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What the article does not seem to mention is that an usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 (and is intended to be replaced every six years or so). This

What the article does not seem to mention is that an usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 (and is intended to be replaced every six years or so). This and the non-availability of replacement parts is why some wheelchair users started a project to open-source a wheelchair from standard parts: https://themif.org/ https://themif.org/ Louis Rossmann interviewed the founder of the project here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaAj59025Kk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaAj59025Kk

renewiltord 2y ago
This is a great project. I didn't realize that FDA Class I regulations were this easy to comply with.
- readyman 2y ago
  >I didn't realize that FDA Class I regulations were this easy to comply with. They definitely won't be once this open source effort shows any sign of success. You can't solve political problems with technical solutions. At best, you may be able to displace them, but even that is rare.
  - minusLik 2y ago
    > You can't solve political problems with technical solutions. Yes, that's what I've been thinking too. Tom Quiter even mentions in the interview that there already have been companies which tried to offer cheap wheelchairs, but the quasi-monopolists had the FDA alter the regulations in a way with which the newbies couldn't comply. However, since the MIF already attracted suppliers, I hope they can gain some leverage.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    I only just noticed that the wheelchair https://libertymemesfoundation.org/donations/endurance-the-open-source-wheelchair/ https://libertymemesfoundation.org/donations/endurance-the-o... is actually a Class 2 device. That sounds really hard to get past the FDA. I think it's pretty cool still because folks with the knowhow could make their own, but the disabled are probably SOL because you can't really make these for sale without that. I suppose the FDA's reasoning is that they're better off having no mobility than having a device that doesn't work properly.
    - icegreentea2 2y ago
      I don't think powered wheelchairs should be Class II, but we should be a bit kinder to the FDA. The FDA is not comparing no mobility and simply an inoperable device, the FDA is comparing no mobility vs the possible outcomes of an malfunctioning device. Like perhaps what happens if the throttle gets stuck on forward.
      - readyman 2y ago
        The FDA serves many compromised purposes that, in sum, prioritize the interests of the capitalists who predominately control it. The same can be said for the entire US government.
        wolverine876 2y ago
        Everyone keeps repeating it, but could you give evidence of that happening? Who are the commissioners? What about the staff?
        readyman 2y ago
        The rich keep getting richer faster at the expense of everyone else.
        wolverine876 2y ago
        That could have many causes. What evidence connects it to regulations? Usually, regulation limits excesses and can keep markets more open.
        throwaway173738 2y ago
        I can assure you that the FDA does no such thing, as I have been through a very difficult 510k at a previous employer.
    - HillRat 2y ago
      Without commenting on the specific standards and regulations, the parade of horribles that could go wrong with a powered wheelchair is pretty extensive, when realizing that when a wheelchair goes wrong the user cannot move away from it. Consider the risks of a battery fire you can't escape, a drivetrain that could grab loose clothing around a pair of immobile legs, or a user whose wheelchair dies on an empty street at night at -10°F because it couldn't handle the cold for long enough. This doesn't mean the incumbents aren't fixing the regulations to ensure they've got a manufacturing moat -- this being healthcare, I assume that's exactly what they're doing -- but the FDA definitely has reasons to make sure these are regulated.
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    When replicators are invented, most political problems will disappear. Star Trek got it right.
    - krapp 2y ago
      Star Trek style replicators can't be invented. The laws of physics won't allow it. It will always cost more energy and be vastly less efficient to assemble a cup of coffee atom by atom than it would to just grow the beans, have them picked, packaged and shipped, and make it yourself, and unlike in Star Trek, energy in the real world isn't free. You might say we could come close with advanced 3D printing and some kind of nanotech,but no such technology will ever be so cheap or ubiquitous as to render politics obsolete. History is replete with advancements and inventions which were supposed to usher in utopia, and all they have ever done is further the means by which the powerful enslave and control us. Technology cannot solve human nature.
      - throwaway11460 2y ago
        Energy in Star Trek is not free either, just too cheap to meter. They use fusion and matter-antimatter reactors. Once we get there we will also have more than enough energy to power the potential replicator. Though I agree we probably won't be using it to replicate a cup of Earl Grey for a very long time.
      - serf 2y ago
        >History is replete with advancements and inventions which were supposed to usher in utopia, and all they have ever done is further the means by which the powerful enslave and control us. Technology cannot solve human nature. humans are more sovereign than ever before in most calculable metrics.
        krapp 2y ago
        What "calculable metrics?" By what definition of "sovereign?" Objectively, this is a meaningless statement to me.
cogman10 2y ago
Really cool that an electric wheelchair costs more than a luxury EV and is somehow less reliable.
- loceng 2y ago
  Reminds me of the military industrial complex.
  - Eggs-n-Jakey 2y ago
    Ya this reminded my of a Palmer Lucky interview where he explained how the prices are created. Can't remember off the top of my head but there was substantial incentive to build with the most expensive materials, doesn't seem like the case here though.
    - Spivak 2y ago
      From a friend who is a Navy engineer this is apparently on purpose is done as a form of economic stimulus. Overpay 10x for things to support the local economy around the base.
- VHRanger 2y ago
  Wheelchair users have no bargaining power against wheelchair makers. Car buyers have leverage. Normally this exorbitant price would incentivize competition in a healthy market, but the private equity players presumably make that difficult. There might also be barriers to entry in the market.
  - ptero 2y ago
    I suspect in the US the lack of competition is due to regulation and liability, not VCs.
    - makmanalp 2y ago
      Isn't the auto industry notoriously jam packed with regulation?
tdeck 2y ago
I was curious what parts they were using in their design but couldn't find any actual open source design content. The website seems to be 100% fundraising copy. The idea seems good, I hope this doesn't turn out to be another piece of accessible tech vaporware.
- seventytwo 2y ago
  How hard would it be to do a project like the voron printer project where it’s just the plans and BOM?
  - tdeck 2y ago
    I imagine developing the project would be a significant effort, but I think publishing some intermediate progress is a good idea. It's very suspicious to me that this site is full of biographies and fundraising CTAs and yet there's no detail about the technical side of the project. At best, that's not likely to lead to a meaningful open hardware outcome that others can use and collaborate on.
ashton314 2y ago
> usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 This puts the Bluey episode "Granny Mobile" in context, where the grouchy granny wants to buy the used wheelchair for a mere $100. $1,200 is still an incredible deal.
somethoughts 2y ago
To be honest - it actually seems like a risky Private Equity play as I bet the $65000 sticker price is due to the fact that Medicare is footing the bill. Medicare is likely what is requiring a regulation grade wheel chair, not the users themselves. I bet a huge segment of the user base could easily self purchase a mobility scooter and achieve the same quality of life if the price point was such that they could out of pocket the purchase and there was decent quality/repairability/safety. There do seem to be a fair number that are approaching "geez I might as well just buy an over the counter version" (i.e. sub-$2000) instead of going through the paperwork hassle of getting a free Medicare "prescription" for one.
- heyoni 2y ago
  In my experience, the chairs and how they’re built aren’t what adds to the price tag; the fact that an insurance company is paying is what is. My daughter literally just got approved for a talking device that would otherwise cost us $4000. It’s a Samsung tablet with $300 software and an attached speaker and comes with some sort of repair agreement. I can buy and break 20 iPads for that price…and we did end up buying one with the software on its own. If you want to know who’s causing waste, look to the ones who stand to benefit from it.
  - whynotkeithberg 2y ago
    For most people on here, they're more likely to believe that the disabled people are needy & expecting way to much rather than the companies behind it including insurance being greedy as hell.
    - zamadatix 2y ago
      What prompted you say this in the top voted comment chain where each ancestor comment says the exact opposite of said view?
  - newsclues 2y ago
    It’s similar to defence procurement. If the customer is government with endless budget, inflate costs, and use regulatory capture to maintain the cash flow.
floxy 2y ago
>an usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 Can you go into what that statement means? I'm having a hard time parsing "an usual". Seems like there are some electric wheelchairs for ~$2,000: https://www.forbes.com/health/accessibility/best-electric-wheelchairs/ https://www.forbes.com/health/accessibility/best-electric-wh... ...maybe some specialized wheelchairs cost considerably more?
- lagniappe 2y ago
  Some folks in europe have a hard time knowing when to use a or an because there are so many exceptions, (a before consonant, an before open vowel sound) particularly in areas that pronounce it as oo-sual and not you-shual.
- tyingq 2y ago
  It's a complex set of sub-markets. Like, for example, if your kid has one...it has to be NHSTA crash test certified to put on a school bus. Or, for people with very limited mobility, they need very special cushioning to avoid bedsore type problems. Just 2 examples, there are many more. Though $65k still strikes me as unusual.
- serf 2y ago
  none of those chairs in that article is realistically a full-time use electric chair; they're more akin to 'adult scooters' than that. The purpose of most of the chairs in the article linked is to make ease of travel easier; that's why they mostly all fold. Here's an example of a real full-time use electric chair. [0] It's front wheel drive, has standard attachment points for medical devices, a standardized controller interface that can be adapted to just about anyone, false bogey-arm suspension for stability sake, and all the certs. It starts around 8k-ish out of pocket. I don't use electric chairs myself, so i'm unfamiliar with what insurance/medicare costs would be. I pay ~2-4k out of pocket for a manual wheelchairs 20% co-pay through medicare, to give an example of the costs of things. Electric full-time use chairs are astronomically more expensive. [0]: https://rehab.invacare.com/Power-Mobility/Invacare-AVIVA-FX-Power-Wheelchair https://rehab.invacare.com/Power-Mobility/Invacare-AVIVA-FX-...
carabiner 2y ago
Should be "a usual" because "usual" starts with a consonant sound. Otherwise could sound like "unusual."
- dumpsterdiver 2y ago
  It would be better to simply use the adverb form "usually" and apply it to the word "cost", instead of using the adjective "usual" and applying it to "electric wheelchair". "Electric wheelchairs usually cost a lot of money." vs. "A usual electric wheelchair costs a lot of money." The second form begs the question, what is it that comprises a "usual" electric wheelchair? What would make an electric wheelchair seem "unusual"? A custom muffler? The statement creates more questions than it provides answers. The first form however is simple and clear. What about these wheelchairs can be considered "usual"? The cost. They cost about the same. What would make a wheelchair expressed in this context unusual? The cost. It's either cheaper or more expensive. No additional unanswered questions have been created by expressing the statement in this form.
paulddraper 2y ago
> a usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 A usual one?!? The MSRP of a 2024 Tesla Model S is $72,990. --- EDIT: Do you have a source?
dukeyukey 2y ago
How tf does an electric wheelchair cost that when a standard wheelchair is a few hundred and a solid e-bike is a couple grand?
- rdtsc 2y ago
  Captured market. Some of the costs are paid by insurance, so it's seen as "not hurting consumers, since, hey! insurance pays for it anyway". The article does mention this bit to sort of justify the cost: > To get such a chair, a person needs a prescription, authorization from their insurance company, and a custom fitting from an assistive technology professional. Like a tailor crafting an exquisite suit, these technicians meticulously measure a client’s body to ensure the device’s specifications will match. In many cases, yeah the wheelchair is specialized and has features that each individual needs. My friend with muscular dystrophy had one of those. But the drivetrain and the lead acid batteries seemed generic enough though possibly a higher quality, but it was definitely not something that should cost $65k.
- wolverine876 2y ago
  These are not just powered wheelchairs, but specialized vehicles for particular needs. Someone else in the thread describes them.
digger495 2y ago
They do not. I just was fitted for one. I asked "how much is this retail, out the door, cash?" $24,000. So if Medicare is paying $65k, something is seriously wrong.
- CodeWriter23 2y ago
  Welcome to American healthcare. I bought a CPAP machine for $800 cash about 10 years ago but signed paperwork saying it cost $2500 and assigning them the right to collect from my insurer. I had none at the time. Don't know if the billed Medi-Cal on my behalf [scratches chin].
  - cjalmeida 2y ago
    This smells like the supplier is running some sort of insurance fraud scheme
    - CodeWriter23 2y ago
      I think it’s pretty standard in the medical industry. Signed similar at doctors offices and hospitals. Everything is cheaper if you self-pay.
- silisili 2y ago
  With all due respect, that figure is still absolutely insane.
WanderPanda 2y ago
Seems like the best way forward would be to give some smaller amount, lets say $30,000 to the one in need and let them shop around for the best solution and keep the (probably still sizable) difference
CodeWriter23 2y ago
> is why some wheelchair users started a project to open-source a wheelchair from standard parts: https://themif.org/ https://themif.org/ Can you point to any project site that has released anything along this line? Blueprints, bills of material, code? There's nothing on the site you linked having any such resources. The closest thing is a block diagram including an RS-485 motor controller, which doesn't really seem like an alternative to standard parts at first glance.
- timschmidt 2y ago
  We have collected all the documentation from the WHIM Wheelchair development effort at https://wiki.replimat.org/wiki/Wheelchairs https://wiki.replimat.org/wiki/Wheelchairs
  - hedora 2y ago
    Since the US ones are disposable anyway, here are come comparables for well under $3K (often under $1K) https://www.aliexpress.us/w/wholesale-Electric-wheelchair.html https://www.aliexpress.us/w/wholesale-Electric-wheelchair.ht... No idea if it makes more sense to buy those, design from scratch, use those for inspiration, or buy one, tear it down, and rip off the bill of materials.
  - CodeWriter23 2y ago
    Thanks! I love it, ++using the extruded steel posts commonly used for street signs
homefree 2y ago
A better wheelchair seems like a fun project and if the costs are that extreme probably not so hard to do better (unless the costs are extreme because regulation prohibits a good market). It’d be fun to take advancements in electric mobility devices to wheelchairs.
- manquer 2y ago
  there are some projects which are there doing it for fun. This one from Youtuber Jerry Rig Everything https://notawheelchair.com/products/the-rig https://notawheelchair.com/products/the-rig He usually reviews mobile phone durability etc, there are videos on his channel about the chair, this started as project for his wife who was paralyzed in riding accident very young. Akin to the flamethrower that Musk was selling a while back as long you don’t call it a medical device there isn’t much regulations (hard to differentiate say a Walmart scooter style device from a actual wheelchair) Of course if it’s not a medical device it won’t qualify for insurance or Medicare , but you can still sell it for reasonable prices
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

renewiltord 2y ago

This is a great project. I didn't realize that FDA Class I regulations were this easy to comply with.

readyman 2y ago
>I didn't realize that FDA Class I regulations were this easy to comply with. They definitely won't be once this open source effort shows any sign of success. You can't solve political problems with technical solutions. At best, you may be able to displace them, but even that is rare.
- minusLik 2y ago
  > You can't solve political problems with technical solutions. Yes, that's what I've been thinking too. Tom Quiter even mentions in the interview that there already have been companies which tried to offer cheap wheelchairs, but the quasi-monopolists had the FDA alter the regulations in a way with which the newbies couldn't comply. However, since the MIF already attracted suppliers, I hope they can gain some leverage.
- renewiltord 2y ago
  I only just noticed that the wheelchair https://libertymemesfoundation.org/donations/endurance-the-open-source-wheelchair/ https://libertymemesfoundation.org/donations/endurance-the-o... is actually a Class 2 device. That sounds really hard to get past the FDA. I think it's pretty cool still because folks with the knowhow could make their own, but the disabled are probably SOL because you can't really make these for sale without that. I suppose the FDA's reasoning is that they're better off having no mobility than having a device that doesn't work properly.
  - icegreentea2 2y ago
    I don't think powered wheelchairs should be Class II, but we should be a bit kinder to the FDA. The FDA is not comparing no mobility and simply an inoperable device, the FDA is comparing no mobility vs the possible outcomes of an malfunctioning device. Like perhaps what happens if the throttle gets stuck on forward.
    - readyman 2y ago
      The FDA serves many compromised purposes that, in sum, prioritize the interests of the capitalists who predominately control it. The same can be said for the entire US government.
      - wolverine876 2y ago
        Everyone keeps repeating it, but could you give evidence of that happening? Who are the commissioners? What about the staff?
        readyman 2y ago
        The rich keep getting richer faster at the expense of everyone else.
        wolverine876 2y ago
        That could have many causes. What evidence connects it to regulations? Usually, regulation limits excesses and can keep markets more open.
      - throwaway173738 2y ago
        I can assure you that the FDA does no such thing, as I have been through a very difficult 510k at a previous employer.
  - HillRat 2y ago
    Without commenting on the specific standards and regulations, the parade of horribles that could go wrong with a powered wheelchair is pretty extensive, when realizing that when a wheelchair goes wrong the user cannot move away from it. Consider the risks of a battery fire you can't escape, a drivetrain that could grab loose clothing around a pair of immobile legs, or a user whose wheelchair dies on an empty street at night at -10°F because it couldn't handle the cold for long enough. This doesn't mean the incumbents aren't fixing the regulations to ensure they've got a manufacturing moat -- this being healthcare, I assume that's exactly what they're doing -- but the FDA definitely has reasons to make sure these are regulated.
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  When replicators are invented, most political problems will disappear. Star Trek got it right.
  - krapp 2y ago
    Star Trek style replicators can't be invented. The laws of physics won't allow it. It will always cost more energy and be vastly less efficient to assemble a cup of coffee atom by atom than it would to just grow the beans, have them picked, packaged and shipped, and make it yourself, and unlike in Star Trek, energy in the real world isn't free. You might say we could come close with advanced 3D printing and some kind of nanotech,but no such technology will ever be so cheap or ubiquitous as to render politics obsolete. History is replete with advancements and inventions which were supposed to usher in utopia, and all they have ever done is further the means by which the powerful enslave and control us. Technology cannot solve human nature.
    - throwaway11460 2y ago
      Energy in Star Trek is not free either, just too cheap to meter. They use fusion and matter-antimatter reactors. Once we get there we will also have more than enough energy to power the potential replicator. Though I agree we probably won't be using it to replicate a cup of Earl Grey for a very long time.
    - serf 2y ago
      >History is replete with advancements and inventions which were supposed to usher in utopia, and all they have ever done is further the means by which the powerful enslave and control us. Technology cannot solve human nature. humans are more sovereign than ever before in most calculable metrics.
      - krapp 2y ago
        What "calculable metrics?" By what definition of "sovereign?" Objectively, this is a meaningless statement to me.

cogman10 2y ago

Really cool that an electric wheelchair costs more than a luxury EV and is somehow less reliable.

loceng 2y ago
Reminds me of the military industrial complex.
- Eggs-n-Jakey 2y ago
  Ya this reminded my of a Palmer Lucky interview where he explained how the prices are created. Can't remember off the top of my head but there was substantial incentive to build with the most expensive materials, doesn't seem like the case here though.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    From a friend who is a Navy engineer this is apparently on purpose is done as a form of economic stimulus. Overpay 10x for things to support the local economy around the base.
VHRanger 2y ago
Wheelchair users have no bargaining power against wheelchair makers. Car buyers have leverage. Normally this exorbitant price would incentivize competition in a healthy market, but the private equity players presumably make that difficult. There might also be barriers to entry in the market.
- ptero 2y ago
  I suspect in the US the lack of competition is due to regulation and liability, not VCs.
  - makmanalp 2y ago
    Isn't the auto industry notoriously jam packed with regulation?

tdeck 2y ago

I was curious what parts they were using in their design but couldn't find any actual open source design content. The website seems to be 100% fundraising copy. The idea seems good, I hope this doesn't turn out to be another piece of accessible tech vaporware.

seventytwo 2y ago
How hard would it be to do a project like the voron printer project where it’s just the plans and BOM?
- tdeck 2y ago
  I imagine developing the project would be a significant effort, but I think publishing some intermediate progress is a good idea. It's very suspicious to me that this site is full of biographies and fundraising CTAs and yet there's no detail about the technical side of the project. At best, that's not likely to lead to a meaningful open hardware outcome that others can use and collaborate on.

ashton314 2y ago

> usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 This puts the Bluey episode "Granny Mobile" in context, where the grouchy granny wants to buy the used wheelchair for a mere $100. $1,200 is still an incredible deal.

somethoughts 2y ago

To be honest - it actually seems like a risky Private Equity play as I bet the $65000 sticker price is due to the fact that Medicare is footing the bill. Medicare is likely what is requiring a regulation grade wheel chair, not the users themselves. I bet a huge segment of the user base could easily self purchase a mobility scooter and achieve the same quality of life if the price point was such that they could out of pocket the purchase and there was decent quality/repairability/safety. There do seem to be a fair number that are approaching "geez I might as well just buy an over the counter version" (i.e. sub-$2000) instead of going through the paperwork hassle of getting a free Medicare "prescription" for one.

heyoni 2y ago
In my experience, the chairs and how they’re built aren’t what adds to the price tag; the fact that an insurance company is paying is what is. My daughter literally just got approved for a talking device that would otherwise cost us $4000. It’s a Samsung tablet with $300 software and an attached speaker and comes with some sort of repair agreement. I can buy and break 20 iPads for that price…and we did end up buying one with the software on its own. If you want to know who’s causing waste, look to the ones who stand to benefit from it.
- whynotkeithberg 2y ago
  For most people on here, they're more likely to believe that the disabled people are needy & expecting way to much rather than the companies behind it including insurance being greedy as hell.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    What prompted you say this in the top voted comment chain where each ancestor comment says the exact opposite of said view?
- newsclues 2y ago
  It’s similar to defence procurement. If the customer is government with endless budget, inflate costs, and use regulatory capture to maintain the cash flow.

floxy 2y ago

>an usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 Can you go into what that statement means? I'm having a hard time parsing "an usual". Seems like there are some electric wheelchairs for ~$2,000: https://www.forbes.com/health/accessibility/best-electric-wheelchairs/ https://www.forbes.com/health/accessibility/best-electric-wh... ...maybe some specialized wheelchairs cost considerably more?

lagniappe 2y ago
Some folks in europe have a hard time knowing when to use a or an because there are so many exceptions, (a before consonant, an before open vowel sound) particularly in areas that pronounce it as oo-sual and not you-shual.
tyingq 2y ago
It's a complex set of sub-markets. Like, for example, if your kid has one...it has to be NHSTA crash test certified to put on a school bus. Or, for people with very limited mobility, they need very special cushioning to avoid bedsore type problems. Just 2 examples, there are many more. Though $65k still strikes me as unusual.
serf 2y ago
none of those chairs in that article is realistically a full-time use electric chair; they're more akin to 'adult scooters' than that. The purpose of most of the chairs in the article linked is to make ease of travel easier; that's why they mostly all fold. Here's an example of a real full-time use electric chair. [0] It's front wheel drive, has standard attachment points for medical devices, a standardized controller interface that can be adapted to just about anyone, false bogey-arm suspension for stability sake, and all the certs. It starts around 8k-ish out of pocket. I don't use electric chairs myself, so i'm unfamiliar with what insurance/medicare costs would be. I pay ~2-4k out of pocket for a manual wheelchairs 20% co-pay through medicare, to give an example of the costs of things. Electric full-time use chairs are astronomically more expensive. [0]: https://rehab.invacare.com/Power-Mobility/Invacare-AVIVA-FX-Power-Wheelchair https://rehab.invacare.com/Power-Mobility/Invacare-AVIVA-FX-...

carabiner 2y ago

Should be "a usual" because "usual" starts with a consonant sound. Otherwise could sound like "unusual."

dumpsterdiver 2y ago
It would be better to simply use the adverb form "usually" and apply it to the word "cost", instead of using the adjective "usual" and applying it to "electric wheelchair". "Electric wheelchairs usually cost a lot of money." vs. "A usual electric wheelchair costs a lot of money." The second form begs the question, what is it that comprises a "usual" electric wheelchair? What would make an electric wheelchair seem "unusual"? A custom muffler? The statement creates more questions than it provides answers. The first form however is simple and clear. What about these wheelchairs can be considered "usual"? The cost. They cost about the same. What would make a wheelchair expressed in this context unusual? The cost. It's either cheaper or more expensive. No additional unanswered questions have been created by expressing the statement in this form.

paulddraper 2y ago

> a usual electric wheelchair costs about $65,000 A usual one?!? The MSRP of a 2024 Tesla Model S is $72,990. --- EDIT: Do you have a source?

dukeyukey 2y ago

How tf does an electric wheelchair cost that when a standard wheelchair is a few hundred and a solid e-bike is a couple grand?

rdtsc 2y ago
Captured market. Some of the costs are paid by insurance, so it's seen as "not hurting consumers, since, hey! insurance pays for it anyway". The article does mention this bit to sort of justify the cost: > To get such a chair, a person needs a prescription, authorization from their insurance company, and a custom fitting from an assistive technology professional. Like a tailor crafting an exquisite suit, these technicians meticulously measure a client’s body to ensure the device’s specifications will match. In many cases, yeah the wheelchair is specialized and has features that each individual needs. My friend with muscular dystrophy had one of those. But the drivetrain and the lead acid batteries seemed generic enough though possibly a higher quality, but it was definitely not something that should cost $65k.
wolverine876 2y ago
These are not just powered wheelchairs, but specialized vehicles for particular needs. Someone else in the thread describes them.

digger495 2y ago

They do not. I just was fitted for one. I asked "how much is this retail, out the door, cash?" $24,000. So if Medicare is paying $65k, something is seriously wrong.

CodeWriter23 2y ago
Welcome to American healthcare. I bought a CPAP machine for $800 cash about 10 years ago but signed paperwork saying it cost $2500 and assigning them the right to collect from my insurer. I had none at the time. Don't know if the billed Medi-Cal on my behalf [scratches chin].
- cjalmeida 2y ago
  This smells like the supplier is running some sort of insurance fraud scheme
  - CodeWriter23 2y ago
    I think it’s pretty standard in the medical industry. Signed similar at doctors offices and hospitals. Everything is cheaper if you self-pay.
silisili 2y ago
With all due respect, that figure is still absolutely insane.

WanderPanda 2y ago

Seems like the best way forward would be to give some smaller amount, lets say $30,000 to the one in need and let them shop around for the best solution and keep the (probably still sizable) difference

CodeWriter23 2y ago

> is why some wheelchair users started a project to open-source a wheelchair from standard parts: https://themif.org/ https://themif.org/ Can you point to any project site that has released anything along this line? Blueprints, bills of material, code? There's nothing on the site you linked having any such resources. The closest thing is a block diagram including an RS-485 motor controller, which doesn't really seem like an alternative to standard parts at first glance.

timschmidt 2y ago
We have collected all the documentation from the WHIM Wheelchair development effort at https://wiki.replimat.org/wiki/Wheelchairs https://wiki.replimat.org/wiki/Wheelchairs
- hedora 2y ago
  Since the US ones are disposable anyway, here are come comparables for well under $3K (often under $1K) https://www.aliexpress.us/w/wholesale-Electric-wheelchair.html https://www.aliexpress.us/w/wholesale-Electric-wheelchair.ht... No idea if it makes more sense to buy those, design from scratch, use those for inspiration, or buy one, tear it down, and rip off the bill of materials.
- CodeWriter23 2y ago
  Thanks! I love it, ++using the extruded steel posts commonly used for street signs

homefree 2y ago

A better wheelchair seems like a fun project and if the costs are that extreme probably not so hard to do better (unless the costs are extreme because regulation prohibits a good market). It’d be fun to take advancements in electric mobility devices to wheelchairs.

manquer 2y ago
there are some projects which are there doing it for fun. This one from Youtuber Jerry Rig Everything https://notawheelchair.com/products/the-rig https://notawheelchair.com/products/the-rig He usually reviews mobile phone durability etc, there are videos on his channel about the chair, this started as project for his wife who was paralyzed in riding accident very young. Akin to the flamethrower that Musk was selling a while back as long you don’t call it a medical device there isn’t much regulations (hard to differentiate say a Walmart scooter style device from a actual wheelchair) Of course if it’s not a medical device it won’t qualify for insurance or Medicare , but you can still sell it for reasonable prices

deleted 2y ago

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