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It's funny. I lost tens of thousands of dollars thanks to this individual, yet his sentence brings me no joy or arouses any emotion at all. I'm utterly indiffer

It's funny. I lost tens of thousands of dollars thanks to this individual, yet his sentence brings me no joy or arouses any emotion at all. I'm utterly indifferent to his fate for some reason and I don't know why. Yet if he had been a mugger who stole a much smaller amount of money from me on the street, I think I would've been far more vengeful. Should I feel vindictive? Or is it healthy to forget about it and move on? I'm not sure.

paulpauper 3y ago
maybe tens of thousands of dollars was not that much relative to your net worth. some people lost it all
ShamelessC 3y ago
It is _obviously_ healthy to forget about it and move on. Having said that, any anger at the guy is going to be not because he effected any one person, but because he effected so many - and because he embodied a particular attitude in the cryptocurrency world that lives on in so many others who haven't yet had their luck run out.
bdcravens 3y ago
Perhaps previous exit scams in the crypto space dulled your senses? If anything, I feel like you should share your story to protect others, especially during times when crypto is peaking (like now) and others are tempted to jump in: use exchanges to buy/sell and get out, store your keys on a cold storage device, and transfer out fiat ASAP.
- CivBase 3y ago
  Surely the better takeaway is to just not bet on crypto in general? It's supposed to act like a currency, not a stock. So long as people keep feeding into these pump-and-dump schemes they'll keep happening. Money doesn't come from nowhere. For every dollar you make on crypto, somone loses a dollar. All these BS coins do is shuffle wealth from the unlucky gamblers to the lucky ones. Go spend your money at a casino instead.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    > For every dollar you make on crypto, somone loses a dollar. If that's not true of the stock market, why would that be true of crypto?
    - CivBase 3y ago
      This is oversimplifying, but stocks are essentially purchasing a stake in ownership of the company. The company uses that money to advance its mission - ideally generating more profits which are shared with the stockholders (dividends). It's that stake in ownership and expected dividends that give stocks inherent value. There is no company behind crypto currencies that holders get ownership of. There is no product or service to drive profits. There are no dividends, voting power, or anything that gives inherent value to the coins. It's all pure speculation. Just money getting shifted around among the holders - with exchanges taking a cut off the top of each transaction.
      - fragmede 3y ago
        I'm sorry, but what am going to do with my Class C shares of Google which have no voting rights? They also haven't paid dividends. My buying of them didn't give Google any money, either. My infinitesimal ownership in Google doesn't get anything other than it's a number in a database somewhere that hopefully goes up. There's underlying assets there, sure, but as we've seen with GME, TSLA, and now NVDA, it's all just vibes. In this case though, FTX had their own token FTT that gave people that owned it voting rights in FTX and "staking rewards" aka dividends. It's not worth anything today due to the fraud that SBF perpetrated, but that sure smells a awful lot like a stock to me.
        hgomersall 3y ago
        Right. There seems to be a real aversion to accepting that trading shares is really just middle class gambling.
        methodical 3y ago
- forgotmyinfo 3y ago
  If it isn't obvious already that cryptocurrency is one giant grift, then I don't know how many more stories are going to help. The SEC or Congress or someone with power needs to just make it illegal, or else this kind of thing will keep happening. It happened before we got our shit together in the early 20th century, but we collectively realized markets were actively doing shady things, and then we legislated to fix things. Will we do it again?
chanamasala 3y ago
[flagged]
ragazzina 3y ago
It is funny - especially when you consider a mugger on the street would need your money much more than SBF ever would.
- blululu 3y ago
  Not really. The use of a gun/knife/lethal force implies a much different risk profile (you could easily die or be crippled for life). It's not about the money - it's about the violence.
  - xmprt 3y ago
    That's a fair point. With FTX you might feel some sense of responsibility because you voluntarily gave up your money (whether it was fraud by deception or not). But a mugger is infringing on your freedom to walk around at night.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - umeshunni 3y ago
    Yeah, in one case, a few numbers in a database somewhere changed. In the other, you could be left for dead in an alley in Oakland.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      > a few numbers in a database somewhere changed That is very crass. Tell that to someone who lost a big chunk of their savings. "Just numbers in a database" indeed.
      - acdha 3y ago
        If someone put a big chunk of their savings into a speculative vehicle, they should be having a moment of contemplation about why they ignored basic investment advice. It’s not a happy moment for anyone but at some point you do have to take responsibility for your decisions.
rsoto2 3y ago
Mugging is more traumatic short term? In total, white collar wage-theft dwarfs property theft but you may not feel its effects immediately.
flockonus 3y ago
It's good to process the emotions associated, if truly is none, then great! Still suggest meditating if something didn't get pushed under the mind's rug with the financial loss. Definitely move on, this case had some external closure where most hurts in life don't.
micromacrofoot 3y ago
Mugging is much more violent and personal. SBF didn't see you and think "that's the person I'm going to get" he essentially created a fraud machine that you and hundreds of others got caught up in. Very impersonal.
- phone8675309 3y ago
  But no less financially destructive
freedomben 3y ago
Purely speculation on my part, but I tend to feel similarly, and I think the reason is that the mugger includes a physical threat of violence. Evolutionarily, the emergence of an economy with capital at modern-day scales are so new that we haven't had time to really adjust emotionally. It kind of reminds me of the various birds on previously untouched-by-humanity islands that had no fear of humans and would just sit there and allow a human to club them to death, until their species went extinct. They had no time evolutionarily to develop an innate (emotional) fear of humans. Physical violence/robbery on the other hand is a long-standing human tradition, and something we are hardwired to react to emotionally (Amygdala vs. PFC, etc). We can of course override our Amygdalas with our PFCs to some extent (in the medium to long-term), but the "gut reaction" core is still there. Another possible reason (for me at least) is that ethically I have a lot of inner turmoil over violent punishments (which physical incarceration absolutely is IMHO) for nonviolent crimes. Of course reality is much more grayscale than that given that crimes like SBFs could leave a family destitute and starving, which is violence-adjacent if not outrightly violent. A violent sentence for a violent crime intuitively feels a lot more "let the punishment fit the crime" than a violent sentence for a nonviolent crime. Anyway, I don't have answers, but throwing some speculation onto the pile.
- bgitarts 3y ago
  I had a business partner/family member steal money from me in our business. It very much hurt and was a painful experience hoping for vengence. Perhaps SBF being distant from you is what makes you indifferent.
  - nerpderp82 3y ago
    This is the pain of losing trust and getting taken advantage of by someone that is close to you.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Yes that's fair criticism regarding my feelings, but GP feels the same and they had stolen $10K. So the distance from it can't be all there is to it. I'm also pretty distant from a mugging that might happen today, but I find myself getting angry about it, so that also seems to contradict the theory that it's about distance (though to be clear, I largely agree with you and I suspect distance is going to be a factor for most or maybe the vast majority of people).
__loam 3y ago
I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done.
- freedomben 3y ago
  > I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done. How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? Would you be giddy if he were being flogged, or hanged? As long as there has been recording, flogging and hangings were common punishments and usually defended as "justice has been done." Incarceration really isn't far from medieval punishments. I'm by no means suggesting that nothing should be done, and maybe 25 years in prison is a just sentence (that's debatable, but for moving forward let's assume it is), but it still leaves me with a sick feeling. I just can't relate whatsoever with feeling "giddy" over it.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    Many people see justice served as a win for society, a reason to be hopeful that the future will be better. One life out of billions is valuable only to that person and their immediately family, it would be odd to feel sick over someone else getting punished for defrauding so many others of their life savings.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      > it would be odd to feel sick over someone else getting punished for defrauding so many others of their life savings. that's a pretty extreme strawman of my position. Don't you think there's some spectrum between 25 years of prison time and no punishment? And if you don't, then how would you feel about flogging or hanging as I mentioned above? Does it seem odd to you for someone to feel sick about a public hanging in the town square, even if the person is guilty of the crime?
      - adolph 3y ago
        > some spectrum between 25 years of prison time and no punishment That isn’t the range at hand. SBF got something between what prosecutor and defender asked and much lower than theoretical max. Max: 110y Procecutor: 40-50y Defender: 6.5y Actual: 25y
anonu 3y ago
Are you expecting to recover any money from this? I understood everyone would be made whole at some point.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  > I understood everyone would be made whole at some point That is only true if you define 'made whole' as giving back each customer the amount of money denominated in USD that they deposited with FTX. That is super convenient for FTX, which has benefited from the spike in BTC value, but not for the customer. To really be made whole, they would need to get back exactly what they deposited. 1 BTC in? 1 BTC out.
  - philipov 3y ago
    When you invest in monopoly money where the main feature is eliminating institutional protections, don't be surprised that institutions refuse to protect the value you pretend it has. The US government has no obligation to recognize BTC as a measure of fungible value.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      Exactly this Fiduciary amounts are in $. Yes if you deposited 1 BTC expect the equivalent value at the time of your deposit
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        I feel like I'm experiencing whiplash. When it's convenient, crypto is unregulated and unprotected. But for this argument it is convenient to refer to it the matter as fiduciary, which implies trust, and declare that the only amount which matters is USD. You might expect to only get the USD equivalent back, but not for one minute does that make you whole. A lot of money was in fact stolen.
michael1999 3y ago
Maybe had already internalized the idea that money "invested" in crypto is doomed to theft, or collapse. Slot machine players have a similar vibe -- the money is already gone, even before it enters the machine.
skaag 3y ago
I'm an indirect victim via BlockFi (headed by Zach Prince), which did business with FTX and lost my money as a result. I held 33 ETH in a BlockFi BIA account, and only recently got 4 ETH back. I don't know if I will ever recover the rest of my funds. I don't know what your financial situation is but I'm not rich, and it is extremely painful to look at ETH trading at above $3000 and realizing my rainy day fund has been stolen by criminal nincompoops. My personal values dictate that I be significantly more careful with money when it is someone else's money. Even if you gave me $20 to get you a Burrito, I'll get you the best deal, tip the minimum, and give you your exact change. I'd even give you a few cents more just in case because I don't want to be owing you anything. So when a group of people behaves irresponsibly with people's money it boils my blood. He deserves every jail year he got, just on the hubris alone.
- shookthrowaway 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - noncoml 3y ago
    1. You don’t know at what price they got the ETH 2. Median doesn’t work that well here. They may not live in a median American town. You are probably uber rich in comparison to the median Earthling
  - triceratops 3y ago
    > The median American in the 45–54 age bracket has merely seven thousand dollars more saved for retirement than you had thrown into crypto. You should take those headlines with a grain of salt because they grossly misrepresent the studies they are reporting on. Quoting directly from your article: "The median 401(k) balance is just $35,345." Most people who have a 401(k) work at more than one company in their career and rarely roll funds over into the new company's 401(k). It's more common to leave it or roll it into an IRA. All we know is the median 401(k) account balance at Vanguard is $35k. Vanguard doesn't know about these people's other retirement accounts at Fidelity or Schwab or wherever. If their customers hold IRAs at Vanguard, those aren't accounted for. In the case that a person has multiple 401(k) accounts with Vanguard, it wasn't even clear if the account balances are summed together and counted as one account. tl;dr These reports are always about average and median retirement account balances, which is not at all the same as average and median retirement savings.
KenArrari 3y ago
A mugger is less likely to be deterred by fear of punishments. It usually comes from desperation and impulsiveness, it's not like they've carefully weighed their chances of being caught. SBF probably thought "If I get away with this I get a billion dollars and if I don't I just get a slap on the wrist and go back to normal life". I think not letting anger factor into it is good, but we also have to make sure the deterrence is there to prevent the inevitable future SBF.
complianceowl 3y ago
[flagged]
nemo44x 3y ago
> Should I feel vindictive? Or is it healthy to forget about it and move on? I'm not sure. However you feel about it is the right way to feel about it. Everyone copes with things differently. Regardless, it would appear some type of justice has been done in this case.
miduil 3y ago
It's a bit of a different scale/topic, but I found the discourse here quite insightful. It talks about the method "Restorative Justice" by going through a concrete example where this was lacking. Really heartwarming to listen to. https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/how-to-make-amends/ https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/how-to-make-amends/
- coryrc 3y ago
  "Restorative Justice" is more bullying from authorities and taking time from the victim. From your link: "Victims may help decide on the punishment for the person who harm them. They often get answers and an apology. Offenders might receive reduced sentences." -- how about increased sentences because of how the victim feels? No, it's all about going easier on offenders. All the authorities involved are pushing victims to "go easy" on offenders aka bullying, victimizing them once again. Someone, not a thief, hopefully filled the seat in the master's program Donovan was eligible for.
  - smcin 3y ago
    Restorative Justice means different things in different [US] states and counties, for different types of crime, it depends on whether the state's attitude to felony convictions and expungement is medieval or not (like in FL, KY), and the wide discretion prosecutors have to charge/plead something as a felony, misdemeanor or not to charge at all, plus the discretion police have on what to arrest for. And especially, it depends on the DA, who is an elected official: * That HiddenBrain story was about a VA conviction for felony grand larceny for stealing a bike whose value exceeded the grand larceny threshold ($1000). In that case the victim (an English guy who supported the UK equivalent) emphatically did consent to restorative justice approach and expected a non-custodial conviction could be quickly expunged, but the VA system doesn't work that way. So all his intervention effectively did was spare jail time to the thief, but not all the other consequences. * Compare to the 2021 Oakland, CA gang-related freeway shooting death of 23mo toddler Jasper Wu [0] in a rolling gunbattle between two rival gangs (one of them using an AR-15) on highway I-880 at 2:07pm in the afternoon, Wu was hit in the head by a stray 7.62mm rifle bullet in the rear of his mother's car. Three accused were charged with murder (one since had charges dropped), but then 4/2023 [1], new incoming DA Pamela Price, in the name of restorative justice, wrote an internal memo of her intention to "bring balance back to sentencing and reduce recidivism"- by not allowing prosecutors to "file or require defendants plead to sentencing enhancements." Not adding the special circumstances charge would drastically reduce any likely sentences, and exclude a life sentence (Price points out that she did add the gang-enhancer, but not the special circumstances charge) [3]. The victim's family were not consulted before Price's decision, and objected. [2] Price sent a series of emails to members of the Asian American community and county supervisors. In one, she claims "certain vocal members of the local Chinese community and media including reporter Dion Lim... misled the public." In another email one week later, Price addresses "Chinese communities" calling many "misinformed" and blamed [them] for "spreading misinformation." The matter is pretty politically divisive in the East Bay [3]. DA Price refuses to budge on this and there is currently in 2024 a major recall effort against her [4]. These two cases are pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum to each other. They also show how politicized the actions of an elected DA can be, depending on the mood of the electorate that put them in office. They also show that DAs can completely disregard the victim's/family's wishes. [0]: ABC7News 12/2022: Jasper Wu case timeline: A 13-month investigation into Oakland freeway shooting death of toddler https://abc7news.com/jasper-wu-oakland-freeway-shooting-toddler-killed-in-arrests-case/12580784/ https://abc7news.com/jasper-wu-oakland-freeway-shooting-todd... [1]: 3/2023 Jasper Wu's family voices concerns over murder suspects' possible shorter sentences https://abc7news.com/jasper-wu-alameda-county-district-attorney-enhancement-policy-update-oakland-freeway-shooting/12926535/ https://abc7news.com/jasper-wu-alameda-county-district-attor... [2]: 4/2023 After meeting with DA Price, Jasper Wu's family is still worried they won't get 'justice' https://abc7news.com/alameda-county-district-attorney-pamela-price-jasper-wu-delonzo-logwood/13100531/ https://abc7news.com/alameda-county-district-attorney-pamela... [3]: 6/2023 Jasper Wu case: murder suspects appear in court, charges reduced in toddler's slaying https://www.ktvu.com/news/jasper-wu-case-murder-suspects-appear-in-court-charges-reduced-in-toddlers-slaying https://www.ktvu.com/news/jasper-wu-case-murder-suspects-app... [4[: Alameda County DA Pamela Price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Price
decremental 3y ago
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kstrauser 3y ago
It’s ok and normal to feel both. If I lost tens of thousands of dollars, I’d be thinking of how much that would affect either the timing or the quality of my retirement. That would tend to make me inclined toward feeling pretty damn vindictive. And yet, the damage is done. Feels of anger and vengeance are withdrawals from your balance of available happiness and they don’t actually affect the end result. The money’s gone. Mourn it, accept it, and move on. I’d totally forgive anyone for wishing bad things on him if he destroyed their investment. It’s better to forgive, but sometimes that’s asking a bit much.
- fragmede 3y ago
  > The money’s gone. Hilariously with crypto, that's not necessarily true, for better or worse. The change in valuation of underlying crypto assets means that customers can sometimes be made "whole" - meaning they get back the value in USD they put in, but not including inflation and interest, so they're still poorer than they would be, but at least not out the whole amount. It's still not resolved, but it's possible creditors in Mt Gox will be made whole. 1 BTC was worth $760 when Mt Gox went down. Today 1 BTC is around $70k, meaning they have almost $10 billion in BTC with which to pay back creditors.
dheera 3y ago
Honestly I feel more vindictive toward the IRS and CA FTB who steal way, way, way more of my money and don't do anything useful with it. I still get cars smashed and I don't have free healthcare or high-speed rail. SBF's crime is a lot smaller in comparison.
jmspring 3y ago
For me, I don't think I feel the same way as you (my loss was small). There have been many cases where white collar crime which has similar (or greater) financial ramifications as the example of mugging you give, but the punishment is generally significantly lower (if at all). Granted a mugging could have differing levels of direct emotional impact, but white collar crime generally ends in lighter sentences. SBF and Elizabeth Holmes deserve their sentences.
- anonymoose33282 3y ago
  I think “violence” is at times such a silly measuring stick for modern justice. Instead, we should see it as lost/ruined human potential. What is worse, violently robbing one bank of $10k, or “peacefully” robbing a massive number of people for billions of dollars? I sure as hell know what I think, and it’s absolutely not in line with SBF’s sentence. He should rot in Ryker’s with people who have, unfortunately, done less harm but still found their way there.
  - jmspring 3y ago
    25 years will be enough to where he’s doing time, wish it was more. Sadly his parents have enough cushion to where he won’t have to work when he is out. Many people are in prison for doing less harm and for longer sentences than many white collar criminals.
  - calvinmorrison 3y ago
    similarly, more assets are seized by the police through asset forfeiture compared to total dollars stolen through theft. Scammers deal many times the damage economically than shady car sales man
ekms 3y ago
Did you get paid back yet? From what I read the ftx estate claimed to be able to make all claimants whole
- ekms 3y ago
  Hm, not sure why people are downvoting this ^ Here's a source: https://www.wired.com/story/ftx-bankruptcy-bitcoin-value/ https://www.wired.com/story/ftx-bankruptcy-bitcoin-value/
deleted 3y ago
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thenoblesunfish 3y ago
Maybe on some level you felt that the risk of this kind of thing was part of the investment decision? Presumably this was high risk, high return sort of stuff. As others say, the mugger is threatening you physically - SBF just cheated (I assume, haven't read the details) at a game, wild west new types of badly regulated investments.
dfxm12 3y ago
You should feel how you want to feel. However, I think certain politicians and most mass media outlets push you to have more compassion for white collar criminals and to think of others as less than human. When you hear them talk/print "tough on crime", they never seem to include white collar criminals in that. When the current admin expanded the IRS enforcement, they pushed back. It's no surprise. After all, these politicians and the owners of such outlets are likely to be a little guilty of ripping people off a few thousand here and there as well...
goalonetwo 3y ago
As someone who lost a little bit through this whole debacle I think it is because we willingly gave our money to FTX. We wanted to believe in this story that was too good to be true. We got fooled and we are slightly ashamed. When you get mugged you have no choice on what is happening. The actions are being forced physically on you. With FTX We chose to go that way so it somehow feels like we are as much to blame as SBF (and to be honest, we are).
- harambae 3y ago
  “You can’t cheat an honest man” as the expression goes. Not literally true - completely innocent people do get victimized - but there’s certainly a reason for the expression.
  - StressedDev 3y ago
    This response is not helpful and I know of honest people who have been cheated. Basically, the response boils down to “if you got cheated, you are dishonest and deserved it”. Bullshit.
    - acdha 3y ago
      In this case, it’s somewhat more fair: everyone involved was trying to find much higher returns than they could get in regulated financial markets so while it’s sad that they were defrauded it’s also part of the risk they voluntarily took on by using cryptocurrency.
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
        A lot of folks keep making that argument. What it sounds like you're saying is that Average Joe should really understand that crypto implicitly carries a risk of fraud and you are likely to lose your money. We should shout that from the rooftops. If you deposit BTC/whatever with someone, they are probably going to steal it. When they do, we will remind you that this was a foreseeable outcome. I'm starting to think that these organizations need to be regulated as banks, stat.
jmyeet 3y ago
Sorry for your loss. I'm actually surprised the sentence is this low. This is Bernie Madoff territory. This doesn't get you your money back. It doesn't even necessarily make you feel better so what's the point? This gets into the philosophy of a criminal justice system. The noble idea behind the criminal justice system is to be restorative. The offender is to be reformed so they don't repeat their crimes and can become productive members of society. This is why we push for things like education in prison, access to mental health treatment and so on. It's for our collective good. Unfortunately, the criminal justice system in the US is predominantly retributive. We punish to make ourselves feel better. There is a ton of evidence of this and it lays bare other societal issues (eg racial disparity in sentencing). One big argument is whether heavy sentences prevent others from committing crimes. This has been used to justify, for example, three strikes laws and 10+ year sentences for mere drug possession at the height of the war on drugs. None of this works. Such crimes are the result of over-policing, up-charging by prosecutors and material conditions. But where it actually works is with rich people. Why? Because you fine a company or a rich person and that becomes the cost of doing business. It's factored in. But depriving the wealthy of their liberty is something the wealthy want to desperately avoid. Case in point: the Sackler family, who are hugely responsible for the opiod epidemic by knowingly lying about the addictiveness of Oxycontin. If I had my way, the Sacklers would have every asset they own seized and they would all spend the rest of their lives in a prison cell. Put SBF's sentence in context: this Californian man was sentenced to 10 years for carjacking and robbing a gas station with a BB gun [1]. That's roughly half of SBF's sentence. Who do you think has done more societal harm? [1]: https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/los-angeles-man-sentenced-10-years-federal-prison-crime-spree-which-he-used-bb-gun-rob https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/los-angeles-man-sentenc...
- datavirtue 3y ago
  The point of the system is to remove threats from society. It should be long enough such that the person will never pose a threat to society again. Justice was served in this case.
  - tomcar288 3y ago
    i don't why this is downvoted. it seems pretty logical to me. if someone commits a crime and then goes to jail, they can't commit the crime again, right?
Lance_ET_Compte 3y ago
We see this among political figures that swindle hundreds of millions, fail to pay taxes, etc. over and over again. They are granted absolution and even admired. Someone who steals food does time in jail.
dkarras 3y ago
It is probably because there is a difference between getting mugged and being scammed. With falling victim to SBF's scheme, you probably believe you are partly to blame and you had to face that fact yourself, did some work on it mentally at the very least in the background. Him getting punished does not make a difference, you probably punished yourself and that is what mattered. With a violent mugging encounter, you are blameless, so you need to see the other party get punished to process and to feel that the world will get slightly better / safer with the delivery of the punishment.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I don't think this really tracks. > With a violent mugging encounter, you are blameless I was mugged a decade or so ago, and while I was certainly angry with the people who mugged me, I also punished myself a bit: I shouldn't have been walking down that particular street at 2am; I'd had a bit to drink and should have called a car. Or I should have been paying more attention to my surroundings; maybe I would have seen them early enough to get away, etc. The point isn't whether or not the thoughts I had were rational. I don't think the type of crime matters; victims always have plenty of room to assign some blame to themselves, or at least second-guess their actions.
forgotmyinfo 3y ago
[flagged]
m463 3y ago
I believe the justice system correlates with your feelings. wrt outcome, it seems physical crimes are almost inconsequential in monetary damage compared to "white collar" crimes I can't help but think of that clint eastwood line: "It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have." I think physical damage, and also the psychological damage of violence has a permanence compared to money and property "damage"... Not to make light of anything, but you can always get more stuff. (and over my lifetime I've noticed stuff has been easier to get)
- kelnos 3y ago
  > you can always get more stuff. I think there are millions of poor people in the world who would very much disagree with that statement. But I'd hope they'd still agree that their stuff isn't worth their lives.
x86x87 3y ago
which one would make you more angry: 1) being mugged in full daylight in an area with low crime rate (maybe near where you live) 2) being mugged walking in a dark alley somewhere in the "bad" part of the town? How about if you chose going to 2) knowing very well that muggings are a real possibility and you should probably not go there?
diamondfist25 3y ago
I lost hundreds of thousands of dollars with this guy. I was hateful when this whole thing was unwinding. Now I’m indifferent — I just hope John Ray can make the customers whole
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
cdchn 3y ago
I think there is a lot of feeling of "I gambled with funny money and lost. Thats the game."
Zpalmtree 3y ago
No you shouldn't feel vindictive because ultimately you lost funds by your own bad decisions, not Sam's
redox99 3y ago
If you get mugged, you feel it was outside your control. If you get scammed, you feel it was partly your fault that you were fooled.
- roguas 3y ago
  or internet consortium of financial advisor will tell you: it is a bit of your own fault, you should always diversify
- PlunderBunny 3y ago
  After a new-years eve terrorist attack in Europe a few years ago, a former colleague (who was in a different country) told me she “would now never go to a public space for a new year celebration”. But she drove a car to and from work every week day. We over estimate the risk of things we have no control over, but as soon as we have even a little bit of control, we underestimate the risk.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
A mugger would have traumatized you. You can't put a price on [the lack of] trauma. The harm you received was mostly financial, so the healthy way to recover is also mostly financial.
m3kw9 3y ago
Because is remote/digital vs physical, much less/more visceral
nvy 3y ago
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irishloop 3y ago
No, you "shouldn't" feel vindictive. Vengeance doesn't really help anybody. We are all wronged, and we all wrong others. None of us is perfect. Some are worse than others, and we have laws, and punishments, etc. But I believe there is no morality to seeking pain in others; even if you believe they deserve it. It will not raise you up, so to speak.
Repulsion9513 3y ago
Because it wasn't personal or individualized. You'd probably also be more vengeful if it was someone who had stolen your credit cards (or identity). The same reason why the bigger the company, the more the public lets them get away with.
WhrRTheBaboons 3y ago
revenge is a sword without a handle. it also hurts the wielder it might not be "fair", but forgiveness is healthier for you
barfbagginus 3y ago
Did you learn your lesson to stay off of the crypto? If not, then that's why you feel nothing. It's part of your continued denial that crypto is pure evil. What's it going to cost you to ditch it, do you think? Another ten grand? More? I'm curious

paulpauper 3y ago

maybe tens of thousands of dollars was not that much relative to your net worth. some people lost it all

ShamelessC 3y ago

It is _obviously_ healthy to forget about it and move on. Having said that, any anger at the guy is going to be not because he effected any one person, but because he effected so many - and because he embodied a particular attitude in the cryptocurrency world that lives on in so many others who haven't yet had their luck run out.

bdcravens 3y ago

Perhaps previous exit scams in the crypto space dulled your senses? If anything, I feel like you should share your story to protect others, especially during times when crypto is peaking (like now) and others are tempted to jump in: use exchanges to buy/sell and get out, store your keys on a cold storage device, and transfer out fiat ASAP.

CivBase 3y ago
Surely the better takeaway is to just not bet on crypto in general? It's supposed to act like a currency, not a stock. So long as people keep feeding into these pump-and-dump schemes they'll keep happening. Money doesn't come from nowhere. For every dollar you make on crypto, somone loses a dollar. All these BS coins do is shuffle wealth from the unlucky gamblers to the lucky ones. Go spend your money at a casino instead.
- fragmede 3y ago
  > For every dollar you make on crypto, somone loses a dollar. If that's not true of the stock market, why would that be true of crypto?
  - CivBase 3y ago
    This is oversimplifying, but stocks are essentially purchasing a stake in ownership of the company. The company uses that money to advance its mission - ideally generating more profits which are shared with the stockholders (dividends). It's that stake in ownership and expected dividends that give stocks inherent value. There is no company behind crypto currencies that holders get ownership of. There is no product or service to drive profits. There are no dividends, voting power, or anything that gives inherent value to the coins. It's all pure speculation. Just money getting shifted around among the holders - with exchanges taking a cut off the top of each transaction.
    - fragmede 3y ago
      I'm sorry, but what am going to do with my Class C shares of Google which have no voting rights? They also haven't paid dividends. My buying of them didn't give Google any money, either. My infinitesimal ownership in Google doesn't get anything other than it's a number in a database somewhere that hopefully goes up. There's underlying assets there, sure, but as we've seen with GME, TSLA, and now NVDA, it's all just vibes. In this case though, FTX had their own token FTT that gave people that owned it voting rights in FTX and "staking rewards" aka dividends. It's not worth anything today due to the fraud that SBF perpetrated, but that sure smells a awful lot like a stock to me.
      - hgomersall 3y ago
        Right. There seems to be a real aversion to accepting that trading shares is really just middle class gambling.
        methodical 3y ago
forgotmyinfo 3y ago
If it isn't obvious already that cryptocurrency is one giant grift, then I don't know how many more stories are going to help. The SEC or Congress or someone with power needs to just make it illegal, or else this kind of thing will keep happening. It happened before we got our shit together in the early 20th century, but we collectively realized markets were actively doing shady things, and then we legislated to fix things. Will we do it again?

chanamasala 3y ago

[flagged]

ragazzina 3y ago

It is funny - especially when you consider a mugger on the street would need your money much more than SBF ever would.

blululu 3y ago
Not really. The use of a gun/knife/lethal force implies a much different risk profile (you could easily die or be crippled for life). It's not about the money - it's about the violence.
- xmprt 3y ago
  That's a fair point. With FTX you might feel some sense of responsibility because you voluntarily gave up your money (whether it was fraud by deception or not). But a mugger is infringing on your freedom to walk around at night.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- umeshunni 3y ago
  Yeah, in one case, a few numbers in a database somewhere changed. In the other, you could be left for dead in an alley in Oakland.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    > a few numbers in a database somewhere changed That is very crass. Tell that to someone who lost a big chunk of their savings. "Just numbers in a database" indeed.
    - acdha 3y ago
      If someone put a big chunk of their savings into a speculative vehicle, they should be having a moment of contemplation about why they ignored basic investment advice. It’s not a happy moment for anyone but at some point you do have to take responsibility for your decisions.

rsoto2 3y ago

Mugging is more traumatic short term? In total, white collar wage-theft dwarfs property theft but you may not feel its effects immediately.

flockonus 3y ago

It's good to process the emotions associated, if truly is none, then great! Still suggest meditating if something didn't get pushed under the mind's rug with the financial loss. Definitely move on, this case had some external closure where most hurts in life don't.

micromacrofoot 3y ago

Mugging is much more violent and personal. SBF didn't see you and think "that's the person I'm going to get" he essentially created a fraud machine that you and hundreds of others got caught up in. Very impersonal.

phone8675309 3y ago
But no less financially destructive

freedomben 3y ago

Purely speculation on my part, but I tend to feel similarly, and I think the reason is that the mugger includes a physical threat of violence. Evolutionarily, the emergence of an economy with capital at modern-day scales are so new that we haven't had time to really adjust emotionally. It kind of reminds me of the various birds on previously untouched-by-humanity islands that had no fear of humans and would just sit there and allow a human to club them to death, until their species went extinct. They had no time evolutionarily to develop an innate (emotional) fear of humans. Physical violence/robbery on the other hand is a long-standing human tradition, and something we are hardwired to react to emotionally (Amygdala vs. PFC, etc). We can of course override our Amygdalas with our PFCs to some extent (in the medium to long-term), but the "gut reaction" core is still there. Another possible reason (for me at least) is that ethically I have a lot of inner turmoil over violent punishments (which physical incarceration absolutely is IMHO) for nonviolent crimes. Of course reality is much more grayscale than that given that crimes like SBFs could leave a family destitute and starving, which is violence-adjacent if not outrightly violent. A violent sentence for a violent crime intuitively feels a lot more "let the punishment fit the crime" than a violent sentence for a nonviolent crime. Anyway, I don't have answers, but throwing some speculation onto the pile.

bgitarts 3y ago
I had a business partner/family member steal money from me in our business. It very much hurt and was a painful experience hoping for vengence. Perhaps SBF being distant from you is what makes you indifferent.
- nerpderp82 3y ago
  This is the pain of losing trust and getting taken advantage of by someone that is close to you.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Yes that's fair criticism regarding my feelings, but GP feels the same and they had stolen $10K. So the distance from it can't be all there is to it. I'm also pretty distant from a mugging that might happen today, but I find myself getting angry about it, so that also seems to contradict the theory that it's about distance (though to be clear, I largely agree with you and I suspect distance is going to be a factor for most or maybe the vast majority of people).

__loam 3y ago

I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done.

freedomben 3y ago
> I didn't lose a penny and I'm giddy about it. Justice has been done. How can you be giddy about a human being locked in a cage for 25 years? Would you be giddy if he were being flogged, or hanged? As long as there has been recording, flogging and hangings were common punishments and usually defended as "justice has been done." Incarceration really isn't far from medieval punishments. I'm by no means suggesting that nothing should be done, and maybe 25 years in prison is a just sentence (that's debatable, but for moving forward let's assume it is), but it still leaves me with a sick feeling. I just can't relate whatsoever with feeling "giddy" over it.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  Many people see justice served as a win for society, a reason to be hopeful that the future will be better. One life out of billions is valuable only to that person and their immediately family, it would be odd to feel sick over someone else getting punished for defrauding so many others of their life savings.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    > it would be odd to feel sick over someone else getting punished for defrauding so many others of their life savings. that's a pretty extreme strawman of my position. Don't you think there's some spectrum between 25 years of prison time and no punishment? And if you don't, then how would you feel about flogging or hanging as I mentioned above? Does it seem odd to you for someone to feel sick about a public hanging in the town square, even if the person is guilty of the crime?
    - adolph 3y ago
      > some spectrum between 25 years of prison time and no punishment That isn’t the range at hand. SBF got something between what prosecutor and defender asked and much lower than theoretical max. Max: 110y Procecutor: 40-50y Defender: 6.5y Actual: 25y

anonu 3y ago

Are you expecting to recover any money from this? I understood everyone would be made whole at some point.

rootusrootus 3y ago
> I understood everyone would be made whole at some point That is only true if you define 'made whole' as giving back each customer the amount of money denominated in USD that they deposited with FTX. That is super convenient for FTX, which has benefited from the spike in BTC value, but not for the customer. To really be made whole, they would need to get back exactly what they deposited. 1 BTC in? 1 BTC out.
- philipov 3y ago
  When you invest in monopoly money where the main feature is eliminating institutional protections, don't be surprised that institutions refuse to protect the value you pretend it has. The US government has no obligation to recognize BTC as a measure of fungible value.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    Exactly this Fiduciary amounts are in $. Yes if you deposited 1 BTC expect the equivalent value at the time of your deposit
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      I feel like I'm experiencing whiplash. When it's convenient, crypto is unregulated and unprotected. But for this argument it is convenient to refer to it the matter as fiduciary, which implies trust, and declare that the only amount which matters is USD. You might expect to only get the USD equivalent back, but not for one minute does that make you whole. A lot of money was in fact stolen.

michael1999 3y ago

Maybe had already internalized the idea that money "invested" in crypto is doomed to theft, or collapse. Slot machine players have a similar vibe -- the money is already gone, even before it enters the machine.

skaag 3y ago

I'm an indirect victim via BlockFi (headed by Zach Prince), which did business with FTX and lost my money as a result. I held 33 ETH in a BlockFi BIA account, and only recently got 4 ETH back. I don't know if I will ever recover the rest of my funds. I don't know what your financial situation is but I'm not rich, and it is extremely painful to look at ETH trading at above $3000 and realizing my rainy day fund has been stolen by criminal nincompoops. My personal values dictate that I be significantly more careful with money when it is someone else's money. Even if you gave me $20 to get you a Burrito, I'll get you the best deal, tip the minimum, and give you your exact change. I'd even give you a few cents more just in case because I don't want to be owing you anything. So when a group of people behaves irresponsibly with people's money it boils my blood. He deserves every jail year he got, just on the hubris alone.

shookthrowaway 3y ago
[flagged]
- noncoml 3y ago
  1. You don’t know at what price they got the ETH 2. Median doesn’t work that well here. They may not live in a median American town. You are probably uber rich in comparison to the median Earthling
- triceratops 3y ago
  > The median American in the 45–54 age bracket has merely seven thousand dollars more saved for retirement than you had thrown into crypto. You should take those headlines with a grain of salt because they grossly misrepresent the studies they are reporting on. Quoting directly from your article: "The median 401(k) balance is just $35,345." Most people who have a 401(k) work at more than one company in their career and rarely roll funds over into the new company's 401(k). It's more common to leave it or roll it into an IRA. All we know is the median 401(k) account balance at Vanguard is $35k. Vanguard doesn't know about these people's other retirement accounts at Fidelity or Schwab or wherever. If their customers hold IRAs at Vanguard, those aren't accounted for. In the case that a person has multiple 401(k) accounts with Vanguard, it wasn't even clear if the account balances are summed together and counted as one account. tl;dr These reports are always about average and median retirement account balances, which is not at all the same as average and median retirement savings.

KenArrari 3y ago

A mugger is less likely to be deterred by fear of punishments. It usually comes from desperation and impulsiveness, it's not like they've carefully weighed their chances of being caught. SBF probably thought "If I get away with this I get a billion dollars and if I don't I just get a slap on the wrist and go back to normal life". I think not letting anger factor into it is good, but we also have to make sure the deterrence is there to prevent the inevitable future SBF.

complianceowl 3y ago

[flagged]

nemo44x 3y ago

> Should I feel vindictive? Or is it healthy to forget about it and move on? I'm not sure. However you feel about it is the right way to feel about it. Everyone copes with things differently. Regardless, it would appear some type of justice has been done in this case.

miduil 3y ago

It's a bit of a different scale/topic, but I found the discourse here quite insightful. It talks about the method "Restorative Justice" by going through a concrete example where this was lacking. Really heartwarming to listen to. https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/how-to-make-amends/ https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/how-to-make-amends/

coryrc 3y ago
"Restorative Justice" is more bullying from authorities and taking time from the victim. From your link: "Victims may help decide on the punishment for the person who harm them. They often get answers and an apology. Offenders might receive reduced sentences." -- how about increased sentences because of how the victim feels? No, it's all about going easier on offenders. All the authorities involved are pushing victims to "go easy" on offenders aka bullying, victimizing them once again. Someone, not a thief, hopefully filled the seat in the master's program Donovan was eligible for.
- smcin 3y ago
  Restorative Justice means different things in different [US] states and counties, for different types of crime, it depends on whether the state's attitude to felony convictions and expungement is medieval or not (like in FL, KY), and the wide discretion prosecutors have to charge/plead something as a felony, misdemeanor or not to charge at all, plus the discretion police have on what to arrest for. And especially, it depends on the DA, who is an elected official: * That HiddenBrain story was about a VA conviction for felony grand larceny for stealing a bike whose value exceeded the grand larceny threshold ($1000). In that case the victim (an English guy who supported the UK equivalent) emphatically did consent to restorative justice approach and expected a non-custodial conviction could be quickly expunged, but the VA system doesn't work that way. So all his intervention effectively did was spare jail time to the thief, but not all the other consequences. * Compare to the 2021 Oakland, CA gang-related freeway shooting death of 23mo toddler Jasper Wu [0] in a rolling gunbattle between two rival gangs (one of them using an AR-15) on highway I-880 at 2:07pm in the afternoon, Wu was hit in the head by a stray 7.62mm rifle bullet in the rear of his mother's car. Three accused were charged with murder (one since had charges dropped), but then 4/2023 [1], new incoming DA Pamela Price, in the name of restorative justice, wrote an internal memo of her intention to "bring balance back to sentencing and reduce recidivism"- by not allowing prosecutors to "file or require defendants plead to sentencing enhancements." Not adding the special circumstances charge would drastically reduce any likely sentences, and exclude a life sentence (Price points out that she did add the gang-enhancer, but not the special circumstances charge) [3]. The victim's family were not consulted before Price's decision, and objected. [2] Price sent a series of emails to members of the Asian American community and county supervisors. In one, she claims "certain vocal members of the local Chinese community and media including reporter Dion Lim... misled the public." In another email one week later, Price addresses "Chinese communities" calling many "misinformed" and blamed [them] for "spreading misinformation." The matter is pretty politically divisive in the East Bay [3]. DA Price refuses to budge on this and there is currently in 2024 a major recall effort against her [4]. These two cases are pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum to each other. They also show how politicized the actions of an elected DA can be, depending on the mood of the electorate that put them in office. They also show that DAs can completely disregard the victim's/family's wishes. [0]: ABC7News 12/2022: Jasper Wu case timeline: A 13-month investigation into Oakland freeway shooting death of toddler https://abc7news.com/jasper-wu-oakland-freeway-shooting-toddler-killed-in-arrests-case/12580784/ https://abc7news.com/jasper-wu-oakland-freeway-shooting-todd... [1]: 3/2023 Jasper Wu's family voices concerns over murder suspects' possible shorter sentences https://abc7news.com/jasper-wu-alameda-county-district-attorney-enhancement-policy-update-oakland-freeway-shooting/12926535/ https://abc7news.com/jasper-wu-alameda-county-district-attor... [2]: 4/2023 After meeting with DA Price, Jasper Wu's family is still worried they won't get 'justice' https://abc7news.com/alameda-county-district-attorney-pamela-price-jasper-wu-delonzo-logwood/13100531/ https://abc7news.com/alameda-county-district-attorney-pamela... [3]: 6/2023 Jasper Wu case: murder suspects appear in court, charges reduced in toddler's slaying https://www.ktvu.com/news/jasper-wu-case-murder-suspects-appear-in-court-charges-reduced-in-toddlers-slaying https://www.ktvu.com/news/jasper-wu-case-murder-suspects-app... [4[: Alameda County DA Pamela Price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Price

decremental 3y ago

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kstrauser 3y ago

It’s ok and normal to feel both. If I lost tens of thousands of dollars, I’d be thinking of how much that would affect either the timing or the quality of my retirement. That would tend to make me inclined toward feeling pretty damn vindictive. And yet, the damage is done. Feels of anger and vengeance are withdrawals from your balance of available happiness and they don’t actually affect the end result. The money’s gone. Mourn it, accept it, and move on. I’d totally forgive anyone for wishing bad things on him if he destroyed their investment. It’s better to forgive, but sometimes that’s asking a bit much.

fragmede 3y ago
> The money’s gone. Hilariously with crypto, that's not necessarily true, for better or worse. The change in valuation of underlying crypto assets means that customers can sometimes be made "whole" - meaning they get back the value in USD they put in, but not including inflation and interest, so they're still poorer than they would be, but at least not out the whole amount. It's still not resolved, but it's possible creditors in Mt Gox will be made whole. 1 BTC was worth $760 when Mt Gox went down. Today 1 BTC is around $70k, meaning they have almost $10 billion in BTC with which to pay back creditors.

dheera 3y ago

Honestly I feel more vindictive toward the IRS and CA FTB who steal way, way, way more of my money and don't do anything useful with it. I still get cars smashed and I don't have free healthcare or high-speed rail. SBF's crime is a lot smaller in comparison.

jmspring 3y ago

For me, I don't think I feel the same way as you (my loss was small). There have been many cases where white collar crime which has similar (or greater) financial ramifications as the example of mugging you give, but the punishment is generally significantly lower (if at all). Granted a mugging could have differing levels of direct emotional impact, but white collar crime generally ends in lighter sentences. SBF and Elizabeth Holmes deserve their sentences.

anonymoose33282 3y ago
I think “violence” is at times such a silly measuring stick for modern justice. Instead, we should see it as lost/ruined human potential. What is worse, violently robbing one bank of $10k, or “peacefully” robbing a massive number of people for billions of dollars? I sure as hell know what I think, and it’s absolutely not in line with SBF’s sentence. He should rot in Ryker’s with people who have, unfortunately, done less harm but still found their way there.
- jmspring 3y ago
  25 years will be enough to where he’s doing time, wish it was more. Sadly his parents have enough cushion to where he won’t have to work when he is out. Many people are in prison for doing less harm and for longer sentences than many white collar criminals.
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  similarly, more assets are seized by the police through asset forfeiture compared to total dollars stolen through theft. Scammers deal many times the damage economically than shady car sales man

ekms 3y ago

Did you get paid back yet? From what I read the ftx estate claimed to be able to make all claimants whole

ekms 3y ago
Hm, not sure why people are downvoting this ^ Here's a source: https://www.wired.com/story/ftx-bankruptcy-bitcoin-value/ https://www.wired.com/story/ftx-bankruptcy-bitcoin-value/

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

thenoblesunfish 3y ago

Maybe on some level you felt that the risk of this kind of thing was part of the investment decision? Presumably this was high risk, high return sort of stuff. As others say, the mugger is threatening you physically - SBF just cheated (I assume, haven't read the details) at a game, wild west new types of badly regulated investments.

dfxm12 3y ago

You should feel how you want to feel. However, I think certain politicians and most mass media outlets push you to have more compassion for white collar criminals and to think of others as less than human. When you hear them talk/print "tough on crime", they never seem to include white collar criminals in that. When the current admin expanded the IRS enforcement, they pushed back. It's no surprise. After all, these politicians and the owners of such outlets are likely to be a little guilty of ripping people off a few thousand here and there as well...

goalonetwo 3y ago

As someone who lost a little bit through this whole debacle I think it is because we willingly gave our money to FTX. We wanted to believe in this story that was too good to be true. We got fooled and we are slightly ashamed. When you get mugged you have no choice on what is happening. The actions are being forced physically on you. With FTX We chose to go that way so it somehow feels like we are as much to blame as SBF (and to be honest, we are).

harambae 3y ago
“You can’t cheat an honest man” as the expression goes. Not literally true - completely innocent people do get victimized - but there’s certainly a reason for the expression.
- StressedDev 3y ago
  This response is not helpful and I know of honest people who have been cheated. Basically, the response boils down to “if you got cheated, you are dishonest and deserved it”. Bullshit.
  - acdha 3y ago
    In this case, it’s somewhat more fair: everyone involved was trying to find much higher returns than they could get in regulated financial markets so while it’s sad that they were defrauded it’s also part of the risk they voluntarily took on by using cryptocurrency.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      A lot of folks keep making that argument. What it sounds like you're saying is that Average Joe should really understand that crypto implicitly carries a risk of fraud and you are likely to lose your money. We should shout that from the rooftops. If you deposit BTC/whatever with someone, they are probably going to steal it. When they do, we will remind you that this was a foreseeable outcome. I'm starting to think that these organizations need to be regulated as banks, stat.

jmyeet 3y ago

Sorry for your loss. I'm actually surprised the sentence is this low. This is Bernie Madoff territory. This doesn't get you your money back. It doesn't even necessarily make you feel better so what's the point? This gets into the philosophy of a criminal justice system. The noble idea behind the criminal justice system is to be restorative. The offender is to be reformed so they don't repeat their crimes and can become productive members of society. This is why we push for things like education in prison, access to mental health treatment and so on. It's for our collective good. Unfortunately, the criminal justice system in the US is predominantly retributive. We punish to make ourselves feel better. There is a ton of evidence of this and it lays bare other societal issues (eg racial disparity in sentencing). One big argument is whether heavy sentences prevent others from committing crimes. This has been used to justify, for example, three strikes laws and 10+ year sentences for mere drug possession at the height of the war on drugs. None of this works. Such crimes are the result of over-policing, up-charging by prosecutors and material conditions. But where it actually works is with rich people. Why? Because you fine a company or a rich person and that becomes the cost of doing business. It's factored in. But depriving the wealthy of their liberty is something the wealthy want to desperately avoid. Case in point: the Sackler family, who are hugely responsible for the opiod epidemic by knowingly lying about the addictiveness of Oxycontin. If I had my way, the Sacklers would have every asset they own seized and they would all spend the rest of their lives in a prison cell. Put SBF's sentence in context: this Californian man was sentenced to 10 years for carjacking and robbing a gas station with a BB gun [1]. That's roughly half of SBF's sentence. Who do you think has done more societal harm? [1]: https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/los-angeles-man-sentenced-10-years-federal-prison-crime-spree-which-he-used-bb-gun-rob https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/los-angeles-man-sentenc...

datavirtue 3y ago
The point of the system is to remove threats from society. It should be long enough such that the person will never pose a threat to society again. Justice was served in this case.
- tomcar288 3y ago
  i don't why this is downvoted. it seems pretty logical to me. if someone commits a crime and then goes to jail, they can't commit the crime again, right?

Lance_ET_Compte 3y ago

We see this among political figures that swindle hundreds of millions, fail to pay taxes, etc. over and over again. They are granted absolution and even admired. Someone who steals food does time in jail.

dkarras 3y ago

It is probably because there is a difference between getting mugged and being scammed. With falling victim to SBF's scheme, you probably believe you are partly to blame and you had to face that fact yourself, did some work on it mentally at the very least in the background. Him getting punished does not make a difference, you probably punished yourself and that is what mattered. With a violent mugging encounter, you are blameless, so you need to see the other party get punished to process and to feel that the world will get slightly better / safer with the delivery of the punishment.

kelnos 3y ago
I don't think this really tracks. > With a violent mugging encounter, you are blameless I was mugged a decade or so ago, and while I was certainly angry with the people who mugged me, I also punished myself a bit: I shouldn't have been walking down that particular street at 2am; I'd had a bit to drink and should have called a car. Or I should have been paying more attention to my surroundings; maybe I would have seen them early enough to get away, etc. The point isn't whether or not the thoughts I had were rational. I don't think the type of crime matters; victims always have plenty of room to assign some blame to themselves, or at least second-guess their actions.

forgotmyinfo 3y ago

[flagged]

m463 3y ago

I believe the justice system correlates with your feelings. wrt outcome, it seems physical crimes are almost inconsequential in monetary damage compared to "white collar" crimes I can't help but think of that clint eastwood line: "It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have." I think physical damage, and also the psychological damage of violence has a permanence compared to money and property "damage"... Not to make light of anything, but you can always get more stuff. (and over my lifetime I've noticed stuff has been easier to get)

kelnos 3y ago
> you can always get more stuff. I think there are millions of poor people in the world who would very much disagree with that statement. But I'd hope they'd still agree that their stuff isn't worth their lives.

x86x87 3y ago

which one would make you more angry: 1) being mugged in full daylight in an area with low crime rate (maybe near where you live) 2) being mugged walking in a dark alley somewhere in the "bad" part of the town? How about if you chose going to 2) knowing very well that muggings are a real possibility and you should probably not go there?

diamondfist25 3y ago

I lost hundreds of thousands of dollars with this guy. I was hateful when this whole thing was unwinding. Now I’m indifferent — I just hope John Ray can make the customers whole

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

cdchn 3y ago

I think there is a lot of feeling of "I gambled with funny money and lost. Thats the game."

Zpalmtree 3y ago

No you shouldn't feel vindictive because ultimately you lost funds by your own bad decisions, not Sam's

redox99 3y ago

If you get mugged, you feel it was outside your control. If you get scammed, you feel it was partly your fault that you were fooled.

roguas 3y ago
or internet consortium of financial advisor will tell you: it is a bit of your own fault, you should always diversify
PlunderBunny 3y ago
After a new-years eve terrorist attack in Europe a few years ago, a former colleague (who was in a different country) told me she “would now never go to a public space for a new year celebration”. But she drove a car to and from work every week day. We over estimate the risk of things we have no control over, but as soon as we have even a little bit of control, we underestimate the risk.

thomastjeffery 3y ago

A mugger would have traumatized you. You can't put a price on [the lack of] trauma. The harm you received was mostly financial, so the healthy way to recover is also mostly financial.

m3kw9 3y ago

Because is remote/digital vs physical, much less/more visceral

nvy 3y ago

[dead]

irishloop 3y ago

No, you "shouldn't" feel vindictive. Vengeance doesn't really help anybody. We are all wronged, and we all wrong others. None of us is perfect. Some are worse than others, and we have laws, and punishments, etc. But I believe there is no morality to seeking pain in others; even if you believe they deserve it. It will not raise you up, so to speak.

Repulsion9513 3y ago

Because it wasn't personal or individualized. You'd probably also be more vengeful if it was someone who had stolen your credit cards (or identity). The same reason why the bigger the company, the more the public lets them get away with.

WhrRTheBaboons 3y ago

revenge is a sword without a handle. it also hurts the wielder it might not be "fair", but forgiveness is healthier for you

barfbagginus 3y ago

Did you learn your lesson to stay off of the crypto? If not, then that's why you feel nothing. It's part of your continued denial that crypto is pure evil. What's it going to cost you to ditch it, do you think? Another ten grand? More? I'm curious