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Having the US's primary rival, which runs massive disinformation campaigns, also opaquely control the content that US youth consume en masse seems worse than...

Having the US's primary rival, which runs massive disinformation campaigns, also opaquely control the content that US youth consume en masse seems worse than...just about any alternative. Someone like Facebook wants the algorithm to show addictive content that generally isn't super offensive to the average person. Someone like the CCP wants the algorithm to show addictive content that idealizes "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and increases division in Western countries.

Capricorn2481 2y ago
> increases division in Western countries I'm not convinced anything on TikTok is more divisive than any other social media platform. And Reddit seems to be filled with a lot more tankies than other platforms.
sangnoir 2y ago
> Having the US's primary rival, which runs massive disinformation campaigns, also opaquely control the content that US youth consume en masse seems worse than...just about any alternative How is it worse than making disseminating disinformation illegal? The law as written lays bare the true motivation - it's not about fighting disinformation ("inauthentic user activity" has been detected across all social networks for the purposes of disinformation). It almost certainly is about protecting American companies from competitors with better AI algorithms. The legislature has telegraphed that the tech/potential for abuse are not problems by themselves - ownership by a Chinese company is what they take issue with.
- ladzoppelin 2y ago
  But why is that a bad thing, China has the same regulations on companies not Chinese? Its not "better" algorithms its "weaponized" algorithms designed for specific populations including its own population which I imagine are not as damaging then the ones applied to others. My point is, of course this will be banned if the US gov cannot benefit from it and considered a threat to certain people.
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    > But why is that a bad thing I didn't say it was a bad thing - I said there's a better option that wasn't taken. IMO, protecting citizens from bad behavior by domestic and foreign companies is nobler than corporate protectionism. YMMV .
mywittyname 2y ago
> increases division in Western countries. I don't see how people can say this with a straight face knowing that American adversaries operate almost in the open on Facebook. You don't need to control the platform to control the message. That's what social media companies sell!
- alcoholic_byte 2y ago
  But you need to control the platform to siphon user data , have a foothold into everyone's phone and to peddle misinformation and entertainment instead of education (Chinese version operates differently than the non-Chinese one). There is no greater vehicle to deliver a hooking mechanism to target specific users for spyware upload than an app that is installed on a lot of platforms. Weechat is one other such tool btw. and that thing behaves strangely compared to e.g. Whatsapp if you install it.
- throwawayq3423 2y ago
  If it has to come down to companies increasing division in Western countries for profit over ideology, then fine. One is a negative externality that can be mitigated, the other is the entire point (therefore cannot be made better).
- trimethylpurine 2y ago
  That was restricted in previous actions by Facebook, according to Zuckerberg's testimony. So today, you do need to control the platform.
  - Capricorn2481 2y ago
    > according to Zuckerberg's testimony Not according to his employees
    - trimethylpurine 2y ago
      That might be true, but after testimony in front of Congress? They would have to be bribing the IRS. No way. I don't like or use Facebook and I hope it dies a horrible death. But I'm also a realist.
Ygg2 2y ago
> increases division in Western countries. To be fair having first past the post voting does wonders for division. No external enemy necessary.
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  While this AFAIK only applies to the US, it should be the #1 issue to solve. By a wide margin. It's honestly baffling that not everyone with half a brain is up in arms about it.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Most people just don't understand basic math.
    - ajmurmann 2y ago
      Weirdly they understand it well enough to be angry at third candidates spoiling the election, but aren't able to make that last, tiny connection.
atlas_hugged 2y ago
It doesn’t sound like you’ve ever used TikTok. I assumed the same thing going in and found quite the opposite. I’m way better informed since I started using it. In some cases by people that were actually involved in whatever event was newsworthy.
- adezxc 2y ago
  Don't take my question as aggresive, but why do you think you're "way better informed" since you started using it? Better informed on what?
  - harryp_peng 2y ago
    Have you even used TikTok? Facebook connects you with the people around you, and TikTok connects you with your favorite people on earth. That's the essence of the product.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    What the algorithm decided to inform them on.
- Retric 2y ago
  Selectively reducing or excluding some events as not newsworthy while promoting others is observable when using ticktock and the underlying means of propaganda people are concerned about. For a US example you can simply count the minutes of coverage Fox News and CNN give to various stories for the same basic effect. How much coverage you gives the Russia- Ukraine war can be just as impactful as if you refer to it as a Russian invasion or not.
- jimbokun 2y ago
  How would you know?
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  At least you think you are way better informed. I don't use TikTok, but I use Facebook and Google's short video versions. I find just as many anti-CCP as pro-CCP content on it, and...I guess these are mostly TikTok videos because many of them still have TikTok watermarks.
henrikschroder 2y ago
> idealizes "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and increases division in Western countries. You're right, everyone I know now buys their glycine from Donghua Jinlong instead of using domestic manufacturers. This is clearly not because of the superior manufacturing capabilities of Donghua Jinlong, who are ISO9001 and ISO14001 certified, and whose glycine is industrial AND food grade, but because of an insidious campaign by the CCP to promote Chinese glycine across the entire industry, trying to crush American glycine manufacturing. I demand congressional hearings about what our elected politicians are doing about this threat to American-made glycine!
- atlintots 2y ago
  Seeing another DHJL glycine enthusiast here on HN was not on my bingo, but it is a pleasant surprise. Readers might also be happy to know DHJL glycine is Halal, Kosher, and Reach certified, and more recently, FDA approved as well!
  - henrikschroder 2y ago
    On a serious note, it's so amusing to me to read the comments of people who hate TikTok, but who clearly haven't used it. They simply have no idea what it looks like and the kind of content that is popular on it. But they're very certain that it's bad! Meanwhile, I'm scratching my head trying to understand how my watch history could have any value whatsoever. Cute kittens, shirtless guys chopping wood, sad hamster memes, Sanchez the sleepy racoon, Young Royals edits, some dude eating all kinds of cheese, A bunch of confused Americans in Europe and vice versa, PEDRO PEDRO PEDRO, guys promoting their onlyfans, schwapeepee, and of course Donghua Jinlong content, although it seems to have run its course now.
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> “socialism with Chinese characteristics" and increases division in Western countries Do you have a single example of a successful Chinese media campaign, disinformation or information - just one? Because I can name, off the top of my head, disinformation campaigns by Trump (election was stole) , by Israel (bunker under a hospital), by Isis (mass recruitment in western countries), by oil companies (heat pumps don’t work in Britain’s unique climate), by food companies, by Russia, by Greenpeace, by crazy people on 4chan but I cannot name a single message that came out of China and got major public resonance in the west.
- robgibbons 2y ago
  CCP is a major pusher of disinformation/propaganda. Look up Dragonbridge. Or how YouTube had to remove thousands of CCP propaganda channels. Or the classic "US Army Covid Origin" story that China pushed when social media came for Wuhan. China's 50-cent army buys social media accounts, or creates fake personas, to push narratives and abuses reporting/takedown mechanisms to suppress unfavorable posts and channels.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    This is major pusher of propaganda? > Most DRAGONBRIDGE activity is low quality content without a political message, populated across many channels and blogs If anything, this is a demonstration that their efforts are futile and incompetent, very much non-threat. I’ve seen even 4chan do better We have multiple actors that push divisive misinformation through bots, much more successfully, and we do not apply any scrutiny to that.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
>Having the US's primary rival, which runs massive disinformation campaigns, also opaquely control the content that US youth consume en masse seems worse than...just about any alternative. Sounds like a skill issue. The Us has decades worth of a head start on the internet and social media. If "the enemy" can just waltz in and disrupt that in a matter of 5 years, I think we have bigger issues on hand. > Someone like the CCP wants the algorithm to show addictive content that idealizes "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and increases division in Western countries. Yeah, America has a decade long headstart on that too. We blamed facebook in 2016, we're blaming Tiktok in 2024. How long are we going to deflect this to the internet?

Capricorn2481 2y ago

> increases division in Western countries I'm not convinced anything on TikTok is more divisive than any other social media platform. And Reddit seems to be filled with a lot more tankies than other platforms.

sangnoir 2y ago

> Having the US's primary rival, which runs massive disinformation campaigns, also opaquely control the content that US youth consume en masse seems worse than...just about any alternative How is it worse than making disseminating disinformation illegal? The law as written lays bare the true motivation - it's not about fighting disinformation ("inauthentic user activity" has been detected across all social networks for the purposes of disinformation). It almost certainly is about protecting American companies from competitors with better AI algorithms. The legislature has telegraphed that the tech/potential for abuse are not problems by themselves - ownership by a Chinese company is what they take issue with.

ladzoppelin 2y ago
But why is that a bad thing, China has the same regulations on companies not Chinese? Its not "better" algorithms its "weaponized" algorithms designed for specific populations including its own population which I imagine are not as damaging then the ones applied to others. My point is, of course this will be banned if the US gov cannot benefit from it and considered a threat to certain people.
- sangnoir 2y ago
  > But why is that a bad thing I didn't say it was a bad thing - I said there's a better option that wasn't taken. IMO, protecting citizens from bad behavior by domestic and foreign companies is nobler than corporate protectionism. YMMV .

mywittyname 2y ago

> increases division in Western countries. I don't see how people can say this with a straight face knowing that American adversaries operate almost in the open on Facebook. You don't need to control the platform to control the message. That's what social media companies sell!

alcoholic_byte 2y ago
But you need to control the platform to siphon user data , have a foothold into everyone's phone and to peddle misinformation and entertainment instead of education (Chinese version operates differently than the non-Chinese one). There is no greater vehicle to deliver a hooking mechanism to target specific users for spyware upload than an app that is installed on a lot of platforms. Weechat is one other such tool btw. and that thing behaves strangely compared to e.g. Whatsapp if you install it.
throwawayq3423 2y ago
If it has to come down to companies increasing division in Western countries for profit over ideology, then fine. One is a negative externality that can be mitigated, the other is the entire point (therefore cannot be made better).
trimethylpurine 2y ago
That was restricted in previous actions by Facebook, according to Zuckerberg's testimony. So today, you do need to control the platform.
- Capricorn2481 2y ago
  > according to Zuckerberg's testimony Not according to his employees
  - trimethylpurine 2y ago
    That might be true, but after testimony in front of Congress? They would have to be bribing the IRS. No way. I don't like or use Facebook and I hope it dies a horrible death. But I'm also a realist.

Ygg2 2y ago

> increases division in Western countries. To be fair having first past the post voting does wonders for division. No external enemy necessary.

ajmurmann 2y ago
While this AFAIK only applies to the US, it should be the #1 issue to solve. By a wide margin. It's honestly baffling that not everyone with half a brain is up in arms about it.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Most people just don't understand basic math.
  - ajmurmann 2y ago
    Weirdly they understand it well enough to be angry at third candidates spoiling the election, but aren't able to make that last, tiny connection.

atlas_hugged 2y ago

It doesn’t sound like you’ve ever used TikTok. I assumed the same thing going in and found quite the opposite. I’m way better informed since I started using it. In some cases by people that were actually involved in whatever event was newsworthy.

adezxc 2y ago
Don't take my question as aggresive, but why do you think you're "way better informed" since you started using it? Better informed on what?
- harryp_peng 2y ago
  Have you even used TikTok? Facebook connects you with the people around you, and TikTok connects you with your favorite people on earth. That's the essence of the product.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  What the algorithm decided to inform them on.
Retric 2y ago
Selectively reducing or excluding some events as not newsworthy while promoting others is observable when using ticktock and the underlying means of propaganda people are concerned about. For a US example you can simply count the minutes of coverage Fox News and CNN give to various stories for the same basic effect. How much coverage you gives the Russia- Ukraine war can be just as impactful as if you refer to it as a Russian invasion or not.
jimbokun 2y ago
How would you know?
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
At least you think you are way better informed. I don't use TikTok, but I use Facebook and Google's short video versions. I find just as many anti-CCP as pro-CCP content on it, and...I guess these are mostly TikTok videos because many of them still have TikTok watermarks.

henrikschroder 2y ago

> idealizes "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and increases division in Western countries. You're right, everyone I know now buys their glycine from Donghua Jinlong instead of using domestic manufacturers. This is clearly not because of the superior manufacturing capabilities of Donghua Jinlong, who are ISO9001 and ISO14001 certified, and whose glycine is industrial AND food grade, but because of an insidious campaign by the CCP to promote Chinese glycine across the entire industry, trying to crush American glycine manufacturing. I demand congressional hearings about what our elected politicians are doing about this threat to American-made glycine!

atlintots 2y ago
Seeing another DHJL glycine enthusiast here on HN was not on my bingo, but it is a pleasant surprise. Readers might also be happy to know DHJL glycine is Halal, Kosher, and Reach certified, and more recently, FDA approved as well!
- henrikschroder 2y ago
  On a serious note, it's so amusing to me to read the comments of people who hate TikTok, but who clearly haven't used it. They simply have no idea what it looks like and the kind of content that is popular on it. But they're very certain that it's bad! Meanwhile, I'm scratching my head trying to understand how my watch history could have any value whatsoever. Cute kittens, shirtless guys chopping wood, sad hamster memes, Sanchez the sleepy racoon, Young Royals edits, some dude eating all kinds of cheese, A bunch of confused Americans in Europe and vice versa, PEDRO PEDRO PEDRO, guys promoting their onlyfans, schwapeepee, and of course Donghua Jinlong content, although it seems to have run its course now.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

> “socialism with Chinese characteristics" and increases division in Western countries Do you have a single example of a successful Chinese media campaign, disinformation or information - just one? Because I can name, off the top of my head, disinformation campaigns by Trump (election was stole) , by Israel (bunker under a hospital), by Isis (mass recruitment in western countries), by oil companies (heat pumps don’t work in Britain’s unique climate), by food companies, by Russia, by Greenpeace, by crazy people on 4chan but I cannot name a single message that came out of China and got major public resonance in the west.

robgibbons 2y ago
CCP is a major pusher of disinformation/propaganda. Look up Dragonbridge. Or how YouTube had to remove thousands of CCP propaganda channels. Or the classic "US Army Covid Origin" story that China pushed when social media came for Wuhan. China's 50-cent army buys social media accounts, or creates fake personas, to push narratives and abuses reporting/takedown mechanisms to suppress unfavorable posts and channels.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  This is major pusher of propaganda? > Most DRAGONBRIDGE activity is low quality content without a political message, populated across many channels and blogs If anything, this is a demonstration that their efforts are futile and incompetent, very much non-threat. I’ve seen even 4chan do better We have multiple actors that push divisive misinformation through bots, much more successfully, and we do not apply any scrutiny to that.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

>Having the US's primary rival, which runs massive disinformation campaigns, also opaquely control the content that US youth consume en masse seems worse than...just about any alternative. Sounds like a skill issue. The Us has decades worth of a head start on the internet and social media. If "the enemy" can just waltz in and disrupt that in a matter of 5 years, I think we have bigger issues on hand. > Someone like the CCP wants the algorithm to show addictive content that idealizes "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and increases division in Western countries. Yeah, America has a decade long headstart on that too. We blamed facebook in 2016, we're blaming Tiktok in 2024. How long are we going to deflect this to the internet?