9 ms·

Why US renters are taking corporate landlords to court

77 points by jarbus 2y ago

thelastgallon 2y ago
Rent going up? One company’s algorithm could be why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33224502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33224502 DOJ will examine whether RealPage helped landlords coordinate rent increases: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33744136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33744136
- Ccecil 2y ago
  I have been meaning for a while now to post about Realpage. I keep seeing how they are causing the market to go higher by collusion. The common thing all these companies seem to do (realpage, zillow, etc) is list the rents "that are what other landlords have successfully charged" but there seems to be a shortage of sites which tell potential landlords "what the average renter can afford". In my town for example rents are $1500-3000 for the houses the average renter would rent...but the "average renter" in my area only makes ~$35k/year. This means to live comfortably and have growth they cannot pay more than $1k/mo. Even before Realpage there was the whole "my golf buddy says I am not charging enough...so rent needs to go up". This type of thinking allows "normally ethical" people to act in ways that they may not if they had all the info. If there was a site that said "if you charge more than X you are causing poverty in the community" or "at this average rent the workforce will start to leave the area". I am currently in a town with massive commercial vacancies (commercial units and corporate apartments). Everywhere you go there are for lease signs on long empty (and very nice) buildings. Most businesses in town have now hiring signs (1500 unfilled jobs in the county)...but for some reason unless you are in the declining class it seems everyone has blinders on. What I am asking for is a call to action. I think a site like this can be setup in a way that is factual (using locally done studies from Universities for example). The world needs more "ethical capitalisim"...those involved can make the choice on their own to not hurt others without having to create new laws and restrictions (those only help the corporate landlord). I have faith that the good in people will prevail if we simply stop making it seem like raising rents is just "what you do" even if you don't need to. The 50-100% increase in the most expensive thing most people pay for in their lives can do nothing but drive inflation and push out the workforce. The hopelessness amongst those who "didn't make the cut" is getting bad...you can see it in the eyes of the people. Hackernews...you can make a difference. It is your choice...we can continue making apps/companies that hurt society...or maybe we can make one that "might" help.
  - phendrenad2 2y ago
    I doubt any of the employees of RealPage visit HN. I would guesstimate that probably about 1% of the total software developers worldwide actually visit here.
    - Ccecil 2y ago
      Is the implication that only they can make the site? I am confident there are plenty here who could whip a demo up in a weekend.
  - TheDong 2y ago
    Unfortunately, most of these companies have share-holders, and thus the directors of the company have a legal fiduciary duty to the shareholders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule If the directors intentionally forgo profit, they could be criminally liable, even if they do so with the intent of helping the community at the expense of the shareholders. Capitalism is designed, legally designed, to not be ethical, unless "maximizing profit" is your ethical code. Essentially, externalities, like destroying the environment and widening the wealth-gap, are capitalism working as designed. As such, we need specific laws to protect communities and people, though right now "laws" seem rather unpopular in quite a few countries.
    - Ccecil 2y ago
      Yes...it is too late for the companies that exist already. No reason we cannot have a non profit counterargument to Realpage. Issue with new laws IMHO is "...the more rules and regulations...the more thieves and robbers..." and it seems to be in the past that more regulations just helps those causing the problem. The issue isn't that we need to remove the landlords...society needs to explain that they are not acting ethically. I would even be happy with just not giving handshakes and back pats to those who act in destructive ways. The average renter in my area makes ~$35k/year...but the average realtor makes $135k (according to glassdoor). At some point this just pushes out the "average".
    - hamandcheese 2y ago
- MengerSponge 2y ago
  Cartel Activity As A Service
  - itake 2y ago
    I saw another comment on this topic how before the software existed, these companies would call up their competitor's offices to get their pricing. My understanding is this software does the same thing (via scraping their websites?). I'm not sure I fully understand the issue? like should competitors not be allow to price themselves based on their competitors? collecting competitor pricing data shouldn't be real-time and automatic? Corporate landlords shouldn't/can't hire consulting firms to assist with pricing based on their competitor's data?
    - runsfromfire 2y ago
      If most/all of the major players used the same consulting firm, wouldn’t that be a conflict of interest that borders on - perhaps even is outright - breaking the law?
      - margalabargala 2y ago
        My understanding is that it goes well beyond that. If I recall correctly, as a condition of using their service to show you competitor's prices and industry information, you also had to agree to use their suggested pricing.
      - itake 2y ago
        how is this different from all hotels using booking.com or airbnb and getting suggestion pricing from them?
        runsfromfire 2y ago
        Are you asking how a middleman is different than a consultant firm controlling the industry via proxy?
    - 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- davidw 2y ago
  Everyone wants someone to blame besides the things that actual cause the problem: * Their NIMBY neighbors * NIMBY zoning If you actually show up to local hearings and city council meetings and the like, you see that the housing crisis is mostly local, even if, emotionally, it feels great to blame it on some far off entity: https://bendyimby.com/2024/04/16/the-hearing-and-the-housing-shortage/ https://bendyimby.com/2024/04/16/the-hearing-and-the-housing... People who actually study this stuff back this up with numbers: * https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/2/21-going-after-corporate-homebuyers-good-politics-ineffective-policy https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/2/21-going-after-co... * https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/housing-crisis-hedge-funds-private-equity-scapegoat/672839/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/housing-cr...
  - bsder 2y ago
    This doesn't apply in places like Austin where people just build further out. Rent is falling, but nowhere near as fast as it should be. These kinds of "algorithms" that are effectively "outsourced collusion" are the reasons why. Even worse, there is zero reason why these companies should exist except for "collusion as a service". Rental property pricing isn't rocket science. Set an occupancy target percentage and then adjust the price up or down to reach that target. The rental prices would then be responsive to the market conditions with absolutely no collusion whatsoever. But that won't do what the landlords want which is prevent the price from going down at all.
    - davidw 2y ago
      If the algorithms are so good, why don't landlords in Houston use them to charge San Francisco prices? I think it's possible that RealPage adds a few percentage points to rents, and that's a bad thing. 1% over a bunch of rentals is a lot of money and harm to renters and that's worth suing over. That said, 1 or 2% here or there is no match for "supply and demand".
      - bsder 2y ago
        You can see the difference in Austin in private equity owned apartments vs random houses or apartment buildings that predate that. The private equity development apartments are all in on RealPage and are in absolute lockstep with one another (they also have a whole host of dark patterns which I won't get into). So, it's not enough to have development, you have to have development that isn't private equity driven. The stuff that has a single owner is several hundred dollars cheaper and the differential is increasing. Some of this is age of the aprtment complex, but the age differential has been pretty small in areas where the university students drive demand. It's not just RealPage. For example, being able to eat the rental loss of unoccupied apartments is because private equity plays financing games and is willing to give up huge amounts of cash inflow in order to avoid paying any amount of cash outflow. However, RealPage is one of the legs of the stool.
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  "Unions are bad... except for the upper classes for the sole purpose of exploiting everyone else." The french already have an invention for this kind of activity.
  - analog31 2y ago
    Tumbrils?
    - throwup238 2y ago
      Keep going. Almost there!
  - Perceval 2y ago
    Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, Chap. XI, Part III, "Rent of Land: Conclusion" Subtitle: "but the interest of those who live by profit has not the same connexion with the general interest of society" > "His employers constitute the third order, that of those who live by profit. it is the stock that is employed for the sake of profit, which puts into motion the greater part of the useful labor of every society. The plans and projects of the employers of stock regulate and direct all the most important operations of labor, and profit is the end proposed by all those plans and projects. But the rate of profit does not, like rent and wages, rise with the prosperity, and fall with the declension, of the society. On the contrary, it is naturally low in rich, and high in poor countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin... > Their superiority over the country gentleman is, not so much in their knowledge of the public interest, as in their having a better knowledge of their own interest than he has of his. It is by this superior knowledge of their own interest that they have frequently imposed upon his generosity, and persuaded him to give up both his own interest and that of the public, from a very simple but honest conviction, that their interest, and not his, was the interest of the public. The interest of the dealers, however, in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public. To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always in the interest of the dealers... > "The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order or men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it."
- karma_pharmer 2y ago
  Wow we have graduated from clickbaity headlines to clickbaity HN postings. I like articles like the one above where you can see the author's original title, before the editors got their grubby mits on it. Much more informative: Realpage antitrust lawsuits allege collusion among corporate landlords Massively higher information content in that title. But of course, lower "conversion rate" so add moar clickbait.
judge2020 2y ago
The private data mentioned in the lawsuits is about how, daily, realpage-set prices (and probably YieldStar as well) contribute their prices to a shared database. I wouldn't say this is actually "private" data because they only do so after rents are set and after they've appeared publicly on the properties' leasing portals and/or websites. It's basically a way to avoid Realpage from having to scrape their own rent data from their own customers' websites nightly (and from having to do so multiple times for each property that is pulling comparison data to use for the upcoming nightly rent determination). note that realpage isn't using same-day rent prices to enable undercutting or colluding on prices amongst different properties, so you won't find Property As 2br2ba unit costing the exact same amount as neighboring propertys 2br2ba unit on the basis of preventing price competition. As I understand it, the DOJ's basis is that it's illegal to use an algorithm that is both deterministic and also is using said "comparison data" from properties that use the same algorithm. Is this really a sound legal strategy? Algorithms are only algorithms because they're deterministic; if they're not then you've made some form of a ML model. This sounds like apartment communities could only use an algorithm to ingest comp prices and make rent decisions if they commissioned a new bespoke algorithm that can only ever be used by them (what happens if the algorithm supplier copies and pastes code? Or delivers basically the same product with only changes to a seed value?)
- rahimnathwani 2y ago
  AIUI it's not the sharing of info that's illegal, but the coordination of decisions. IIRC from an earlier HN discussion, Realpage's clients had to agree to accept the recommended rent at least 85% (?) of the time.
- sudosysgen 2y ago
  > Algorithms are only algorithms because they're deterministic; if they're not then you've made some form of a ML model. Not at all, many classical algorithms and data structures are and must be probabilistic. Classical quicksort/quickselect is the best example. I think it's just a case of the case being easier to argue this way.
- bobmcnamara 2y ago
  Their argument is that the Sherman act says no-doing-X. Then folks used computers to do X. This is just price fixing with extra steps. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2024/03/price-fixing-algorithm-still-price-fixing https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2024/03/price-fix...
neilv 2y ago
What about effects on the overall market? If large landlords (like the company that bragged about owning 80,000 units) are colluding amongst themselves, then won't property owners not directly colluding also raise prices? How do you provide relief to all those renters?
- flandish 2y ago
  > relief Nationalize (rental) housing or make it so no corporation can own housing. Co-ops where renters are actually owners for large scale buildings. More single family housing. Riots. I mean.. there are lots of ways
  - matchbok 2y ago
    Those are all very bad ideas.
    - lumost 2y ago
      barring rational regulation, we are likely to observe irrational actions in the future. Cost Disease is progressing to the point where prices are non-sensical. How does the median house appreciate more than the median income every year? Carry forward college prices 15 years and a 4 year degree will cost 800k. These are not sustainable numbers. Gen Alpha would be facing a 1.6 MM starting home cost and be saddled with hundreds of thousands in student loan debt.
      - HDThoreaun 2y ago
        Yes, we need to build more houses. Investing in real estate only makes sense when supply is constrained. When we allow people to build housing values tend more toward the cost to build as you cant speculate without constraining supply.
      - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
        Motte-and-bailey fallacy here. We have one comment above asking for nationalization and you are defending regulation which everyone will accept.
scoofy 2y ago
Banning variable residential zoning via separate but equal unconstitutionally and all this goes away? Not sure why some neighborhoods get different restrictive zoning than others…
- HelmetFigNewton 2y ago
  What are you talking about? Why shouldn't people be allowed to choose what kind of neighborhood they want to live in? If you want high density, then choose a high-density area. If not, choose a single-family area. Those areas can be (and are) defined by zoning.
phendrenad2 2y ago
The question isn't did the landlords know that this AI would push rent up. The question is will they continue using it now that they know. And the answer had better be no.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
shrubble 2y ago
Greenspun of "Greenspun's Tenth Law of Programming" has a weblog, interesting tidbit on landlords here:https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2024/04/25/coronapanic-and-landlords/ https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2024/04/25/coronapanic-and... ....(of an acquaintance) He took the opportunity to refinance his properties at a 2 percent rate and also substantially raised the rents that he was charging (i.e., his costs fell and his revenue soared). He estimates that his property doubled in nominal value between 2019 and today. He raised rents by 50 percent.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
florid 2y ago
[dead]
thoughtstheseus 2y ago
#ThomaBravo
hakfoo 2y ago
Do we ever discuss this from first principles? What exactly is the benefit of private ownership of rental properties? Do private landlords do anything better than a state-run housing agency would? If our goal as a civilization is to ensure everyone has adequate, affordable housing, the motives of private landlords seem counterproductive to that goal. Even if you can say "they'll front the money to build more units", it's going to skew towards choices like luxury units that generate above-market returns, not maximizing the number of people with warm beds. If we start from "people need homes" rather than "landowners deserve a return on investment", I'm not sure where you can make a case for anything but bulk appropriation.

77 points by jarbus 2y ago

Rent going up? One company’s algorithm could be why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33224502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33224502 DOJ will examine whether RealPage helped landlords coordinate rent increases: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33744136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33744136

Ccecil 2y ago
I have been meaning for a while now to post about Realpage. I keep seeing how they are causing the market to go higher by collusion. The common thing all these companies seem to do (realpage, zillow, etc) is list the rents "that are what other landlords have successfully charged" but there seems to be a shortage of sites which tell potential landlords "what the average renter can afford". In my town for example rents are $1500-3000 for the houses the average renter would rent...but the "average renter" in my area only makes ~$35k/year. This means to live comfortably and have growth they cannot pay more than $1k/mo. Even before Realpage there was the whole "my golf buddy says I am not charging enough...so rent needs to go up". This type of thinking allows "normally ethical" people to act in ways that they may not if they had all the info. If there was a site that said "if you charge more than X you are causing poverty in the community" or "at this average rent the workforce will start to leave the area". I am currently in a town with massive commercial vacancies (commercial units and corporate apartments). Everywhere you go there are for lease signs on long empty (and very nice) buildings. Most businesses in town have now hiring signs (1500 unfilled jobs in the county)...but for some reason unless you are in the declining class it seems everyone has blinders on. What I am asking for is a call to action. I think a site like this can be setup in a way that is factual (using locally done studies from Universities for example). The world needs more "ethical capitalisim"...those involved can make the choice on their own to not hurt others without having to create new laws and restrictions (those only help the corporate landlord). I have faith that the good in people will prevail if we simply stop making it seem like raising rents is just "what you do" even if you don't need to. The 50-100% increase in the most expensive thing most people pay for in their lives can do nothing but drive inflation and push out the workforce. The hopelessness amongst those who "didn't make the cut" is getting bad...you can see it in the eyes of the people. Hackernews...you can make a difference. It is your choice...we can continue making apps/companies that hurt society...or maybe we can make one that "might" help.
- phendrenad2 2y ago
  I doubt any of the employees of RealPage visit HN. I would guesstimate that probably about 1% of the total software developers worldwide actually visit here.
  - Ccecil 2y ago
    Is the implication that only they can make the site? I am confident there are plenty here who could whip a demo up in a weekend.
- TheDong 2y ago
  Unfortunately, most of these companies have share-holders, and thus the directors of the company have a legal fiduciary duty to the shareholders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule If the directors intentionally forgo profit, they could be criminally liable, even if they do so with the intent of helping the community at the expense of the shareholders. Capitalism is designed, legally designed, to not be ethical, unless "maximizing profit" is your ethical code. Essentially, externalities, like destroying the environment and widening the wealth-gap, are capitalism working as designed. As such, we need specific laws to protect communities and people, though right now "laws" seem rather unpopular in quite a few countries.
  - Ccecil 2y ago
    Yes...it is too late for the companies that exist already. No reason we cannot have a non profit counterargument to Realpage. Issue with new laws IMHO is "...the more rules and regulations...the more thieves and robbers..." and it seems to be in the past that more regulations just helps those causing the problem. The issue isn't that we need to remove the landlords...society needs to explain that they are not acting ethically. I would even be happy with just not giving handshakes and back pats to those who act in destructive ways. The average renter in my area makes ~$35k/year...but the average realtor makes $135k (according to glassdoor). At some point this just pushes out the "average".
  - hamandcheese 2y ago
MengerSponge 2y ago
Cartel Activity As A Service
- itake 2y ago
  I saw another comment on this topic how before the software existed, these companies would call up their competitor's offices to get their pricing. My understanding is this software does the same thing (via scraping their websites?). I'm not sure I fully understand the issue? like should competitors not be allow to price themselves based on their competitors? collecting competitor pricing data shouldn't be real-time and automatic? Corporate landlords shouldn't/can't hire consulting firms to assist with pricing based on their competitor's data?
  - runsfromfire 2y ago
    If most/all of the major players used the same consulting firm, wouldn’t that be a conflict of interest that borders on - perhaps even is outright - breaking the law?
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      My understanding is that it goes well beyond that. If I recall correctly, as a condition of using their service to show you competitor's prices and industry information, you also had to agree to use their suggested pricing.
    - itake 2y ago
      how is this different from all hotels using booking.com or airbnb and getting suggestion pricing from them?
      - runsfromfire 2y ago
        Are you asking how a middleman is different than a consultant firm controlling the industry via proxy?
  - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
davidw 2y ago
Everyone wants someone to blame besides the things that actual cause the problem: * Their NIMBY neighbors * NIMBY zoning If you actually show up to local hearings and city council meetings and the like, you see that the housing crisis is mostly local, even if, emotionally, it feels great to blame it on some far off entity: https://bendyimby.com/2024/04/16/the-hearing-and-the-housing-shortage/ https://bendyimby.com/2024/04/16/the-hearing-and-the-housing... People who actually study this stuff back this up with numbers: * https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/2/21-going-after-corporate-homebuyers-good-politics-ineffective-policy https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2024/2/21-going-after-co... * https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/housing-crisis-hedge-funds-private-equity-scapegoat/672839/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/housing-cr...
- bsder 2y ago
  This doesn't apply in places like Austin where people just build further out. Rent is falling, but nowhere near as fast as it should be. These kinds of "algorithms" that are effectively "outsourced collusion" are the reasons why. Even worse, there is zero reason why these companies should exist except for "collusion as a service". Rental property pricing isn't rocket science. Set an occupancy target percentage and then adjust the price up or down to reach that target. The rental prices would then be responsive to the market conditions with absolutely no collusion whatsoever. But that won't do what the landlords want which is prevent the price from going down at all.
  - davidw 2y ago
    If the algorithms are so good, why don't landlords in Houston use them to charge San Francisco prices? I think it's possible that RealPage adds a few percentage points to rents, and that's a bad thing. 1% over a bunch of rentals is a lot of money and harm to renters and that's worth suing over. That said, 1 or 2% here or there is no match for "supply and demand".
    - bsder 2y ago
      You can see the difference in Austin in private equity owned apartments vs random houses or apartment buildings that predate that. The private equity development apartments are all in on RealPage and are in absolute lockstep with one another (they also have a whole host of dark patterns which I won't get into). So, it's not enough to have development, you have to have development that isn't private equity driven. The stuff that has a single owner is several hundred dollars cheaper and the differential is increasing. Some of this is age of the aprtment complex, but the age differential has been pretty small in areas where the university students drive demand. It's not just RealPage. For example, being able to eat the rental loss of unoccupied apartments is because private equity plays financing games and is willing to give up huge amounts of cash inflow in order to avoid paying any amount of cash outflow. However, RealPage is one of the legs of the stool.
whoknowsidont 2y ago
"Unions are bad... except for the upper classes for the sole purpose of exploiting everyone else." The french already have an invention for this kind of activity.
- analog31 2y ago
  Tumbrils?
  - throwup238 2y ago
    Keep going. Almost there!
- Perceval 2y ago
  Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, Chap. XI, Part III, "Rent of Land: Conclusion" Subtitle: "but the interest of those who live by profit has not the same connexion with the general interest of society" > "His employers constitute the third order, that of those who live by profit. it is the stock that is employed for the sake of profit, which puts into motion the greater part of the useful labor of every society. The plans and projects of the employers of stock regulate and direct all the most important operations of labor, and profit is the end proposed by all those plans and projects. But the rate of profit does not, like rent and wages, rise with the prosperity, and fall with the declension, of the society. On the contrary, it is naturally low in rich, and high in poor countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin... > Their superiority over the country gentleman is, not so much in their knowledge of the public interest, as in their having a better knowledge of their own interest than he has of his. It is by this superior knowledge of their own interest that they have frequently imposed upon his generosity, and persuaded him to give up both his own interest and that of the public, from a very simple but honest conviction, that their interest, and not his, was the interest of the public. The interest of the dealers, however, in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public. To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always in the interest of the dealers... > "The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order or men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it."
karma_pharmer 2y ago
Wow we have graduated from clickbaity headlines to clickbaity HN postings. I like articles like the one above where you can see the author's original title, before the editors got their grubby mits on it. Much more informative: Realpage antitrust lawsuits allege collusion among corporate landlords Massively higher information content in that title. But of course, lower "conversion rate" so add moar clickbait.

judge2020 2y ago

The private data mentioned in the lawsuits is about how, daily, realpage-set prices (and probably YieldStar as well) contribute their prices to a shared database. I wouldn't say this is actually "private" data because they only do so after rents are set and after they've appeared publicly on the properties' leasing portals and/or websites. It's basically a way to avoid Realpage from having to scrape their own rent data from their own customers' websites nightly (and from having to do so multiple times for each property that is pulling comparison data to use for the upcoming nightly rent determination). note that realpage isn't using same-day rent prices to enable undercutting or colluding on prices amongst different properties, so you won't find Property As 2br2ba unit costing the exact same amount as neighboring propertys 2br2ba unit on the basis of preventing price competition. As I understand it, the DOJ's basis is that it's illegal to use an algorithm that is both deterministic and also is using said "comparison data" from properties that use the same algorithm. Is this really a sound legal strategy? Algorithms are only algorithms because they're deterministic; if they're not then you've made some form of a ML model. This sounds like apartment communities could only use an algorithm to ingest comp prices and make rent decisions if they commissioned a new bespoke algorithm that can only ever be used by them (what happens if the algorithm supplier copies and pastes code? Or delivers basically the same product with only changes to a seed value?)

rahimnathwani 2y ago
AIUI it's not the sharing of info that's illegal, but the coordination of decisions. IIRC from an earlier HN discussion, Realpage's clients had to agree to accept the recommended rent at least 85% (?) of the time.
sudosysgen 2y ago
> Algorithms are only algorithms because they're deterministic; if they're not then you've made some form of a ML model. Not at all, many classical algorithms and data structures are and must be probabilistic. Classical quicksort/quickselect is the best example. I think it's just a case of the case being easier to argue this way.
bobmcnamara 2y ago
Their argument is that the Sherman act says no-doing-X. Then folks used computers to do X. This is just price fixing with extra steps. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2024/03/price-fixing-algorithm-still-price-fixing https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2024/03/price-fix...

neilv 2y ago

What about effects on the overall market? If large landlords (like the company that bragged about owning 80,000 units) are colluding amongst themselves, then won't property owners not directly colluding also raise prices? How do you provide relief to all those renters?

flandish 2y ago
> relief Nationalize (rental) housing or make it so no corporation can own housing. Co-ops where renters are actually owners for large scale buildings. More single family housing. Riots. I mean.. there are lots of ways
- matchbok 2y ago
  Those are all very bad ideas.
  - lumost 2y ago
    barring rational regulation, we are likely to observe irrational actions in the future. Cost Disease is progressing to the point where prices are non-sensical. How does the median house appreciate more than the median income every year? Carry forward college prices 15 years and a 4 year degree will cost 800k. These are not sustainable numbers. Gen Alpha would be facing a 1.6 MM starting home cost and be saddled with hundreds of thousands in student loan debt.
    - HDThoreaun 2y ago
      Yes, we need to build more houses. Investing in real estate only makes sense when supply is constrained. When we allow people to build housing values tend more toward the cost to build as you cant speculate without constraining supply.
    - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
      Motte-and-bailey fallacy here. We have one comment above asking for nationalization and you are defending regulation which everyone will accept.

scoofy 2y ago

Banning variable residential zoning via separate but equal unconstitutionally and all this goes away? Not sure why some neighborhoods get different restrictive zoning than others…

HelmetFigNewton 2y ago
What are you talking about? Why shouldn't people be allowed to choose what kind of neighborhood they want to live in? If you want high density, then choose a high-density area. If not, choose a single-family area. Those areas can be (and are) defined by zoning.

phendrenad2 2y ago

The question isn't did the landlords know that this AI would push rent up. The question is will they continue using it now that they know. And the answer had better be no.

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shrubble 2y ago

Greenspun of "Greenspun's Tenth Law of Programming" has a weblog, interesting tidbit on landlords here:https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2024/04/25/coronapanic-and-landlords/ https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2024/04/25/coronapanic-and... ....(of an acquaintance) He took the opportunity to refinance his properties at a 2 percent rate and also substantially raised the rents that he was charging (i.e., his costs fell and his revenue soared). He estimates that his property doubled in nominal value between 2019 and today. He raised rents by 50 percent.

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florid 2y ago

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thoughtstheseus 2y ago

#ThomaBravo

hakfoo 2y ago

Do we ever discuss this from first principles? What exactly is the benefit of private ownership of rental properties? Do private landlords do anything better than a state-run housing agency would? If our goal as a civilization is to ensure everyone has adequate, affordable housing, the motives of private landlords seem counterproductive to that goal. Even if you can say "they'll front the money to build more units", it's going to skew towards choices like luxury units that generate above-market returns, not maximizing the number of people with warm beds. If we start from "people need homes" rather than "landowners deserve a return on investment", I'm not sure where you can make a case for anything but bulk appropriation.