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Companies Say They're Using Microphone Audio to Target Ads [audio] (2023)
- HelloMcFly 2y agoI can't help how I feel, but I can control my actions. I feel like a climate doomer, but I'm still doing my part because I might be wrong and I want to minimize my own feelings of culpability.
- HelloMcFly 2y agoI am not sure how this comment ended up on this thread. I'm not a randomly-posting AI bot!
- jjmarr 2y agoYou're telling me that TVs really are targeting me with secret messages and listening to everything I say?
- genewitch 2y agosonicontrol firewall exists and pings when watching youtube and television, but not on dvds manufactured before cellphones, out in the forest, etc. Just a thought.
- imglorp 2y agoOfficially, yep! https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/samsungs-warning-our-smart-tvs-record-your-living-room-chatter/ https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/samsungs-warning-our-smart...
- candiddevmike 2y agoText link: https://www.404media.co/mindsift-brags-about-using-smart-device-microphone-audio-to-target-ads-on-their-podcast/ https://www.404media.co/mindsift-brags-about-using-smart-dev...
- pinkmuffinere 2y agoThe other relevant article linked from podcast: https://www.404media.co/cmg-cox-media-actually-listening-to-phones-smartspeakers-for-ads-marketing/ https://www.404media.co/cmg-cox-media-actually-listening-to-...
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoThis comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657826, from 5 months ago on this article, https://gizmodo.com/cmg-local-solutions-ads-listening-on-devices-1851102426 https://gizmodo.com/cmg-local-solutions-ads-listening-on-dev..., is accurate: > I appreciate that Gizmodo actually calls out ridiculous nature of the claims. The original 404 Media article took every claim at face value and stirred some additional hyperbole to boot.
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- ChrisArchitect 2y ago(2023) Article discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38662052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38662052
- ellyagg 2y agoI've been keeping a running gag with my acquaintances over YouTube's recommendations for a while now, because they're so improbably and time-sensitively on the nose. Yesterday was the worst one yet. We were driving and my daughter was filling out MadLibs by hand in a paper booklet in the backseat. One of the fill-ins we came up with was "pantyliner". As soon as we got home from the event, I sat down and YouTube gave me an above-the-fold recommendation for a Japanese pantyliner commercial. I've seen enough. This word never comes up in day-to-day conversation, it's not in my interests, and it's one of the least exciting topics imaginable. None of me, my wife, nor my daughter had hands free to search it up at that time, and besides, we were totally preoccupied with driving and our event until I got home a couple hours later. For the record, we're an iPhone family and were in a Tesla. I had been convinced by, I think, a Simon Willison article that this isn't happening. But he's wrong. This is happening.
- djtango 2y agoYour anecdotal experience mirrors mine too. Could just be some selection bias but it is really uncanny...
- jonathankoren 2y agoI also think there’s something weird going on with YouTube recommendations. The thing that I’ve noticed is that people I follow on TikTok are showing up in my YouTube recommendations, and I’ve never interacted with their YouTube accounts. Most times I didn’t even know they had a YouTube account. I use the same email address on both accounts, but it seems weird that TT would export its follow graph to YT for any reason.
- robocat 2y agoMaybe Google are listening to you use Tiktok?
- jonathankoren 2y agoI would prefer a more plausible guess
- notarealllama 2y agoHuh, nice, 404 media has a podcast. Gonna have to check this out. Curious about mic and cam permissions in modern smartphone and web. All of that is pretty locked down, but I wish there were a more standard way to know when an app is accessing sensitive hardware.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoUntil I see an actual demo of this, I'm calling bullshit for what I think should be obvious reasons. Every device maker (Apple, Google, Samsung, etc.) has a huge vested interest in ensuring that any random app on your device can't listen to your conversations without explicit permission. So if this were actually happening, it must be one of the following things: 1. There is a 0-day in iOS or Android that is allowing this to happen. This could certainly happen, but would obviously be patched as soon as it was discovered. And if this 0-day did exist I think a lot more money could be made selling this to state actors instead of as a rando marketing tool. 2. There is some app that is being nefariously marketed as something innocuous, but then is actually selling your background conversation data. Also possible, but if discovered Apple, Google, etc. would still have a vested interest in kicking them off their devices. 3. There are some shitty devices that are sold that have always-on microphones. Also a possibility but wouldn't have the reach of devices from major manufacturers. So, to Mindsift and CMG, I say "put up or shut up".
- sublinear 2y agoI agree with you if we're just talking about phones, but not all devices run Android or iOS. TVs, streaming devices, Amazon Echo , etc. are all explicitly marketing platforms with a loose enough terms of service to allow this.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoTalk in specifics, because otherwise it's still obviously bullshit: 1. Given how prevalent Alexa devices are in homes, if Amazon was recording background conversations and using it in marketing this would be huge news. Again, I'm not saying a 0-day is impossible, but there is simply no above-board way to use ambient conversations with Echo devices. 2. The vast majority of smart TVs run Android or a derivative. Again, an "always on" listening feature if it existed and was being used would be a career-making scoop for an investigative journalist. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible that there aren't some devices with shitty security that were hacked. I'm saying it's not possible to do it legitimately, and it's not possible to do it with devices that have a huge install base.
- tedunangst 2y agoVery curious how zero investigative journalists have managed to go undercover and buy one of these ads, despite the fact that they are apparently so widely available.
- babypuncher 2y agoNobody's even been able to offer evidence that these apps are somehow bypassing iOS and Android permission systems to listen in on the microphone in the background without the OS itself knowing. It's all just really dumb fearmongering that ultimately hurts the credibility of privacy advocates as a whole. The sad thing is, these companies are collecting mass amounts of sensitive data and using it to drive ads, and we should be doing more about it. There's absolutely no reason to fabricate nonsense like this, the reality is already terrifying enough to creep people out.
- imglorp 2y agoMaybe not those devices in particular, but there are plenty of terms of service and spokespeople on the record saying utterances are captured and passed on to third parties. One TV company CEO famously said you should leave the room to have a private conversation.
- dataflow 2y ago> Nobody's even been able to offer evidence that these apps are somehow bypassing iOS and Android permission systems Maybe a lot of the folks this happens to haven't denied microphone permission? Or maybe someone around them hasn't? Facebook has a calling feature, chances are people (or others around them) have given it access without realizing it. I have certainly caught Facebook Messenger snooping on my location when it had no business to, merely because I had granted the permission days ago when sharing my location with my friend, and forgotten to deny it again. It spooked me out and made me realize how they trick you into sharing info you didn't intend. I don't see why they wouldn't opportunistically exploit mic permissions just the same. Hell, that might be why they created the calling feature in the first place!
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- ribosometronome 2y agoMy conspiracy theory is that data brokers want you focusing on the things that aren't happening (any meaningful use of microphone audio to target ads) because it distracts from that their collection methodology is already so robust, invasive, and complete that they don't need to do that to deliver ads that seem as good as if they were listening.
- craftkiller 2y agoI've tested this before, and I'd recommend you all do it too. Its very easy: Pick a product you never need/buy/see advertised/talk about. Personally, I live in an apartment in a big city, so I used the word "mulch". Now stand in your empty apartment and talk to yourself about that product. This can be mostly meaningless babble like "I love mulch. I need to buy mulch. Mulch is best when brown." I did this for ~30 minutes. Now the hard part: DO NOT tell anyone your word, do not type it into anything, its best you don't even mention the experiment to people. If you tell your word to people then they might type it into a computer which would taint the experiment. Within a week I was seeing ads for mulch.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoYeah, let me guess, you ran your "test" at the end of winter...
- add-sub-mul-div 2y agoWhat devices that have microphones were in the room with you?
- craftkiller 2y agoCellphone, Smart TV, Laptop, Desktop's webcam. I don't use any sort of voice-based smart assistant like Google Home / Alexa. Since this experiment, I've been a lot more conscious of microphones. My desktop's microphone and my laptop's microphone both have hardware kill switches. My desktop's webcam no longer has a built-in microphone. My television and cellphone still have microphones without kill switches.
- ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago> My television and cellphone still have microphones without kill switches. If you have a "smart TV" and you have given it an internet connection, you probably should reconsider that.
- heavyset_go 2y ago
- K0nserv 2y agoI analysed[0] many apps on the App Store when Apple started forcing app authors to disclose their use of data, at the time nine apps collected audio in a context that could be construed to mean use for ad targeting. It’s been four years so I should really redo this research. 0: https://hugotunius.se/2021/01/10/the-apps-that-listen-to-you.html https://hugotunius.se/2021/01/10/the-apps-that-listen-to-you...
- tomohawk 2y agoFor any crime, there is means, motive, and opportunity. The smart phone is the means and the opportunity.
- nielsbot 2y agoApple Podcasts link FWIW: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/these-companies-say-theyre-using-microphone-audio-to/id1703615331?i=1000639336327 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/these-companies-say-th...
- eagerpace 2y agoJust because these capabilities exist doesn’t mean they exist broadly. They may have a few apps in their network that had a reason for the user to provide microphone access and then they exploit it for this. But it’s likely relatively obscure apps that aren’t well scrutinized. They might be able to target hundreds of users with it, and play up the “modern” approach and then do some lookalike thing to pad the audience into something that appears more effective to the customer.
- akaij 2y agoI have always denied Instagram access to my camera, microphone, photos, and location, on top of disabling background refresh. Sometimes, upon switching to the app, I get this screen: https://i.imgur.com/Sj8Dikg.png https://i.imgur.com/Sj8Dikg.png This has always struck me as odd, because it means the app would have started both the camera and microphone if it had permissions, without me clicking the right buttons to get to it. I'm too lazy right now to see if I can trigger the screen, and whether iOS would show the microphone/camera activity icons, but maybe there's a bug that's actively being exploited by Meta. I don't know how active the microphone stays if it has permissions, but I wouldn't put it past them to send all the data captured by the sensors even if I'm not posting a story. They did it with "status updates" on Facebook back then, when they gathered the data even if I deleted whatever I wrote without posting. </faraday cage hat>
- Borrible 2y ago“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.” Joseph Heller, Catch-22
- joshspankit 2y agoI feel like I’m imagining it at this point, but didn’t both Apple and Google come out and directly say they were doing it? The distinction was “recording”. No one admitted to recording, but they did say that they did voice to text (on-device) then sold the interesting keywords. Since even a complete transcription is technically metadata it falls under the very large umbrella and gets to be hand-waved.
- Lucyj001 2y ago[dead]
- kludgemaker 2y agoThe marketing company's web page literally advertised: "It's True. Your Devices Are Listening to You." The page has been removed from their website, but it's archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20230927000839/https://www.cmglocalsolutions.com/cmg-active-listening https://web.archive.org/web/20230927000839/https://www.cmglo...
- Lucyj001 2y ago[dead]