent a car in Vegas. No matter what company, I get dinged for gas. Keep all my receipts and make a video showing the gauge while dropping off the car. It's just an admin hassle each time.
hiddencost 2y ago
I've also heard people tell similarly bizarre stories (e.g., a non-smoker getting billed a smoking cleaning fee) about Hertz. Given their well publicized financial troubles, I kinda assume they're doing this systematically? I wonder what it would take for some AGs to get involved and send people to jail.
infecto 2y ago
Sadly I think most car rental companies are filled with fine print hell. The one that has bitten me a few times is the minimum miles fee. Rent a car at the airport because it’s cheaper than an Uber. Drive to a friends house and the vehicle never is used until return. Since it is bellow some threshold, 30 miles or so, you get charged a $15-25 fee unless you had shown a receipt for gas.
- CantPickAName 2y ago
  Wow...didn't know this was a thing. I got bit by the opposite where one of my rentals had a maximum miles limit. I use a corporate code that usually includes unlimited mileage but this location didn't offer that. They had a limit of 300km unless you paid extra and since I skip the counter and go directly to the garage to pick a car, I wasn't aware of that. It was only when they emailed me the receipt later that I saw the extra charges.
NelsonMinar 2y ago
I wonder if this depends on the Hertz franchise location? I've rented EVs from Hertz at the Fort Lauderdale airport twice and had a great experience with things costing just what I expected. It was a great way to learn about EVs: my new car is a Volvo C40 mostly because I had such a good experience with a Polestar from Hertz.
- whoiscroberts 2y ago
  Great question and point. I was be surprised if there was not an incentive for the manager at each individual location to push up incidental charges.
  - geraldwhen 2y ago
    Of course there must be. Rental agencies do incur cost to missing gas, car damage, etc, and they must track incident cost accrued vs incidental cost billed to customer. If B < A, someone gets their ass chewed out. To avoid that, they commit fraud and spread the incidental cost on everyone.
- kelnos 2y ago
  I don't think "twice" is enough to be considered data in support of any point when we're talking about millions of total rentals. Even if they screw this up (intentionally or otherwise) with 10% of all rentals, you're still unlikely to have a problem with only two experiences.
time0ut 2y ago
Aside from charging to put gas in an EV, the amounts they are charging seem really high. How could filling a sedan with gas cost $200 to $400? That’s like 10x what the actual gas costs retail at the pump.
- kevingadd 2y ago
  If you check what rental companies charge for gas when you pick up a car, they typically list something like $12/gallon here if you don't prepay, and something like $5-7/gallon if you "buy the tank". This vs maybe $3-4/gal at the nearest station.
- kelnos 2y ago
  You're paying for convenience. The deal they make with you up front is that you get to not worry about the tank, but in return you pay a super inflated rate for the gas. Plus you pay for a full tank, even if you return it at 3/4 and it only takes a few gallons to fill it. I get that some people just don't have the time (or executive function?) to deal with refilling before return on some trips, or they're so rich that they just don't care, but otherwise I just do not get why anyone would accept this option.
  - reaperman 2y ago
    A lot of car rentals go on a corporate tab. When high-impact employees are traveling, their time is very valuable. An extra 20 minutes for the employee to spend with the customer on the last day could easily be worth $150 to their employer. Some businesses are happy to pay inflated prices for gas just in case their employee needs that extra 20 minutes onsite before returning to the airport.
    - s0rce 2y ago
      Also better than missing a flight if you end up running late for whatever reason.
  - listenallyall 2y ago
    Actually the deal, typically, is that if you buy a full tank up front, the per-gallon price is at par or even a bit cheaper than local gas stations, so you save money and gain convenience (that's the pitch). By contrast, if you don't buy gas up front, and don't return the car full, that's when they charge you an enormous per-gallon price. That price is highly profitable and also makes the "up-front" option seem more appealing. (Just take 10 minutes and return the car full, and don't worry about any of this)
m463 2y ago
Receipt later had a $100 "clean fee - interior ACCEPTED" after renting a car for two weeks. what? I called customer service and they quickly removed it, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. To be clear, there was rain so maybe a smudge of dirt near pedals, but car was kept clean throughout.
gessha 2y ago
If the Seinfeld episode about rental cars was made nowadays, it would be in a Hertz office (or tactically renamed version like Hearts or Hurts).
skykooler 2y ago
All my worst car rental experiences involved Herz.
hnburnsy 2y ago
Hertz used to be the best, I think I heard that PE gutted it, not sure, I avoid it at all costs.
- listenallyall 2y ago
  Not PE, it was mostly a former CEO. https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikakelton/2019/05/02/hertz-makes-a-rare-move-by-suing-former-executives/?sh=2584f4de33e7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikakelton/2019/05/02/hertz-ma...
kelnos 2y ago
As much as services like Turo and Getaround have their own gotchas[0], this sort of thing is why I try to use them instead of the legacy car rental companies, when possible. I've had nothing but good experiences with Turo (15 or so rentals, ranging from a single day to a 2-week rental). With the legacy rental companies, the best experiences are barely mediocre. [0] One big one is that credit cards that offer insurance for rental cars won't cover services like these.
- rasz 2y ago
  Turo is famous for scam fake vomit cleaning fees.
- nicce 2y ago
  I just found the Turo first time, and the prices seems to be like 4 times more? At least if you rent longer durations.
  - RandallBrown 2y ago
    That must be pretty location dependent. When I've used it the prices were usually dramatically lower, especially if you want something specific like AWD.
    - nicce 2y ago
      That is true, prices were lower for some special vehicles (e.g. 7 seats), but for traditional ones the were much higher.
- sf_rob 2y ago
  The only EV I’ve rented from Turo was the opposite experience. They gave me the car at 75%, they capped charging at 90% in settings, then they charged me for bringing it back at 70% (which was just past their threshold but considering I could only charge it to 90% that should be the baseline).
brikym 2y ago
Missed opportunity to put 'gaslighting' in the title.
coleca 2y ago
Hadn’t rented from Hertz in many years until last week. Made sure to fill the tank back up as high as it would go just in case. Get thru security at the airport and already had a $26 charge for fuel. Still working on getting this fixed. Funny how they can charge within 5-7 minutes but they take 5-7 business days to process a refund.
- jonhohle 2y ago
  Good luck. I’m fighting them from the beginning of April because they failed to check the car in properly (I asked for a receipt and they said they couldn’t print one at the return, despite being in the receipt line). I got charged for the next renters days, late fees, recovery fees, and tolls accrued by them. They agreed to refund (which still hasn’t happened) and a few days later they charged me for not returning the car full (it was). Fortunately for us it’s just a credit card charge that’s being disputed. For friends of ours they reported the car stolen and filed a police report. This doesn’t seem like how a legitimate business operates, but more like a syndicate. While I understand individual locations are franchises, they have eerily similar catastrophic failures that seem to regularly occur.
- gdudeman 2y ago
  I recommend disputing the charge with your credit card. My credit card refunded my Hertz bill in under five minutes of clicking online.
  - mendelmaleh 2y ago
    If they did a chargeback, Hertz might dispute it, send you collection letters and terminate your account.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      It's funny you should say that, because OP actually tells a more complete version of the story here [0]. Hertz did send them a new bill with a threat to send it to collections if it weren't paid. Maybe still a win in the end because the incorrect charge was removed, but I get really uncomfortable with how casually people recommend chargebacks on this forum. They're not intended to get you out of charges that the other party can prove you did agree to pay. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40412246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40412246
SoftTalker 2y ago
When people suggest owning an EV for daily use and renting a gas car for occasional long trips, this is exactly why that's not a attractive idea for most people. Even in the best case scenario, renting a car is a time-consuming hassle and you have to navigate high pressure tactics on buying upgrades, fuel, insurance, etc.
- epcoa 2y ago
  > Even in the best case scenario, renting a car is a time-consuming hassle No that’s the worst case scenario. > you have to navigate high pressure tactics on buying upgrades, fuel, insurance, etc. No you don’t. In the US, the major reputable companies allow you to register your DL and insurance, pick your default fuel preference. 20 minutes prior the reservation you get a list of available cars and proceed directly to the car. You then scan a QR code at the exit, maybe you show your DL to a guy at the gate, who is in no position to sell anything. This is for almost all airport locations and many corporate locations. Even when you see an agent.. High pressure tactics? That’s impossible, they have no leverage. It’s not like buying a hot new car or something. The insurance is usually worthless to you so you aren’t losing anything by walking away. Just say no? A simple no always works. Carry a credit card with primary rental insurance. I have had a sales person try to give some bullshit song and dance even when I politely tell them I have primary insurance on my card. It’s a simple “no, not interested.” What are they going to do?
  - millzlane 2y ago
    Rented from enterprise last month. I booked a Sports Car Rental (Dodge Challenger or Similar). I got there and they only had a miata. Certainly a cool car. But it's too small for me. I needed a Dodge Challenger or similar. So I ended up with the slowest truck imaginable with no fuel in it. They wouldn't give me my company's corp. rate even though I had my work badge and this rental was for a work training in DC. Oh! and I brought my own EZ pass, but somehow the enterprise car somehow still charged me for tolls. But not without the extra convenience fee. Rental car companies here suck.
    - 2y ago
darepublic 2y ago
Wonder if these were due to software bugs
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  User and/or software errors are the likely cause. It could have been a bad UX that led to bad input, or staff that wasn't very trained/diligent, or a bug that added the gas charge anyways (and didn't prevent it on EVs).
sundvor 2y ago
Don't attribute to malice what can usually be explained by sheer incompetence, sure, but this pushes the case for both.
dawnerd 2y ago
I make sure the car is fully checked in when I drop off and I get a recipe and verify before I leave that all is good. Last year they tried to charge me for a tiny chip in the window that I hadn’t seen before. They tried to force me to fill out a form admitting fault for insurance but refused. Nothing came of it and have rented since no problem.
s0rce 2y ago
Hertz told me I would be charged if the car wasn't returned charged, I asked how much and they couldn't say. I was also confused because it wasn't clear how to charge at the airport and that was very inconvenient, I'd rather charge the night before near my hotel. No answer but they said its fine to return it 85% charged. I went out to get the car and the guy said I needed to return it 80% charged. I got in and it was less than 80% charged... wonderful experience.
constantlm 2y ago
I've seen enough negative Hertz-related discussions on HN over the past few months to entirely avoid them going forward.
gdudeman 2y ago
I got a $80 bill from Hertz for returning a compact car without gas. I had returned the car with a full tank of gas though! There is no way to resolve this on the phone, so I filled out their online form to dispute the charge. After not hearing from Hertz for 2 days, I disputed the charge with my credit card. The credit card instantly refunded the entire cost of the rental. Within 12 hours of the refund, I got an email from Hertz saying they were sorry about the accidental charge and that they'd give me a free one day rental. Ultimately they sent me a bill for the cost of the rental minus the gas and threatened to take me to collections if I didn't pay it. I never got my free rental.
msadowski 2y ago
One thing I learned really quickly renting in Europe is to take pictures of the rental before driving off. Last time I rented a car there was a huge scratch on the side that wasn’t included in their pickup form. When I returned the car they were ready to bill me for it until I showed the picture and their response was: “OK, no worries then, all is good”. From the reviews I’ve been reading people often get charged this way and I’m wondering how many people end up paying for the same damage.
- YZF 2y ago
  I just had this in Hawaii (Big Island). Dollar car rental dude checks my car when I return it and decided some scratch on the fender was new (I'm pretty sure it was not). I had full insurance and I told him he can figure it out with the insurance company, that I was in rush to catch my flight, and he can do whatever he wants. They didn't do anything. They're just looking for some sucker they can charge extra on some random thing. I've had a lot of rental car experiences. Usually it's fine. Taking photos sounds like a good idea.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
surfingdino 2y ago
Mercedes Benz will keep charging you for subscription to their GPS service after you sell the car, because "you signed up for the full length of the contract". How is that legal?

225 points by peutetre 2y ago

Half of the stories about billing for unused gas are clearly just theft. Why do consumers have no recourse against companies that steal from them? If I made charges to someone's card for services that weren't rendered, I'd probably go to jail.

janice1999 2y ago
It could be worse - Hertz falsely accused hundreds of people of stealing cars which lead to felonies, arrests and jail time. https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusation-stealing-cars-settlement https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...
- psynister 2y ago
  Holy crap, that is seriously messed up.
- prawn 2y ago
  Something like this happened to me - I'd rented one of their cars with no return date because I hadn't fully planned out a multi-week trip in the eastern USA. The staff member said this was fine; they'd put in a return date of a week or two and then keep pushing it back. Five weeks later I returned the car and flew back home to Australia. Found letters that had been posted saying that the car hadn't been returned and was considered stolen.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - paranoidrobot 2y ago
    For some of these cases, it was arguably worse. It turns out that when Hertz gets back a vehicle they'd reported as stolen, they might "forget" to tell the cops that. They'd rented a car for a fixed period, and were arrested and jailed for driving a stolen vehicle. They've shown police the lease agreement from Hertz showing they were authorised to drive the vehicle but police either couldn't or wouldn't verify the information with Hertz. If being arrested and jailed for this wasn't bad enough, in some cases Hertz managers were slow to respond to police requests for information - so people have sat in jail for extended periods.
- xvector 2y ago
  False accusations and convictions ruin people's lives. I'm not sure why these companies are not mandated to pay people's current income and expected income growth over the course of their working lives because it'll probably be hard for these people to ever find a job again. For instance, if I make $500k today, the company should be obligated to pay me this amount every year plus additional compounding interest on that amount in order to account for inflation and expected salary growth over the remainder of my working life. The company should be forced to put this money aside in a trust immediately so I do not have to worry about the company going bankrupt. Company resources and equity ought to be garnished, if necessary, in order to accomplish this. It's frustrating and bizarre to me that people are allowed to ruin others' lives and then they do not have to bear the full consequences of their actions. Surely, if one is found to have ruined someone's life, the least our justice system can do is obligate them to repay in full?
  - jliptzin 2y ago
    Lol, fat chance
    - john01dav 2y ago
      They're saying what SHOULD happen, not what DOES happen.
  - jerbear4328 2y ago
    Wouldn't that incentivize people to try to get companies to "ruin their lives"? If someone had a way to get a well paying income, then get a big company to do the bare minimum that counts as "ruining their lives", they live the rest of their lives comfortably without having to get a job. I think that, in theory, compensating people for life-ruining is obviously the right thing to do. The issue is that it relies on people to be perfect and never try to abuse the system, and if we can assume that, then we can just get rid of law enforcement and become a communist utopia. What is practical is making these companies far more liable than they currently are, though. It is unacceptable that they have no penalties for destroying someone's future.
- mgerdts 2y ago
  I rented a car from Hertz at SFO. After my trip I tried to file my expense report and found I didn’t have a charge on my credit card and it wasn’t listed in my Hertz account. Looking at the paperwork, I saw they rented it to someone else. Thankfully I had no interactions with the police while driving that car.
- ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
  e-sign
threeseed 2y ago
It's not theft. Rather just regular old big company incompetence. You're dealing with broken automated systems and an out-sourced customer support agent. Wait until LLMs arrive on the scene and further exacerbate the problem.
- db48x 2y ago
  It is theft too. Theft caused by incompetence and out–sourced customer support is still theft.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    No. Theft requires intent. If we accept that it's incompetence and no one actually intended to apply the fee to an electric vehicle then it is not theft.
    - db48x 2y ago
      I think that a big part of Hertz’s business model is to deliberately overcharge as many of their customers as possible.
    - Repulsion9513 2y ago
      If no one intended to apply the fee to an electric vehicle, then why was the fee applied to an electric vehicle? Moreover why did it happen numerous times? And why was support not immediately like "oh crap lemme fix that"?
- chipgap98 2y ago
  Incompetence is not a valid justification for theft
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  While I generally agree with your premise, the problem is that when companies realize they can make more money through "old big company incompetence", at best it means they have no incentive to improve, and at worst in means they can maliciously overcharge and then just blame it on "incompetence". I really think government needs to enact laws that make companies compensate people for their time when they have to deal with bureaucratic nightmares like this. Right now companies just get to externalize the costs of their fucks ups onto everyone else.
unstatusthequo 2y ago
State Attorney General or Consumer Fraud Departments
laweijfmvo 2y ago
at what point does something like this garner class-action attention? most of the money ends up going to the lawyers, though…
- wahnfrieden 2y ago
  It can get extremely expensive before anything is done. And in fact the high price of it can keep it going, when it’s benefitting those with lobbying power Just take a look at wage theft and federal police theft stats compared with all other forms of robbery in the US - it’s out of control but the only thing that seems to get actioned on is the small shoplifting issue, not the vastly worse forms of theft (per dollar value)
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Class action is often prohibited through terms that force you to act solely and also they require arbitration. This sort of thing should be banned and made retroactive.
  - eli 2y ago
    Sadly the courts are on the side of large corporate interests.
  - 1123581321 2y ago
    A judge can still approve a class in those conditions.
- Repulsion9513 2y ago
  When they've made approximately nine digits off of it. After all, they need to be able to keep some of their ill-gotten profits, the lawyers need at least 7 digits (more often 8), the class representatives need perhaps 5-6 digits, and everyone else (who was fleeced out of 3 digits) gets 1 digit.
TulliusCicero 2y ago
As a general rule, people stealing or otherwise breaking the law via companies get cut way more slack than random individuals. Like, Wells Fargo set up millions of fraudulent accounts for its customers, and zero people went to jail. Even if you accept the premise that upper level management somehow didn't know, a certain level of negligence should absolutely lead to prison time when the impact is this is large.
- hnburnsy 2y ago
  No prison time but one was prosecuted and sentenced to home confinement and community service... >A former top Wells Fargo executive avoided prison time for her role in the bank’s sham accounts scandal, after a federal judge on Friday instead sentenced her to six months of home confinement and three years of probation. She was also ordered to pay a $100,000 fine and perform 120 hours of community service.
  - tw04 2y ago
    She DEFINITELY made more than $100k in stock and bonuses for the fraud.
  - jmpman 2y ago
    Was this the person in HR, who, when the good hearted Wells Fargo’s employees reported the ethical violation, had them terminated? I don’t understand why everyone in their HR department wasn’t immediately terminated and thrown into prison, and forced to pay the salaries of anyone who was fired.
- discordance 2y ago
  Another classic example is from the 2007–2008 financial crisis, for which there were only two people who were actually charged for their wrong doing: Kareem Serageldin got a 30 month sentence, and Lee Farkas got 30 years but only served 9 and was released because of his "susceptibility to COVID-19 while incarcerated at the Coleman low-security prison in Wildwood" [0][1]. Talk about a lack of culpability. 0: https://www.nationalmortgagenews.com/news/mortgage-fraudster-lee-farkas-out-of-prison-serves-9-of-30-year-bid https://www.nationalmortgagenews.com/news/mortgage-fraudster... 1: https://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/lee-farkas-released-from-prison/ https://www.mortgagefraudblog.com/lee-farkas-released-from-p...
IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
This is small potatoes. Hertz has been actually triggered false arrets of its own customers -some going to jail - due to poorly implemented software logic....[1] And no one at hertz is going to jail [2]. They are settling as usual. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-claims-false-arrests/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hertz-claims-false-arrests/ [2] https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusation-stealing-cars-settlement https://www.npr.org/2022/12/06/1140998674/hertz-false-accusa...
- dylan604 2y ago
  With all of the pitch fork and torches being gathered, who is at fault to point the gather crowd to go after? Is it Hertz for accepting faulty software, or the software devs for designing such broken code and passing it off as production ready? Where was this program made? How many boats will be required to ferry the gathering crowd to the offshored lands? Also, at what point do police stop accepting "stolen" car reports from Hertz? This is such a failure on so many levels, why is Hertz the only ones receiving the hate?
  - jjav 2y ago
    > who is at fault to point the gather crowd to go after? Ultimately I'll point the fault at the district attorney, as they are the ones who decide what is prosecuted and what is not. They take unsubstantiated allegations from hertz and put people to jail, but at the same time don't lift a finger to prosecute the clearly guilty corporations for fraud. So yes, while mistakes are made all around, the ultimate guilty party is the district attorney.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      Have there been any convictions in any of these false cases due to poorly written software? I get being arrested and detained in jail for any length of time is total bullshit. Unless these people cannot post bail after being arraigned, that should be the end of it. Once a defense attorney challenges the case, the DA should be dropping charges. If the DA continues to prosecute, what jury is convicting? So this "going to jail" sounds like it's getting conflated from held until arraignment versus serving time after being found guilty
Aurornis 2y ago
> Why do consumers have no recourse against companies that steal from them? Stuff like this is easy to charge back with your credit card company. But in this case, the article makes it clear that the people were able to get the charges reversed by talking to Hertz. It wasn't necessarily convenient, but the funds were returned when a human saw the mistake. > If I made charges to someone's card for services that weren't rendered, I'd probably go to jail. If you entered into an agreement with someone to do business and then accidentally charged them the wrong amount, you would not go to jail. That's what happened here, as annoying as it is. I know this is HN and we're supposed to get our pitchforks out any time a company makes a mistake, but your analogy doesn't hold. Legally, intentional theft is a higher bar than a mistake. You're right that you'd be in trouble if you just started charging random people's credit cards fraudulently, but you're not going to jail if you're doing business with someone and you occasionally make a mistake about the amount when it's time to bill them. (FYI: Billing mistakes happen all the time at scale) If you could prove that someone in Hertz was diabolically masterminding a scheme to knowingly milk money from customers by charging EV drivers for gas, you could have a case. But if Hertz is just accidentally charging a couple people here and there for gas (as appears to be the case from the article) then that's not "stealing". It's just a mistake.
- jononomo 2y ago
  It wasn't a mistake. It was a pretend mistake.
- sneak 2y ago
  > Stuff like this is easy to charge back with your credit card company. That's not actually true. This sort of "oh, you never have to pay for services not rendered" is mostly just a fiction. I've had multiple issues with major credit card issuers who refused to persist chargebacks when vendors screwed me. The other issue is that, even if you successfully chargeback against a vendor, oftentimes that vendor is a monopoly or duopoloy, and they will terminate your account and ban any new accounts using the same name or card number, and you'll be screwed.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
kevinob11 2y ago
I wonder about this constantly. Why is there such a legal power imbalance between people and companies, especially large companies? If a company wants to charge me extra they just do it, they don't have to provide proof of anything. If I want to resolve the issue I have to call them or my credit card company, neither is simple and has something like a 75% chance of being successful (IME) even if I'm completely right. On two separate occasions a company has charged me for something and after I've made multiple calls and escalations (which of course can only happen during certain hours) they finally refunded me by saying "we'll make a one-time exception as a favor to you" even though they were literally stealing from me. In one case they only finally did it after I contacted the attorney general. Honestly I don't even really care if it was a mistake (which are usually systemic issues) vs intentional, it is theft. In one example Comcast charged me a late fee even though I had autopay set up and they just missed running the charge. I wonder how many people just didn't notice. I've long thought the only solution to these issues is to levy fines (or jail time if intentional theft) large enough to discourage the behavior. If it is still happening, keep raising the fines until it stops.
- throwup238 2y ago
  > I've long thought the only solution to these issues is to levy fines (or jail time if intentional theft) large enough to discourage the behavior. If it is still happening, keep raising the fines until it stops. We need a corporate death penalty and three strike laws - where three is scaled to the customer base or total monetary damages or whatever. Upon death, any and all assets (including shares of the company, in case of restructuring) go to employee salaries until the company can be wound down.
  - Droobfest 2y ago
    This would only give employees a giant incentive to tank the company this way…
  - pmontra 2y ago
    It's not companies that do this kind of stuff, it's people working at companies. You just jail/fine those people and all the chain of command up to the CEO. That would be an incentive to establish good procedures and not to steal on customers.
exclusiv 2y ago
IANA but I understand CLRA in California is very strong for this type of stuff.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Repulsion9513 2y ago
Welcome to the corporatocracy.

dinobones 2y ago

It’s surprising to me how large businesses can basically steal from people like this with impunity, under the guise of some “fee.” Of course 10 years later there’s a class action lawsuit where everyone gets a check for $23 in the mail, but, at that point what’s the point?

zdragnar 2y ago
Why wait for the class action, especially when the claim is plenty small enough to fit into a small claims court? They exist for a reason. If enough people use them, it'll end up costing the company far more than a class action, and you'll get more back too because Lawyers won't suck up 50% of the payment.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  I think you have to go to forced arbitration instead of small claims. That process usually starts with paying a roughly $1000 fee to open the arbitration.
vkou 2y ago
Because overcharging someone isn't actually theft, and rarely rises to the level of fraud.
- jen20 2y ago
  Why is it not theft?
  - vkou 2y ago
    Theft is physically taking your money against your will. Unless they are grabbing cash out of your wallet, or physically grabbing and swiping your card, it's not theft. Fraud is you giving them your money under false pretenses. They falsely claim a service has been provided to you, and are charging you for it, per the agreement that you've entered. Theft is trivial to prove and cops take you straight to jail for it. Fraud is a lot harder, because by the time it gets to the courts, they need to dig through the weeds and determine if it is deception, or just a disagreement about a contract. (It's, uh, also called theft of services when you do it against a service provider. You may want to get in touch with your local legislative body about the unfair nature of this sort of asymmetry, but you'll be wasting your breath.)

userbinator 2y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if other customers renting an ICE car got the EV charge, but obviously won't complain if it's cheaper.

grayhatter 2y ago

someone is overbilled... why is this hacker news?

ggm 2y ago
Because it's supported across years, decades even, by maldesigned software systems. The mismatch should be detectable from basic BI. Nobody did because the failure was profitable. Not unlike the UK post office ICT failure in that respect.

grugagag 2y ago

Rented a Hertz and got charged $90 a day for easy pass service whether I drove the car or not (I was camping for a week) and had no way of fighting the charges, some fine print tricked me. For such scams I vowed to never give my business to Hertz again. Ever.

unstatusthequo 2y ago
Small claims court. Just depends on your time value of money. Or willingness to screw with them for gigs.
- grugagag 2y ago
  I was too busy to fight it off, initially called my CC and put stop on charges. Eventually they got my money.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    Reminds me of the time I made the mistake of booking a Hertz rental through Expedia. My rental started on a daylight savings time changeover. _Hertz_ messed up the rental dates on their end of the transaction (by multiple days, even) and would not allow me to modify or cancel the rental. I ended up disputing the charge with Expedia via an AmEx chargeback and lost. AmEx owns 10% of Expedia.
  - mbesto 2y ago
    This is a huge feature of CCs that most people don't recognize. You're paying an extra ~3% to credit card companies in exchange for the ability to dispute a charge. If a merchant (in this case Hertz) accepted cash, you would get an invoice in your hand that you could dispute on the spot and just simply not pay. The reverse would be true for Hertz who could try to sue you for not complying.
    - reaperman 2y ago
      They'd end up doing something like you pay $2000 in cash upfront and then you get the unused portion back at the end, and GDP would lower significantly because most people can't afford to give businesses a line of credit like this.

psynister 2y ago

I have had nothing but bad experiences with Hertz. Unfortunately the corporate rate we get is very low so I'm stuck with them, but it seems like there is always something that goes wrong. I drove out of their facility, had a low tire pressure indicator on, brought it back and they wanted me to sign something saying I was responsible for damage to their tire.

charles_f 2y ago

This is a simple case where it's pretty easy to prove that they made a mistake, but I once got charged for skip the pump, despite a) i had filled in the tank, b) the tank was not even full when I picked the car. Lucky enough I always keep the pump receipts and they ended refunding me, but I'm left to wonder how many people get charged those fees and can't get them reversed

Yesman85 2y ago
Every single time I rent a car in Vegas. No matter what company, I get dinged for gas. Keep all my receipts and make a video showing the gauge while dropping off the car. It's just an admin hassle each time.

hiddencost 2y ago

I've also heard people tell similarly bizarre stories (e.g., a non-smoker getting billed a smoking cleaning fee) about Hertz. Given their well publicized financial troubles, I kinda assume they're doing this systematically? I wonder what it would take for some AGs to get involved and send people to jail.

infecto 2y ago

Sadly I think most car rental companies are filled with fine print hell. The one that has bitten me a few times is the minimum miles fee. Rent a car at the airport because it’s cheaper than an Uber. Drive to a friends house and the vehicle never is used until return. Since it is bellow some threshold, 30 miles or so, you get charged a $15-25 fee unless you had shown a receipt for gas.

CantPickAName 2y ago
Wow...didn't know this was a thing. I got bit by the opposite where one of my rentals had a maximum miles limit. I use a corporate code that usually includes unlimited mileage but this location didn't offer that. They had a limit of 300km unless you paid extra and since I skip the counter and go directly to the garage to pick a car, I wasn't aware of that. It was only when they emailed me the receipt later that I saw the extra charges.

NelsonMinar 2y ago

I wonder if this depends on the Hertz franchise location? I've rented EVs from Hertz at the Fort Lauderdale airport twice and had a great experience with things costing just what I expected. It was a great way to learn about EVs: my new car is a Volvo C40 mostly because I had such a good experience with a Polestar from Hertz.

whoiscroberts 2y ago
Great question and point. I was be surprised if there was not an incentive for the manager at each individual location to push up incidental charges.
- geraldwhen 2y ago
  Of course there must be. Rental agencies do incur cost to missing gas, car damage, etc, and they must track incident cost accrued vs incidental cost billed to customer. If B < A, someone gets their ass chewed out. To avoid that, they commit fraud and spread the incidental cost on everyone.
kelnos 2y ago
I don't think "twice" is enough to be considered data in support of any point when we're talking about millions of total rentals. Even if they screw this up (intentionally or otherwise) with 10% of all rentals, you're still unlikely to have a problem with only two experiences.

time0ut 2y ago

Aside from charging to put gas in an EV, the amounts they are charging seem really high. How could filling a sedan with gas cost $200 to $400? That’s like 10x what the actual gas costs retail at the pump.

kevingadd 2y ago
If you check what rental companies charge for gas when you pick up a car, they typically list something like $12/gallon here if you don't prepay, and something like $5-7/gallon if you "buy the tank". This vs maybe $3-4/gal at the nearest station.
kelnos 2y ago
You're paying for convenience. The deal they make with you up front is that you get to not worry about the tank, but in return you pay a super inflated rate for the gas. Plus you pay for a full tank, even if you return it at 3/4 and it only takes a few gallons to fill it. I get that some people just don't have the time (or executive function?) to deal with refilling before return on some trips, or they're so rich that they just don't care, but otherwise I just do not get why anyone would accept this option.
- reaperman 2y ago
  A lot of car rentals go on a corporate tab. When high-impact employees are traveling, their time is very valuable. An extra 20 minutes for the employee to spend with the customer on the last day could easily be worth $150 to their employer. Some businesses are happy to pay inflated prices for gas just in case their employee needs that extra 20 minutes onsite before returning to the airport.
  - s0rce 2y ago
    Also better than missing a flight if you end up running late for whatever reason.
- listenallyall 2y ago
  Actually the deal, typically, is that if you buy a full tank up front, the per-gallon price is at par or even a bit cheaper than local gas stations, so you save money and gain convenience (that's the pitch). By contrast, if you don't buy gas up front, and don't return the car full, that's when they charge you an enormous per-gallon price. That price is highly profitable and also makes the "up-front" option seem more appealing. (Just take 10 minutes and return the car full, and don't worry about any of this)

m463 2y ago

Receipt later had a $100 "clean fee - interior ACCEPTED" after renting a car for two weeks. what? I called customer service and they quickly removed it, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. To be clear, there was rain so maybe a smudge of dirt near pedals, but car was kept clean throughout.

gessha 2y ago

If the Seinfeld episode about rental cars was made nowadays, it would be in a Hertz office (or tactically renamed version like Hearts or Hurts).

skykooler 2y ago

All my worst car rental experiences involved Herz.

hnburnsy 2y ago

Hertz used to be the best, I think I heard that PE gutted it, not sure, I avoid it at all costs.

listenallyall 2y ago
Not PE, it was mostly a former CEO. https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikakelton/2019/05/02/hertz-makes-a-rare-move-by-suing-former-executives/?sh=2584f4de33e7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikakelton/2019/05/02/hertz-ma...

kelnos 2y ago

As much as services like Turo and Getaround have their own gotchas[0], this sort of thing is why I try to use them instead of the legacy car rental companies, when possible. I've had nothing but good experiences with Turo (15 or so rentals, ranging from a single day to a 2-week rental). With the legacy rental companies, the best experiences are barely mediocre. [0] One big one is that credit cards that offer insurance for rental cars won't cover services like these.

rasz 2y ago
Turo is famous for scam fake vomit cleaning fees.
nicce 2y ago
I just found the Turo first time, and the prices seems to be like 4 times more? At least if you rent longer durations.
- RandallBrown 2y ago
  That must be pretty location dependent. When I've used it the prices were usually dramatically lower, especially if you want something specific like AWD.
  - nicce 2y ago
    That is true, prices were lower for some special vehicles (e.g. 7 seats), but for traditional ones the were much higher.
sf_rob 2y ago
The only EV I’ve rented from Turo was the opposite experience. They gave me the car at 75%, they capped charging at 90% in settings, then they charged me for bringing it back at 70% (which was just past their threshold but considering I could only charge it to 90% that should be the baseline).

brikym 2y ago

Missed opportunity to put 'gaslighting' in the title.

coleca 2y ago

Hadn’t rented from Hertz in many years until last week. Made sure to fill the tank back up as high as it would go just in case. Get thru security at the airport and already had a $26 charge for fuel. Still working on getting this fixed. Funny how they can charge within 5-7 minutes but they take 5-7 business days to process a refund.

jonhohle 2y ago
Good luck. I’m fighting them from the beginning of April because they failed to check the car in properly (I asked for a receipt and they said they couldn’t print one at the return, despite being in the receipt line). I got charged for the next renters days, late fees, recovery fees, and tolls accrued by them. They agreed to refund (which still hasn’t happened) and a few days later they charged me for not returning the car full (it was). Fortunately for us it’s just a credit card charge that’s being disputed. For friends of ours they reported the car stolen and filed a police report. This doesn’t seem like how a legitimate business operates, but more like a syndicate. While I understand individual locations are franchises, they have eerily similar catastrophic failures that seem to regularly occur.
gdudeman 2y ago
I recommend disputing the charge with your credit card. My credit card refunded my Hertz bill in under five minutes of clicking online.
- mendelmaleh 2y ago
  If they did a chargeback, Hertz might dispute it, send you collection letters and terminate your account.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    It's funny you should say that, because OP actually tells a more complete version of the story here [0]. Hertz did send them a new bill with a threat to send it to collections if it weren't paid. Maybe still a win in the end because the incorrect charge was removed, but I get really uncomfortable with how casually people recommend chargebacks on this forum. They're not intended to get you out of charges that the other party can prove you did agree to pay. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40412246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40412246

SoftTalker 2y ago

When people suggest owning an EV for daily use and renting a gas car for occasional long trips, this is exactly why that's not a attractive idea for most people. Even in the best case scenario, renting a car is a time-consuming hassle and you have to navigate high pressure tactics on buying upgrades, fuel, insurance, etc.

epcoa 2y ago
> Even in the best case scenario, renting a car is a time-consuming hassle No that’s the worst case scenario. > you have to navigate high pressure tactics on buying upgrades, fuel, insurance, etc. No you don’t. In the US, the major reputable companies allow you to register your DL and insurance, pick your default fuel preference. 20 minutes prior the reservation you get a list of available cars and proceed directly to the car. You then scan a QR code at the exit, maybe you show your DL to a guy at the gate, who is in no position to sell anything. This is for almost all airport locations and many corporate locations. Even when you see an agent.. High pressure tactics? That’s impossible, they have no leverage. It’s not like buying a hot new car or something. The insurance is usually worthless to you so you aren’t losing anything by walking away. Just say no? A simple no always works. Carry a credit card with primary rental insurance. I have had a sales person try to give some bullshit song and dance even when I politely tell them I have primary insurance on my card. It’s a simple “no, not interested.” What are they going to do?
- millzlane 2y ago
  Rented from enterprise last month. I booked a Sports Car Rental (Dodge Challenger or Similar). I got there and they only had a miata. Certainly a cool car. But it's too small for me. I needed a Dodge Challenger or similar. So I ended up with the slowest truck imaginable with no fuel in it. They wouldn't give me my company's corp. rate even though I had my work badge and this rental was for a work training in DC. Oh! and I brought my own EZ pass, but somehow the enterprise car somehow still charged me for tolls. But not without the extra convenience fee. Rental car companies here suck.
  - 2y ago

darepublic 2y ago

Wonder if these were due to software bugs

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
User and/or software errors are the likely cause. It could have been a bad UX that led to bad input, or staff that wasn't very trained/diligent, or a bug that added the gas charge anyways (and didn't prevent it on EVs).

sundvor 2y ago

Don't attribute to malice what can usually be explained by sheer incompetence, sure, but this pushes the case for both.

dawnerd 2y ago

I make sure the car is fully checked in when I drop off and I get a recipe and verify before I leave that all is good. Last year they tried to charge me for a tiny chip in the window that I hadn’t seen before. They tried to force me to fill out a form admitting fault for insurance but refused. Nothing came of it and have rented since no problem.

s0rce 2y ago

Hertz told me I would be charged if the car wasn't returned charged, I asked how much and they couldn't say. I was also confused because it wasn't clear how to charge at the airport and that was very inconvenient, I'd rather charge the night before near my hotel. No answer but they said its fine to return it 85% charged. I went out to get the car and the guy said I needed to return it 80% charged. I got in and it was less than 80% charged... wonderful experience.

constantlm 2y ago

I've seen enough negative Hertz-related discussions on HN over the past few months to entirely avoid them going forward.

gdudeman 2y ago

I got a $80 bill from Hertz for returning a compact car without gas. I had returned the car with a full tank of gas though! There is no way to resolve this on the phone, so I filled out their online form to dispute the charge. After not hearing from Hertz for 2 days, I disputed the charge with my credit card. The credit card instantly refunded the entire cost of the rental. Within 12 hours of the refund, I got an email from Hertz saying they were sorry about the accidental charge and that they'd give me a free one day rental. Ultimately they sent me a bill for the cost of the rental minus the gas and threatened to take me to collections if I didn't pay it. I never got my free rental.

msadowski 2y ago

One thing I learned really quickly renting in Europe is to take pictures of the rental before driving off. Last time I rented a car there was a huge scratch on the side that wasn’t included in their pickup form. When I returned the car they were ready to bill me for it until I showed the picture and their response was: “OK, no worries then, all is good”. From the reviews I’ve been reading people often get charged this way and I’m wondering how many people end up paying for the same damage.

YZF 2y ago
I just had this in Hawaii (Big Island). Dollar car rental dude checks my car when I return it and decided some scratch on the fender was new (I'm pretty sure it was not). I had full insurance and I told him he can figure it out with the insurance company, that I was in rush to catch my flight, and he can do whatever he wants. They didn't do anything. They're just looking for some sucker they can charge extra on some random thing. I've had a lot of rental car experiences. Usually it's fine. Taking photos sounds like a good idea.

deleted 2y ago

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surfingdino 2y ago

Mercedes Benz will keep charging you for subscription to their GPS service after you sell the car, because "you signed up for the full length of the contract". How is that legal?