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Airlines required to refund passengers for canceled, delayed flights
- koito17 2y agoAs someone who knows somebody that recently had a flight cancelled (then booked another flight at the same airport, only for that flight to get cancelled as well), it was very frustrating to hear that all the airlines in question would do is issue a voucher that expires in 3 months and requires the exact same people to travel alongside you (i.e. if you purchased a ticket for yourself and a relative, then the voucher only applies to flights where you and this exact same relative are boarding). It seems like a pretty blatant way for airlines to keep customer's money. Too bad this rule didn't come sooner.
- jessriedel 2y agoPretty sure US airlines have had to give you refund for canceled flights for years. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/money-flight-canceled https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/money-flight-cance... > To be clear, passengers flying in the U.S. are already entitled to refunds when a flight is canceled or significantly delayed. No matter the cause — weather-related or not — airlines must pay passengers back for the unused portion of their ticket if the passenger ultimately chooses not to fly. It’s worth noting that the DOT does not define what constitutes a “significant delay.” https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/do-airlines-owe-you-money-for-delays-or-cancellations https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/do-airlines-owe-yo...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- MBCook 2y agoThey do, but they’ll never tell you that. You have to know. The only thing I saw in this article that I don’t like is that they can still issue vouchers. And I didn’t see anything that said the vouchers had to be for more than the cash payment. So I’m guessing if you miss your flight and are entitled to $300 (to pick an amount) they’ll be very happy to instantly give everyone a voucher for $100 off. Thus saving $200/head unless people know their rights. How about: you must issue cash refunds PERIOD. No voucher nonsense. Still, this is great.
- codazoda 2y agoRequiring cash is there in the article, at least now it is. > The refunds must be issued within seven days, according to the new DOT rules, and must be in cash unless the passenger chooses another form of compensation. Airlines can no longer issue refunds in forms of vouchers or credits when consumers are entitled to receive cash.
- MBCook 2y ago> unless the passenger chooses another form of compensation This is the bit. How much you wanna bet they’ll find ways to use this to screw people?
- onion2k 2y ago"We can issue you a refund for the cash value, but the system takes 3 years to pay out. You can have a voucher right now though."
- eszed 2y ago"The refunds must be issued within seven days", so (while I wouldn't put it past them to try) telling passengers something so manifestly untrue would be grounds for a lawsuit, which should make them stop.
- mrandish 2y agoSince they now have to automatically offer a cash refund, any alternative voucher offered will have to be substantially higher value to the customer to get any takers. Sure, it's possible some grandma who almost never flies anywhere may still get confused but this new rule is still going to put even that kind of person in a far better position.
- lupire 2y ago[flagged]
- wkat4242 2y agoSame in Europe. There's standard amounts.
- caseyy 2y agoSame in the EU - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Passengers_Rights_Regulation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Passengers_Rights_Regula... Although air carriers can offer passengers alternative compensation if the passenger chooses to accept it. For example, vouchers or a lower sum of money and no accommodation. Sometimes they present it as the only option to mislead the passenger. If challenged in court on refusing to pay out, air carriers sometimes claim extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided. This is an exception in the law. But it is for really force majeure events, like real disasters. Meanwhile, airlines often claim that something like the airplane breaking down or an employee calling in sick is extraordinary circumstances. This falls squarely within ordinary day-to-day operations of an airline. So it doesn’t fly in court, but it’s used more as an intimidating tactic to show to the plaintiff that their lawsuit would supposedly fail and to force awful settlement terms. Lots to be said about airlines trying to weasel out but it generally doesn’t work. Unless the passenger signs that they accept alternative compensation. I know the law doesn’t seem to allow that, but the phrasing is specific enough that it falls within the law.
- eastbound 2y agoIn Europe, I’ve always had my parking, taxi, restaurant and hotel reimbursed by the airline in case of delays (such as: bad weather or strike -> we’ll board tomorrow morning -> full reimbursement of all implied expenses). I thought this was IATA regulations. US travelers are really getting the hard stick herr.
- adrian_b 2y agoAlso in Europe (Frankfurt), when I had missed my flight because the (German) express train had been delayed by more than one hour, the airline sent me to a hotel with all expenses paid by them, including breakfast, until the next morning when I could take another of their flights towards the same destination, though via another route (obviously all being covered by my original payment).
- rft 2y agoJust a word of caution for anyone booking their own train connection, this is usually only done if you book train and flight on the same ticket. The DB calls this Rail&Fly and essentially the train becomes a leg of the flight. So if/when the DB screws up, your "flight" is delayed and treated just like a delayed plane. https://www.bahn.de/service/informationen-buchung/bahn-flug/rail-and-fly-english https://www.bahn.de/service/informationen-buchung/bahn-flug/...
- adrian_b 2y agoI suppose that it may depend on the airline how they handle such cases. I do not remember which I had used then, but it might have been Lufthansa. In my case I had bought the train tickets separately from DB (online) and the flight tickets directly from the airline (also online). At the airport I have just shown the train tickets and it would have been easy to verify that indeed it had arrived with a huge delay, so it was not my fault.
- ranger_danger 2y agoAccording to some random internet stories that may or may not be true, canceled flights due to a delay that resulted in the destination airport CLOSING before they would have landed, is one such situation that is/was not considerable as a refund.
- sunnybeetroot 2y agoYou are correct, it’s mentioned in the article: > Buttigieg reiterated that refund requirements are already the standard for airlines, but the new DOT rules hold the airlines to account and makes sure passengers get the "refunds that are owed to them."
- rco8786 2y agoYou have to know that, and you have to fight through their customer "service" desk/phone portal to get it. Most people just give up or take the first thing offered to them.
- wildzzz 2y agoWhen WOW Air closed down, they refunded European tickets but not Americans. We ended up doing a charge back with our credit card. I was a little pissed at first but ended up getting a cheaper flight to a better starting point for our trip to Europe through Air Italy (which coincidentally closed down a year later).
- al_borland 2y agoI had a flight cancelled due to COVID in 2020. I was given a voucher, which sat unused. They extended the expiration on it a couple times, due to the pandemic dragging on. Eventually, out of nowhere, after 2+ years of sitting on the voucher, I was issued a refund. I was glad to get the refund, but when talking about a multiyear timeframe, I feel like I should get my money back with interest.
- mcny 2y agoHow did you get your money back? I didn’t get a refund from delta at all…
- al_borland 2y agoIf I remember correctly, they refunded it to the card I purchased the flight on. This was through British Airways.
- lupire 2y agoIn the context of the pandemic, being a little forgiving is reasonable.
- Yeul 2y agoCOVID was such a cluster fuck that it could have bankrupted airliners. Under normal circumstances they can afford to refund their passengers. Companies need to have an incentive to provide a good service.
- rqtwteye 2y agoAlaska gave me a 12 month voucher that expired because I had no need to fly with them. I asked about extending it or a cash refund but they refused.
- greenie_beans 2y agoi'm still trying to get mine...
- alsetmusic 2y agoI missed a flight and rebooked for later on the same day. My return flight was still cancelled because how could they know I maintained the trip. There’s no way for them to be unaware that I bought a new one-way ticket. They were just predatory about it.
- zerovox 2y agoThis will be used as a pretense to raise airline fares, and won't impact cancellation rates or average delay times.
- dkjaudyeqooe 2y agoAll of those things are motivated by the corporate greed of fat, lazy oligopolies. At least now you can get your money back after your ticket being rendered useless.
- maccard 2y agoRules like these exist in Europe, and flying in Europe is incredibly cheap. For a random weekend in May, I can fly to 26 different countries for under $50 one way. Airlines here are also significantly less likely to cancel your flights, and in my experience (I've taken somewhere in the region of 200 flights in the last 10 years) there is a bit of wiggle in terms of your actual arrival time, but being more than an hour out is less likely than int eh US.
- kristopolous 2y agoSo if a company is going to be insincere and act in bad faith, we shouldn't ever try to curb bad behavior? Such a policy implies the most corrupt and criminal companies should get the least oversight possible. I might be crazy, but I think that's backwards.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bobmcnamara 2y agoThe doors of course, will continue to fall off.
- b112 2y agoThat's Boeing, not the airline's fault. Don't let Boeing get off, lay the blame at their feet.
- stavros 2y agoWait wait wait. Requires airlines to refund? Not to compensate, but to give you your money back? What did they do before?!
- iamtheworstdev 2y agoshitty voucher system
- bagels 2y agoVouchers or tell you that they are not required by law to compensate you, like United told me. (United would have owed me at least five refunds under the new rules)
- stavros 2y agoHow is it possible that you pay me to provide a service, I don't provide the service, and just keep your money? This sounds outrageous.
- metabagel 2y agoThey would book you on another flight. They wouldn't necessarily compensate you for the delayed/canceled flight.
- stavros 2y agoWhat if I don't want/can't make the other flight? If I book a hotel for the 20th, and they overbooked and can only give me a room on the 25th, they don't get to keep my money even if I don't want the 25th.
- dkjaudyeqooe 2y agoThis is shocking for not currently being the case. Compare the EU where they're not only required to refund you in full, but also compensate you up to 600 euros. Note that compensation doesn't apply to weather related events and other 'not in our control' things, but the scope is pretty narrow.
- imustbeevil 2y agoWeather accounts for 75% of all airline delays (in the US). That disclaimer is kind of surprising to gloss over. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/22/weather/why-flights-get-canceled-weather-climate/index.html#:~:text=Weather%20is%20the%20largest%20cause,it%20comes%20to%20flight%20disruptions https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/22/weather/why-flights-get-c....
- pas 2y agoIt worked for us a few years ago. Eurowings was late and the plane had to land somewhere else, they got us to the destination airport with buses. Then we got 250 EUR comp.
- dkjaudyeqooe 2y agoForcing airlines to compensate passengers for weather delays isn't going to work, and isn't equitable. You'd probably have people purposefully trying to book flights that are liable to be cancelled in order to profit. Don't know what disclaimer you're referring to but in the EU you still get a full refund for cancellations no matter what the reason.
- ranger_danger 2y agoDid you just contradict yourself? I'm confused.
- bramblerose 2y agoYou can be refunded without receiving additional compensation.
- joemazerino 2y agoStep in the right direction.
- test6554 2y agoRefund?? What someone paid for their ticket is not relevant. To be made whole someone needs to be given the current market value of their flight. If I purchased a ticket for $399 but a comparable ticket now costs $799, I can't buy a new ticket with that refund.
- dghlsakjg 2y agoA lot better than what was happening before, which is issuing airline specific expiring vouchers
- paxys 2y agoThey already offer to rebook you. Refund is for the cases where you don't want the flight at all.
- elhudy 2y agoThey only offer to rebook you on a flight in their own fleet though. E.g. i have been canceled on united due to “bad weather” halfway through a segment and was made to wait 4 days until the next united flight (there was a huge backlog). Instead, since i was stranded and absolutely needed to get to my destination, i had to buy a delta flight leaving that same night for $700 more than market value. United refused to compensate me for this. It’s bullshit. Edit: oh by the way, i didn’t get refunded for the segment that flew me across the nation just to stand me in denver. The refund was prorated And only counted for the second segment. Anyone who doesn’t think airlines need more regulations on cancellations and refunds clearly hasn’t flown regularly.
- schrodinger 2y agoIf you complain hard enough and get lucky you can get rebooked on a different airline, but it's certainly consistent or mandated. I think I've only had it once as someone who flies quite a bit.
- alkonaut 2y agoIf you choose a refund that would be because you opted not to take the flight at all. Assuming it was your outbound flight, that can be reasonable. If it's a return or connecting flight you might have to re-route, in which case a refund might not cover your alternative. This sort of thing really needs a lot of interpretive guidelines. E.g. the EC 261 guidelines are excellent in clarifying this. re-routing should be offered at no additional cost to the passenger, even where passengers are re-routed with another air carrier or on a different transport mode or in a higher class or at a higher fare(...) https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52016XC0615(01) https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52... In practice I believe this is usually applied like "If there is availability on the same day on the original airline then book that, else the first available flight on a different airline". Of course in the first case the airline is also on the line for the hotel costs etc. I don't think the US regulation has the same sort of teeth (yet) but it should at least be made clear. For flights, booking an alternative flight is invariably going to be a lot more expensive than the original one. And regulation that only reimburses the original fare, allows rerouting on the same airline, or doesn't offer cash compensation in addition to sorting out the journey, is pretty bad even if it's a step in the right direction.
- metabagel 2y agoThey should set a minimum seat pitch of 32" for shorthaul flights and 34" for medium and longhaul flights.
- switch007 2y agoEconomy has to be uncomfortable to upsell to premium economy and business. Huge demand for those cabins and massive money makers. There will never be a minimum seat pitch regulation unless directly and obviously related to safety
- dfadsadsf 2y agoJust pay up for comfort+ seats if you are in US - they are generally pretty affordable. Much bigger problem is that in EU you get 28” pitch on BUSINESS class seats! The only difference is that middle seat is blocked. This frankly should be illegal.
- ProfessorLayton 2y agoI suppose it should be noted that refundable tickets have been a thing in the US, however, they were/are a lot more expensive than 'regular' tickets. Still, this is a step in the right direction.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- readyman 2y ago>The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be "entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered." "Alternative transportation or travel credits" it will be, they will be useless. Nothing has fundamentally changed.
- whyenot 2y agoIf they are "useless," then people won't "accept" them, and per what you quoted they are entitled to a refund.
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- jpalawaga 2y agohuh? all this is saying is that if you accept a rebooked flight, you don't also get a refund. or if they offer you 10k miles or travel credit, and you accept, you don't also get a refund. the point is, a refund to original form of payment is the default. please stop posting your misinformed reading of the text through the thread.
- LukeShu 2y agoI think you're reading that backward. I'm reading it as: - (think the alt-transport or credits are good) -> accept -> don't get refunded - (think the alt-transport or credits are worthless) -> do not accept -> get refunded
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- alkonaut 2y agoYou already posted this complete misreading of the text you quoted in a different reply. At least read it once if you are going to quote it twice.
- atum47 2y agoUnited cancelled a very important flight after delaying it several times during the day. They did not provide me any accomodations or new flights, the lady who was talking to us regarding the situation just left saying "access the app to book a new flight" - I kind of understand her position, it was not her fault but she would be the one getting screamed at by rude passengers. Long story short, I paid for my own accomodation, my own dinner and on the other day I was able to go back to the airport and find someone who helped me get another flight. When I got back to Brazil I took united to the small claims court and got my money back plus some.
- gooseyman 2y agoSmall claims court is the future of airline customer service. My dad recently filed in small claims for lost luggage after the realization there was no phone number for a human to speak with as everything is “live” chat where each chat takes ten minutes for a response. The check came in the mail days after notification of filing. Granted it was a budget airline, but it’s not that different from waiting on hold to get transferred.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoI had no idea small claims court could be so productive. Did you write your own petition or did you use a service to help compile it? Do you have to handle giving the receiving party their documents or does the court do that?
- ipnon 2y agoSmall claims court is slow and laborious for all parties. Airlines have realized it’s better for their bottom line to just settle immediately out of court once they receive a small claims summons.
- Der_Einzige 2y agoEventually they'll learn how to counter sue and use the full power of their legal team to make an example out of what they regard as "peons with delusions of grandeur". You laugh, but similar stuff has happened in the context of IP/Patent law. de facto retaliation is real in the legal system
- cute_boi 2y agoGood news.
- bluedemon 2y agoNice. I like the refund more than the vouchers. Good job Biden team: https://apnews.com/article/airlines-junk-fees-baggage-delays-c4a93f9ee9a2bf7d9ee07394183a0374 https://apnews.com/article/airlines-junk-fees-baggage-delays...
- srid 2y agoNeither the title nor the post body makes it clear. Is this limited to USA? What about airlines in other countries? Like Air Canada from Canada, and Lufthansa from Germany?
- poizan42 2y ago> ..., and Lufthansa from Germany EU has much more strict rules. The airline must not only refund you, but compensate you too if the flight was cancelled less than 14 days before departure and the cancellation wasn't due to extraordinary circumstances. I.e. heavy rain and storm or a volcano eruption the airline could not have done anything to complete the flight in spite of. Stuff like technical problems or a strike [1] is generally 100% on the airline. See https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right... for the details. [1] Strikes internal to the airline, i.e. by airline staff. Strikes external to the airline may in some cases count as extraordinary circumstances.
- sccxy 2y agoI had to fight with Lufthansa for a year to get reimbursed for hotels & new tickets. They closed all service desks after flight cancellation (no strike, just their crew planning issues) and sign told us to find own flights and hotels. Few months later I went to this service desk again in Frankfurt, their response was "Go get a lawyer, we wont help with old cases" Thankfully soep-online.de helped to get all money reimbursed but it took 13 months.
- poizan42 2y agoThe big problem with the EU regulations is the lack of consequences when airlines don't follow them. They can just refuse or drag their feet and the worst thing that can happen is a court ordering them to follow the rules they should have followed in the first place. Some rules about treble compensation (or a big compensation if one wasn't due in the first place) if they haven't refunded/paid compensation within, say, 60 days from first contacted would probably help a lot with cutting through the bullshit.
- rgovostes 2y agoTangential gripe: I recently flew to SFO for a weekend. In both directions I was significantly delayed due to construction on one of the runways limiting the number of planes that could land per hour. It doesn’t seem like it ought to have been legal to sell me a ticket claiming departure and arrival times that were extremely unrealistic. United knew the construction was happening, I did not. I was given the option to refund my ticket but it would have canceled the return flight as well, and last minute flights to SJC instead were prohibitively expensive. The EU’s policy of forcing airlines to compensate travelers for delays seems like it better incentivizes the airlines to improve service.
- fuzzybear3965 2y agoWait. Am I missing something? Isn't that ~90m of car time assuming mild traffic?
- Macha 2y agoI don't think they were flying SFO to SJC, rather they considered rebooking to SJC to avoid the delays at SFO
- hughesjj 2y agoSJC is so much better. Honestly it's almost worth going to SJC and taking Caltrain despite the extra time and cost just due to how much nicer it is
- cbhl 2y agoWhen SFO is operating on only one of its two runways (common due to low clouds, now due to runway construction) then 3h+ delays are par for the course for flights in the evening.
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- toast0 2y agoHow long in advance was the construction scheduled?
- mullingitover 2y agoSide note: Wow, ABC News is still on go.com. I worked at Disney from 2006-2015 and most people were baffled about what the heck go.com even was, and why things like ESPN, ABC, and a bunch of other big Disney properties were subdomains of it. It has a history going back to 22 years ago[1] when Disney tried running a portal with a search engine and email hosting. ESPN got off it in 2016, but I'm honestly shocked that ABC news isn't able to. Apparently it boils down to SEO? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go.com
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nunez 2y agoI used go.com all of the time as a kid in the 90s, mostly to test that Internet was up, but they had some games there that were cool
- __lbracket__ 2y ago[flagged]
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- sokoloff 2y agoJetBlue accepted the reservation for my 14 year old (the minimum age for JetBlue to take a minor as an adult). They were code sharing that flight with American, who requires a minor to be 15. So, JetBlue took the money for a service they knew they could not provide (but I didn’t, having read the various airline rules and settled on JetBlue as a result). When it came time to fly, American wouldn’t carry them (now 700 miles away from the family) and JetBlue wanted to keep the money, offering a JB credit expiring in 1 year. All I did was get a JetBlue customer care agent to confirm they would not issue a refund and took that screenshot to my credit card company who approved the chargeback. We ended up having to pay the unaccompanied minor fees and aggravation on both ends to get them home on Delta, who is at least in the linked business of selling tickets and actually transporting passengers on those tickets, while JetBlue is better at the former than the latter.
- mrandish 2y agoYes, as the parent of a 14 year-old currently attending boarding school in Europe, the way that many airlines have in recent years increased their minimum age rules to fly unaccompanied creates huge problems and costs. We've had to become experts in code share logistics because, for example, Swiss Air will happily accept 13 and above but they code share flights with Lufthansa who requires 15. Whether your kid can board the flight depends on which airline's code is used for the flight number, and it's not always clear on the airline's own websites (much less other sites), despite being the same seat on the same plane. The real mess happens when a flight is cancelled and the airline rebooks passengers already in-route. Last year our kid was on an Iceland Air route in a connecting city when they cancelled the next leg. Someone at their flight operations center "helpfully" rebooked the ticket to a British Air flight leaving that city an hour later, except BA has a 14 limit and denied boarding (kid was a few weeks shy of 14 at the time). In fact, the BA gate agents couldn't even understand how it was possible for a 13 year-old to be issued a ticket (because it was done in the back-end inter-airline system). So our kid ends up stranded in a distant connecting city. We ultimately had to buy a last-minute one-way ticket on a third airline to a different city for a connection on an airline that would board her. It took months of calls to eventually get a refund from Iceland Air for a multi-thousand dollar business class ticket, on a flight they cancelled. (note: For anyone concerned, our kid is a hyper-savvy frequent flyer who grew up flying international routes. Also, for international routes we always book her business class in an isolated seat that's in its own row right next to the crew galley.) We have a friend who's kid goes to a boarding school in the U.S. (but on the opposite coast). All the major U.S airlines now have 15 or 16 age limits. For spring break a few weeks ago, they had no choice but for one parent to fly across the country and back, both ways, just to "accompany" their kid past the gate boarding agents. Because almost all U.S airlines are now unaccompanied kid hostile, our kid can't even connect internationally from our local airport. Instead we have to drive her three hours to an airport that international airlines fly direct from.
- kapildev 2y ago>Buttigieg said the DOT is also protecting airline passengers from being surprised by hidden fees -- a move he estimates will have Americans billions of dollars every year. I think I am seeing more mis-spellings in news nowadays.
- ultimoo 2y agoWouldn’t the airlines simply hike up fares to price this in? Is there regulation that caps how much flights cost?
- failbuffer 2y agoWhat you have right now is a situation where airlines compete stiffly on sticker prices and then find ways to screw you on the backend. You save money if you're lucky, but it's because you're getting a hidden subsidy from people whose flights were cancelled.
- sdeframond 2y agoFor reference, here is what Europe has been doing for a few years: mandatory refund plus distance-based compensation. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#compensation-cancellation-1 https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoOfficial Transportation release: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40146124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40146124
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y agoThey'll just do what they already do: change gates 12 times in 5 hours making customers move pointlessly because they don't have a plane or crew.
- paxys 2y agoI wish we could have election year Biden every year.
- cush 2y agoWait, they weren't required to refund before...?
- onthecanposting 2y agoWould it be fair to say that civilian aviation is in a doom loop at this point? Margins get tight, quality falls, government increases cost of compliance, margins get tighter, quality falls, government saves the consumer again...?
- WhatIsAModel 2y agoPeter Thiel discusses this same doom loop and some of your points in this lecture that I highly recommend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fx5Q8xGU8k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fx5Q8xGU8k
- onthecanposting 2y agoI wish I had listened to this a long time ago. That starting so niche nobody bothers you is a winning strategy would not have occurred to me. Thanks for sharing!
- nunez 2y agoMy takes: 1. This is going to shutter a few more regional airlines, as they will deem it unprofitable to issue refunds over flying emptier planes. 2. This will encourage rolling delays even more.
- dclowd9901 2y agoNot sure I follow your reasoning on 2
- alkonaut 2y ago2: In the past you might sacrifice 1 flight completely (24h delay) to get 9 flights on time. Now you'd rather make all 10 flights have shorter delays and all stay below some refund threshold.
- Krasnol 2y agoIf your margins are so low that you depend on this, you should quit. Also, good for the environment.
- ken47 2y agoThis seems too good to be true?
- felipellrocha 2y ago...were they not required to do that before...?
- davisonio 2y agoUSA didn't have this rule beforehand? confused in EU
- Ekaros 2y agoAlways remember that USA simply does not care about consumers. It is all about shareholder and stock market values. From slavery to any type of safety.
- pb7 2y agoAnd yet I get better customer service from US companies than European companies. Funny how that works.
- sofixa 2y agoThat's as vague as it is useless. I get better customer service from Air France (French), Devialet (French) and Free Telecom (French) than I get from United (American), Google (American) and Facebook (American). What does this tell us? Absolutely nothing.
- pb7 2y agoIt's funny you bring up Air France because that's one of the ones I had in mind that is beyond redemption. Truly awful customer service both on the plane and off.[1] Same with Iberia.[2] Allergic to treating customers like human beings. I fly United for the vast majority of my flights and have had nothing but great experiences even when things go wrong. In fact, gun to my head, I couldn't come up with a similar story with a US airline despite flying US airlines 20:1 compared with European ones. [1] I flew business class on Air France and the "lie flat" seat would only go down to a 30 degree angle and they acted like I was inconveniencing them by asking for help and then told me that's how it's supposed to be despite everyone else's seat being clearly flat. Never got solved. Contacted support after and never heard back. Typical experience with European companies. Don't want to work, don't want to admit fault, no resolution unless forced by regulation. [2] Took 2 months to get a refund of a cancelled flight. Customer service was completely incompetent and powerless, telling me that "it's coming in 48 hours". Had to call like 6 times over the span of months. Don't get me started on how Festicket refused to give me my money back after an event got canceled, forcing me to charge back with credit card (thank you, American banks), or how there's a 50% chance European car rental places will try to scam with fake damage or extra fees. I had to teach an AVIS manager in Palma that prepaying for gas (unwillingly, mind you) means that I don't pay for an empty tank at the end of the trip.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y agoWhat about connections? Will they also refund the missed flight + hotel stay? My $100 flight was once delayed and I missed the $700 connecting flight. Airline gave me next day $700 ticket and put me in a hotel. Shall I just receive $100 under that new rule?
- darkwizard42 2y agoWell, assuming you booked this as one ticket (the two were with the same airline) then usually they will refund everything. I assume that isn't changing However, if you have two airlines and one failed to get you to the airport for the second flight, the second airline doesn't owe you any compensation, but the first will.
- throwaway290232 2y ago[dead]
- thedevguy210 2y agoTwo years ago ( after covid ) when the airline booked me on a another flight from London to Barcelona, the rebooked flight got cancelled… they lost my luggage for over a month ( because it was as loaded on the first flight ) the only thing I received was an apology… + 600 euros mandatory refund
- bigbacaloa 2y ago[dead]
- jlubawy 2y agoI think we all know that airlines overbook, or cancel flights if not enough people are on a flight to make it economically viable. At a minimum they should be required to provide the odds of a flight to be delayed or canceled before the day-of to allow customers to reschedule ahead of time to get to their destination on time. Refund of money doesn't matter when you have a place to be at a certain time, especially if you plan months in advance, only to find out 3 hours ahead of time (and at 3:30am in the morning) that your planned flight for months is suddenly canceled for "non-operation". Literally on a cross-country vacation right now where this is the second time that a flight has been delayed/canceled on me in the past two years (American Airlines). I want to be a loyal customer, but this feels very one sided, and any monetary recourse certainly isn't enough when you hsve a place to be at a certain time (and aren't informed that it's possible you won't make it there, or else worst case you can drive)
- ornornor 2y agoThere are very few consumer experiences as miserable as air travel these days. It’s just a joke. Plane not full enough to make a big enough profit? Cancel the flight. Reroute the flight. Delay the luggage. Force passenger to check hand luggage in. Charge for every single possible thing. I abhor flying. It makes me hate myself. Turkish Airlines delayed us 2 days which we had to spend in the shittiest hotel they could find for the first night and then in the airport itself for the second night (not even giving us lounge access). They’re arguing the delay was only 7 minutes (seriously) and won’t do anything at all. It’s been 9 months of battle involving lawyers and they still won’t pay anything. This is a step in the right direction but airlines still have a long way to go. It feels like they used the pandemic to “push the envelope” and see how much more abuse customers will take, and set this as their new standard service level. AFAIK they also never rehired all the people they laid off which partly explains the sharp drop in quality. Or maybe this is exactly what the world needs given how polluting and damaging flying is, I just didn’t expect it would be the airlines themselves doing all they can to discourage people from flying. Luckily, in Europe, you can still visit a lot of beautiful places by train without the aggravation of flying. And when accounting for door to door times, flying isn’t that much faster anyway.
- switch007 2y ago> It feels like they used the pandemic to “push the envelope” and see how much more abuse customers will take, and set this as their new standard service level. 100 percent this. Like prior recessions, but even worse. With each recession we bounce back economically on the surface but the cuts they make rarely get reversed.
- valval 2y agoI've flown some 20 commercial flights in the last year and never faced any of the issues you've described. I find flying quite fun to this day. Perhaps this is highly regional.
- maccard 2y agoSome carriers are definitely worse than others. I’ve flown about the same as you but over 10 years, and I’ve had OP’s experience once. We were stuck on the runway for 6 hours, given food vouchers that nowhere in the airport would accept, and then 10 hours after we were supposed to take off they told us our flight was cancelled and they’d organise accommodation. Except there was a huge concert on in the the city that day, so there was nowhere nearby. They left us in the airport with a “sorry” and no food. Thankfully, I lived in said city so we went home and came back the following day. One email to the airline gave us £800 in compensation, plus the cost of our food and Ubers back and forth. Our travel insurance paid out for most of the things we missed out on like the hotel night, events we had planned, prebooked meal, and even our airport parking (which we did technically use). We were done and dusted with it within 7 days.
- smusamashah 2y agoI am living in UK atm where some regulation allows claiming certain amount based on distance and delayed hours. I was entitled to more than flights cost for a delayed Turkish Airlines flight. I used an online service (airhelp) to claim it. They initially took 35% as their fee. After around 4-5 months the airline rejected the claim and lawyers from airhelp stepped in which made their fee 50%. It took 7-8 more months, total 1 year, to get 50% of my claim back (~800£) using a third party service. Given how complicated it is to fille a claim, even if I did it myself I would have given up on first rejection. I hope this law expands beyond US.
- aiiotnoodle 2y agoDid airhelp talk to aviation ADR do you know? We've Just essentially lost based on what we provided but still think we're owed compensation really. Just absolutely exhausted doing all the admin. Originally went with resolver but they did nothing. I think aviation ADR is our last course of action unless we actually sued them, do you know if you did that?
- smusamashah 2y agoI dont know whats ADR. All I did was put all relevant details/docs on airhelp. They sent another email when lawyer stepped in and I got email from lawyer too but that's about it.
- Nextgrid 2y ago> I hope this law expands beyond US Pretty sure there is already a law. It's an EU law but I believe it was backported to the UK after Brexit. The problem is that unless there is good enforcement and proactive auditing of compliance it is no good. In this case there is near-zero enforcement so a law merely being on the books doesn't help.
- gnegggh 2y agoIf you depart from anywhere in the EU you always have this.
- snowpid 2y agoflight regulation or its cases against canceled fligths is so common in Europe it is the example of automatic law or law tech. https://www.flightright.de/# https://www.flightright.de/#
- Halan 2y agoAnyone from EU/UK will laugh at this news
- aembleton 2y agoWhy? I'm from the UK and I think this is a good thing. The more that it is normalised that you should get refunds for delays the better. AirTransat cancelled my flight leaving the UK a few years ago and refused to refund it. I pointed out the regulations and they just said they won't refund so I had to do a chargeback. That worked; but it would be good to see airlines build refunds in to their processes.
- Halan 2y agoOf course it is a good thing but nevertheless funny because it is something we take for granted. We are also used to get a compensation on top of the refund. Btw escalate it to CAA and they will handle this. Not only you will get a refund but the compensation as well
- jorisboris 2y agoEurope has had this for years and imo it keeps the airlines pretty good in check As often with eu regulations there are a couple of loopholes so you have to watch out nevertheless (eg force majeur like bird strikes doesn’t count, or when the flight is delayed to next day they have to pay your food and hotel but I decided to book another flight and then they don’t have to pay anything back except the fixed fee which I didn’t know…)
- qngcdvy 2y agoFun Fact: Air traffic controller strikes also count as force majeur Actually, once my flight (to Europe) was delayed by like 4h because they had an air traffic controller strike in another country THE NEXT DAY and kind of shuffled their plane fleet across the continent to make it work. Airline denied me my (i think it was 600 Euros) compensation using the force majeur strike argument. That was the only time I went to one of those services that went to court for me for like 30% of my claim. They really did go almost all the way until the airline took the very last exit before a trial. Sometimes I like consumer rights.
- aqme28 2y agoI believe security staff strikes also qualify. I got burned by that one via KLM
- user_7832 2y agoSo what happens to the concept of "getting what you paid for"? Does KLM just shrug and say sorry? I could imagine if they said "we can't pay for accommodation but we'll send you on the next flight", but did they even do that?
- aqme28 2y agoI wasn't anywhere that needed accomodation so I cant speak to that. They canceled the flight and booked for the next day, which meant that I had to miss half the conference and the reason that I was making the trip in the first place.
- camillomiller 2y agoLOL, we have this in Europe for ages. Where are the EU-haters today? Just yesterday I got confirmation of an EasyJet refund for a flight that arrived 4 hours late due to an engine problem during the previous flight. 250€ in my bank account within 7 days from the flight. The flight had costed me 130€. I flew for a profit. EU works.
- pb7 2y agoThat flight was 1/8 of your paycheck.
- sofixa 2y agoEven if that were true, comparing raw pay numbers without accounting for cost of living is a fool's errand.
- camillomiller 2y agoDo you have access to my income report? Let's talk after you get foreclosed because of an ingrown toenail operation.
- pb7 2y agoWe're never going to talk because I have access to excellent healthcare. I would bet a pretty penny it's far better than whatever waiting list you have access to. You can convince naive Americans that don't know better but I've experienced British, Hungarian, and Italian healthcare and it's a joke.
- figassis 2y agoAh, the family seating fee. I once paid close to $3k to reserve ajacent seats for my family on a 3 leg round trip. Prices varied from $80 to $200 per seat, in addition to the ticket. Was traveling with kids, wanted to make sure we were all together. Then I started testing, and guess what? you end up together regardless. So fear based sales.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- JR1427 2y agoI guess that in the UK this has been the case for a while? We just got 1600GBP back from British Airways for a flight delayed by 24hrs.
- etiennebausson 2y agoProbably the EU regulations haven't been removed (yet?).
- dusted 2y agoWell, that seems obvious ? Of course they are? If you've booked a flight at a certain date, it's obviously because you need transportation at that date. If you cannot be transported at the right time, the transportation is in many cases no longer needed. For instance, if I miss a conference, my need for the transportation goes to zero, and so, I should be reimbursed _AT_LEAST_ for the transportation, but I'd argue, also for the conference if that payment has already been made.
- kome 2y agoSometimes I am so surprised that such a mundane regulation, a basic facility really, is seen as revolutionary in the US and implemented extremely late. I am so happy and lucky to have been born in this corner of the world
- ZeljkoS 2y agoLegal protection is nice, but it can be circumvented, like the Lufthansa fiasco showed: https://svedic.org/travel/screwed-by-lufthansa-german-government-saved-by-paypal https://svedic.org/travel/screwed-by-lufthansa-german-govern... Since then, I always try to book plane tickets with PayPal. It is a bit ironic that as an EU citizen, I was screwed by EU company (Lufthansa), EU politicians (German government), but saved by a private US company (PayPal) :D
- account42 2y agoSelling vouchers where you know some of them will go unused should be straight up illegal. It's fraud imo - taking money without actually providing a service. At the very least they should be automatically refunded after a reasonable time period.
- jcutrell 2y agoWouldn't this likely just result in increased airfare across the board?
- styfle 2y ago> The rules come after the agency handed Southwest Airlines a record $140 million fine for its operational meltdown during the 2022 holiday travel season. I was one of the travelers impacted by that meltdown. I waited hours and hours in the airport because of “delays”. One by one, every flight was cancelled. Southwest made everyone wait in a single file line to rebook their flight a week or two out (of course after Christmas). A couple days later they cancelled that flight too. So they issued vouchers. No way I would use a voucher for an airline that can’t get it together. I’m glad there will be cash refunds now so folks don’t get trapped with a bad airline.
- edpichler 2y agoWe need more competition in this industry.
- sebzim4500 2y agoI don't see how that would help, given the margins are already so low. An airline which has decent customer service and who pays out for refunds would have higher ticket prices and noone would use them.
- imgabe 2y agoIs there something just intrinsically unprofitable about air travel? Why do airlines continue to get shittier and shittier and strive for the bottom of the barrel? It’s clearly a high demand service. Couldn’t they just provide a good service and make money?
- brikym 2y agohttps://www.axios.com/2023/12/08/airline-mergers-us-airline-industry https://www.axios.com/2023/12/08/airline-mergers-us-airline-... It's probably due to the power balance. Corporate consolidation is at an all time high so what choice do you have when they all have the same shitty policies.
- Frost1x 2y agoAs much as I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, I find it abused by corporate America and no longer do so. Any variation of Hanlon’s razor is assumed and abused strategically anymore. Perhaps there could be fundamental issues that explain away airline issues we see but I just assume it’s an industry that has successfully eroded consumer expectations and rights more than many. It’s not like it’s unique to the airline industry as a trend, it seems to be happening in every industry I interact with. You’re getting less for more and the experience is getting worse overall. Aside from some gains technology wise, people are clawing everywhere and consumers foot the bill with little option outside of simply not participating and using certain products or services. If it we’re so fundamentally shitty, we should overall reduce air travel and expectations around it that exist in business and culture, not continually prop it up by making the entire experience dreadful.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- balderdash 2y agoPeople need to be paid multiples of their ticket value on a sliding scale based on length of delay and whether it was overnight. There should still be compensation even if you ultimately fly on that airline.
- micromacrofoot 2y agoIt's absurd that we're so hesitant to weaponize regulation against abusive business practices (because money). This should have been fixed decades ago, as it has been in some other countries.
- DamnYuppie 2y agoI used to travel weekly for years and if there was a glitch in the system, weather delays, plane maintenance, crew availability, etc it could be very exasperating to get things sorted out. However for the first time in a few years I had to take a trip this past week on United. Our flight was boarded, the pilots found an issue and called maintenance. It was determined that the flight had to be cancelled, so all passengers had to deplane. The crew kept telling us all of us would be rebooked and would get notification via text or on the United app with next steps, we could also talk to a gate agent. It did take about 30 minutes but they did in fact give me a notification of options for other flights, I took all of one button press to select my new itinerary. Also I had paid for upgraded seats, specifically emergency aisles. As they were not available on all of my new flights they issued me a reimbursement for those costs. For those who had to stay over they paid for hotel and food. It is never fun to have a flight cancelled on you but in my experience this was definitely one of the better "customer service" experiences I have had. Really can't complain about how they handled it which gives me hope that technology will allow them to offer better and more timely customer service going forward.
- _xerces_ 2y agoOne issue I have had is where they cancel the domestic final leg of a non-direct international flight. The total ticket cost was $2000, but they valued my cancelled final connection at only $40, yet if I tried to purchase just that flight alone between those two US cities, it would have been more like $400.
- greenie_beans 2y ago4 years later and i'm still trying to get money back from tap portugal from a cancelled covid trip. fuck that company so much. also, i bought the ticket from priceline, who "expunged" there database for customers from 2 years ago and older...which sounds quite convenient and sketchy.
- Slava_Propanei 2y ago[dead]