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Steve Jobs has a great quote about this, from The Lost Interview: “… it's the disease of thinking that a really great idea is 90% of the work, and if you just

Steve Jobs has a great quote about this, from The Lost Interview: “… it's the disease of thinking that a really great idea is 90% of the work, and if you just tell all these other people "here's this great idea" then of course they can go off and make it happen. And the problem with that is that there is just a tremendous amount of craftsmanship in between a great idea and a great product. And as you evolve that great idea it changes and grows. It never comes out like it starts because you learn a lot more as you get in the subtleties of it. And you also find there's tremendous trade-offs that you have to make. There are just certain things you can't make electrons do. There are certain things you can't make plastic do or glass do. Or factories do, or robots do. And as you get in to all these things, designing a product is keeping 5000 things in your brain, these concepts. And fitting them all together and kind of continuing to push to fit them together in new and different ways to get what you want. And every day you discover something new that is a new problem or a new opportunity to fit these things together a little differently. It's that process that is the magic."

iamacyborg 2y ago
Which is all somewhat ironic coming from Steve Jobs.
- pavlov 2y ago
  Why? Do you think Jobs was a hands-off idea man who let others sweat the details?
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - edouard-harris 2y ago
      I'd suggest reading the book Creative Selection by Ken Kocienda, which makes it clear that this wasn't the case.
    - boringg 2y ago
      You have a lot to learn about Steve.
  - bruckie 2y ago
    > Do you think Jobs was a hands-off idea man who let others sweat the details? Very much not the case. I was on the iPod software team 15 years ago, and let me tell you, we got plenty of detailed feedback from periodic "SJ reviews". My manager (a line manager of a small team) went to those meetings and came back with lots of very specific things we needed to change. One year (fall 2008) Steve was going on vacation to Italy for a week or two, and asked for a development version of the iPod shuffle we were working on to take with him on the trip. (We were terrified, because it wasn't really ready for that level of scrutiny.) That was at a time when the iPhone 3G and the original iPad were also under development, and yet we got a bunch of feedback on the humble little iPod shuffle when he returned. He really was in the details, to an astonishing degree, and not just for the headline products, either.
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      This seems to just re-enforce that he was an ideas man. I've yet to hear a story where Jobs was the one who discovered the fix, only stories that he pointed out the things that needed to be fixed. He's lauded as a visionary, not as an engineer. And all the stories about him are about him pushing others to realize his vision. Edit: Lots of people seem to disagree with me, but then pointing out how he was an extremely skilled ideas man. Perhaps that term has too much negative connotation for Jobs' visions (ideas) to be associated with?
      - kevinmchugh 2y ago
        Nobody's claiming that he was a programmer. From what I've read, though, he had a very keen sense of design and product. Here's an anecdote: https://www.folklore.org/Calculator_Construction_Set.html https://www.folklore.org/Calculator_Construction_Set.html I think "ideas guy" doesn't capture this. He had big ideas but also was super particular about details. (Which doesn't justify being a prick, to be certain)
      - jdgoesmarching 2y ago
        Maybe the lines are more blurry, but design, marketing, and product are not just “ideas.” I’m not going to weigh in on what Steve contributed, but it’s perfectly plausible that he did so without writing code or holding a soldering iron. Not to say ideas guys aren’t prevalent, but for all his faults I would argue that Jobs wasn’t one of them.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- passwordoops 2y ago
  I recommend finding people who worked at Apple while Steve Jobs was around. He was more involved than just barking I want "An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator."
  - Pxtl 2y ago
    Yes, he was also haranguing and leaning on and verbally abusing Apple employees to get the most productivity out of them.
    - b112 2y ago
      Just as everyone else did in the 80s. Judge people by the times they lived in, for you will be judged the same. (Without a doubt, something you think is OK, and everyone else does, will be seen as a horrible monstrosity by your descendants. It won't be something you can think of, and yet you'll be judged for it as a monster by some.)
      - onion2k 2y ago
        By all accounts Steve carried on managing the same way when he returned to Apple in 1997.
      - bee_rider 2y ago
        He was a pretty huge jerk to his wife and kid even by the standards of the day. He seems to have just not been a very nice guy. Jerks can invent interesting tech, right?
      - buildsjets 2y ago
        Even in the 1980s, people who intentionally parked their unregistered Porches in handicapped spaces were considered monsters. Don't try to retcon Steve Jobs into something he was not. He was a brilliant scumbag.
        hobs 2y ago
        Don't forget that he leased them new continuously so that he always kept them unregistered and therefore wouldn't get ticketed!
- jimbokun 2y ago
  Huh? From everything I’ve read, Jobs was deep in the weeds with all that stuff. In terms of asking all the relevant questions, finding the right experts, the suppliers to provide the right inputs at the right price, finding alternative solutions to problems, etc. I doubt very many people knew more about bringing a new product idea to fruition from beginning to end than him.
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  I think your sentiment might be rooted in never having worked with a good product manager. What Jobs described is what I expect from a good PM. However, frequently PMs have so little understating how the product they manage works and is built and aren't that amazing at their own core skill set that developers either must push them up a hill or make these decisions instead of the PM turning the product manager into more of a project manager or mouth piece at best. It's a real shame because a good product manager can provide exactly the value Jobs is describing.
  - treflop 2y ago
    A good product manager is key. I don’t think people realize how shitty everything you make is. It’s only through continuous improvement and iterations that it becomes really nice. Unless it’s something you’ve done many times before, if no one is pointing out problems with your design in the first version, it’s probably hot garbage.
  - htrp 2y ago
    project manager (pm) is the bare minimum that Product Manager (PM) has to do. Unfortunately, a lot of PM's only check the project manager box.
    - ajmurmann 2y ago
      I'm not sure about the pm part. They certainly have to worry about it, but scheduling and delivery logistics to a large degree need to be a shared responsibility between product and engineering leadership. This is where the role responsibilities can get quite messy.
- ccorcos 2y ago
  Steve Jobs was technical though...
Saulivar 2y ago
Acquaintance of mine bought an iPad. Proudly showed it to me how he can draw this and that. 6 months later he somehow forgot the password, entered it wrong too many times and the iPad is a brick. He's 75 years old. He can't find a receipt, there's no way to restore it. There's no way to put Linux on it. There's no way to do anything. Another example - my mom. I was feeling generous, bought her an iPad as a present. Now nothing works on it anymore. You need some type of ID. The one I have never works. The whole thing is a brick. Useless piece of crap. She's 77 years old and uses her small phone screen to do anything. So that's Apple products for you. They benefit the company, not the owner. You shell out thousands of dollars, end up with a brick. I will never buy another product from Apple again. (My wife just bought a brand new iPhone. Lol). Let's see how long that will work for her.
- crimsontech 2y ago
  > So that's Apple products for you. Makes you wonder why they are so popular if this is the average user experience right?
  - igor47 2y ago
    I think this was tongue in cheek but some reasons: * Apple products are status symbols * Induced demand through marketing * Ecosystem lock-in, once you go Apple it's hard to switch back out
  - Saulivar 2y ago
    Why they're so popular? I'll tell you why. Because 90% of the people are irrational buyers. They buy to impress their annoying cousin, or prove that they're more worthy than his wife's sister's husband. Because Apple's products are pricey and iPad case costs more than a iPad's competitor itself. Same reason why my friend business owner in Dubai says his employees from India buy the most expensive phone with their first salary. Just because you buy the most expensive product, doesn't mean you get the best quality. And good marketers know it.
  - jjav 2y ago
    > Makes you wonder why they are so popular if this is the average user experience right? Because people in general don't do risk analysis. Like in the 80s when everyone still smoked despite the risk of death being well known. Oh it won't happen to me! Then when you have to throw away that perfectly functional $1000 apple device because apple decided you can't use it anymore, only then you realize you've been had.

iamacyborg 2y ago

Which is all somewhat ironic coming from Steve Jobs.

pavlov 2y ago
Why? Do you think Jobs was a hands-off idea man who let others sweat the details?
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - edouard-harris 2y ago
    I'd suggest reading the book Creative Selection by Ken Kocienda, which makes it clear that this wasn't the case.
  - boringg 2y ago
    You have a lot to learn about Steve.
- bruckie 2y ago
  > Do you think Jobs was a hands-off idea man who let others sweat the details? Very much not the case. I was on the iPod software team 15 years ago, and let me tell you, we got plenty of detailed feedback from periodic "SJ reviews". My manager (a line manager of a small team) went to those meetings and came back with lots of very specific things we needed to change. One year (fall 2008) Steve was going on vacation to Italy for a week or two, and asked for a development version of the iPod shuffle we were working on to take with him on the trip. (We were terrified, because it wasn't really ready for that level of scrutiny.) That was at a time when the iPhone 3G and the original iPad were also under development, and yet we got a bunch of feedback on the humble little iPod shuffle when he returned. He really was in the details, to an astonishing degree, and not just for the headline products, either.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    This seems to just re-enforce that he was an ideas man. I've yet to hear a story where Jobs was the one who discovered the fix, only stories that he pointed out the things that needed to be fixed. He's lauded as a visionary, not as an engineer. And all the stories about him are about him pushing others to realize his vision. Edit: Lots of people seem to disagree with me, but then pointing out how he was an extremely skilled ideas man. Perhaps that term has too much negative connotation for Jobs' visions (ideas) to be associated with?
    - kevinmchugh 2y ago
      Nobody's claiming that he was a programmer. From what I've read, though, he had a very keen sense of design and product. Here's an anecdote: https://www.folklore.org/Calculator_Construction_Set.html https://www.folklore.org/Calculator_Construction_Set.html I think "ideas guy" doesn't capture this. He had big ideas but also was super particular about details. (Which doesn't justify being a prick, to be certain)
    - jdgoesmarching 2y ago
      Maybe the lines are more blurry, but design, marketing, and product are not just “ideas.” I’m not going to weigh in on what Steve contributed, but it’s perfectly plausible that he did so without writing code or holding a soldering iron. Not to say ideas guys aren’t prevalent, but for all his faults I would argue that Jobs wasn’t one of them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
passwordoops 2y ago
I recommend finding people who worked at Apple while Steve Jobs was around. He was more involved than just barking I want "An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator."
- Pxtl 2y ago
  Yes, he was also haranguing and leaning on and verbally abusing Apple employees to get the most productivity out of them.
  - b112 2y ago
    Just as everyone else did in the 80s. Judge people by the times they lived in, for you will be judged the same. (Without a doubt, something you think is OK, and everyone else does, will be seen as a horrible monstrosity by your descendants. It won't be something you can think of, and yet you'll be judged for it as a monster by some.)
    - onion2k 2y ago
      By all accounts Steve carried on managing the same way when he returned to Apple in 1997.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      He was a pretty huge jerk to his wife and kid even by the standards of the day. He seems to have just not been a very nice guy. Jerks can invent interesting tech, right?
    - buildsjets 2y ago
      Even in the 1980s, people who intentionally parked their unregistered Porches in handicapped spaces were considered monsters. Don't try to retcon Steve Jobs into something he was not. He was a brilliant scumbag.
      - hobs 2y ago
        Don't forget that he leased them new continuously so that he always kept them unregistered and therefore wouldn't get ticketed!
jimbokun 2y ago
Huh? From everything I’ve read, Jobs was deep in the weeds with all that stuff. In terms of asking all the relevant questions, finding the right experts, the suppliers to provide the right inputs at the right price, finding alternative solutions to problems, etc. I doubt very many people knew more about bringing a new product idea to fruition from beginning to end than him.
ajmurmann 2y ago
I think your sentiment might be rooted in never having worked with a good product manager. What Jobs described is what I expect from a good PM. However, frequently PMs have so little understating how the product they manage works and is built and aren't that amazing at their own core skill set that developers either must push them up a hill or make these decisions instead of the PM turning the product manager into more of a project manager or mouth piece at best. It's a real shame because a good product manager can provide exactly the value Jobs is describing.
- treflop 2y ago
  A good product manager is key. I don’t think people realize how shitty everything you make is. It’s only through continuous improvement and iterations that it becomes really nice. Unless it’s something you’ve done many times before, if no one is pointing out problems with your design in the first version, it’s probably hot garbage.
- htrp 2y ago
  project manager (pm) is the bare minimum that Product Manager (PM) has to do. Unfortunately, a lot of PM's only check the project manager box.
  - ajmurmann 2y ago
    I'm not sure about the pm part. They certainly have to worry about it, but scheduling and delivery logistics to a large degree need to be a shared responsibility between product and engineering leadership. This is where the role responsibilities can get quite messy.
ccorcos 2y ago
Steve Jobs was technical though...

Saulivar 2y ago

Acquaintance of mine bought an iPad. Proudly showed it to me how he can draw this and that. 6 months later he somehow forgot the password, entered it wrong too many times and the iPad is a brick. He's 75 years old. He can't find a receipt, there's no way to restore it. There's no way to put Linux on it. There's no way to do anything. Another example - my mom. I was feeling generous, bought her an iPad as a present. Now nothing works on it anymore. You need some type of ID. The one I have never works. The whole thing is a brick. Useless piece of crap. She's 77 years old and uses her small phone screen to do anything. So that's Apple products for you. They benefit the company, not the owner. You shell out thousands of dollars, end up with a brick. I will never buy another product from Apple again. (My wife just bought a brand new iPhone. Lol). Let's see how long that will work for her.

crimsontech 2y ago
> So that's Apple products for you. Makes you wonder why they are so popular if this is the average user experience right?
- igor47 2y ago
  I think this was tongue in cheek but some reasons: * Apple products are status symbols * Induced demand through marketing * Ecosystem lock-in, once you go Apple it's hard to switch back out
- Saulivar 2y ago
  Why they're so popular? I'll tell you why. Because 90% of the people are irrational buyers. They buy to impress their annoying cousin, or prove that they're more worthy than his wife's sister's husband. Because Apple's products are pricey and iPad case costs more than a iPad's competitor itself. Same reason why my friend business owner in Dubai says his employees from India buy the most expensive phone with their first salary. Just because you buy the most expensive product, doesn't mean you get the best quality. And good marketers know it.
- jjav 2y ago
  > Makes you wonder why they are so popular if this is the average user experience right? Because people in general don't do risk analysis. Like in the 80s when everyone still smoked despite the risk of death being well known. Oh it won't happen to me! Then when you have to throw away that perfectly functional $1000 apple device because apple decided you can't use it anymore, only then you realize you've been had.