25 ms·

Show HN: Open-source GeForce NOW alternative with Stadia's social features

176 points by WanjohiRyan 2y ago

jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Does anyone have experience using Nucleus co-op for remote play? It'd be cool to make use of this huge collection of games which have been sent into running multi-instance with a hijacked network stack & spoofed APIs, to make use of it for game streaming with friends.
chenxi9649 2y ago
This is super cool! A few questions: 1. just how low is the latency? "Netris delivers a zero-latency gaming experience that won't eat up your data plan." What does this mean? Wouldn't the latency be at least from my computer, to Netris server, to the game server? I would assume you can't play FPS/MOBA games on these? 2. "10,000+ games supported" "games that come with their own launchers are not yet supported" I'm curious about the technical differences between steam games and games with their own launcher. I guess I was assuming that you're more or less just pixel streaming to me(?) 3. how does it compare to GeforceNOW? Would love to see one of those long charts with checklists.
- tjpnz 2y ago
  As a GFN user myself the biggest single problem is publishers getting a say in whether I can run their game on the service. With self hosted solutions like Netris you don't have those limitations because they're not baked into the software. In terms of other differences I'd imagine that you would end up paying more for this in the cloud. As someone else has mentioned, NVIDIA are likely to be subsidizing access to their GPUs.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Thorrez 2y ago
  >"Netris delivers a zero-latency gaming experience that won't eat up your data plan." What does this mean? Wouldn't the latency be at least from my computer, to Netris server, to the game server? I agree zero-latency sounds impossible. But why wouldn't the Netris server and the game server be the same machine? So that's 1 less latency hop.
- consp 2y ago
  > games that come with their own launchers are not yet supported Please let this be the nail in the coffin for those extra clicks and annoying "Log in with our service now" for games which have no online stuff whatsoever (take2 is notorious for this)
- wccrawford 2y ago
  Games that come with their own launcher start up 1 executable, then exit it and start another one. It's really easy to track that first one. But the second one is a pain in the rear. I'm guessing that's the problem they're still trying to solve without manually inputting info for each individual game, or making the player do that.
  - csmpltn 2y ago
    > « It's really easy to track that first one. But the second one is a pain in the rear.» Tracking child processes spawns/handles, or even resorting to polling for process name for a while, all should be fairly simple to implement…
    - OmegaMetor 2y ago
      GeForce now used to have tons of "issues" with people easily being able to run any app or program they wanted, using a few tricks. Last time I tried it, it seemed like it was all locked down a lot better, but previously it'd still be steam opening the other program. It was nice while it lasted, since they wanted cyberpunk available day one, it was actually accessible about a week before the game released.
komali2 2y ago
Beautiful, and agpl3 too! Can't wait to try it. I think self hosted game streaming is a field that could use a lot more attention, from consumers as well. I set up moonlight/sunshine on my pc and now I can play cyberpunk on my 3080 machine from basically anywhere in the country, on my phone! Just got some gamesir controller thing to turn it into a sort of Nintendo switch type device and away I go. Actually, I have basically every emulator I could get my hands on as well, so my phone basically is a Nintendo switch so long as I have a decent internet connection. That's super cool to access my game library from any device that can run moonlight! (That's many devices btw. I recently found a moonlight client on the 3ds homebrew store. Haven't tried it yet but gives you an idea how absurdly widespread it is) This stadia thing seems more about streaming through a browser so I'm really curious how things like Bluetooth controllers will work, whether there's onscreen controls available for mobile devices, that kind of thing. Will try it and find out! I REALLY love that it seems like I can share with my friends, as a jellyfin, audiobookshelf, konga, navidrome, and calibreweb / opds enthusiast, if I can add videogames to the mix that would be amazing. I already share my steam library through family sharing with some friends cause why not? Otherwise it's going to waste!
- langarus 2y ago
  Really nice. What is your latency?
  - komali2 2y ago
    I'm not sure how to objectively measure this but if you have an idea I'm happy to give it a try and let you know! For the record I live in Taiwan and apparently we have some of the best internet access in the world. And, I get 5g basically everywhere in the country, even when I'm deep in the mountains. But subjectively I can say the latency is usually unnoticeable at like 30mpbs, though I'm sure a pro fps gamer would notice. The latency from the Bluetooth controller is far worse. What is a little annoying is the I think compression artifacts? Whatever it is that causes blockiness when I move my camera around, that isn't really visible on static objects.
- samspenc 2y ago
shmerl 2y ago
Being exclusive to Nvidia GPUs doesn't sound like a good idea. What makes it rely on CUDA anyway? It's cool that it's using Wine though. From these cloud services like Amazon's Luna or Geforce Now, none are running Linux, so this is interesting. No idea why Stadia couldn't do the same and tried to reinvent the wheel with Windows ABI translation at some point before it shut down.
- wudangmonk 2y ago
  My understanding is that at a certain point the only way to keep climbing the corporate latter at google is for other's projects to fail and yours to make it which explains why they come out with a new messages app every 3 months before killing it.
- cdchn 2y ago
  I'd guess it does the video encoding on the GPU before it goes back to the PC. GeForce Experience recording does this as well I believe.
  - shmerl 2y ago
    They don't need CUDA for video encoding? For video they can rely on VAAPI or Vulkan video (the latter might be behind on AV1 encoding options though) which can work on any GPU with video acceleration hardware.
- Disco30417 2y ago
  I guess the google team wanted to create an experience that is identical to the console gaming experience, in the sense that the users don’t have to adjust any settings before playing. Because of this requirement they couldn't use windows vms, because they sometimes have some issues like the game not being displayed in full screen. I also guess that Google probably saw some cost saving potential by using Linux instead of Windows.
killingtime74 2y ago
One of the benefits of GeForce now is im pretty sure they are subsidizing it. I get unlimited gaming on a 4080 for USD$20. I have a 4080 at home and I can't get the same latency/frame rate with Parsec even though I have a gigabit connection. Cool project, actual experience unsure.
- MacsHeadroom 2y ago
  I get better latency and frame rate than GeForce Now on a 2660 using moonlight. Using h.265 or AV1 is necessary. I'm not familiar with Presec, but I'll bet it's defaulting to h.264.
  - softfalcon 2y ago
    The default for Parsec is h.265, it's only on older machines that can't hardware encode/decode that fall back to h.264. The reason they're likely seeing latency issues is that Parsec doesn't have the localized servers that GeForce Now has. Servers closer to your location will always have lower latency. This is a simple case of nVidia simply having more money, more servers, and better infrastructure than Parsec. Which isn't surprising given the scale and cashflow difference of the two companies.
    - mynameisvlad 2y ago
      Parsec doesn’t use their servers though. It’s peer to peer once discovery is done. So the “server” is likely elsewhere in your house. That’s basically as close as you can get.
      - softfalcon 2y ago
        Oh, wild, I didn't know that. I definitely see some high latency on Parsec within my home. It might be bouncing around through the net somehow instead of transferring directly within my local network? I wonder if something about local peer-to-peer discovery isn't working properly? Maybe that's also happening to the other person comparing GeForce Now to Parsec?
mattlondon 2y ago
I am a GFN subscriber (and Stadia prior to that) so I am quite interested in this - GFN is great (I no longer have a gaming laptop and just use game streaming -90% from GFN and the rest via moonlight from a server in my loft/attic) but the major drawback is that you cannot access your entire game library. I presume it is a combination of a) compatibility but probably more likely b) contracts/business/legal. GFN does have an integration with Microsoft's game service too, which offers a rolling library of new games to try - if netris does not support anything apart from steam then that will be a shame as I won't be able to access the MS games . Still despite that, I'm interested to see how this one goes! I am in the sign-up queue and wait with interest.
- nolok 2y ago
  It's legal. They used to cover pretty much all of it then published came at them one after another to want a "deal". The moment they gain any kind of popularity, they're going to hit the same legal wall. As for using it for your own needs 1:1, I wish steam would expand it's steam to steam self streaming to cover usage out of local lan.
  - ThatPlayer 2y ago
    > I wish steam would expand it's steam to steam self streaming to cover usage out of local lan. They've done that with their Steam Link apps in 2019: https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/14/18266000/steam-link-anywhere-streaming-update https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/14/18266000/steam-link-anywhe... The initial pairing has to be done on lan I believe, but will work afterwards through Steam. I remember trying it with a Raspberry Pi even. Steam itself will also work as a client and not require the initial pairing setup.
  - utensil4778 2y ago
    You can use Steam to stream over the internet. You have to enter a pairing code once on the remote machine, but after that you can play anything, you can even add a "non-steam game" to stream any application you want. I do this all the time with my powerful work computer at the office while I'm at home. It works surprisingly well, actually. The only shitty part is that they removed the ability for you to download a new game on the remote machine from your local steam client. The only way to do it now is with the steam app on your phone.
PrivateButts 2y ago
Wait, I thought that you need either a hacked driver or a very expensive license to split up Nvidia GPUs, even within containers?
- denysvitali 2y ago
  Wasn't it just a very expensive GPU which basically had a flag that enabled the feature in the driver? I seem to recall reading about people unlocking their NVIDIA GPUs to allow the nested virtualization. --- Edit: here it is https://github.com/DualCoder/vgpu_unlock https://github.com/DualCoder/vgpu_unlock
- ThatPlayer 2y ago
  I'm not sure this does split up the GPU. One of the listed self-hosted requirements is "Your Nvidia GPU should not be attached to a running X display server." Sounds like exclusive GPU use to me.
- whazor 2y ago
  Shout out to Wolf, which on Linux actually allows you to run multiple sessions on one GPU: https://github.com/games-on-whales/wolf https://github.com/games-on-whales/wolf
  - kakamiokatsu 2y ago
    Thanks for the unexpected shout-out to Wolf (I'm the main dev behind it)!
MidhaelBollox 2y ago
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MidhaelBollox 2y ago
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MidhaelBollox 2y ago
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spintin 2y ago
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namelessone1666 2y ago
When will 2560x1440p finally become a standard among these streaming services? It's either 1920x1080 or 4k, nothing in between (pricewise, but also client/browser wise)
- yunohn 2y ago
  Most gaming monitors also seem to be primarily 2650x1440. The 4k ones cost significantly more.
  - namelessone1666 2y ago
    It's one of the reasons i cancelled Geforce Now, a total lack of support for Linux on higher resolutions. An alternative should consider the downsides of the competition. (don't get me wrong, i really like this initiative :)
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  Geforce now has 1440p
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
LorenDB 2y ago
This looks like a really cool project! I do have two questions, though. 1. Do you plan to add AMD support? 2. What advantages does Metrics have over leaving a PC with Steam always on and then using Steam Remote Play?
mslong 2y ago
I was trying to find their actual streaming implementation in their codebase before giving up and checking their Discord. Apparently parts of their game streaming stack are being developed in private repos, and their subscription service is the only working version of this project. In its current state I wouldn’t call this project open-source.
- firtoz 2y ago
  Sigh. That was the main thing I was interested in.
- dartos 2y ago
  If you’re interested in stuff like this, take a look at the looking-glass project. It uses shared memory to display frames from a VM running under a Linux host. I’m sure there’s a way to transmit those frames over a network if one was clever enough
  - parski 2y ago
    That's a really cool idea.
  - dns_snek 2y ago
    > I’m sure there’s a way to transmit those frames over a network if one was clever enough Something like Sunshine[1], coupled with Moonlight[2]? [1] https://github.com/LizardByte/Sunshine https://github.com/LizardByte/Sunshine [2] https://github.com/moonlight-stream/moonlight-qt https://github.com/moonlight-stream/moonlight-qt
- tharos47 2y ago
  You should check out this project (https://kyber.media/ https://kyber.media/) by the man behind VLC and ex CTO of a cloud streaming (JB Kempf). It also uses QUIC for transport and VLC/ffmpeg for fast encoding. Unfortunately it's not launched yet AFAIK. Brief slide in english : https://conf.kde.org/event/5/contributions/147/attachments/76/92/Akademy2023_Kempf.pdf https://conf.kde.org/event/5/contributions/147/attachments/7... More detailed overview (in french) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVgvBulXcDA&t=3368s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVgvBulXcDA&t=3368s
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lostmsu 2y ago
Just to tag along, we are building a P2P GeForce Now at https://borg.games https://borg.games . It is not open-source though (and neither is this Netris btw, streaming is not part of the source repo). Only a couple hard coded games are currently available, but we are close to getting GOG.com support.

176 points by WanjohiRyan 2y ago

Does anyone have experience using Nucleus co-op for remote play? It'd be cool to make use of this huge collection of games which have been sent into running multi-instance with a hijacked network stack & spoofed APIs, to make use of it for game streaming with friends.

chenxi9649 2y ago

This is super cool! A few questions: 1. just how low is the latency? "Netris delivers a zero-latency gaming experience that won't eat up your data plan." What does this mean? Wouldn't the latency be at least from my computer, to Netris server, to the game server? I would assume you can't play FPS/MOBA games on these? 2. "10,000+ games supported" "games that come with their own launchers are not yet supported" I'm curious about the technical differences between steam games and games with their own launcher. I guess I was assuming that you're more or less just pixel streaming to me(?) 3. how does it compare to GeforceNOW? Would love to see one of those long charts with checklists.

tjpnz 2y ago
As a GFN user myself the biggest single problem is publishers getting a say in whether I can run their game on the service. With self hosted solutions like Netris you don't have those limitations because they're not baked into the software. In terms of other differences I'd imagine that you would end up paying more for this in the cloud. As someone else has mentioned, NVIDIA are likely to be subsidizing access to their GPUs.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Thorrez 2y ago
>"Netris delivers a zero-latency gaming experience that won't eat up your data plan." What does this mean? Wouldn't the latency be at least from my computer, to Netris server, to the game server? I agree zero-latency sounds impossible. But why wouldn't the Netris server and the game server be the same machine? So that's 1 less latency hop.
consp 2y ago
> games that come with their own launchers are not yet supported Please let this be the nail in the coffin for those extra clicks and annoying "Log in with our service now" for games which have no online stuff whatsoever (take2 is notorious for this)
wccrawford 2y ago
Games that come with their own launcher start up 1 executable, then exit it and start another one. It's really easy to track that first one. But the second one is a pain in the rear. I'm guessing that's the problem they're still trying to solve without manually inputting info for each individual game, or making the player do that.
- csmpltn 2y ago
  > « It's really easy to track that first one. But the second one is a pain in the rear.» Tracking child processes spawns/handles, or even resorting to polling for process name for a while, all should be fairly simple to implement…
  - OmegaMetor 2y ago
    GeForce now used to have tons of "issues" with people easily being able to run any app or program they wanted, using a few tricks. Last time I tried it, it seemed like it was all locked down a lot better, but previously it'd still be steam opening the other program. It was nice while it lasted, since they wanted cyberpunk available day one, it was actually accessible about a week before the game released.

komali2 2y ago

Beautiful, and agpl3 too! Can't wait to try it. I think self hosted game streaming is a field that could use a lot more attention, from consumers as well. I set up moonlight/sunshine on my pc and now I can play cyberpunk on my 3080 machine from basically anywhere in the country, on my phone! Just got some gamesir controller thing to turn it into a sort of Nintendo switch type device and away I go. Actually, I have basically every emulator I could get my hands on as well, so my phone basically is a Nintendo switch so long as I have a decent internet connection. That's super cool to access my game library from any device that can run moonlight! (That's many devices btw. I recently found a moonlight client on the 3ds homebrew store. Haven't tried it yet but gives you an idea how absurdly widespread it is) This stadia thing seems more about streaming through a browser so I'm really curious how things like Bluetooth controllers will work, whether there's onscreen controls available for mobile devices, that kind of thing. Will try it and find out! I REALLY love that it seems like I can share with my friends, as a jellyfin, audiobookshelf, konga, navidrome, and calibreweb / opds enthusiast, if I can add videogames to the mix that would be amazing. I already share my steam library through family sharing with some friends cause why not? Otherwise it's going to waste!

langarus 2y ago
Really nice. What is your latency?
- komali2 2y ago
  I'm not sure how to objectively measure this but if you have an idea I'm happy to give it a try and let you know! For the record I live in Taiwan and apparently we have some of the best internet access in the world. And, I get 5g basically everywhere in the country, even when I'm deep in the mountains. But subjectively I can say the latency is usually unnoticeable at like 30mpbs, though I'm sure a pro fps gamer would notice. The latency from the Bluetooth controller is far worse. What is a little annoying is the I think compression artifacts? Whatever it is that causes blockiness when I move my camera around, that isn't really visible on static objects.
samspenc 2y ago

shmerl 2y ago

Being exclusive to Nvidia GPUs doesn't sound like a good idea. What makes it rely on CUDA anyway? It's cool that it's using Wine though. From these cloud services like Amazon's Luna or Geforce Now, none are running Linux, so this is interesting. No idea why Stadia couldn't do the same and tried to reinvent the wheel with Windows ABI translation at some point before it shut down.

wudangmonk 2y ago
My understanding is that at a certain point the only way to keep climbing the corporate latter at google is for other's projects to fail and yours to make it which explains why they come out with a new messages app every 3 months before killing it.
cdchn 2y ago
I'd guess it does the video encoding on the GPU before it goes back to the PC. GeForce Experience recording does this as well I believe.
- shmerl 2y ago
  They don't need CUDA for video encoding? For video they can rely on VAAPI or Vulkan video (the latter might be behind on AV1 encoding options though) which can work on any GPU with video acceleration hardware.
Disco30417 2y ago
I guess the google team wanted to create an experience that is identical to the console gaming experience, in the sense that the users don’t have to adjust any settings before playing. Because of this requirement they couldn't use windows vms, because they sometimes have some issues like the game not being displayed in full screen. I also guess that Google probably saw some cost saving potential by using Linux instead of Windows.

killingtime74 2y ago

One of the benefits of GeForce now is im pretty sure they are subsidizing it. I get unlimited gaming on a 4080 for USD$20. I have a 4080 at home and I can't get the same latency/frame rate with Parsec even though I have a gigabit connection. Cool project, actual experience unsure.

MacsHeadroom 2y ago
I get better latency and frame rate than GeForce Now on a 2660 using moonlight. Using h.265 or AV1 is necessary. I'm not familiar with Presec, but I'll bet it's defaulting to h.264.
- softfalcon 2y ago
  The default for Parsec is h.265, it's only on older machines that can't hardware encode/decode that fall back to h.264. The reason they're likely seeing latency issues is that Parsec doesn't have the localized servers that GeForce Now has. Servers closer to your location will always have lower latency. This is a simple case of nVidia simply having more money, more servers, and better infrastructure than Parsec. Which isn't surprising given the scale and cashflow difference of the two companies.
  - mynameisvlad 2y ago
    Parsec doesn’t use their servers though. It’s peer to peer once discovery is done. So the “server” is likely elsewhere in your house. That’s basically as close as you can get.
    - softfalcon 2y ago
      Oh, wild, I didn't know that. I definitely see some high latency on Parsec within my home. It might be bouncing around through the net somehow instead of transferring directly within my local network? I wonder if something about local peer-to-peer discovery isn't working properly? Maybe that's also happening to the other person comparing GeForce Now to Parsec?

mattlondon 2y ago

I am a GFN subscriber (and Stadia prior to that) so I am quite interested in this - GFN is great (I no longer have a gaming laptop and just use game streaming -90% from GFN and the rest via moonlight from a server in my loft/attic) but the major drawback is that you cannot access your entire game library. I presume it is a combination of a) compatibility but probably more likely b) contracts/business/legal. GFN does have an integration with Microsoft's game service too, which offers a rolling library of new games to try - if netris does not support anything apart from steam then that will be a shame as I won't be able to access the MS games . Still despite that, I'm interested to see how this one goes! I am in the sign-up queue and wait with interest.

nolok 2y ago
It's legal. They used to cover pretty much all of it then published came at them one after another to want a "deal". The moment they gain any kind of popularity, they're going to hit the same legal wall. As for using it for your own needs 1:1, I wish steam would expand it's steam to steam self streaming to cover usage out of local lan.
- ThatPlayer 2y ago
  > I wish steam would expand it's steam to steam self streaming to cover usage out of local lan. They've done that with their Steam Link apps in 2019: https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/14/18266000/steam-link-anywhere-streaming-update https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/14/18266000/steam-link-anywhe... The initial pairing has to be done on lan I believe, but will work afterwards through Steam. I remember trying it with a Raspberry Pi even. Steam itself will also work as a client and not require the initial pairing setup.
- utensil4778 2y ago
  You can use Steam to stream over the internet. You have to enter a pairing code once on the remote machine, but after that you can play anything, you can even add a "non-steam game" to stream any application you want. I do this all the time with my powerful work computer at the office while I'm at home. It works surprisingly well, actually. The only shitty part is that they removed the ability for you to download a new game on the remote machine from your local steam client. The only way to do it now is with the steam app on your phone.

PrivateButts 2y ago

Wait, I thought that you need either a hacked driver or a very expensive license to split up Nvidia GPUs, even within containers?

denysvitali 2y ago
Wasn't it just a very expensive GPU which basically had a flag that enabled the feature in the driver? I seem to recall reading about people unlocking their NVIDIA GPUs to allow the nested virtualization. --- Edit: here it is https://github.com/DualCoder/vgpu_unlock https://github.com/DualCoder/vgpu_unlock
ThatPlayer 2y ago
I'm not sure this does split up the GPU. One of the listed self-hosted requirements is "Your Nvidia GPU should not be attached to a running X display server." Sounds like exclusive GPU use to me.
whazor 2y ago
Shout out to Wolf, which on Linux actually allows you to run multiple sessions on one GPU: https://github.com/games-on-whales/wolf https://github.com/games-on-whales/wolf
- kakamiokatsu 2y ago
  Thanks for the unexpected shout-out to Wolf (I'm the main dev behind it)!

MidhaelBollox 2y ago

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MidhaelBollox 2y ago

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MidhaelBollox 2y ago

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spintin 2y ago

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namelessone1666 2y ago

When will 2560x1440p finally become a standard among these streaming services? It's either 1920x1080 or 4k, nothing in between (pricewise, but also client/browser wise)

yunohn 2y ago
Most gaming monitors also seem to be primarily 2650x1440. The 4k ones cost significantly more.
- namelessone1666 2y ago
  It's one of the reasons i cancelled Geforce Now, a total lack of support for Linux on higher resolutions. An alternative should consider the downsides of the competition. (don't get me wrong, i really like this initiative :)
TiredOfLife 2y ago
Geforce now has 1440p
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

LorenDB 2y ago

This looks like a really cool project! I do have two questions, though. 1. Do you plan to add AMD support? 2. What advantages does Metrics have over leaving a PC with Steam always on and then using Steam Remote Play?

mslong 2y ago

I was trying to find their actual streaming implementation in their codebase before giving up and checking their Discord. Apparently parts of their game streaming stack are being developed in private repos, and their subscription service is the only working version of this project. In its current state I wouldn’t call this project open-source.

firtoz 2y ago
Sigh. That was the main thing I was interested in.
dartos 2y ago
If you’re interested in stuff like this, take a look at the looking-glass project. It uses shared memory to display frames from a VM running under a Linux host. I’m sure there’s a way to transmit those frames over a network if one was clever enough
- parski 2y ago
  That's a really cool idea.
- dns_snek 2y ago
  > I’m sure there’s a way to transmit those frames over a network if one was clever enough Something like Sunshine[1], coupled with Moonlight[2]? [1] https://github.com/LizardByte/Sunshine https://github.com/LizardByte/Sunshine [2] https://github.com/moonlight-stream/moonlight-qt https://github.com/moonlight-stream/moonlight-qt
tharos47 2y ago
You should check out this project (https://kyber.media/ https://kyber.media/) by the man behind VLC and ex CTO of a cloud streaming (JB Kempf). It also uses QUIC for transport and VLC/ffmpeg for fast encoding. Unfortunately it's not launched yet AFAIK. Brief slide in english : https://conf.kde.org/event/5/contributions/147/attachments/76/92/Akademy2023_Kempf.pdf https://conf.kde.org/event/5/contributions/147/attachments/7... More detailed overview (in french) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVgvBulXcDA&t=3368s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVgvBulXcDA&t=3368s

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

lostmsu 2y ago

Just to tag along, we are building a P2P GeForce Now at https://borg.games https://borg.games . It is not open-source though (and neither is this Netris btw, streaming is not part of the source repo). Only a couple hard coded games are currently available, but we are close to getting GOG.com support.