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H5N1 prevalence in milk suggest US bird flu outbreak in cows is widespread
- j-bos 2y agoDoes anyone know if consuming milk containing viral material confers any level of immunity?
- bayindirh 2y agoProbably not. Unless you have ulcers or open wounds in your mouth/trachea, virus will be digested and destroyed in stomach acid.
- iwontberude 2y agoSo, you are saying that maybe if there was some sort of an injection.
- objektif 2y agoWhat happens if I inject milk into my veins? Do I get high?
- optimalsolver 2y agoYou get brie.
- bayindirh 2y agoNo, absolutely not. Plus, don't run experiments on your own body.
- optimalsolver 2y ago>virus will be digested and destroyed in stomach acid So how does food poisoning happen?
- andyferris 2y agoGenerally by bacteria or their byproducts (toxins). Viruses are relatively smaller and more fragile.
- zensavona 2y agoWith bacteria
- bamboozled 2y agoWon't the virus be killed by pasteurization which most milk is?
- LinuxBender 2y agoWould gingivitis [1] or other periodontal diseases count? [1] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9526927/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9526927/
- refurb 2y agoNot really. There are several examples of oral vaccines.
- snakeyjake 2y agoEven oral vaccines containing live viruses see the virus being destroyed in minutes by stomach acid. Rapid inactivation of rotaviruses by exposure to acid buffer or acidic gastric juice: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2999315/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2999315/ The annihilation of the virus and the absorption of all of the wreckage is what gives humans immunity without actually becoming infected. Generally speaking, the only viruses that make it past the stomach do so in people who already have an illness or are taking medications that raise stomach pH. Many "stomach viruses" that are transmitted orally actually infect the body at the pharynx and then make their way down to the intestines where they go wild.
- refurb 2y ago> The annihilation of the virus and the absorption of all of the wreckage is what gives humans immunity without actually becoming infected. Do you have a source for that claim? "Wreckage" would be sufficiently different from the live virus to not elicit an immune response. The live polio vaccine infects the person with an attenuated virus. The target of the polio virus is intestinal epithelial cells. There are hundreds of diseases that infect the lower digestive tract (both viral and bacterial) that clearly result from these infectious agents passing through the stomach unaltered. It may be true that many viruses are destroyed by stomach acid, but you only need a few unaltered viruses to make it through. Studies show that viruses bound to surfaces can survive stomach acid. Viruses can be bound to food or other particles which can protect them from stomach contents. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195670120300918 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019567012... "FCV survived in synthetic gastric fluid at pH values as low as 2.5 and in some cases as low as 1.5 for at least 30 min when associated with certain materials."
- SkyPuncher 2y agoOnly if you get sick from it
- perihelions 2y agoIs there a significant chance of a human crossover stemming from this cow outbreak? Are the influenza virus targets in cows similar to those of humans, that adaptations for one host would be useful for the other? Is the large population size (millions of cows) worrisome for viral evolution, with the high cumulative volume of mutations? Do governments not consider mass culling an option here, the way they routinely apply it to chicken farms? [0] Or is it too late already? [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/science/bird-flu-aid-animal-welfare.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/science/bird-flu-aid-anim... The article debates the safety of virus particles in pasteurized milk, but what are regulators currently doing about unpasteurized milk?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- drewcon 2y agoOnly if a significant amount of people are being directly infected by the cows and a mutation occurs in a person to allow spread to other humans. So seems like the chance is low, but not zero. The real worry is pigs. If it makes its way to pigs, we are in trouble. From what I understand, pigs contain a mix of avian and human receptors that make them the ideal mixing ground for crossover. Cows do not.
- noduerme 2y agoThe question is what is the probability it doesn't transfer to pigs (if it hasn't already), compounded on a daily basis and given an exponentially increasing viral load in farm environments? Scratch that. The question is how many days or weeks until it does make that leap. Then the two next questions are what's the likelihood of any given pig serving as an incubator for a recombinant virus that attaches to human lung epithelial cells, and how deadly is that virus. Run that experiment every day for six months at a few farms and you might get lucky. Run it everywhere in the country and we're S.O.L.
- NewJazz 2y agoIt has already transferred to humans from dairy cows. https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20240408/cdc-issues-broad-warning-amid-latest-human-bird-flu-case https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20240408/cdc-issues-...
- usgroup 2y agoId hazard a guess that live virus contact with people on scale is what — by chance — eventually selects a cross over strain. So virus that can be cultured into existence of out of milk presents a possible vector for that. Hence they are testing to see if they can grow the virus from milk samples.
- jMyles 2y ago> Id hazard a guess that live virus contact with people on scale is what — by chance — eventually selects a cross over strain. Seems that way! Now do anti-microbial resistant pathogens appearing at factory (fish and other) farms.
- londons_explore 2y agomixing milk dramatically increases these chances. If each person drinks milk from one cow, and there are 1 million of each, then you have 1 million chances. A chance is higher if a cow has a few mutations in its viruses, or if a person has a slightly different receptor or immune system... But if you put all the milk from the 1 million cows in a mixing vat and then distribute it to the same 1 million people, now there are 1 trillion chances, and the slightly better mutations will end up coming into contact with the humans with slightly more receptive cells. This is one of many reasons I think we should limit the fanin/fanout of food production. Ie. you may only mix animal products in say batches of up to 10,000 cows, and that batch may only be split up amongst up to 10,000 humans. Then you have to clean the production equipment before the next batch.
- drewcon 2y agoThe virus is killed by pasteurization. There is no live virus in the milk.
- lettergram 2y agoIf anything it could vaccinate folks
- noutella 2y agoSame topic and covering main questions raised here in the comments : https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2024/04/24/bird-flu-global-spread-of-the-virus-fuels-fears-of-human-contamination_6669359_114.html?lmd_medium=al&lmd_campaign=envoye-par-appli&lmd_creation=ios&lmd_source=default https://www.lemonde.fr/en/environment/article/2024/04/24/bir...
- perihelions 2y agohttps://archive.is/tCUFT https://archive.is/tCUFT
- themk 2y agoMaybe, just maybe, we should ease off on the factory farming...
- _1 2y agoand replace it with what?
- EGreg 2y ago[flagged]
- themk 2y agoPlants.
- skhunted 2y agoNon factory farming. Prices will go up and this would be a good thing in addition to treating the animals in a more moral way.
- eunos 2y agoWell that make poor folks harder to fulfill nutrition requirements. Especially for kids that'd be devastating.
- CWIZO 2y agoA plant-based diet is cheaper than a regular diet: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea...
- pbhjpbhj 2y agoLooking at Tesco online in UK: there's a soy protein 'mince' a £3.72/kg. Beef or chicken mince at £5. Quorn mycoprotein at £8.33. Beyond Meat at £13. Out of the 5 vegan and 8 vegetarian options, only the soy protein is cheaper than meat. I might replace one meal a week with the soy protein, but I'd be concerned about long term effects of phytoestrogen, especially on growing children? Mind you many foods have some hidden soy 'bulk' nowadays. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/ relates to understanding of health benefits/detriments of soy.
- anArbitraryOne 2y agoLet's keep livestock in poor conditions and give them antibiotics to survive, then complain about the consequences
- beardedwizard 2y agoAre antibiotics suddenly a factor in viral infections?
- ceejayoz 2y agoThe antibiotics permit the shitty unsanitary conditions that make viral spread also more likely.
- aaomidi 2y agoAlso they wreck the immune system in general.
- maxerickson 2y agoMost antibiotics fed to cattle are used to bias the population in their digestive system to optimize feed conversion, not for infection control. Milk is discarded if the cow is being treated for an infection, so it's not like they just do nothing else to keep them healthy.
- ceejayoz 2y agohttps://www.aphis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/feedlot99_is_treatresp.pdf https://www.aphis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/feedlot99_is_... The incidence of bronchopneumonia in feed lots is 14% of the animals. Infection is very common.
- Affric 2y agoAntibiotics are enabling unhygienic conditions. Places with poor governance in animal agriculture have a vicious cycle of poor regulation permitting unhygienic conditions which permits unhygienic infrastructure and practices which causes disease which is papered over by antibiotics which allows terrible conditions to continue.
- fastneutron 2y agoUnlike with covid, we know how to make flu vaccines on a large scale. Is there a reason why we couldn’t also preemptively vaccinate against H5N1 during regular seasonal vaccination campaigns?
- drewcon 2y agoThis is what you’re looking for. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/candidate-vaccine-virus.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/candidate-vaccine-virus.htm
- icegreentea2 2y agoI don't think there's anything in particular that stops us from routinely adding a H5N1 strain into the current flu vaccines. It's just a question of cost-benefit. And as the sibling post notes, getting an avian flu into human form right now is definitely more involved. I imagine if we started using mRNA influenza vaccines, that might change the relative cost. I suspect with the apparent extinction of the B/Yamagata line, that'd free up a slot in the quadravalent vaccine.
- pcdoodle 2y agoPasteurization would render the virus INOP?
- ceejayoz 2y agoYes. The concern is more that this is a sign of high levels of spread amongst cows that might put it at risk of crossover into other animals like pigs, or into humans, where it seems to be quite nasty.
- progrus 2y ago[flagged]
- heyoni 2y agoHopefully no viral particles capable of infecting humans will be found. We’ll know soon though.
- technics256 2y agoMilk is pasteurized
- drewcon 2y agoThey confirmed there is not live virus in the milk capable of replication. Just remnants after pasteurization.
- perihelions 2y agoTo clarify, the article says this is not confirmed, but an ongoing research question, - "The researchers expect additional lab studies currently underway to show that those samples don’t contain live virus with the capability to cause human infections"
- drewcon 2y agoThe studies have been completed. The answer is no live virus.
- drewcon 2y agohttps://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/health/bird-flu-milk.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/health/bird-flu-milk.html... There does seem to be confusion on this reporting. NY Times claiming FDA confirmed just fragments, others saying they did not.
- drewcon 2y agoOk now I’m sure. No live virus. https://www.fda.gov/food/alerts-advisories-safety-information/updates-highly-pathogenic-avian-influenza-hpai https://www.fda.gov/food/alerts-advisories-safety-informatio...
- subquantum2 2y ago[flagged]
- al_borland 2y agoYour accusation that the tests are fake would mean what, that every test always tests positive? I’ve taken at least a half dozen Covid tests and have never tested positive. That would seemingly kill your conspiracy theory.
- subquantum2 2y ago[flagged]
- al_borland 2y agoI’ve only ever taken tests when I feel sick, often with a fever.
- ImaCake 2y agoThe H5N1 tests are PCR (with an extra “reversed” step for RNA) and are, in fact, pretty reliable. The same was true for COVID. The bad covid tests were the early antibody tests which had a ridiculously high false positive rate that made them useless. But the manufacturers lied about the quality or just relied on the lack of statistical literacy to sell their product.
- subquantum2 2y agoIt showed positive because The number of cycles in the PCR test was so high that it won't make any sense anymore. It was already positive from a slight contamination.
- pc86 2y agoPlease explain the difference between "positive" and "contaminated."
- 3l3ktr4 2y agoIt's crazy to see people denying that (meat) factory farming is a problem. You'd expect most of the public of this website to be rationalists in one way or another. Of course factory farming is an aggravating factor for the spread of diseases. Of course we can thrive with less meat consumption or none. How is that even a question?
- maxerickson 2y agoYou say you expect most people on this website to be rationalist and then you also say that you expect most people on this website to be rationalist.
- 3l3ktr4 2y agoAre you saying it's not rational for me to expect rationalists around here? :P I guess that's reasonable?
- tnel77 2y agoIt’s not perfect, but HackerNews seems to have one of the most intelligent pool of users I’ve had the pleasure of interacting with. It’s not perfect, of course, but the discourse on a HackerNews thread is light years ahead of what you’ll find on Reddit.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- taylodl 2y agoWith HN it depends on the topic. With Reddit it depends on the subreddit. Both have their high points and their low points. If you take the topics for which HN is very well-behaved and looked at their equivalent subreddits on Reddit, then you'll find they're likewise well-behaved. In both cases you know exactly where the brush fires are.
- decremental 2y ago[dead]
- aitchnyu 2y agoJust when I contemplated the days of cows eating cow brains and getting prion diseases was behind us, I learned they are allowed to be fed "chicken litter" which is fancy term for shit and dead bodies. How about we limit our food animals to vegetarian feed? It may be less cholestrol-genic too.
- ethbr1 2y agoYou know what a key source of protein is in chicken feed? Crab/fish meal. Which is to say leftovers after processing, dried and ground. https://www.feedipedia.org/node/664 https://www.feedipedia.org/node/664 At the end of the day, non-pasture food animal raising boils down to getting enough nutrients and time into them to hit your target slaughter weight, subject to feed conversion ratio for the species. Cheaper nutrients = higher margins or lower product prices So there's a lot of repurposing of sanitized animal byproducts. At the end of the day, as Cyberpunk 2020 quipped, "Parts is parts. Dead is dead. Dead guys is parts." Anyone who's not comfortable with that should either go vegetarian or raise / buy into local meat.
- triceratops 2y agoChickens eat worms. Feeding them crab or fish meal is fine. Cows are herbivores. Feeding them meat is abhorrent.
- berndi 2y agoDo the cows know they are herbivores? Why would the fact that they don’t predate on other animals in the wild make it “abhorrent” to feed them animal products in captivity?
- triceratops 2y ago> Do the cows know they are herbivores? How can we really know what cows know? What we know is they follow a herbivorous diet when possible. Their teeth and digestive system are optimized for consuming plants. > Why would the fact that they don’t predate on other animals in the wild make it “abhorrent” to feed them animal products in captivity? The reason you said.
- tmaly 2y agoI was shopping for some steak today. There were two packages side by side of the same steak. One expired a day later than the other. The one with the later expiration was $4 more a pound. Is this inflation or something to do with the H5N1?