11 ms·

'Gen X has had to learn or die': Mid-career workers are facing ageism

65 points by BerislavLopac 3y ago

ImHereToVote 3y ago
The prisoners dilemma shows that everyone is incentivized against unions. Unions however, would solve this. You just need a mechanism to stop union cronyism.
- baq 3y ago
  Unions should be mandatory in any organization which has an HR department, regardless of whether its internal or outsourced.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    This is an interesting idea, but I think you need to clarify what "HR department" means here. Because companies will just get around this by calling HR something else, and I don't think it's practical for any serious company with employees to not have someone doing HR-adjacent duties.
    - baq 3y ago
      I'd leave that for the lawmakers and courts, not an expert. Same goes for the definition of "unions". The point is HR is always acting in the interest of the company first (if you're surprised, you're probably young and work at a tech megacorp) and if the interests of employees are aligned with these (again, usually the case at tech megacorps), all is fine and dandy. Unions are needed when those interests start to diverge as individual employees have basically zero negotiating power and it's in the interest of the company to exploit that to the maximum legally achievable level - pure game theory. IOW I see the perfect union as an HR-but-for-employees department. Real unions are obviously broken by individuals exploiting unions they're part of.
      - binary132 3y ago
        Clearly we just need an “HR on the side of the union” that manages the union member adversarially. :P
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > You just need a mechanism to stop union cronyism How?
  - ImHereToVote 3y ago
    More democracy in the leadership of the union.
- darby_eight 3y ago
  How are workers incentivized against unions? From my perspective there's little downside.
  - cpursley 3y ago
    Do you know much about the history of unions in the US and the monsters many of them became?
    - darby_eight 3y ago
      Unions have the same issues most organizations have, the same opportunity for dysfunction that all forms of hierarchy imply. Meanwhile the lack of collective leverage poses a real problem for my individual compensation—I'm not about to try to outstrip my coworkers in efforts to get compensated, life is too short for that ratfuckery.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - michaelt 3y ago
        > Meanwhile the lack of collective leverage poses a real problem for my individual compensation Aren't Silicon Valley programmers in the top 1% for total household income? People on HN give me the impression that graduates with no experience get paid six figures and it's considered poverty level.
        darby_eight 3y ago
        > People on HN give me the impression that graduates with no experience get paid six figures and it's considered poverty level. If you think anything in this thread is implying salaried tech workers are trying to pass themselves off as poor I probably can't communicate with you on any level. I apologize for whatever rhetoric I used.
    - dotancohen 3y ago
- astura 3y ago
  Unions represent employees, not candidates. I don't see how ageism in the hiring pipeline would be fixed by unions.
  - a_gnostic 3y ago
    Unions "represent" employees, and represent the union itself.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    Plenty of places the norm is for unions to be broad and represent members, whether currently employed or not. Some places they'll actively investigate employers thought to engage in actions hostile to their members.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  I think the collective action problem is a better reference than the prisoner's dilemma directly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem
- pjmlp 3y ago
  In some European countries luckly we get to enjoy them in tech. However there are plenty of workarounds employed by companies anyway.
golergka 3y ago
I'm a 35 year old software developer, and I'm painfully aware that I'll face it, sooner or later, and working my ass off to build professional network, skills and experience that will set me apart and keep me marketable. However, I don't think this ageism is unfair, at least in my case. I already feel that I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s; I'll probably be even slower on my feet and harder to adapt and learn in my 40s. If I don't acquire meaningful and provable (two different, both equally important components) experience and wisdom, then not just the perception by hiring managers, but my objective value as a professional will decline.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  In what sense? Fast picking up new things? Fast pumping out keystrokes? Fast because you're spending 14 hours instead of 8 per day? Fast trying something and then ditching it away? Fast because you don't consider the long term consequences? Fast because you can focus and you're not distracted by career, politics, and administration?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- brtkdotse 3y ago
  > I already feel that I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s; I’ve also observed this but there’s another way to frame it - you’re doing a lot less thrashing around. Instead of brute force testing 5 approaches to a problem, experience allows you to narrow it down to 1 or 2.
  - knodi 3y ago
    This. I’m able to thought experiment out many solutions and only need to implement test 1 or 2.
  - thih9 3y ago
    Note that not all experience transfers along with acquiring new skills. E.g. I haven't used any tricks for building table based HTML layouts in a while. This process happens everywhere to some extent, but it happens especially often in fields where tech advances quickly, like in IT. I guess that's the core of the issue?
CalRobert 3y ago
I know I'm ancient for saying this but.... """ led managers to prioritise digital natives for open roles, believing they are more adaptable than Gen Xers """ I'm an old millenial and there's truth to the joke that we have to help our parents AND our kids fix their printers. I have found the complete lack of fundamental computer skills in younger candidates ("what is a directory? Why would I ever need the terminal?") to be a challenge.
- baq 3y ago
  Kids in our time used to sit in front of computers, nowadays they are glued to their phones and phones have neither printers nor directories... (don't 'well, actually' please)
  - sjducb 3y ago
    You’re explaining why the kids are bad at computers… I agree.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - addicted 3y ago
    I think the “printers” nor “directories” is a red herring. The problem is that computers could be configured. There were commands and scripts that you could run to fix things. So basically there was something to troubleshoot. You learns how to figure things out. Phones today have almost no configurations, and there are no scripts or commands to run to fix things that might be broken. There’s absolutely nothing for kids to learn other than switching it off and on again.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Phones today have almost no configurations My friends’ kids are plenty hacky on their phones. Not in an 80s sense. But in the configurations, with knowing various apps and websites through which to uniquely interact with the world, et cetera.
pjmlp 3y ago
Reaching 50 and I would agree, it isn't as bad in Germany, because despite all issues, there are more positions open than people looking for jobs.
- yonisto 3y ago
  The median age in Germany is 44.9 years, that also helps somewhat.
switch007 3y ago
Notably absent from the article is that younger workers tend to be cheaper. I didn't find the article particularly insightful. And ageism isn't a new phenomenon
- ryandrake 3y ago
  How does this square with the other phenomenon we’ve all seen where new (usually younger) hires get larger compensation packages than existing employees relying on raises? If young people are actually cheaper, why do they come in making more money than the veterans already there? Not sure how both can be true.
  - nh23423fefe 3y ago
    because you are comparing different groups? new younger people are cheaper than new older people. existing employees have friction against leaving so employers can pay less to retain. retention isn't new hiring.
boffinAudio 3y ago
53 year old here, almost 40 years experience developing professional software (yes, I was one of those kids) .. all I can tell you the one bit of advice that has ALWAYS helped me through this situation, and I've faced it multiple times: Do not stop learning. Ever. Seriously. Just because you graduated with a piece of paper doesn't mean you can stop studying. This is a fatal mistake. Study the things that will make it easier and more effective for you to exchange with others. Your diploma isn't worth a THING until you've actually delivered something - a product or service - to the world, which someone, somewhere is willing to pay for. Until you've actually exchanged something with the world, you are of little use to it. That is a cold hard fact, which you can either resist or embrace. That sense of entitlement you might feel? That is what you need to work on. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
- 0xedd 3y ago
  I don't know. It feels like the digital age will die with the advent of AI. People keep casting doubt. But, that's purely out of a place of ego. When you work with those tools. When you build tools on top of those tools. When you follow the research. When you notice the rate of advancement. Then, it becomes blind faith to think AI is not the twilight of digital work for humans. Effectively no one is debugging assembly. But, I'm supposed to be convinced "someone will need to be there when things break"? Come on. There are millions in the field worldwide. What you say is true, from my own experience as well. That said, it feels like a career change is in order simply to be able to continue to provide 10 years from now (There's another 30+ years I need to work before they let me die).
  - boffinAudio 3y ago
    We had those feelings when DOS came along to replace Unix. Then we had that feeling when we had to choose Windows over OS/2. Then we had the same feeling when the Internet came along - it was going to DOOM programming everywhere. Then we had that feeling when AOL dumped its users on the Internet. Then we had that feeling when Google rose, and all the Web 2.0 came along to make everyones' dreams of a free and open Internet dystopian and decrepit. You can't use AI if you can't talk to AI, and you can't talk to AI if you don't understand things the way that AI does. AI is us. Just like the Internet was/is/will always be. In 10 years time when nobody programs any more, what will train the AI? The dog that was put there to stop us touching the computer? ;)
kreck 3y ago
Cost/price is another key aspect that is not prominently present in the article but is a key decision driver. The assumption on the employer side is that younger folks will work for lower salaries AND can be developed to the companies needs whereas someone with 10-20 years of experience is automatically “more expensive” and has to adapt. Now there is a catch: even IF an experienced candidate would work for a lower salary, e.g. if they don’t have exactly the matching skillset and need time to learn, the employer may see this as an indication/admission of a lack of competency and decide against that candidate. It’s a tough challenge and often a lot of irrationality seems to be involved.
- Cloudef 3y ago
  Boomer or wageslavery :thinking:
- itronitron 3y ago
  After decades of picking up new technical skills as needed I have confidence in my ability to learn new things so I don't waste my time learning any technology for which I don't have an immediate need. Most employers, not all, seem to primarily focus their hiring decisions on 'what do you know' versus 'what have you done'. Naturally, that negates the primary advantage that more experienced workers will have.
glimshe 3y ago
We Gen-Xers are the original digital natives. I grew up with early 8-bit computers, moving to 16-bit, 32-bit and 64-bit. My original 286/386 PCs got tinkered so much I didn't bother putting the case cover back on. My desk was a mess of serial cables, MIDI cables, speaker and headphone cables. My "Internet" was dialed through manual Hayes modem commands and later required starting Trumpet Winsock. I spent hours squeezing 10K out of my DOS low memory for games or Win 3.1. I had to partition my multiple drives, get more HDD space using Stacker and worry about FAT16/FAT32. I had to worry about 16-bit compatibility in Windows and DirectX minor versions. Now some jerk comes and tells me I can't use some slow and ridiculous browser-based software? Gimme a break. My teenager can't sneeze without checking how to do it on YouTube.
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > We Gen-Xers are the original digital natives. I had this kind of discussion with people who make good money managing digitalization projects. Under the term "digitalization" (somewhat confusingly) companies understand "make (often service) X available via the internet". Similarly "digital" means "connected to the internet" (i.e. punchcards are not digital :-) ). This is a different usage of these terms than in engineering, but this usage is rather consistent. The term "natives" in "digital natives" refers to the fact that this is the first generation for which (rather consistently available) internet was something that they grew up with from very early childhood on, i.e. they "never saw the 'old world without consistently available internet' in their life". Whether this is bad or worse for work can be discussed endlessly ... ;-) In this sense/usage, from my gut feeling I would thus argue that "digital natives" refers to "from late Gen Y on".
duggan 3y ago
These articles almost always include evidence to suggest that ageism is categorically "bad business", and every time I'm left wondering why older workers aren't taking advantage of this apparent industry blindspot to build their own powerhouse companies? Being in a series of small startups for most of my career I haven't done a lot of hiring, but I've always aimed for people with more experience than me, so they tend to be older. And man, good software developers with 20+ years of experience are _so_ good that it's hard to imagine anyone passing them up.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  The invisible hand of the market is way to "ineffective" and random for these "if so, why don't just ...".
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  From what I have seen, many workplaces these days, seem to be attempts to recreate the college experience (I went to a very rigid tech school, that did its best to recreate a work environment, so it wasn't a big deal, for me to enter the workforce). Not sure that's the best thing to do, but a lot of folks are making a lot of money, so I guess I'm just out of touch. In Ye Olde Days, most companies were run by folks in their fifties. These people (the good ones, anyway) knew that they had to have the energy, enthusiasm, and creativity of youth, but were also quite aware of the need for structure, stability and confidence that only comes with experience. Since older folks had the money and power, younger ones were forced to work with them. Now that youth has the money and power, it seems as if they don't feel the need to have older folks around.
- caseyy 3y ago
  You've sneaked in a premise that they are not starting their own companies. As a counter-example, there are many 40+ year old people were laid off in the video games industry in recent years, who have since founded their own companies. They attract good talent, offer good working conditions (often remote), and attract funding much faster than the usual new company in this space. So in that sense, they are quite robust and formidable. Another way to say this is that they are in auspicious circumstances to build powerhouses in a blind spot.
scelerat 3y ago
I chopped ten years of highly relevant experience off my resume and the response rate to job applications improved vastly.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  I have the same policy. I list maximum of ten recent years on my resume and leave the other 20 off. When a past role “ages out” I just delete it. In this environment it’s at best a neutral signal, at worst it counts against you. I took all dates and years off mine too, so you can’t guess how old I am by knowing my university graduation year.
binary132 3y ago
“Malleable” is a funny way of spelling “cheaper”.
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > “Malleable” is a funny way of spelling “cheaper”. “Malleable” rather means “has no strong opinions (often based on existing knowledge) on how things should be done, and is thus a lot more docile tp managers”.
matthewaveryusa 3y ago
"setting up a printer" Ahavi/bonjour, mDNS, multicast, cups.d settings -- oof. Setting up a printer to run well on a network is actually a very frustrating task and will fail in surprising ways.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Related: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39696419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39696419
troyvit 3y ago
Huh. I have to say as a Gen Xer that it's hard to find articles that celebrate cool stuff we do or did, or even ones that condemn us for the mistakes of our generation. Instead we get these "Let's pity the poor confused Gen Xers" bits. Meanwhile you can't throw a stone without hitting a meme that mocks millennials. Back in the day I thought GenX was all about rebellion, absurdism, and a laugh-behind-your-hand-while-you-take-the-check anti-corporate stance. That's still working for me and I'm having the time of my life learning or dying because that _is_ life. Anyway get off my lawn, I have to go ask an AI how to manage people.
- colpabar 3y ago
  In my little internet sphere, the only time I see genx mentioned is by genx themselves, and it's to complain about how easy everyone else has it, how weak everyone else is, and most of all, how badass genx was/is. It seems you're becoming the new boomers.
  - troyvit 3y ago
    Well that behavior is both stupid and contagious ;)
ryandrake 3y ago
I’m biased (Gen X) but I think Gen X has had the most interesting computer technology progression of everyone living today. We started with 8-bit computers like the C64, Apple II, Atari, moved on to 16-bit and DOS, moved on to the 32-bit triad of Windows, Mac, and Linux, on to 64-bit architectures, went from 2400 BBSs to 9600 and beyond, transitioned from dialup Internet with PPP to backbone-connected networking in college, just catching ISDN, DSL, and cable modems as young adults, now enjoying cloud services and hosted VMs, were steeped in assembly language, then BASIC, then pascal, C, C++, got to work with higher and higher level languages and frameworks, and are now witnessing a transformation to AI prompt driven development. What is Gen Z’s “technology progression” look like? iPhone6->iPhone X->iPhone 13->iPhone 15->and on and on… yawn. Development-wise it’s varying versions of Xcode and/or js frameworks, I guess, and now on to AI prompts. I feel like they missed out on so much!
ilaksh 3y ago
The interesting thing to me is that there is ageism in the title of the article and no one seems to notice. That makes me think that ageism is a deep seeded and very prevalent problem. The phrase "had to learn or die" has an implicit assumption that Gen X may have trouble adjusting to new technology.
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
No Javascript required: https://www.bbc.co.uk/worklife/article/20240320-gen-x-workplace-ageism https://www.bbc.co.uk/worklife/article/20240320-gen-x-workpl... https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=2703170581749&w=cNxiEqqAGeP4VblY5tq8lH6Sc-EwRsyi https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=2703170581749&w=cNxiEqqAGe...

65 points by BerislavLopac 3y ago

The prisoners dilemma shows that everyone is incentivized against unions. Unions however, would solve this. You just need a mechanism to stop union cronyism.

baq 3y ago
Unions should be mandatory in any organization which has an HR department, regardless of whether its internal or outsourced.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago
  This is an interesting idea, but I think you need to clarify what "HR department" means here. Because companies will just get around this by calling HR something else, and I don't think it's practical for any serious company with employees to not have someone doing HR-adjacent duties.
  - baq 3y ago
    I'd leave that for the lawmakers and courts, not an expert. Same goes for the definition of "unions". The point is HR is always acting in the interest of the company first (if you're surprised, you're probably young and work at a tech megacorp) and if the interests of employees are aligned with these (again, usually the case at tech megacorps), all is fine and dandy. Unions are needed when those interests start to diverge as individual employees have basically zero negotiating power and it's in the interest of the company to exploit that to the maximum legally achievable level - pure game theory. IOW I see the perfect union as an HR-but-for-employees department. Real unions are obviously broken by individuals exploiting unions they're part of.
    - binary132 3y ago
      Clearly we just need an “HR on the side of the union” that manages the union member adversarially. :P
andsoitis 3y ago
> You just need a mechanism to stop union cronyism How?
- ImHereToVote 3y ago
  More democracy in the leadership of the union.
darby_eight 3y ago
How are workers incentivized against unions? From my perspective there's little downside.
- cpursley 3y ago
  Do you know much about the history of unions in the US and the monsters many of them became?
  - darby_eight 3y ago
    Unions have the same issues most organizations have, the same opportunity for dysfunction that all forms of hierarchy imply. Meanwhile the lack of collective leverage poses a real problem for my individual compensation—I'm not about to try to outstrip my coworkers in efforts to get compensated, life is too short for that ratfuckery.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - michaelt 3y ago
      > Meanwhile the lack of collective leverage poses a real problem for my individual compensation Aren't Silicon Valley programmers in the top 1% for total household income? People on HN give me the impression that graduates with no experience get paid six figures and it's considered poverty level.
      - darby_eight 3y ago
        > People on HN give me the impression that graduates with no experience get paid six figures and it's considered poverty level. If you think anything in this thread is implying salaried tech workers are trying to pass themselves off as poor I probably can't communicate with you on any level. I apologize for whatever rhetoric I used.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
astura 3y ago
Unions represent employees, not candidates. I don't see how ageism in the hiring pipeline would be fixed by unions.
- a_gnostic 3y ago
  Unions "represent" employees, and represent the union itself.
- vidarh 3y ago
  Plenty of places the norm is for unions to be broad and represent members, whether currently employed or not. Some places they'll actively investigate employers thought to engage in actions hostile to their members.
hayst4ck 3y ago
I think the collective action problem is a better reference than the prisoner's dilemma directly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem
pjmlp 3y ago
In some European countries luckly we get to enjoy them in tech. However there are plenty of workarounds employed by companies anyway.

golergka 3y ago

I'm a 35 year old software developer, and I'm painfully aware that I'll face it, sooner or later, and working my ass off to build professional network, skills and experience that will set me apart and keep me marketable. However, I don't think this ageism is unfair, at least in my case. I already feel that I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s; I'll probably be even slower on my feet and harder to adapt and learn in my 40s. If I don't acquire meaningful and provable (two different, both equally important components) experience and wisdom, then not just the perception by hiring managers, but my objective value as a professional will decline.

jbverschoor 3y ago
In what sense? Fast picking up new things? Fast pumping out keystrokes? Fast because you're spending 14 hours instead of 8 per day? Fast trying something and then ditching it away? Fast because you don't consider the long term consequences? Fast because you can focus and you're not distracted by career, politics, and administration?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
brtkdotse 3y ago
> I already feel that I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s; I’ve also observed this but there’s another way to frame it - you’re doing a lot less thrashing around. Instead of brute force testing 5 approaches to a problem, experience allows you to narrow it down to 1 or 2.
- knodi 3y ago
  This. I’m able to thought experiment out many solutions and only need to implement test 1 or 2.
- thih9 3y ago
  Note that not all experience transfers along with acquiring new skills. E.g. I haven't used any tricks for building table based HTML layouts in a while. This process happens everywhere to some extent, but it happens especially often in fields where tech advances quickly, like in IT. I guess that's the core of the issue?

CalRobert 3y ago

I know I'm ancient for saying this but.... """ led managers to prioritise digital natives for open roles, believing they are more adaptable than Gen Xers """ I'm an old millenial and there's truth to the joke that we have to help our parents AND our kids fix their printers. I have found the complete lack of fundamental computer skills in younger candidates ("what is a directory? Why would I ever need the terminal?") to be a challenge.

baq 3y ago
Kids in our time used to sit in front of computers, nowadays they are glued to their phones and phones have neither printers nor directories... (don't 'well, actually' please)
- sjducb 3y ago
  You’re explaining why the kids are bad at computers… I agree.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- addicted 3y ago
  I think the “printers” nor “directories” is a red herring. The problem is that computers could be configured. There were commands and scripts that you could run to fix things. So basically there was something to troubleshoot. You learns how to figure things out. Phones today have almost no configurations, and there are no scripts or commands to run to fix things that might be broken. There’s absolutely nothing for kids to learn other than switching it off and on again.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Phones today have almost no configurations My friends’ kids are plenty hacky on their phones. Not in an 80s sense. But in the configurations, with knowing various apps and websites through which to uniquely interact with the world, et cetera.

pjmlp 3y ago

Reaching 50 and I would agree, it isn't as bad in Germany, because despite all issues, there are more positions open than people looking for jobs.

yonisto 3y ago
The median age in Germany is 44.9 years, that also helps somewhat.

switch007 3y ago

Notably absent from the article is that younger workers tend to be cheaper. I didn't find the article particularly insightful. And ageism isn't a new phenomenon

ryandrake 3y ago
How does this square with the other phenomenon we’ve all seen where new (usually younger) hires get larger compensation packages than existing employees relying on raises? If young people are actually cheaper, why do they come in making more money than the veterans already there? Not sure how both can be true.
- nh23423fefe 3y ago
  because you are comparing different groups? new younger people are cheaper than new older people. existing employees have friction against leaving so employers can pay less to retain. retention isn't new hiring.

boffinAudio 3y ago

53 year old here, almost 40 years experience developing professional software (yes, I was one of those kids) .. all I can tell you the one bit of advice that has ALWAYS helped me through this situation, and I've faced it multiple times: Do not stop learning. Ever. Seriously. Just because you graduated with a piece of paper doesn't mean you can stop studying. This is a fatal mistake. Study the things that will make it easier and more effective for you to exchange with others. Your diploma isn't worth a THING until you've actually delivered something - a product or service - to the world, which someone, somewhere is willing to pay for. Until you've actually exchanged something with the world, you are of little use to it. That is a cold hard fact, which you can either resist or embrace. That sense of entitlement you might feel? That is what you need to work on. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

0xedd 3y ago
I don't know. It feels like the digital age will die with the advent of AI. People keep casting doubt. But, that's purely out of a place of ego. When you work with those tools. When you build tools on top of those tools. When you follow the research. When you notice the rate of advancement. Then, it becomes blind faith to think AI is not the twilight of digital work for humans. Effectively no one is debugging assembly. But, I'm supposed to be convinced "someone will need to be there when things break"? Come on. There are millions in the field worldwide. What you say is true, from my own experience as well. That said, it feels like a career change is in order simply to be able to continue to provide 10 years from now (There's another 30+ years I need to work before they let me die).
- boffinAudio 3y ago
  We had those feelings when DOS came along to replace Unix. Then we had that feeling when we had to choose Windows over OS/2. Then we had the same feeling when the Internet came along - it was going to DOOM programming everywhere. Then we had that feeling when AOL dumped its users on the Internet. Then we had that feeling when Google rose, and all the Web 2.0 came along to make everyones' dreams of a free and open Internet dystopian and decrepit. You can't use AI if you can't talk to AI, and you can't talk to AI if you don't understand things the way that AI does. AI is us. Just like the Internet was/is/will always be. In 10 years time when nobody programs any more, what will train the AI? The dog that was put there to stop us touching the computer? ;)

kreck 3y ago

Cost/price is another key aspect that is not prominently present in the article but is a key decision driver. The assumption on the employer side is that younger folks will work for lower salaries AND can be developed to the companies needs whereas someone with 10-20 years of experience is automatically “more expensive” and has to adapt. Now there is a catch: even IF an experienced candidate would work for a lower salary, e.g. if they don’t have exactly the matching skillset and need time to learn, the employer may see this as an indication/admission of a lack of competency and decide against that candidate. It’s a tough challenge and often a lot of irrationality seems to be involved.

Cloudef 3y ago
Boomer or wageslavery :thinking:
itronitron 3y ago
After decades of picking up new technical skills as needed I have confidence in my ability to learn new things so I don't waste my time learning any technology for which I don't have an immediate need. Most employers, not all, seem to primarily focus their hiring decisions on 'what do you know' versus 'what have you done'. Naturally, that negates the primary advantage that more experienced workers will have.

glimshe 3y ago

We Gen-Xers are the original digital natives. I grew up with early 8-bit computers, moving to 16-bit, 32-bit and 64-bit. My original 286/386 PCs got tinkered so much I didn't bother putting the case cover back on. My desk was a mess of serial cables, MIDI cables, speaker and headphone cables. My "Internet" was dialed through manual Hayes modem commands and later required starting Trumpet Winsock. I spent hours squeezing 10K out of my DOS low memory for games or Win 3.1. I had to partition my multiple drives, get more HDD space using Stacker and worry about FAT16/FAT32. I had to worry about 16-bit compatibility in Windows and DirectX minor versions. Now some jerk comes and tells me I can't use some slow and ridiculous browser-based software? Gimme a break. My teenager can't sneeze without checking how to do it on YouTube.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> We Gen-Xers are the original digital natives. I had this kind of discussion with people who make good money managing digitalization projects. Under the term "digitalization" (somewhat confusingly) companies understand "make (often service) X available via the internet". Similarly "digital" means "connected to the internet" (i.e. punchcards are not digital :-) ). This is a different usage of these terms than in engineering, but this usage is rather consistent. The term "natives" in "digital natives" refers to the fact that this is the first generation for which (rather consistently available) internet was something that they grew up with from very early childhood on, i.e. they "never saw the 'old world without consistently available internet' in their life". Whether this is bad or worse for work can be discussed endlessly ... ;-) In this sense/usage, from my gut feeling I would thus argue that "digital natives" refers to "from late Gen Y on".

duggan 3y ago

These articles almost always include evidence to suggest that ageism is categorically "bad business", and every time I'm left wondering why older workers aren't taking advantage of this apparent industry blindspot to build their own powerhouse companies? Being in a series of small startups for most of my career I haven't done a lot of hiring, but I've always aimed for people with more experience than me, so they tend to be older. And man, good software developers with 20+ years of experience are _so_ good that it's hard to imagine anyone passing them up.

rightbyte 3y ago
The invisible hand of the market is way to "ineffective" and random for these "if so, why don't just ...".
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
From what I have seen, many workplaces these days, seem to be attempts to recreate the college experience (I went to a very rigid tech school, that did its best to recreate a work environment, so it wasn't a big deal, for me to enter the workforce). Not sure that's the best thing to do, but a lot of folks are making a lot of money, so I guess I'm just out of touch. In Ye Olde Days, most companies were run by folks in their fifties. These people (the good ones, anyway) knew that they had to have the energy, enthusiasm, and creativity of youth, but were also quite aware of the need for structure, stability and confidence that only comes with experience. Since older folks had the money and power, younger ones were forced to work with them. Now that youth has the money and power, it seems as if they don't feel the need to have older folks around.
caseyy 3y ago
You've sneaked in a premise that they are not starting their own companies. As a counter-example, there are many 40+ year old people were laid off in the video games industry in recent years, who have since founded their own companies. They attract good talent, offer good working conditions (often remote), and attract funding much faster than the usual new company in this space. So in that sense, they are quite robust and formidable. Another way to say this is that they are in auspicious circumstances to build powerhouses in a blind spot.

scelerat 3y ago

I chopped ten years of highly relevant experience off my resume and the response rate to job applications improved vastly.

ryandrake 3y ago
I have the same policy. I list maximum of ten recent years on my resume and leave the other 20 off. When a past role “ages out” I just delete it. In this environment it’s at best a neutral signal, at worst it counts against you. I took all dates and years off mine too, so you can’t guess how old I am by knowing my university graduation year.

binary132 3y ago

“Malleable” is a funny way of spelling “cheaper”.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> “Malleable” is a funny way of spelling “cheaper”. “Malleable” rather means “has no strong opinions (often based on existing knowledge) on how things should be done, and is thus a lot more docile tp managers”.

matthewaveryusa 3y ago

"setting up a printer" Ahavi/bonjour, mDNS, multicast, cups.d settings -- oof. Setting up a printer to run well on a network is actually a very frustrating task and will fail in surprising ways.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Related: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39696419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39696419

troyvit 3y ago

Huh. I have to say as a Gen Xer that it's hard to find articles that celebrate cool stuff we do or did, or even ones that condemn us for the mistakes of our generation. Instead we get these "Let's pity the poor confused Gen Xers" bits. Meanwhile you can't throw a stone without hitting a meme that mocks millennials. Back in the day I thought GenX was all about rebellion, absurdism, and a laugh-behind-your-hand-while-you-take-the-check anti-corporate stance. That's still working for me and I'm having the time of my life learning or dying because that _is_ life. Anyway get off my lawn, I have to go ask an AI how to manage people.

colpabar 3y ago
In my little internet sphere, the only time I see genx mentioned is by genx themselves, and it's to complain about how easy everyone else has it, how weak everyone else is, and most of all, how badass genx was/is. It seems you're becoming the new boomers.
- troyvit 3y ago
  Well that behavior is both stupid and contagious ;)

ryandrake 3y ago

I’m biased (Gen X) but I think Gen X has had the most interesting computer technology progression of everyone living today. We started with 8-bit computers like the C64, Apple II, Atari, moved on to 16-bit and DOS, moved on to the 32-bit triad of Windows, Mac, and Linux, on to 64-bit architectures, went from 2400 BBSs to 9600 and beyond, transitioned from dialup Internet with PPP to backbone-connected networking in college, just catching ISDN, DSL, and cable modems as young adults, now enjoying cloud services and hosted VMs, were steeped in assembly language, then BASIC, then pascal, C, C++, got to work with higher and higher level languages and frameworks, and are now witnessing a transformation to AI prompt driven development. What is Gen Z’s “technology progression” look like? iPhone6->iPhone X->iPhone 13->iPhone 15->and on and on… yawn. Development-wise it’s varying versions of Xcode and/or js frameworks, I guess, and now on to AI prompts. I feel like they missed out on so much!

ilaksh 3y ago

The interesting thing to me is that there is ageism in the title of the article and no one seems to notice. That makes me think that ageism is a deep seeded and very prevalent problem. The phrase "had to learn or die" has an implicit assumption that Gen X may have trouble adjusting to new technology.

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

No Javascript required: https://www.bbc.co.uk/worklife/article/20240320-gen-x-workplace-ageism https://www.bbc.co.uk/worklife/article/20240320-gen-x-workpl... https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=2703170581749&w=cNxiEqqAGeP4VblY5tq8lH6Sc-EwRsyi https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=2703170581749&w=cNxiEqqAGe...