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It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position in the US. After computing what I would have to pay for: - Piano lessons for the kids - child care

It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position in the US. After computing what I would have to pay for: - Piano lessons for the kids - child care - sports clubs - golfing - private tutors - rent / mortgage I concluded that my quality of life would decrease. Europe is crazy cheep for families. The UK is particular, brexit did not do them any good.

pedrosorio 3y ago
> It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position in the US. 100k+ has been close to the floor for entry level for a while now. Did you do the math on how much you'd earn over 10 years?
- yoyohello13 3y ago
  100k is the floor? Where do you live? I swear most devs on HN have had their brains addled by inflated salaries.
  - titanomachy 3y ago
    It would be unusual for a new college grad at any well-known tech company in Seattle to make less than $150k right now. Large companies like Amazon, Microsoft, and Google dominate the market here. If you were starting a software company in Seattle, $100k would probably be enough to interest only the most inexperienced and unqualified candidates. New York City and San Francisco Bay Area are similar or higher. I don't have much experience with the rest of the US.
    - fooker 3y ago
      Not just Seattle, I am seeing tech salaries in Denver, SLC, Austin, etc starting from 120-30k nowadays (and growing VERY fast if you stick around for a few years because the smaller cities have trouble keeping experienced engineers from taking a 700k offer from some FAANG company.)
      - Manuel_D 3y ago
        Who's getting the 700K FAANG offers? I say this as someone who just took an offer with ~390K TC for an Amazon SDE III or Meta E5 equivalent at FAANG. 10 YoE. Aside from equity value increasing, I don't think 700K without factoring in rising stock prices is common, outside of niche in demand roles.
        fooker 3y ago
        Meta E5 (~4 yoe) is 520k, and E6 is 760k (~7-8 yoe) according to levels.fyi Seems close to what I have seen offered there.
        guessmyname 3y ago
        > Meta E5 (~4 yoe) is 520k, and E6 is 760k (~7-8 yoe) according to levels.fyi It depends. https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-engineer/levels/e5 https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-... Taking a close look at the data provided in this page, beyond merely considering seniority level and years of experience, reveals a noteworthy trend at Facebook. Many individuals are being hired at level E5 (Senior) with 6-8 years of "relevant" experience, and some even with 10 or more. Some candidates with fewer years of experience, such as the 4 years you mentioned in your comment, are joining Facebook with PhD or Master degrees, which significantly bolsters their overall qualifications. We’re not talking about just any programmer with 4 years of experience in web design straight out of a Bootcamp. These individuals are typically Ivy League graduate students with PhDs or Masters, and approximately 4 years of experience at Tier-1, or at the very least, Tier-2 companies (Fortune 500’s). To illustrate, consider a recent data point submitted to Level/FYI on March 26th, 2024. This individual has been working at Facebook for 4 years and has accumulated a total of 10 years of work experience. Currently specializing in ML/AI, their total compensation amounts to $410,000 (comprising $230,000 in cash per year, along with $180,000 in RSUs per year).
        fooker 3y ago
        Point taken, you cherry-picked a particular low number from the chart though, you could easily do it the other way and find a E5 making 600k at Meta. Apple pays a bit below the silicon valley average, I am not quite I understand sure why---they sure have the money. I had a conversation with an Apple recruiter a couple of years ago who assured me this was not the case, and then eventually their offer was ~25% below my contemporary TC. Also Canada tech salaries are quite a bit below US west coast levels.
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    Entry level for my job in the Bay Area was 110K salary an about a other 70K in RSUs. This was 2015. Granted this was probably above average, as it was a medium sized but highly regarded company.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    In socal, the dev interns I was managing a couple years ago were paid $50/hr. That is a bit over $100k/yr
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    Eh, I would have agreed maybe a decade ago, but the past years have seriously eroded USD buying power[1]. For example, for that 100k in 2014 to be equivalent in 2024, you would need 133k or that your adjusted for inflation dollars are 76K ( and that is BLS ). 100k is the floor, because 100k used to actually mean real money. I no longer think it is. I earn more than that and I believe we are struggling. I don't know how other people manage. [1]https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100%2C000.00&year1=201401&year2=202403 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100%2C000.00&y...
    - OJFord 3y ago
      > 100k is the floor, because 100k used to actually mean real money. I no longer think it is. I earn more than that and I believe we are struggling. I don't know how other people manage. I don't think that can be anything but 'lifestyle inflation'? Even if that's one income, supporting spouse and children.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
        'Lifestyle inflation' is a fascinating phrase and I may need to borrow it for future discussions. I think I strongly disagree, but I am open to convincing. Would you be willing to elaborate?
  - pedrosorio 3y ago
    "had their brains addled"... no need to be mean https://tomazweiss.github.io/blog/so_2023_compensation/ https://tomazweiss.github.io/blog/so_2023_compensation/
  - lannisterstark 3y ago
    >I swear most devs on HN have had their brains addled by inflated salaries. Are you sure it's not just a coping mechanism (I can't find the right word, sorry), for those who didn't get those salaries to say this line? Even in PHX my company offers 95k as starting base for junior devs.
    - hirvi74 3y ago
      I am seriously getting shafted then. That is more than I make currently as a developer, and I have almost 8 years of experience (I also live in the US).
- rustcleaner 3y ago
  $100 is floor?! Here I am at $36 in Socal! I'm in the wrong line of work...
- vundercind 3y ago
  Floor’s around $70k-80k for a new grad in my 3rd-tier (but still a couple million population) non-coastal US city. A couple major tech firms you’ve surely heard of are based here, plus some other really big ones you definitely know of if you work in the industries they serve. Not just offices—headquarters. The benefits will be decent, but nothing special, at a big place and dogshit anywhere smaller, so it’s not made up there. You’ll probably have 10 vacation days, maybe like 14 if they pool vacation and sick leave.
- Propelloni 3y ago
  This sounds like starting up in the USA becomes less viable. And this begs the question why VC is still focused on the USA. 2-3 million dollars in seed money allow me to scale much faster in Europe (and much much faster elsewhere), if only for the fact that the same money I have to pay for an entry level developer in the USA will get me a very senior developer in Europe. Or two, maybe three, juniors.... what do you think?
  - Klonoar 3y ago
    A cynical take is that VCs still focus on the USA because the environment is far more lax and/or easy to take advantage of. That’s not an easy scenario for other countries that care to counter.
  - mobiuscog 3y ago
    Employee 'rights' are often much stronger outside the USA and so whilst you potentially pay more, you can 'downscale' much quicker as well. Look where most of the tech layoffs happen.
fooker 3y ago
Would you mind sharing your math? I had concluded the opposite if you compound over 5-ish years. With two tech incomes, you'll make approximately 4-5 million in the US counting equity, versus about 1 mil everywhere else except maybe Zurich. US expenses over 5 years would be about 800k-1mil excluding a home which you are likely going to sell for far more than you pay for.
- readyman 3y ago
  Your math is based on you and your partner making 400k-500k/yr lol.
  - fooker 3y ago
    Yes, that's what we make right now on average. If you work in tech for a few years that's kind of average. We are having a new PhD grad join next month with a 400k TC offer. If you have trouble believing me, check out levels.fyi for (Facebook:E5, Google:L5-6, Nvidia:IC5, Apple ICT5).
    - readyman 3y ago
      >Yes, that's what we make right now on average. >If you work in tech for a few years that's kind of average. You should probably learn what "average" means if you're getting paid that much to develop software.
      - fooker 3y ago
        The first average is between two people over a few years. The second average is for similar tech jobs. But good job resorting to ad hominem.
        ok_dad 3y ago
        I’ll buy that 400-500k a year is average for Facebook, Apple, Google, etc. It’s absolutely NOT average for companies who aren’t the massive giants that those are. I’ve been in actual tech startups, not Uber for Clowns, and the best salary I’ve seen was an (admittedly very good) $170k for a senior dev position. That’s close to average when I talk to my friends and associates in tech in the valley and beyond.
BoorishBears 3y ago
I'm 30, I can effortlessly save 100k a year after spending money on everything you listed. If you're happier in the EU that's fine, but the math definitely doesn't check out for people focused on finances: even when you take soft benefits into account
- nasmorn 3y ago
  I made 245k USD before taxes in the EU last year self employed. Most people I know cannot believe how much money I made. To make that money you don’t just need to be an average leet Code drone but negotiate great contracts on your projects and take on and manage a lot of risk. What I am saying is: the math definitely doesn’t check out because apparently someone in my position would be doing 3x in the US
bobthepanda 3y ago
are piano lessons, private tutors, and sports clubs regularly affordable in Europe? those hardly sound like government provided services
- tyfon 3y ago
  Most of it is government provided here in Norway. My daughtes do (private) piano lessons and theatre and it's organized and paid by the muni. Sports clubs might have a small fee for equipment, but it's also heavily sponsored by the government, the national lottery etc. For the things not free you can often have them paid for if you are in the low income brackets, and some places just give credit for those types of activity to all children. The reasoning is that children of low income families shouldn't be excluded.
  - fooker 3y ago
    A lot of US public schools provide this, but the quality can be questionable in/around large metros.
- mokkol 3y ago
  Here in Spain, I pay €35/month for weekly piano lessons for my daughter. She loves it and we are really happy with her teacher as well. All from the public music school.
ta1243 3y ago
> The UK is particular, brexit did not do them any good. No shit. That's why working people voted to remain. That's why young people voted to remain. That's why educated people voted to remain. The majority of people in the UK today that voted, voted to remain. Far more leave voters have died in the last 8 years than remain voters.

pedrosorio 3y ago

> It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position in the US. 100k+ has been close to the floor for entry level for a while now. Did you do the math on how much you'd earn over 10 years?

yoyohello13 3y ago
100k is the floor? Where do you live? I swear most devs on HN have had their brains addled by inflated salaries.
- titanomachy 3y ago
  It would be unusual for a new college grad at any well-known tech company in Seattle to make less than $150k right now. Large companies like Amazon, Microsoft, and Google dominate the market here. If you were starting a software company in Seattle, $100k would probably be enough to interest only the most inexperienced and unqualified candidates. New York City and San Francisco Bay Area are similar or higher. I don't have much experience with the rest of the US.
  - fooker 3y ago
    Not just Seattle, I am seeing tech salaries in Denver, SLC, Austin, etc starting from 120-30k nowadays (and growing VERY fast if you stick around for a few years because the smaller cities have trouble keeping experienced engineers from taking a 700k offer from some FAANG company.)
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      Who's getting the 700K FAANG offers? I say this as someone who just took an offer with ~390K TC for an Amazon SDE III or Meta E5 equivalent at FAANG. 10 YoE. Aside from equity value increasing, I don't think 700K without factoring in rising stock prices is common, outside of niche in demand roles.
      - fooker 3y ago
        Meta E5 (~4 yoe) is 520k, and E6 is 760k (~7-8 yoe) according to levels.fyi Seems close to what I have seen offered there.
        guessmyname 3y ago
        > Meta E5 (~4 yoe) is 520k, and E6 is 760k (~7-8 yoe) according to levels.fyi It depends. https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-engineer/levels/e5 https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-... Taking a close look at the data provided in this page, beyond merely considering seniority level and years of experience, reveals a noteworthy trend at Facebook. Many individuals are being hired at level E5 (Senior) with 6-8 years of "relevant" experience, and some even with 10 or more. Some candidates with fewer years of experience, such as the 4 years you mentioned in your comment, are joining Facebook with PhD or Master degrees, which significantly bolsters their overall qualifications. We’re not talking about just any programmer with 4 years of experience in web design straight out of a Bootcamp. These individuals are typically Ivy League graduate students with PhDs or Masters, and approximately 4 years of experience at Tier-1, or at the very least, Tier-2 companies (Fortune 500’s). To illustrate, consider a recent data point submitted to Level/FYI on March 26th, 2024. This individual has been working at Facebook for 4 years and has accumulated a total of 10 years of work experience. Currently specializing in ML/AI, their total compensation amounts to $410,000 (comprising $230,000 in cash per year, along with $180,000 in RSUs per year).
        fooker 3y ago
        Point taken, you cherry-picked a particular low number from the chart though, you could easily do it the other way and find a E5 making 600k at Meta. Apple pays a bit below the silicon valley average, I am not quite I understand sure why---they sure have the money. I had a conversation with an Apple recruiter a couple of years ago who assured me this was not the case, and then eventually their offer was ~25% below my contemporary TC. Also Canada tech salaries are quite a bit below US west coast levels.
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  Entry level for my job in the Bay Area was 110K salary an about a other 70K in RSUs. This was 2015. Granted this was probably above average, as it was a medium sized but highly regarded company.
- sethammons 3y ago
  In socal, the dev interns I was managing a couple years ago were paid $50/hr. That is a bit over $100k/yr
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  Eh, I would have agreed maybe a decade ago, but the past years have seriously eroded USD buying power[1]. For example, for that 100k in 2014 to be equivalent in 2024, you would need 133k or that your adjusted for inflation dollars are 76K ( and that is BLS ). 100k is the floor, because 100k used to actually mean real money. I no longer think it is. I earn more than that and I believe we are struggling. I don't know how other people manage. [1]https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100%2C000.00&year1=201401&year2=202403 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100%2C000.00&y...
  - OJFord 3y ago
    > 100k is the floor, because 100k used to actually mean real money. I no longer think it is. I earn more than that and I believe we are struggling. I don't know how other people manage. I don't think that can be anything but 'lifestyle inflation'? Even if that's one income, supporting spouse and children.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
      'Lifestyle inflation' is a fascinating phrase and I may need to borrow it for future discussions. I think I strongly disagree, but I am open to convincing. Would you be willing to elaborate?
- pedrosorio 3y ago
  "had their brains addled"... no need to be mean https://tomazweiss.github.io/blog/so_2023_compensation/ https://tomazweiss.github.io/blog/so_2023_compensation/
- lannisterstark 3y ago
  >I swear most devs on HN have had their brains addled by inflated salaries. Are you sure it's not just a coping mechanism (I can't find the right word, sorry), for those who didn't get those salaries to say this line? Even in PHX my company offers 95k as starting base for junior devs.
  - hirvi74 3y ago
    I am seriously getting shafted then. That is more than I make currently as a developer, and I have almost 8 years of experience (I also live in the US).
rustcleaner 3y ago
$100 is floor?! Here I am at $36 in Socal! I'm in the wrong line of work...
vundercind 3y ago
Floor’s around $70k-80k for a new grad in my 3rd-tier (but still a couple million population) non-coastal US city. A couple major tech firms you’ve surely heard of are based here, plus some other really big ones you definitely know of if you work in the industries they serve. Not just offices—headquarters. The benefits will be decent, but nothing special, at a big place and dogshit anywhere smaller, so it’s not made up there. You’ll probably have 10 vacation days, maybe like 14 if they pool vacation and sick leave.
Propelloni 3y ago
This sounds like starting up in the USA becomes less viable. And this begs the question why VC is still focused on the USA. 2-3 million dollars in seed money allow me to scale much faster in Europe (and much much faster elsewhere), if only for the fact that the same money I have to pay for an entry level developer in the USA will get me a very senior developer in Europe. Or two, maybe three, juniors.... what do you think?
- Klonoar 3y ago
  A cynical take is that VCs still focus on the USA because the environment is far more lax and/or easy to take advantage of. That’s not an easy scenario for other countries that care to counter.
- mobiuscog 3y ago
  Employee 'rights' are often much stronger outside the USA and so whilst you potentially pay more, you can 'downscale' much quicker as well. Look where most of the tech layoffs happen.

fooker 3y ago

Would you mind sharing your math? I had concluded the opposite if you compound over 5-ish years. With two tech incomes, you'll make approximately 4-5 million in the US counting equity, versus about 1 mil everywhere else except maybe Zurich. US expenses over 5 years would be about 800k-1mil excluding a home which you are likely going to sell for far more than you pay for.

readyman 3y ago
Your math is based on you and your partner making 400k-500k/yr lol.
- fooker 3y ago
  Yes, that's what we make right now on average. If you work in tech for a few years that's kind of average. We are having a new PhD grad join next month with a 400k TC offer. If you have trouble believing me, check out levels.fyi for (Facebook:E5, Google:L5-6, Nvidia:IC5, Apple ICT5).
  - readyman 3y ago
    >Yes, that's what we make right now on average. >If you work in tech for a few years that's kind of average. You should probably learn what "average" means if you're getting paid that much to develop software.
    - fooker 3y ago
      The first average is between two people over a few years. The second average is for similar tech jobs. But good job resorting to ad hominem.
      - ok_dad 3y ago
        I’ll buy that 400-500k a year is average for Facebook, Apple, Google, etc. It’s absolutely NOT average for companies who aren’t the massive giants that those are. I’ve been in actual tech startups, not Uber for Clowns, and the best salary I’ve seen was an (admittedly very good) $170k for a senior dev position. That’s close to average when I talk to my friends and associates in tech in the valley and beyond.

BoorishBears 3y ago

I'm 30, I can effortlessly save 100k a year after spending money on everything you listed. If you're happier in the EU that's fine, but the math definitely doesn't check out for people focused on finances: even when you take soft benefits into account

nasmorn 3y ago
I made 245k USD before taxes in the EU last year self employed. Most people I know cannot believe how much money I made. To make that money you don’t just need to be an average leet Code drone but negotiate great contracts on your projects and take on and manage a lot of risk. What I am saying is: the math definitely doesn’t check out because apparently someone in my position would be doing 3x in the US

bobthepanda 3y ago

are piano lessons, private tutors, and sports clubs regularly affordable in Europe? those hardly sound like government provided services

tyfon 3y ago
Most of it is government provided here in Norway. My daughtes do (private) piano lessons and theatre and it's organized and paid by the muni. Sports clubs might have a small fee for equipment, but it's also heavily sponsored by the government, the national lottery etc. For the things not free you can often have them paid for if you are in the low income brackets, and some places just give credit for those types of activity to all children. The reasoning is that children of low income families shouldn't be excluded.
- fooker 3y ago
  A lot of US public schools provide this, but the quality can be questionable in/around large metros.
mokkol 3y ago
Here in Spain, I pay €35/month for weekly piano lessons for my daughter. She loves it and we are really happy with her teacher as well. All from the public music school.

ta1243 3y ago

> The UK is particular, brexit did not do them any good. No shit. That's why working people voted to remain. That's why young people voted to remain. That's why educated people voted to remain. The majority of people in the UK today that voted, voted to remain. Far more leave voters have died in the last 8 years than remain voters.