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The post suggests their jobs were offshored. Is this a common practice versus just closing the roles? I feel like US legislators should do more to protect domes

The post suggests their jobs were offshored. Is this a common practice versus just closing the roles? I feel like US legislators should do more to protect domestic jobs from domestic companies, or else they’ll face the same eventual collapse as in manufacturing.

zaphar 3y ago
I believe the replacements were already Google employees. Just not python-team employees. So it's sort of offshoring but not exactly. This really doesn't make any sense to me. When I was there python was a pretty big part of the google internal ecosystem. Each major language there had a team supporting it. Not sure why you would be gutting those teams.
- madrox 3y ago
  I get what you're saying about them already being Google employees, but this feels like a loophole and not a material difference. I could see this being exploited if there ever were offshoring rules. Just hire your offshores a month or two ahead of time. That said, I find that most sensitive managerial decisions aren't fully explained right away, if ever. I don't expect someone in this position, especially upset by the change, to know the full story. There's possible extenuating circumstances, such as team performance (even the manager was RIF'd).
darth_avocado 3y ago
Looks like the new roles in Munich, if I’m reading the thread right? Could be more than just offshoring? Why not do India or some other cheaper place instead of Munich which isn’t cheap and has relatively strong labor protections?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Less cultural clashes, and still cheap versus US.
- yadaeno 3y ago
  Just for this specific team. They are “defragging their global footprint” and moving roles to Mexico City, Bangalore, and Germany (probably to to go after gov contracts).
Rapzid 3y ago
This isn't the greatest submission and lacks any semblance of context. The poster is in Netherlands apparently and the new team in Germany? I have no idea what to make of this.
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  My read of it is that a US team was laid off. The poster is in NL and has to train he Munich team. The poster was not laid off.
  - zem 3y ago
    yeah, that's basically it.
- bsimpson 3y ago
  Google pays people by region. As I recall, SF, NYC, and Seattle get full wages, and other geos get discounted by a certain percentage. If you live in the US but not in one of those metros, your pay could be ~15% lower. Yesterday's layoffs seem to have been framed as reorgs. Some teams have been wholly dismissed. Some have been consolidated (two teams -> one team). There does seem to be a pattern that favors people in lower cost regions. For instance, two teams get combined and the higher cost manager is laid off. Or a whole team is laid off, but those duties are being restaffed by people in a lower wage office.
  - sitkack 3y ago
    Wages by Geo is a Urs Hözle move, whom should get paid in NZ dollars.
    - paganel 3y ago
      Interesting, didn’t know that. I remember older threads of people fawning his accomplishments, but nothing about him being a cheap b*stard when it came to his colleagues salaries. We should do more of this name and shaming in our industry, it’s one of the few levers we still have at our disposition.
HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
How do you "protect" a job?
- dec0dedab0de 3y ago
  Tax breaks for hiring citizens. Tariffs for hiring non citizens. Force companies to follow all the same employment laws for employees and contractors in other countries.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 3y ago
    Yeah, and really enforce anti-dumping laws. The cost of living of an Indian developer is way less than that of a US one, especially if the US one is in a high cost of living area such as SF or NYC. How can the US worker complete when they have US housing and college costs, not Indian ones, that need to be paid for? Offshoring like this is allowing dumping of below-cost labor into US markets. Great for US C-suite folk and their profit-based bonuses, and for lobbyists getting paid big bucks to let this happen, but not so great for US citizens trying to make a living as software developers, which one might have thought would be a thing the US would strategically want to encourage, rather than strengthening a foreign country.
    - kaashif 3y ago
      > How can the US worker complete when they have US housing and college costs, not Indian ones, that need to be paid for? In my experience, US workers, even with much higher wages, are simply better than Indian workers being paid much lower wages. Note that Indians being paid US wages, in the US, are fine - you just can't expect much if you're paying peanuts. I have had experiences where entire offshore teams have contributed significant negative value. This false economy is as false as they come. I think a bigger danger to US wages is European offshoring.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    The problem is that companies will simply change the countries they incorporate in. Will SAP be tariffed for hiring Germans (where the company is based) rather than Americans? If not, you are giving SAP an unfair advantage over its American competitor.
VBprogrammer 3y ago
This might be my prejudice but when someone talks about offshoring a role, moving it to Munich isn't the first thing that comes to mind. It may be slightly cheaper than California but not by so much that if expect it to be the main reason for doing so.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  There are tons of people in Europe working as offshore resources for American companies. Being the same Western culture helps a lot versus other areas favoured for offshoring.
- throwaway345435 3y ago
  It's extremely hard to lay off in Germany, so existing Google employees in Germany are, on the margin, nearly free, and so can be reassigned (with something else being done with their current project).
  - allarm 3y ago
    How hard is it? As in - they have to let you work for the duration of the notice period hard? Honest question.
    - dongping 3y ago
      Aside from the mandatory negotiation with the employee co-determination (works council), the layoffs "must be determined according to the principles of social selection [...] (t)his is often perceived as a major obstacle [...] it would be disastrous to have to dismiss top performers simply because they are younger than other employees or have been recently hired." [Source] Random link from the Internet so that I don't need to translate: https://www.emplawyers-muenchen.de/wp-content/uploads/files/docs/RedundancyinGermany_Overview.pdf https://www.emplawyers-muenchen.de/wp-content/uploads/files/...
      - ghosty141 3y ago
        You are on the spot, it's almost impossible to lay somebody off who is like 50 y/o and has kids + has been with the company for quite a while. Generally, workers rights here in Germany are quite good so as an employee life tends to be quite comfortable since you don't have to fear termination the moment the company isn't doing exceptionally well.
vineyardmike 3y ago
Yes it’s common. At Google and across America. When Google did its massive 12k person layoff they moved a lot of those roles to places like India. They had another tranche of layoffs that were “delayed exit” to train those Indian employees.
- bsimpson 3y ago
  Disney famously did this, I think it was tech support for their Florida parks.
- bitcharmer 3y ago
  You can call me bigoted or racist, I don't care. The fact is with moving technical roles to India quality plummets. But I can totally see how in some beancounter's narrow mind this makes perfect sense.
  - kaashif 3y ago
    Cut salaries 90% and quality will drop. It's a false economy however you slice it or wherever the replacements are based. It never works.
  - phendrenad2 3y ago
    Every company thinks that they're going to hack the system. They think that they'll be the first American company to ever outsource and get the best developers. But all of the best developers are happily working for local companies, and they don't want to have to deal with an American boss.
    - huhtenberg 3y ago
      > all of the best developers ... ... have already left the country. It's a joke, but not really.
  - orochimaaru 3y ago
    In this case its Munich I think based on previous comments. Also, in India things depend on who you hire and how much you're willing to pay (like everywhere else). If you pay a salary you expect in rural Alabama in the Bay Area for a tech job you'll attract shitty devs as well. You comment isn't wrong. I've observed the same thing but only when things get outsourced to low cost consulting shops. If Google pays decently in India (which I think they do), they'll get much better devs. There's a pretty strong start-up ecosystem and dev culture but as with everything you need to pay good $$ - as in not 10% of bay area pay but closer to 60-70% of it to attract top talent.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

zaphar 3y ago

I believe the replacements were already Google employees. Just not python-team employees. So it's sort of offshoring but not exactly. This really doesn't make any sense to me. When I was there python was a pretty big part of the google internal ecosystem. Each major language there had a team supporting it. Not sure why you would be gutting those teams.

madrox 3y ago
I get what you're saying about them already being Google employees, but this feels like a loophole and not a material difference. I could see this being exploited if there ever were offshoring rules. Just hire your offshores a month or two ahead of time. That said, I find that most sensitive managerial decisions aren't fully explained right away, if ever. I don't expect someone in this position, especially upset by the change, to know the full story. There's possible extenuating circumstances, such as team performance (even the manager was RIF'd).

darth_avocado 3y ago

Looks like the new roles in Munich, if I’m reading the thread right? Could be more than just offshoring? Why not do India or some other cheaper place instead of Munich which isn’t cheap and has relatively strong labor protections?

pjmlp 3y ago
Less cultural clashes, and still cheap versus US.
yadaeno 3y ago
Just for this specific team. They are “defragging their global footprint” and moving roles to Mexico City, Bangalore, and Germany (probably to to go after gov contracts).

Rapzid 3y ago

This isn't the greatest submission and lacks any semblance of context. The poster is in Netherlands apparently and the new team in Germany? I have no idea what to make of this.

LeafItAlone 3y ago
My read of it is that a US team was laid off. The poster is in NL and has to train he Munich team. The poster was not laid off.
- zem 3y ago
  yeah, that's basically it.
bsimpson 3y ago
Google pays people by region. As I recall, SF, NYC, and Seattle get full wages, and other geos get discounted by a certain percentage. If you live in the US but not in one of those metros, your pay could be ~15% lower. Yesterday's layoffs seem to have been framed as reorgs. Some teams have been wholly dismissed. Some have been consolidated (two teams -> one team). There does seem to be a pattern that favors people in lower cost regions. For instance, two teams get combined and the higher cost manager is laid off. Or a whole team is laid off, but those duties are being restaffed by people in a lower wage office.
- sitkack 3y ago
  Wages by Geo is a Urs Hözle move, whom should get paid in NZ dollars.
  - paganel 3y ago
    Interesting, didn’t know that. I remember older threads of people fawning his accomplishments, but nothing about him being a cheap b*stard when it came to his colleagues salaries. We should do more of this name and shaming in our industry, it’s one of the few levers we still have at our disposition.

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago

How do you "protect" a job?

dec0dedab0de 3y ago
Tax breaks for hiring citizens. Tariffs for hiring non citizens. Force companies to follow all the same employment laws for employees and contractors in other countries.
- HarHarVeryFunny 3y ago
  Yeah, and really enforce anti-dumping laws. The cost of living of an Indian developer is way less than that of a US one, especially if the US one is in a high cost of living area such as SF or NYC. How can the US worker complete when they have US housing and college costs, not Indian ones, that need to be paid for? Offshoring like this is allowing dumping of below-cost labor into US markets. Great for US C-suite folk and their profit-based bonuses, and for lobbyists getting paid big bucks to let this happen, but not so great for US citizens trying to make a living as software developers, which one might have thought would be a thing the US would strategically want to encourage, rather than strengthening a foreign country.
  - kaashif 3y ago
    > How can the US worker complete when they have US housing and college costs, not Indian ones, that need to be paid for? In my experience, US workers, even with much higher wages, are simply better than Indian workers being paid much lower wages. Note that Indians being paid US wages, in the US, are fine - you just can't expect much if you're paying peanuts. I have had experiences where entire offshore teams have contributed significant negative value. This false economy is as false as they come. I think a bigger danger to US wages is European offshoring.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  The problem is that companies will simply change the countries they incorporate in. Will SAP be tariffed for hiring Germans (where the company is based) rather than Americans? If not, you are giving SAP an unfair advantage over its American competitor.

VBprogrammer 3y ago

This might be my prejudice but when someone talks about offshoring a role, moving it to Munich isn't the first thing that comes to mind. It may be slightly cheaper than California but not by so much that if expect it to be the main reason for doing so.

pjmlp 3y ago
There are tons of people in Europe working as offshore resources for American companies. Being the same Western culture helps a lot versus other areas favoured for offshoring.
throwaway345435 3y ago
It's extremely hard to lay off in Germany, so existing Google employees in Germany are, on the margin, nearly free, and so can be reassigned (with something else being done with their current project).
- allarm 3y ago
  How hard is it? As in - they have to let you work for the duration of the notice period hard? Honest question.
  - dongping 3y ago
    Aside from the mandatory negotiation with the employee co-determination (works council), the layoffs "must be determined according to the principles of social selection [...] (t)his is often perceived as a major obstacle [...] it would be disastrous to have to dismiss top performers simply because they are younger than other employees or have been recently hired." [Source] Random link from the Internet so that I don't need to translate: https://www.emplawyers-muenchen.de/wp-content/uploads/files/docs/RedundancyinGermany_Overview.pdf https://www.emplawyers-muenchen.de/wp-content/uploads/files/...
    - ghosty141 3y ago
      You are on the spot, it's almost impossible to lay somebody off who is like 50 y/o and has kids + has been with the company for quite a while. Generally, workers rights here in Germany are quite good so as an employee life tends to be quite comfortable since you don't have to fear termination the moment the company isn't doing exceptionally well.

vineyardmike 3y ago

Yes it’s common. At Google and across America. When Google did its massive 12k person layoff they moved a lot of those roles to places like India. They had another tranche of layoffs that were “delayed exit” to train those Indian employees.

bsimpson 3y ago
Disney famously did this, I think it was tech support for their Florida parks.
bitcharmer 3y ago
You can call me bigoted or racist, I don't care. The fact is with moving technical roles to India quality plummets. But I can totally see how in some beancounter's narrow mind this makes perfect sense.
- kaashif 3y ago
  Cut salaries 90% and quality will drop. It's a false economy however you slice it or wherever the replacements are based. It never works.
- phendrenad2 3y ago
  Every company thinks that they're going to hack the system. They think that they'll be the first American company to ever outsource and get the best developers. But all of the best developers are happily working for local companies, and they don't want to have to deal with an American boss.
  - huhtenberg 3y ago
    > all of the best developers ... ... have already left the country. It's a joke, but not really.
- orochimaaru 3y ago
  In this case its Munich I think based on previous comments. Also, in India things depend on who you hire and how much you're willing to pay (like everywhere else). If you pay a salary you expect in rural Alabama in the Bay Area for a tech job you'll attract shitty devs as well. You comment isn't wrong. I've observed the same thing but only when things get outsourced to low cost consulting shops. If Google pays decently in India (which I think they do), they'll get much better devs. There's a pretty strong start-up ecosystem and dev culture but as with everything you need to pay good $$ - as in not 10% of bay area pay but closer to 60-70% of it to attract top talent.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]