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Asus refunds Zenfone buyer for failing to provide bootloader unlock tools
- spuz 2y agoIt's not clear whether a standard refund is an option for buyers whose phones are still under warranty. Did Timothy try that before going to small claims court?
- Rinzler89 2y ago>Given that ASUS has one of the worst software support commitments in the Android world [...] It started removing posts about bootloader unlocking in its ZenTalk forums. Which is why I never understood why Asus Zenfone kept being recommended on HN all the time when people asked for good android phones to buy. I thought this community appreciated long SW support. I think the people recommending it were not dogfooding it. Why not go for something that has 5-7 years of SW updates like a Pixel or a S-series? The Zenfone wasn't any cheaper than those either(at least in EU) so you were also getting a poor value for money.
- esalman 2y agoTbh I don't share the sentiment that the community appreciates long SW support. Otherwise we'd see Windows being recommended over Linux more often.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- throwaway11460 2y agoThis is more about device support for updated OS, which any PC does. Especially with Linux, unlike Windows 11 that can't be installed on older PCs without some hacks.
- jethro_tell 2y agoLol, I guess Linux did just drop 386 and 486 a couple years ago.
- HansHamster 2y agoYou mean Microsoft Windows which dropped support for Zen 1 with Win11 not even 5 years after Zen 1 was released? Meanwhile, Linux will still run on a 30+ year old CPU...
- shepherdjerred 2y agoIsn't Windows 10 still supported?
- shepherdjerred 2y agoI looked into it. Consumer installs of Windows 10 have updates until 2025. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10#Support_lifecycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10#Support_lifecycle
- skinner927 2y agoThey said software support, not hardware support. You can take a win 95 gui app and run it on windows 10 without issue. You can’t do the same on Linux.
- Rinzler89 2y agoPretty much. For the sake of nostalgia, I downloaded an Encarta 2000 ISO form Internet Archive, then spun up a Windows 98 VM to run it on but that VM had a lot of sound issues in Virtual Box, then I realized that Encarta would also run just fine installed on Windows 11 lol. This kind of backwards compatibility is not something I need on a daily basis but it's pretty neat that I can just run very old SW on my main OS without fiddling with VMs.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y agoIn context, it looks like they meant software updates, which is closer to what your calling hardware support.
- yndoendo 2y agoThis is not 100% true. Some legacy Windows software does not run on current Windows. Never got Slave Zero running on Windows XP or Windows 2000 after upgrading from Windows 98 & ME. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Zero
- dns_snek 2y agoIt's really not the same kind of support. We get plenty of active support and development in the Linux world, and open source more broadly. Windows only offers essential life support, trying to ensure that something written 20 years ago still runs today, despite being completely abandoned for 19 years with no reasonable way of fixing it.
- jsheard 2y agoThe Zenfones mainly carved out a following because they're the smallest flagship-tier Android phones on the market. Asus has terrible support, but if you want a small-ish device there isn't a great deal of choice nowadays.
- as1mov 2y agoIndeed, today if you want a phone that isn't gigantic the options are really limited. Zenfone also had benefit of being quite sturdy since the back wasn't made from glass/metal, so you can go without a protective case. I have dropped mine a couple of times, but it hasn't suffered any damage until now.
- yxhuvud 2y agoYou can go without protective shell, but it is so slippery you want one just to avoid airborne phones.
- mablopoule 2y agoAlso, it's one of the rare remaining flagship-tier phone who still allows headphone jack, which is the main reason why I bought a Zenfone last year.
- praisewhitey 2y ago>they're the smallest flagship-tier Android phones They're the same size as the Galaxy S series https://phonesized.com/compare/#2261,2398 https://phonesized.com/compare/#2261,2398
- Audiophilip 2y agoDoes the Galaxy S series have headphone jacks as well?
- magnio 2y agoNo, but can't you use a USB-C earphone?
- as1mov 2y agoAsus allowed bootloader unlock up until a few months ago, which is why I bought the device, i.e even if the company abandons it I can just unlock the bootloader and slap on LineageOS on it. Seems like a mistake now. > Why not go for something that has 5-7 years of SW updates like a Pixel or a S-series? The Zenfone wasn't any cheaper than those either(at least in EU) so you were also getting a poor value for money. SW updates aren't the only criteria when choosing a device, if you're looking for a small phone with a headphone jack and a non-glass/metal back, the number of options are very limited (iirc, Zenfone 9 is literally the only phone which satisfies the constraints).
- Hendrikto 2y ago> Why not go for something that has 5-7 years of SW updates like a Pixel or a S-series? Or an iPhone. People love to hate on Apple, but they actually support their devices.
- luuurker 2y agoOn top of the iOS restrictions vs Android, an iPhone comes with a set of constraints that the type of user that cares about bootloader unlocking doesn't want to deal with. From apps that are not on the store to custom ROMs that have features that the stock OS doesn't have... iPhones are terrible for this. iPhones are good, but in this case it's a bit like recommending a Chromebook to someone that is used to build their own computers and runs linux.
- sfmike 2y agowhat good is SW updates on a pixel that can't even get cellular connectivity
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- cbarrick 2y agoHonestly, I switched from Pixel to Zenfone for the form factor. Ever since the visor redesign with the Pixel 6, the Pixel series has been too big for my hands. I do miss the great Pixel software though...
- pohuing 2y agoSame thing here. Zenfone android is similar to pixel android while I find Samsung's android insanely ugly. I just miss some of the Google app integrations
- cbarrick 2y agoWe'll, TIL that the Zenfone 11 is now a big phone. So I guess I'm going back to Pixel whenever I buy my next phone. https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Asus-Zenfone-10,Asus-Zenfone-11-Ultra/phones/12162,12312 https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Asus-Zenfone-10,Asus-...
- clementmas 2y agoThe refund is probably not worth the time spent building the case but it sends a valuable message. Keep your promises.
- xyst 2y agoI would be surprised if Asus even sends a lawyer to defend against small claims. Might be better to form a class action.
- avianlyric 2y agoIf this went down the small claims track in the UK then ASUS wouldn’t bother with a lawyer because you’re not allowed to reclaim legal costs in the small claims court. So unless ASUS thinks they’re gonna see a flood of similar claims happening, then the cost of a lawyer would probably be triple the cost of settling, or even winning the case. Also class action cases are very rare in the UK. In the past the courts have generally refused to approve class action cases. It not like in the U.S. where there’s a cottage industry around class action cases. I’ve personally never heard of a class action case happening in the UK, I know they do happen, but they’re so rare that they don’t make it into the news, and most people will never involved in one either directly or indirectly.
- kadoban 2y ago> I would be surprised if Asus even sends a lawyer to defend against small claims. Wouldn't that be a good reason to do small claims? I can't imagine why I'd want to wait for years in a class action when I can just do a small claims.
- bxparks 2y agoI would bet that neither small claims or class action is possible in the US because ASUS has a forced binding arbitration clause in their End User Agreement that almost no one read when they activated their phones.
- avianlyric 2y agoThere probably wasn’t much time spent building the case. Generally solicitors aren’t involved in these cases because it’s not possible to reclaim legal costs, regardless of who wins. Instead most people just represent themselves, and companies will often just send a local manager to represent them. So super low stakes legal process, where in the worst case scenario your out of pocket for the filing costs (£70) plus reasonable expenses for the other party (travel costs, lost earnings etc) which are all tightly capped, so unlikely to more than another £100-£200.
- sn0wtrooper 2y agoLong is gone the time where unlocking bootloaders and installing custom ROMs was the best path to follow. Even if you are able to unlock it (with difficulties such as this one, or others that involve opening the device and soldering a shortcut), you will have a device where apps check for unlocked bootloaders and rooted OS, and forbid you from use the application.
- jMyles 2y ago> Long is gone the time where unlocking bootloaders and installing custom ROMs was the best path to follow. ...wha? I just installed GrapheneOS on my Pixel 8 Pro and it is, by a decent margin, the best custom ROM experience on a phone I've had to date.
- encom 2y ago>GrapheneOS This was not a project I expected to use Discord for support. Sad.
- asdp9iujaspid 2y agohttps://grapheneos.org/contact#community https://grapheneos.org/contact#community > Our chat rooms are bridged across Discord, Telegram and Matrix so you can choose your preferred platform. > We have an official forum for longer form posts, which is publicly accessible and easier to search. We are using Flarum for our forum. https://discuss.grapheneos.org/ https://discuss.grapheneos.org/ If they mandated discord as a closed support community sure, but you can't be too upset by the mere affiliation with a discord channel when they also offer all the above
- encom 2y agoI'm just disappointed that they associate with Discord at all, given that it is the antithesis of privacy and Freedom.
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- DoneWithAllThat 2y agoThe article casually refers to Asus breaking “their promise” but nothing in the rest of the article suggests Asus ever promised anything of the sort. That they used to provide the tools wasn’t a promise. Did they ever advertise or up-front communicate that these tools would be made available and maintained?
- dangus 2y agoIt doesn’t matter because my guess is Asus couldn’t be bothered to show up to small claims court over $900.
- Knork-and-Fife 2y agoA lot of the zenphone series had bootloader unlock as a listed feature which was then removed when they disabled and took down the tool. The Zenfone 10 was advertised as going to have the feature as well before and even after the launch for a bit. Asus claimed that the tool was coming at several points but the date in their promises kept getting pushed back and eventually turned into we don't know and now it appears to be never. This is stuff that was in writing from them, search it up, but you'll need to check the Internet archive for the info that they've removed from their own sites (like the repeated pushing and cancelling of the return of the unlock tool)
- luuurker 2y agoAsus even used to send free phones to developers over at XDA Developers so they could create custom ROMs and stuff like that, so that excuse doesn't work for them.
- tvshtr 2y agoThere was system part in developer settings which they removed AFTER you bought the phone. Thus clearly removing functionality that was supposed to be there.
- ReptileMan 2y agoOkay - so which devices are left that are easily rootable? I will be in the market for new one soon. It's good if EU after mandating usb-c also mandates unlockable bootloaders for whomever wants it.
- handity 2y agoThe pixel 4a is the last good phone that's small, rootable, with a headphone jack and good rom options.
- resource_waste 2y agoI just looked it up... they actually sell Factory 5a... what? No... Maybe I misunderstand the posting.
- kadoban 2y agoThey stopped including headphone jacks at some point, IIRC after the 4a.
- freedomben 2y agoAll pixel phones are very easy to unlock the bootloader, and Google publishes factory images. So if your root goes wrong or you need to revert to stock, it is very easy. The actual process of obtaining root is as easy as it is on any other device, which is to say, I wish it was a lot easier, but it is very doable. As a bonus, it also opens the door for Graphene OS should you choose to go that direction.
- Cort3z 2y agoBesides the point here, but why is it so diabolically hard to decline cookies on this site?
- written-beyond 2y ago[dead]
- tim333 2y agoI'm not sure cookie declining is the way to go these days. You can use "I still don't care about cookies" to stop the dumb pop ups and something like "Firefox Total Cookie Protection" if you don't want to be tracked?
- alwayslikethis 2y agoPersonally I set Firefox to auto clear cookies on window close except some whitelisted sites. I just use accept all most of the times since it will be cleared anyways.
- Cort3z 2y agoThis is a false sense of security. Cookies isn’t random data. It is fingerprints and all kinds of dark wizardry. Chances are your cookies will be the same each time they are generated. You have to disable cookies or tell the company responsible that you don’t want it. The latter, I believe (though ianal), is legally binding.
- Cort3z 2y agoI’m on mobile though, which makes it harder, but thanks for the tip for my desktop!
- ktosobcy 2y agoI do hope that (for example) EU would force makers to provide a way to unlock the device and install any OS/distribution I want...
- hocuspocus 2y agoThe EU wants to mandate 5 years of security updates, which is a lot more relevant to the immense majority of consumers.
- ktosobcy 2y agoOne doesn't (have to) rule out the other? Would it be OK if you were forced to use only the single OS that your computer came preinstalled with?
- mnw21cam 2y ago> This has set a basic precedent I would note that technically the small claims court in the UK does not set precedents. That would be the function of a higher court.
- FerretFred 2y agoHard to believe that it actually reached the Small Claims Court, let alone succeeded! Well done that person!
- rahimnathwani 2y ago> Hard to believe that it actually reached the Small Claims Court It's easy to file a small claim in the UK. More info on the process for England & Wales here: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money > let alone succeeded! The article is light on details, but it sounds like the parties settled before any hearing or ruling.
- b112 2y agoIn Ontario, Canada, part of the small claims process is a pre-trial conference, with a retired judge moderating. Further, nothing disclosed may be used as part of the trial. Its goal is to help with an amicable settlement. More info: In small claims, lawyers are not forbidden, but they may only speak for their client, and their client must be there, or present remorely, listening and ready to accept offers or deals. And if lawyers use legalese, the residing judge must explain to you what is being said, and will look unfavorably at the lawyer for not speaking plainly, and wasting everyone's time. Technically lawyers are not allowed as lawyers, but accommodations must be made for a company 1000s of km or more away. Someone must speak for them.
- rahimnathwani 2y agoDid you intend to reply to a different comment?
- solarkraft 2y ago> ASUS makes some of the best Android phones you can buy > ASUS has one of the worst software support commitments in the Android world How can you possibly say both things in the same article?
- Guzba 2y agoThe type of consumer buying an ASUS device is the type of consumer that thinks the spec sheet tells them how good something is. Eg, faster CPU and more RAM, or higher screen refresh rate or whatever is good regardless of any other variables or the package as a whole. This means they are "some of the best Android phones you can buy", as in, they have some of the best specs per $ you can buy. Not that they are actually good phones. It makes total sense someone could think they are great phones while they also have terrible software support since software support is not a simple hardware number on the spec sheet. This is very like PC people that hyper-focus on a few metrics like CPU frequency since it is simple and numerical and easily compared, even if it is not actually sufficient to tell you much about full system performance. Example ASUS phone description from enthusiast: "It's got good speakers, 2 charge ports, 165 refresh rate, optimal cooling, a set of ultra sonic buttons, ip54, crazy good battery, acceptable camera, storage is crazy high 256GB for 1 grand, 512 for 1.1 grand, 12G ram for 1k, 16G ram for 1.1k, can take 2 sim cards."
- akvadrako 2y agoI disagree - I don't care about most specs, but ASUS Zenfone is still one of the best small phones, especially for the money.
- iforgotpassword 2y agoI have an old Huawei P20 Pro floating around. When it was new, you could contact Huawei and get a code for unlocking the bootloader after providing your phone's serial number. Great I thought, I'll do that later when it stops receiving updates. Stupid me, at some point those arseholes stopped giving out the unlock codes. I wonder if one could sue, but from googling around a bit I can't find a trace of them ever making this a selling point explicitly.
- huppeldepup 2y agoOn this page: https://consumer.huawei.com/en/community/details/P20-Pro-Bootloader-Unlock-Code/topicId_164570/ https://consumer.huawei.com/en/community/details/P20-Pro-Boo... there's someone from Huawei who acknowledges the policy change, with a date. Maybe check archive.org for the mentioned time and url? HTH.
- xjwm 2y agoI just sent feedback to ASUS expressing my concern at the loss of bootloader unlocking. I have 2 perfectly good cell phones that are e-waste now, simply because the vendor stopped issuing patches, and the bootloader can't be unlocked to use LineageOS. I bought a Zenfone recently because I thought I'd be avoiding that issue. If they don't fix this, I won't be buying another one. ASUS CEO contact page: https://www.asus.com/us/support/article/787/ https://www.asus.com/us/support/article/787/
- ijijijjij 2y ago[flagged]
- Pannoniae 2y agoI think GP meant two other devices (not from asus) where the vendor doesn't patch and the bootloader is locked.
- ijijijjij 2y agoeven if it is different companies, not sure if it makes a difference... it just encourage bad practices. AKA.... don't look at the small picture.
- xjwm 2y agoYou're correct. My other phones were from my wireless carrier, and didn't support unlocking the bootloader, so I had to keep upgrading (over a period of years.) I bought the Zenfone to try to break that cycle. The old devices still function, aside from being outside of vendor support (or in the case of one, incompatible with the carrier's network after infrastructure upgrades.)
- ijijijjij 2y ago[dead]
- luuurker 2y ago
- throwaway5959 2y ago[flagged]
- jstanley 2y agoInstalling an alternative OS.
- throwaway5959 2y agoOK, but that’s still a 1% use case.
- hu3 2y agoit's 100% for those who want
- NayamAmarshe 2y agoI'm on a 5 years old phone with Android 14. The OEM stopped the update on Android 11 but the Custom ROM community is going strong. Not only do I now have the latest software that works smoother, but also better camera with GCam, no ads systemwide, better privacy controls through Warden and other similar apps. I just avoided e-waste.
- throwaway5959 2y ago> Not only do I now have the latest software that works smoother, but also better camera with GCam, no ads systemwide, better privacy controls through Warden and other similar apps. Sounds like a lot of that functionality could be achieved by just buying an iPhone instead. The 6s received updates through 7 major versions.
- sexy_seedbox 2y agoWith Android, I'm an admin of my phone with full control. With iPhone, you're just a user.
- BLKNSLVR 2y agoWith the increasing difficulty (impossibility) of bootloader unlocking that most manufacturers are building into their Android devices, I wonder whether it's market reasons (the longer the devices are operational, the longer upgrade cycle) or pressure from intelligence agencies due to minimised Google / telemetry data back doors in custom ROMs. Using the "simplest answer is often the best" approach, it would historically be the profit motivation at 99% probability. Currently, though, feels like surveillance and intelligence gathering is edging to the higher likelihood. Edited to add: and maybe it's not even intelligence agencies, maybe it's purely profit driven from the personal-data-selling industry.
- alwayslikethis 2y agoIt would then be quite shocking to know that Google's Pixel phones consistently allowed unlocking without any nonsense like online verification. They also support relocking your bootloaders as well as using your own signing keys for secure boot.
- bcraven 2y agoI think this is the original thread: https://xdaforums.com/t/court-action-against-asus-false-promise-on-bootloader-unlock-tool.4657042/ https://xdaforums.com/t/court-action-against-asus-false-prom...